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March 23, 2023 Update: See below for Leigh’s responses via email. I may or may not give some future response to Leigh’s responses

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Honor and respect to Leigh Brasington, not only for his extensive teachings on the jhanas, but for all the thoughts, teachings and practices surrounding the Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) during the February 11, 2023 event Gradual Training on the Buddhist Path with Leigh Brasington: part 1 and part 2.

That day I left early during the second part before my statements about “psychic powers” were addressed which is OK because it seems a bulk of the audience questions and comments then came around these topics which I’m interested in. (The edited clip above from this daylong event includes these).

I, like Leigh, have little to no traditional formal credentials on these matters and agree it is better not to get too sidetracked on these so-called “psychic powers.” I also agree the miracle of instruction outweighs “psychic powers” yet I here below share some thoughts and musing (in the form of questions) that arose to the way Leigh currently sees these “powers” and what arose when listening to the audience questions and answers.

Maybe some of these powers are literal. Maybe they aren’t. Maybe it’s a mix, and yes maybe they’re something else entirely. Since I can’t prove Leigh’s takes aren’t wrong in any ways or forms it would not be wise to say they are inaccurate in any ways or forms. Much encouragement actually for science and meditators to investigate ESP and lucid dreaming — two of Leigh’s interpretations that I find interesting — as long as doing so leads toward cessation of dukkha not away from it. At the end of the day it seems kind of
a waste of time, energy and wisdom to believe or disbelieve psychic powers

Before reading my questions it may be helpful to check out:

• Supranormal (or so-called Psychic Powers) in the (Buddhist) Pali Cannon which includes a long list of suttas where these are mentioned

Supranormal (or so-called Psychic Powers) in the (Buddhist) Pali Cannon

• my 7-part series Studying And Practicing With “The Iddhipāda-Vibhaṅga Sutta An Analysis Of The Bases Of Power” but in particular part 6: “Psychic Powers,” Practice Combinations And Miscellany where I give some of my own (unique) take on these of which I continue to welcome criticism, discussion and feedback

Studying And Practicing With “The Iddhipāda-Vibhaṅga Sutta — An Analysis Of The Bases Of Power”: “Psychic Powers,” Practice Combinations And Miscellany (6 of 7)

• “Wisdom Snippets: The Murkiness, Blocks And Obstructions Of Past Life Discernment”
• “Why and Why Not to Question/Inquire” which hopefully is helpful when raising questions especially in public like this

Why and Why Not to Question/Inquire

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Here are the points I briefly raised to Leigh in the start of the clip above during the first part of the event hopefully made more clearly now:

• Reports of modern practitioners preforming acts of psychic powers
• “Powers” laughed off in academia and academic careers not really allowed to explore these as credible possibilities
• My grandmother when she died could barely recognize the time she found at her end with smart phones since she started growing up with no electricity, cars, indoor plumbing, etc. Such rapid change was only within around a 100 years. How much has life changed in thousands of years?
• Pursuit of power and psychic power can also tempt and/or lead one astray from the path of liberation, nibbana, arhatship like some say happened with Devadatta
• Many in very credible places of our current society know the importance of, highly value and relate many of the Buddha’s teachings but seem to ignore, dismiss, disregard, gloss over, and lambast other teachings of the Buddha

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Finally, my questions in bullet points surrounding the above video clip, which can be taken as rhetorical and/or traditional questions seeking an answer, and Leigh’s email responses in quote formatting:

• If I’m getting this right Leigh mentioned during the portion of recalling past lives on the night of the Buddha’s awakening involved one past life recall detail every 1/56th of a second.

No, every 1/7 of a second. And in the 1/7 of a second he recalled 8 different items. So each item got 1/56 of a second.

• How many mind moments are, or can be contained within a second according to Abhidhamma teachings? [Maybe I ought to do more research to answer this question myself]

The Abhidhamma is like taking your bicycle apart, laying all the pieces, and looking for what it’s like to coast down a hill effortlessly. I don’t trust the Abhidhamma for Anything.

But according to Ayya Khema, it says 1000 mind-moments in the blink of an eye (which is about 1/5 of a second). So 5000 mind-moments a second. Modern neuroscience says around 40 a second.

• The night of the Buddha’s awakening was a time when there was a going beyond human, or at least other-than-human as later exclaimed (if I’m remembering right). How accurate or inaccurate might any of our guesses, assessments, understandings and commentaries be since we’re viewing this from a post-modern 21st Century Western scholastic human perspective?

The remembering past lives takes place 4 to 8 hours before awakening. The awakening would be what is other-than-human.

As for how accurate our guesses are – who knows? Only a fully awakened one and we seem to be in very short supply.

• (How) could the terms/notions of Servitor and Eidolon apply to “having been one he [a monk] becomes many; having been many he becomes one”?

In my opinion – not at all. That’s just another lucid dream trick.

• How much can, or does doubt hinder development of these “powers”?

Probably totally.

• What would be the psychological fall out and/or psychological implications for some individuals if any of these “powers” were actually preformed or witnessed? After beholding such “powers” how much then would such individuals let go of, or continue clinging to what they consider is and isn’t possible around this subject — perhaps even clinging tighter to defend their views because of the amount of time, money, energy, friends and social structures involved?

No idea. But the Buddha definitely is said to have forbade the monks from exhibiting any of these powers to lay people. Now was that just a convenient way to explain away the fact that no lay person ever saw a monk performing any of these powers? Was that added later. There certainly are suttas where the Buddha expresses disdain for these powers (e.g. DN 11, AN 3.60).

• How much, and to what extent do self-esteem, lack of self-esteem, failure, success, and other comparisons come into play when one considers developing, or not developing these powers along the path of awakening?

The less powerful one feels, the more likely one would want to resort to these powers to make up for that feeling of powerlessness.

• What all are and aren’t psychological defense mechanisms when attempting to interpret these “powers” with what one currently understands as possible and not possible within today’s consensus reality? How much could what one thought was real and/or was led to believe was real then be upended and cause (temporary) psychological distress when one finds out at least part of the reality they once knew was not real?

Hey, I don’t want to write psych book as an answer to your questions!

• How much, and to what extent do self-esteem, lack of self-esteem, failure, success, and other comparisons come into play when one considers developing, or not developing these powers along the path of awakening?

A lot. But it would depend on how tightly one was clinging to whatever was upended.

• For Leigh’s quote: “Do look at it in the mythic language of the time to situate human experience in a much bigger picture than your own self-interested existence”: Since one wasn’t there how does one know for certain what was or was not myth in ancient times?

Physics

• For Leigh’s quote: “Do look at it in the mythic language of the time to situate human experience in a much bigger picture than your own self-interested existence”: Do developing these “powers” have to (always) be considered in one’s own self-interest (especially in the light of the Buddha saying of the related Iddhipāda, “this is how these four bases of power, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit”)?

No – they don’t have to be. But they probably are going to be unless one is fully awakened (and then highly unlikely one would bother pursuing these powers).

• Could (comic book movies and/or) the general lack of consciousness (development) among current humanity (have) contribute(d) to any causes and/or conditions for Western humanity’s status quo perception that these “powers” don’t really exist and are not possible?

Of course. But more likely would be an understanding of the limitation imposed on the physical world (this is called physics, etc).

• In regard to comments about Devadatta, and excuse the lack of research, but didn’t the “evilest man in the world” Aleister Crowley (also) practice Dhyana or types of intense concentration practices?

I don’t know. But practicing concentration is said to lead to these powers. But I have seen no evidence it does – other than enhancing ESP (whatever ESP actually is).

• (Why) would the Buddha engage in falsehoods, or misrepresentations, or (gross) inaccuracies, i.e. mention “psychic powers” to impress King Ajātasattu? What other instances in the suttas are there of the Buddha doing this?

Check out Ud 2.1. Check out Kisagotami (first story in the introduction).

• Is it possible that instances of these “powers” could have been removed from some versions of the Pali cannon instead of, or in addition to mentions of these “powers” being a later insertion into some versions of the Pali cannon? Why or why not?

Of course. We have no idea what really went on 2500 years ago.

But it is certain that suttas were modified and created showing the Buddha as a more and more powerful being as time went on. This was “needed” for early Buddhism to compete with all the other many Indian religions at that time. If your guy was the real deal, then he had to have walked on water, flown thru the air, etc. So it makes far more sense to assume insertions rather than deletions.

• Is there any requirement and/or importance for having to believe or not believe in any of these “powers” [in order for this topic to be in accordance with one’s current understanding of what one perceives as (consensus) reality?]

There is no single consensus reality! Look at all the realities of the various political factions and religious factions in the US today! So if you want to believe in the scientific consensus reality, you will need to question these claims very seriously. If you are a literalist Christian, you have to believe Jesus walked on water. If you are a literalist Buddhist, you have to believe all these claims. But if you really want to know what the Buddha taught, you can ignore all that and just do the practices he recommends over and over again.

• (For Leigh’s last comment/response) how does getting from point a to point a twice by going twice around the world prove the Earth is any particular shape or lack of shape?

You only have to go once around the world to do that. And while you are doing it, there are tons of other things you will see that confirm the earth is sphere. Did you know that a new moon seen from the equator has the ‘horns’ pointing straight up? Not like they are pointing to the side in temperate climates. [you are not a flat earther are you? I hope not!]

• (Ultimately,) do conclusions need to be drawn about these things?

No.

And about flat earth I then replied to Leigh:

At the moment I lean more as a earth-shape agnostic and look at that whole thing as more distraction and division than anything else. Whatever shape this earth is and/or isn’t is OK with me now

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Along similar lines, how much do collective belief systems play into the efficacy of certain psychic power development or lack thereof?

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Leigh mentioned this sutta with a brahmin about demonstration of psychic power, a demonstration of revealing, and a demonstration of instruction:

Then Saṅgārava the brahmin went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

“Master Gotama, we who are called brahmins make sacrifices and encourage others to make sacrifices. Now, Master Gotama, both of these people—the one who sacrifices and the one who encourages others to sacrifice—are doing good for many people on account of that sacrifice. But, Master Gotama, when someone has gone forth from the lay life to homelessness, they tame, calm, and extinguish themselves alone. That being so, they are doing good for just one person on account of that going forth.”

“Well then, brahmin, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, brahmin? A Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed. He says, ‘Come, this is the path, this is the practice. Practicing like this, I realized the supreme culmination of the spiritual life with my own insight, and I make it known. Please, all of you, practice like this, and you too will realize the supreme culmination of the spiritual life, and will live having realized it with your own insight.’ So the teacher teaches Dhamma, and others practice accordingly, in their hundreds and thousands, and hundreds of thousands.

What do you think, brahmin? This being so, are they doing good for just one person or for many people on account of going forth?”

“This being so, Master Gotama, they are doing good for many people on account of going forth.”

When he said this, Venerable Ānanda said to Saṅgārava, “Brahmin, which of these two practices do you believe has fewer requirements and undertakings, yet is more fruitful and beneficial?”

Saṅgārava said to Ānanda, “Those such as the masters Gotama and Ānanda are honored and praised by me!”

For a second time, Ānanda said to Saṅgārava, “Brahmin, I didn’t ask you who you honor and praise. I asked you which of these two practices do you believe has fewer requirements and undertakings, yet is more fruitful and beneficial?”

For a second time Saṅgārava said to Ānanda, “Those such as the masters Gotama and Ānanda are honored and praised by me!”

For a third time, Ānanda said to Saṅgārava, “Brahmin, I didn’t ask you who you honor and praise. I asked you which of these two practices do you believe has fewer requirements and undertakings, yet is more fruitful and beneficial?”

For a third time Saṅgārava said to Ānanda, “Those such as the masters Gotama and Ānanda are honored and praised by me!”

Then it occurred to the Buddha, “Though Ānanda asked him a sensible question three times, Saṅgārava falters without answering. Why don’t I give him a way out?”

So the Buddha said to Saṅgārava, “Brahmin, what came up in the conversation among the king’s retinue today, sitting together in the royal compound?”

“Master Gotama, this came up: ‘Formerly, it seems, there were fewer mendicants, but more of them displayed superhuman demonstrations of psychic power; while these days, there are more mendicants, but fewer display superhuman demonstrations of psychic power.’ This is what came up in the conversation among the king’s retinue today, while sitting together in the royal compound.”

“Brahmin, there are three kinds of demonstration. What three? A demonstration of psychic power, a demonstration of revealing, and a demonstration of instruction.

And what is the demonstration of psychic power? It’s when someone wields the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; appearing and disappearing; going unimpeded through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. They control the body as far as the Brahmā realm. This is called the demonstration of psychic power.

And what is the demonstration of revealing? In one case, someone reveals by means of a sign: ‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’ And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

In another case, someone reveals after hearing it from humans or non-humans or deities: ‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’ And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

In another case, someone reveals by hearing the sound of thought spreading as someone thinks and considers: ‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’ And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

In another case, someone comprehends the mind of a person who has attained the immersion that’s free of placing the mind and keeping it connected. They understand: ‘Judging by the way this person’s intentions are directed, immediately after this mind state, they’ll think this thought.’ And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise. This is called the demonstration of revealing.

And what is a demonstration of instruction? It’s when someone instructs others like this: ‘Think like this, not like that. Focus your mind like this, not like that. Give up this, and live having achieved that.’ This is called a demonstration of instruction.

These are the three kinds of demonstration. Of these three kinds of demonstration, which do you consider to be the finest?”

“Regarding this, Master Gotama, a demonstration of psychic power is experienced only by the one who performs it, occurring only to them. This seems to me like a magic trick.

And the demonstration where someone reveals something by means of a sign, or after hearing it from humans, non-humans, or deities, or by hearing the sound of thought spreading as someone thinks and considers, or by comprehending the mind of another person, is also experienced only by the one who performs it, occurring only to them. This also seems to me like a magic trick.

But as to the demonstration where someone instructs others: ‘Think like this, not like that. Focus your mind like this, not like that. Give up this, and live having achieved that.’ I prefer this demonstration, Master Gotama. It’s the finest of the three kinds of demonstration.

It’s incredible, Master Gotama, it’s amazing, how well this was said by Master Gotama. We regard Master Gotama as someone who possesses these three kinds of demonstration. For Master Gotama wields the many kinds of psychic power … controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm. And Master Gotama comprehends the mind of another person who has attained the immersion that is free of placing the mind and keeping it connected. He understands: ‘Judging by the way this person’s intentions are directed, immediately after this mind state they’ll think this thought.’ And Master Gotama instructs others like this: ‘Think like this, not like that. Focus your mind like this, not like that. Give up this, and live having achieved that.’”

“Your words are clearly invasive and intrusive, brahmin. Nevertheless, I will answer you. For I do wield the many kinds of psychic power … controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm. And I do comprehend the mind of another person who has attained the immersion that is free of placing the mind and keeping it connected. I understand: ‘Judging by the way this person’s intentions are directed, immediately after this mind state they’ll think this thought.’ And I do instruct others like this: ‘Think like this, not like that. Focus your mind like this, not like that. Give up this, and live having achieved that.’”

“But Master Gotama, is there even one other mendicant who possesses these three kinds of demonstration, apart from Master Gotama?”

“There’s not just one hundred mendicants, brahmin, who possess these three kinds of demonstration, nor two, three, four, or five hundred, but many more than that.”

“But where are these mendicants now staying?”

“Right here, brahmin, in this Saṅgha of mendicants.”

“Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent! As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, Master Gotama has made the teaching clear in many ways. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha. From this day forth, may Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

Numbered Discourses 3.60
6. Brahmins
With Saṅgārava

Continue reading “Questions And Points Put To Leigh Brasington On “Psychic Powers” In The Suttas”