Listen to the full unedited version of this talk with or without the Wisdom App: https://join.wisdom.audio/kohr
While this August 5th edited live event is quite listenable there’s still a little bit of hissing background noise remaining. The portion about hunting and vegetarianism are also edited out although the wisdom app call-in is included. (I forgot to mention I’m not a strict vegetarian as I occasionally eat some cheeses with animal rennet and take some supplements with gelatin capsules. I did not go into the many more complex areas and nuances around food to consider such as environments, situations, cultures, time periods, etc., before drawing conclusions on this matter.)
The event description:
What does it mean to engage in non-harming? How does one practice this and why? Beautiful? Yes! How?
Three main categorial approaches:
- What is harm
- Importance
- A beautiful training
Original notes:
Story: “how many times do you have to have the crap kicked out of you to feel love?” Then my example as acting out as a kid
: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted
: physical or mental damage : INJURY
: MISCHIEF, HURT
: physical or mental damage or injury : something that causes someone or something to be hurt, broken, made less valuable or successful, etc.
: to cause hurt, injury, or damage to (someone or something) : to cause harm to (someone or something
Various dictionary definitions of harm
- like everything else this starts in the mind
- lack vagina crown, C-section enlist harm from others, grateful for surgery though
- how can men and women play less harmful games with each other? look at the content of many songs and media and folks around us
Areas of harm
obvious (to me):
- (bodily) action [I forgot to elaborate on the Three Stooges]
- emotion
not obvious (to me):
- thought
- speech
in between obvious and not obvious:
- psychological
- psychic
- if all refrained from taking human life for one day
- Theory: satisfaction of being conscious of decay /erosion /extinguishment not implying harm though I wonder if this is so unconscious that for some it takes the extreme of harm to realize (at times). [Also, to clarify around the cycles of decay and renewal I mean more of an entering into and remaining in more of a continually conscious/aware state of the cycles of decay and renewal.]
- hunting
- young girl and toad
- foolish false power of harming. how can one not be emasculated by non-harming? refraining and restraint actually requires and displays more power and self mastery. martial arts.
- even if there were no repercussions and consequences for killing how would it solve any of anybody’s issues or anyone else’s?
- what is the intent for harming? How do some people get sexually aroused and/or use harm to compensate for sexual shortcomings?
- righteousness and if those who say a higher power justifies harm how can this be proven and demonstrated other than shows of force that still can’t destroy truth?
- how much can one harm by not walking away from certain people and situations? what is the strength needed for this like compared to harming someone physically? are there the equivalent of gyms and combat training for this? or just fools?
- [Not mentioned: with all his powers and accomplishments the Buddha was not able to stop war]
- truth can set you free. it can also destroy and not be destroyed itself so non-harm tempers its destructive side in particular the destruction that’s (potentially) unskillful, unwise, unwholesome
Speech
- taking on what other say as who we are
- hate speech term alternative
- self-harm and self-hate
- cycles of victim hating victimizer and vice versa
- bridging hate to loving kindness, bodily, verbal, mental
- feels harmful
- often find out after saying something that it has been received as harmful. so is what was said harmful in itself or was it interpreted as harmful? either way finding out and taking reasonable measures to resolve not to harm in this way with this being again
- brother and I raising our voices at each other and impressed my dad stepped in and I forget what he said to him but said I need to think before I speak. I immediately agreed
- how subtle can this go?
- Dharmic Strategies For Empaths
Importance
- 6th line of Dhammapada: ill-will can never overcome ill-will only non-ill will can. this is an ancient and eternal law
- ethical base of non-harm
- opposite
- training instead of just thou shall not
- insects
- meat?
A Beautiful Training
- beautiful?
- even more beautiful to inspire others of non-harming
- flowers
- difficult to be in conflict if finding something beautiful
- gift of safety
Title of this event inspired by the online retreat Dharmic Pleasure and Karmic Beauty with Gil Fronsdal
Audio: The Beautiful Training (Precept) Of Non-harming
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Four ways elucidated in the sutta below:
- painful now and results in future pain
- painful now and results in future pleasure
- pleasant now and results in future pain
- pleasant now and results in future pleasure
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants, “Mendicants!”
“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“Mendicants, sentient beings typically have the wish, desire, and hope: ‘Oh, if only unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things would decrease, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things would increase!’ But exactly the opposite happens to them. What do you take to be the reason for this?”
“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. He is our guide and our refuge. Sir, may the Buddha himself please clarify the meaning of this. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”
“Well then, mendicants, listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”
“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t know what practices they should cultivate and foster, and what practices they shouldn’t cultivate and foster. So they cultivate and foster practices they shouldn’t, and don’t cultivate and foster practices they should. When they do so, unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things increase, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things decrease. Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who doesn’t know.
But an educated noble disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They know what practices they should cultivate and foster, and what practices they shouldn’t cultivate and foster. So they cultivate and foster practices they should, and don’t cultivate and foster practices they shouldn’t. When they do so, unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things decrease, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things increase. Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who knows.
Mendicants, there are these four ways of taking up practices. What four? There is a way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain. There is a way of taking up practices that is pleasant now but results in future pain. There is a way of taking up practices that is painful now but results in future pleasure. There is a way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure.
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain, an ignoramus, without knowing this, doesn’t truly understand: ‘This is the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain.’ So instead of avoiding that practice, they cultivate it. When they do so, unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things increase, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things decrease. Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who doesn’t know.
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pain, an ignoramus … cultivates it … and disagreeable things increase …
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pleasure, an ignoramus … doesn’t cultivate it … and disagreeable things increase …
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure, an ignoramus … doesn’t cultivate it … and disagreeable things increase … Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who doesn’t know.
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain, a wise person, knowing this, truly understands: ‘This is the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain.’ So instead of cultivating that practice, they avoid it. When they do so, unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things decrease, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things increase. Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who knows.
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pain, a wise person … doesn’t cultivate it … and agreeable things increase …
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pleasure, a wise person … cultivates it … and agreeable things increase …
When it comes to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure, a wise person, knowing this, truly understands: ‘This is the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure.’ So instead of avoiding that practice, they cultivate it. When they do so, unlikable, undesirable, and disagreeable things decrease, and likable, desirable, and agreeable things increase. Why is that? Because that’s what it’s like for someone who knows.
And what is the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain? It’s when someone in pain and sadness kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view. Because of these things they experience pain and sadness. And when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. This is called the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain.
And what is the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now but results in future pain? It’s when someone with pleasure and happiness kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view. Because of these things they experience pleasure and happiness. But when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. This is called the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now but results in future pain.
And what is the way of taking up practices that is painful now but results in future pleasure? It’s when someone in pain and sadness doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, or commit sexual misconduct. They don’t use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, with right view. Because of these things they experience pain and sadness. But when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. This is called the way of taking up practices that is painful now but results in future pleasure.
And what is the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure? It’s when someone with pleasure and happiness doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, or commit sexual misconduct. They don’t use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, with right view. Because of these things they experience pleasure and happiness. And when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. This is called the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure. These are the four ways of taking up practices.
Suppose there was some bitter gourd mixed with poison. Then a man would come along who wants to live and doesn’t want to die, who wants to be happy and recoils from pain. They’d say to him: ‘Here, mister, this is bitter gourd mixed with poison. Drink it if you like. If you drink it, the color, aroma, and flavor will be unappetizing, and it will result in death or deadly pain.’ He wouldn’t reject it. Without reflection, he’d drink it. The color, aroma, and flavor would be unappetizing, and it would result in death or deadly pain. This is comparable to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pain, I say.
Suppose there was a bronze cup of beverage that had a nice color, aroma, and flavor. But it was mixed with poison. Then a man would come along who wants to live and doesn’t want to die, who wants to be happy and recoils from pain. They’d say to him: ‘Here, mister, this bronze cup of beverage has a nice color, aroma, and flavor. But it’s mixed with poison. Drink it if you like. If you drink it, the color, aroma, and flavor will be appetizing, but it will result in death or deadly pain.’ He wouldn’t reject it. Without reflection, he’d drink it. The color, aroma, and flavor would be appetizing, but it would result in death or deadly pain. This is comparable to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pain, I say.
Suppose there was some fermented urine mixed with different medicines. Then a man with jaundice would come along. They’d say to him: ‘Here, mister, this is fermented urine mixed with different medicines. Drink it if you like. If you drink it, the color, aroma, and flavor will be unappetizing, but after drinking it you will be happy.’ He wouldn’t reject it. After appraisal, he’d drink it. The color, aroma, and flavor would be unappetizing, but after drinking it he would be happy. This is comparable to the way of taking up practices that is painful now and results in future pleasure, I say.
Suppose there was some curds, honey, ghee, and molasses all mixed together. Then a man with dysentery would come along. They’d say to him: ‘Here, mister, this is curds, honey, ghee, and molasses all mixed together. Drink it if you like. If you drink it, the color, aroma, and flavor will be appetizing, and after drinking it you will be happy.’ He wouldn’t reject it. After appraisal, he’d drink it. The color, aroma, and flavor would be appetizing, and after drinking it he would be happy. This is comparable to the way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure, I say.
It’s like the time after the rainy season when the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates. In the same way, this way of taking up practices that is pleasant now and results in future pleasure dispels the doctrines of the various other ascetics and brahmins as it shines and glows and radiates.”
That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the mendicants were happy with what the Buddha said.
Middle Discourses 46
The Great Discourse on Taking Up Practices
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