[Note: Randi of https://toveje.dk uses her own terminology so it mixes around the standard, currently established notion of the three realm classification* of desire realm, form realm and formless realm. However, plenty still meshes and aligns with this standardization too. She brings her direct experience to bear on this sutta of which a few translations are below]
See our similar past chats: https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/12/podcast-trauma-teachings-and-textual-interpretations-buddhism-and-beyond-with-randi-green-part-1/ and https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/13/podcast-the-noble-truth-of-dukkha-buddhism-and-beyond-with-randi-green-part-2/
Ai assistance basically summaries our chat thus:
Randi Green and I conduct an in-depth study of the Aṅguttara Nikāya 8.64, a discourse from the Pali Canon. In this session, Green explores the concept of progressing contact beyond the human realm, delving into the sutta’s teachings on transcending ordinary sensory experiences and understanding higher states of consciousness. The discussion emphasizes practical applications of the sutta’s insights, aiming to guide practitioners in deepening their meditation practice and expanding their awareness beyond conventional human experiences.
Key Themes & Discussion Points:
1. Introduction to the Sutta (AN 8.64)
- Some context for the sutta.
- The text describes how the Bodhisattva (pre-awakened Buddha) first perceived light but not forms, then progressed through eight stages of realization.
- Discussion of different translations and interpretations, particularly the distinction between “light” and “auras.”
2. The Eight Stages of Realization
The Buddha’s progression in spiritual perception unfolds as follows:
- Perceiving light but not seeing forms.
- Perceiving both light and forms but not engaging with deities (or higher beings).
- Engaging with deities but not knowing their realm or classification.
- Determining the realm or classification of the deities.
- Understanding the past karma that led to their birth in that realm.
- Determining their sources of pleasure, pain, and sustenance.
- Understanding their lifespan.
- Recognizing whether he had lived among them in past existences.
3. Deities, Realms & the Nature of Consciousness
- Discussion on how the Buddha classified realms, distinguishing between rupa (form) and arupa (formless) realms.
- Debate on terminology: “deities,” “divine beings,” or “entities”—what best describes these beings?
- Tibetan Buddhism’s perspective: Randy shares insights from Tibetan esoteric teachings, particularly the Kalachakra system and nature spirits.
- The role of karma in rebirth: How past actions determine where beings are reborn.
4. The Nature of Divine Realms & Food in Higher Realms
- How higher beings “consume” sustenance—is it physical food or subtle energy?
- The concept of beings feeding on bliss, energy, or emotion, rather than material substances.
- Correspondences between jhana (meditative absorption) and different realms.
5. The Buddha’s Awakening & Past Lives
- The Buddha’s night of awakening involved recalling past lives and understanding the karmic consequences of actions.
- Question: Did the Buddha previously exist in higher realms before being reborn as a human?
- Exploration of whether contact with higher beings implies past-life connections.
6. Scholarly vs. Experiential Approaches to Texts
- Discussion on Buddhist councils and how scriptures evolved over time.
- Debate over commentaries & sub-commentaries—are they helpful interpretations or later distortions of original teachings?
- The importance of direct experience over relying solely on texts.
7. The Importance of the Number Eight
- The Eightfold Path, eight jhanas (meditative states), and the eight levels of realization in the sutta.
- The symbolism of the number eight in Buddhist philosophy.
8. Conclusion & Next Steps
- Reflections on how this sutta serves as a roadmap for contemplation.
- Recognizing the progressive nature of spiritual insight.
- Teaser for the next episode, which will explore a Zen story in contrast to this structured Buddhist discourse.
Final Thoughts:
The episode combines Buddhist textual analysis with esoteric insights, exploring how the sutta relates to personal experiences, meditative practice, and broader spiritual traditions. The discussion provides an in-depth, nuanced examination of consciousness, karma, and awakening.
*In Buddhist cosmology, the realms below the human realm are part of the Kāmadhātu (Desire Realm). These include:
1. Preta (Hungry Ghost) Realm – Beings in this realm are driven by extreme craving and suffering.
2. Naraka (Hell) Realms – Beings here experience intense suffering due to past negative karma.
Both of these realms, like the human and animal realms, belong to the Desire Realm (Kāmadhātu) because beings there still experience sensory desires and suffering based on attachment and aversion.
Only the Rūpadhātu (Form Realm) and Arūpadhātu (Formless Realm) are above the human realm and involve progressively subtler states of existence.
And “see”/ listen to “Part 2” on my other site innerskilled.com “The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story Reading & Commentary With Randi Green” • The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story … (which is actually a stand-alone and not really related)]
Numbered Discourses 8.64
7. Earthquakes
At Gayā Head — Gayāsīsasutta by Bhikkhu Sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/sujato
At one time the Buddha was staying near Gayā on Gayā Head. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:
“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still not awake but intent on awakening—I perceived light but did not see forms.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to both perceive light and see forms? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time, living diligent, keen, and resolute, I perceived light and saw forms. But I didn’t associate with those deities, converse, or engage in discussion.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion. But I didn’t know which order of gods those deities came from.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion; and find out which orders of gods those deities come from? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities … And I found out which orders of gods those deities came from. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here.
So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain.
So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain. But I didn’t know that these deities have a lifespan of such a length.
So after some time … I found out that these deities have a lifespan of such a length. But I didn’t know whether or not I had previously lived together with those deities.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion; and find out which orders of gods those deities come from; and what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here; and what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain; and that these deities have a lifespan of such a length; and whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I found out whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities.
As long as my knowledge and vision about the deities was not fully purified in these eight rounds, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.
But when my knowledge and vision about the deities was fully purified in these eight rounds, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there’ll be no more future lives.’”
The Book of the Gradual Sayings
The Book of the Eights
8.64. At Gaya — Gayāsīsasutta by E.M. Hare
https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/hare
Thus have I heard:
Once the Exalted One was staying on Gaya Head at Gaya; and there he addressed the monks, saying:
‘Monks.’
‘Lord,’ they replied.
And the Exalted One said:
‘Monks, before my awakening, while I was not yet completely awakened and but a being awakening, I perceived auras, but I saw no forms.
Monks, to me there came the thought:
“If I were both to perceive auras and to see forms, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I both perceived the auras and saw the forms, but I did not stand with, talk to or engage in conversation any of those devas.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, but I knew not of those devas:
These devas are from such and such a deva community.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and know that these devas are from such and such a community, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, but I knew not of those devas:
These devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there but I knew not of those devas:
Such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe but I knew not of those devas:
These devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length but I knew not of those devas whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length and whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length they have a life-span of such length and whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not.
Monks, so long as this eightfold series of knowledge and vision of the higher devas was not fully purified in me, I did not realize as one wholly awakened to the highest awakening, unsurpassed in the world of devas, with its Māras and its Brahmās, or in the world of mankind with its recluses and godly men, devas and men.
But when the eightfold series of knowledge and vision of the higher devas was fully purified in me, then, monks, I realized as one wholly awakened to the highest awakening, unsurpassed in the world of devas, with its Māras and its Brahmās, or in the world of mankind with its recluses and godly men, devas and men.
Then knowledge and vision arose in me, and I knew:
Sure is my heart’s release; this is my last birth; there is now no more becoming for me.’
Join Randi and I Saturday December 6th, 2025 for “Multidimensional Contemplation with Meditation Exercise” in two sections from 5-7 pm and 8-10 pm Danish time. Only 10 spots!
ChatGPT Translation:
At one time, the Blessed One was dwelling at Gayā, on the Gayāsīsa hill. There, the Blessed One addressed the monks:
“Monks, before my complete awakening, while I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, I only perceived light, but I did not see forms.
Then, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light and also see forms, then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light and also saw forms, but I did not stand together, converse, or engage in discussion with those deities.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, and also stand together, converse, and engage in discussion with those deities, then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, and stood together, conversed, and engaged in discussion with those deities. But I did not know which specific deities they were—whether they were from this divine realm or that divine realm.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, stand together, converse, engage in discussion with those deities, and also know which deities they were—whether from this divine realm or that divine realm—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm.’ But I did not know whether these deities had been reborn in those realms due to the ripening of a particular karma.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, stand together, converse, engage in discussion with those deities, know their realm, and also know whether they had been reborn there due to the ripening of a particular karma—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma.’ But I did not know what kind of sustenance they relied on, or what kind of pleasure and pain they experienced.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know what kind of sustenance they rely on and what kind of pleasure and pain they experience—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance and experience this type of pleasure and pain.’ But I did not know how long their lifespan was or how stable their existence was.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know the lifespan and stability of these deities—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance, experience this type of pleasure and pain, and have this length of lifespan and stability.’ But I did not know whether I had previously lived together with these deities or not.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know whether I had previously lived together with these deities—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance, experience this type of pleasure and pain, have this length of lifespan and stability, and I also know whether I had previously lived together with them or not.’
Monks, as long as my divine knowledge and vision regarding these eight aspects was not fully purified, I did not yet declare: ‘I have fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its gods, Māras, Brahmās, renunciants, brahmins, humans, and devas.’ (Variant: abhisambuddho → abhisambuddho in Sya-all, PTS edition)
But when my divine knowledge and vision regarding these eight aspects was fully purified, then I declared: ‘I have fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its gods, Māras, Brahmās, renunciants, brahmins, humans, and devas.’
Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My liberation of mind is unshakable. This is my final birth. There is now no further rebirth.’ (Variant: cetovimutti → vimutti in Si, MR edition)
Thus ends the fourth discourse.
Integrating Presence 