Integrating Presence

Mid February 2025 Update

Extended version on my other site https://innerskilled.com https://youtube.com/@innerskilled albeit more relevant to the work there

Audio: Mid February 2025 Update

Chanting Practice Notes

The description for this Feb 11, 2025 live event:

I’ll go into detail of lots of stuff from the notes of noticing and observations I’ve had around the direct experience of (group) chanting practice which doesn’t come easily and naturally to me and yet can be quite a profound practice at times

AI basically summarized my talk thus:

Podcast Episode: Exploring the Depths of Chanting Practice

Episode Summary:

In this episode I dive into some reflections and experiences of chanting practice. From participating in group chanting sessions during retreats to understanding the nuances of sound, resonance, and mindfulness, this episode sheds light on how chanting influences our awareness, emotions, and energy.

Topics Covered:

• Personal Experience with Chanting: Daily group chanting practice during a winter retreat and exposure to different traditions.

• Authenticity in Chanting: Overcoming initial reluctance and embracing the practice with confidence.

• Sound and Space Awareness: How acoustics, echoes, and resonance affect the chanting experience.

• Listening and Harmony: Balancing one’s own voice with the group while maintaining mindfulness.

• Breath and Body Awareness: Observing the connection between breath, vibration, and physical sensations.

• Emotional and Psychological Aspects: How chanting can evoke deep emotions, from joy to humility.

• Judgments and Preferences: Observing likes, dislikes, and personal biases during chanting sessions.

• Group Dynamics: The role of personality types, confidence, and collective energy in chanting.

• Language and Meaning: The impact of chanting in different languages, including Korean, Pali, and English.

• Chanting as an Energetic Practice: How chanting balances and shares energy among participants.

Key Takeaways:

• Chanting is not just about reciting words; it’s an embodied experience involving sound, space, and awareness.

• The emotional impact of chanting can range from profound joy to deep humility.

• The language of chanting can influence how we engage with it, freeing us from preconceptions when we don’t understand the words.

• Group chanting can create a sense of unity, harmony, and energetic exchange.

• Ultimately, chanting is a practice that transcends thought—it’s about being present with the sound, breath, and collective experience.

• Have you ever practiced chanting? What was your experience like?

• Have you tried solo vs. group chanting? How did they compare?

• Do you have a favorite chant or tradition that resonates with you?

Drop us a message or share your thoughts in the comments!

Connect With Us:

• Subscribe to our podcast for more discussions on mindfulness and spiritual practices.

• Support the podcast by sharing with your friends and leaving a review.

Audio: Chanting Practice Notes

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This Theravada Thai Forrest Tradition chanting is more of what I was used to before Korea:

The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:

s so welcome everybody see finally got

some sun here in Scandinavia area so my

placement here is a little bit off so

apologize in advance if the Sun is a

little bit distracting

visually um so yeah I want to hear

people’s comments about chanting

practice chime in with whatever you have

to say I going give a disclaimer here at

first probably give a lot of just kind

of points and I didn’t really organize

this much I’ve got my not notes from

practice I just want to make a lot of

points so at the end of the day this

might seem all too complex or something

just kind of let all that go and do your

chanting practice this doesn’t involve

thinking this is uh some noticings of

things I could point to or talk about

after the practice um so just a little

background here I did chanting at least

one time a day in a group for a month of

col which is a winter retreat in um Ken

and tradition in Buddha Hall and uh

maybe twice a day sometimes I would do

the morning A lot of times for one month

of retreat and then I went back and I

served uh The Retreat and then I was

still doing chanting once a day there so

like two months every day um at least

one chanting

session for two months so and then

before that I’ve been at monasteries in

terab tradition which is quite different

it’s English chanting and poly chanting

um so significant differences there’s

some

similarities um the thing when I first

started doing this or was there it was a

big question about authenticity you

know so how do I do this and feel

authentic and there’s a huge reluctance

to not want to do this to feel weird um

about

it and when I list all these how many of

these can be applied at the same time uh

applied together at the same time these

points are going to make so the first

thing you do uh or notice is when you go

into the space you’re get a chant so I

mean this is common for all of us right

we go into a space and we immediately

notice things about the space whether we

don’t like it whether we like it we love

it what do we want to change um how can

we get it for ourselves you know this

type of thing or are confused about

where we’re at what we’re doing

um so the other thing to notice here is

the inside and outside of the space

we’re doing and this goes into the body

as well be talking quite a bit about the

body so just the physical space we’re in

some just standard sound qualities to

mention are Echo right echo in the space

these are things more like a sound

engineer would know the quality of the

sound is is it acoustically rich Place

does it sound really well would you want

to have a concert in there or is it just

kind of like an afterthought most

chanting halls I think are designed for

kind of rich full

deep wide sound in the volume so these

are just kind of things that just happen

in the background right okay so when

we’re actually practicing one of the

biggest things uh at least I was doing

is hearing others listening to others

chant and my own voice so a lot of times

I couldn’t hear my own voice voice and

um some say you should hear your own

voice well then you know it starts

getting into maybe a loudness War not

that’s not the right terminology but how

can I still raise my voice to hear my

own voice when I’m chanting and at the

same time hear others and not stick out

too much or not be too quiet and soft

and of course this goes

into um things like self-confidence of

you know do I feel confident enough to

raise my voice and to chant you know

and this notion of harmony with others

being in harmony with others this is a

common thing for singing obviously and

how am I when I’m toned deaf you know

how do I do this when I’m tone deaf

really the resonance the resonance

effect

um how it kind of feels with the

vibration um within the body espe

especially and then in the space and

with others around me so this goes into

vibration so even though I couldn’t hear

my voice a lot of times I could feel the

vibratory qualities of the voice

especially in the voice

box and of course the breath while we’re

chanting and how is the breath while

we’re chanting you know do we even

notice that um and then what we’re

paying attention to as well uh there’s

only so much Capac it in my attention

and awareness that what am I going to

put an emphasis in on what I’m paying

attention to sometimes I would pay

almost exclusive attention to the breath

while I’m chanting and how it feels in

the air coming in and out with the words

and of course the silences as we know in

music too um two people can play kind of

the same piece of music but what really

makes the difference is their pauses and

the silences between the

notes okay

and there was a time when it was almost

sounded like an organ I don’t know if

you guys have been like in a church or

something where you hear an organ and it

just has a certain quality and at times

everybody was synced up where it almost

sounded like someone was playing an

organ it was it was really beautiful and

a little bizarre at the same time of

course that was my perception but then

we have these organs inside so with

certain kind of awareness maybe some of

us can know can feel a slight vibration

and a

resonance uh within the organs in the

body when we are really embodied in

chanting in a certain way and deep and

paying attention to maybe kind of

tickles the

organs

um so another thing is personality types

it’s interesting who we’re sitting next

to enchanting and maybe how we know them

outside of chanting and how maybe

there’s an alpha type or a beta type

and kind of the psychology and how this

might play into chanting too I

noticed of course we get into our likes

and dislikes right I like this chant I

don’t like this chant I like the way I’m

singing or chanting this I don’t like

the way I’m chanting this this guy next

to me he sounds weird I don’t like that

this guy over here oh he sounds amazing

wish I could be like him so this is a

common thing throughout all our our

lives and of course goes into the

judgments like I’ve just said the ideas

we have you know oh I wish we could you

know chant a little bit quicker or chant

a little bit slower um you know going

into what the text says and thinking

about that you know in one sense it’s

helpful to really be mindful and aware

and kind of know the meaning of the

chanting beforehand because I found

myself kind of getting off by

contemplating what the meaning of the

words were if I agreed with the words

and then other times um

just completely put that in the

background uh almost so much it was

completely mindless and it was just like

on automatic and I don’t I think that’s

kind of The Other Extreme where that’s

not helpful either so how much do we

really embody and put meaning into what

we’re

chanting um of course the willingness to

do this some days kind of more willing

to chant and then there’s reluctance

other days like I just don’t want to do

this you know this was um

every day pretty much the same thing

every single day and even within this

container there’s differences so that’s

the great thing about these certain

formal practices and forms is there’s

not a lot of surprises in in one sense

kind of know what’s expected and can

keep practicing however within that

container we can know slight

variations and um slight

subtleties because there is potential

for slight variations and just in all

the different things that I’m saying you

know and none of this has to really even

be noticed either just this is kind of

the scope and some of more what’s

possible but maybe it’s not normally

noticed or um recognized of all the

different things that can go into this

of course uh our feelings come into play

I know the first time I chanted um at a

Center that was both terata and Mahayana

combined I I wept and I didn’t you know

just slightly and I it was kind of a a

mix of Joy it was mostly joy and then I

don’t know what it was it was just I

just just happened you know it was a

really beautiful thing um in some

respects and a lot of respects actually

humbleness I noticed quite a bit of

humbleness when we get into at least in

the Buddhist tradition and probably

Christian tradition too just kind of

feel humbled by um

well should I put this well in the

Mahayana there’s so much vastness and

profoundness and inspiration of going

beyond beyond beyond and this huge

greatness to Aspire to and in in a way

that’s very humbling at the same time

inspiring and helps with ask irations I

feel and just I think just reflection on

the Buddha is is humbling as well that

here’s a a fully self-awakened being uh

that’s something to Aspire to or just

full

Awakening the togetherness you know

um Concord and just noticing that

everybody’s together doing the same

thing on whatever level that may be uh

certain times there was chills you know

like up the

spine and yeah how much are we

understanding all this and how okay are

we with not being able to understand and

not needing to understand and how how

that can be okay

too um you know what kind of uniqueness

is here what’s really unique about this

practice and what’s kind of commonplace

so these are things to notice too of

course the

energies um the energies in the room

some days are just

really palpable and people really get

into it and there’s a lot of energy

flowing and other days it’s kind of like

pulling teeth and stiff and and uh just

kind of

flat sometimes it can be draining and

sometimes it can be energizing not

really draining as much the differences

in in just noting noticing again those

differences um dayto day in practice I

also wanted to say um that I haven’t

done solo chanting practice so I would

love to hear from anybody that has done

that and what their experiences with

that or um and honestly I don’t really

have a huge inclination to do solo

chanting practice I was doing um maybe a

couple years ago every once in a while

justas this is kind of said three

times before a lot of um things and in

certain terab traditions

and then back to the energy balancing um

it it’s it’s the chanting can be an

energetic practice where we’re balancing

energy sharing uh what needs to be

shared kind of knowing what energy is

needed uh for everybody involved in the

space and providing that if we have that

to provide and also receiving the energy

that we need from the group and so

there’s kind of an maybe an equal

exchange and balance of the

energies I think the other um

interesting quality to mention here is

um the language so a lot of these chants

were in Korean I don’t know Korean you

know there was a translation in the back

of the book so I did get to read the

meaning and of course I raised um a

couple questions I had on on this and

that minor things to some of the manast

or a few of the monastics there so I was

clear about certain things um but it’s a

really interesting practice at least for

me to chant in an unknown language

because when I’m doing it in English I

kind of get caught up in the meaning or

I think I know the meaning and then I

think oh there’s nothing else to know

here or nothing else to realize and then

kind of

compresses the understanding and the

experience in a way but when I’m speak

chanting in a in a language that I don’t

know I don’t know what I’m really

chanting right so then I can’t focus on

what the words mean but I’m listening to

the sound and the experience of the

words and the Korean has a lot of vow

ending so it reminded me of like these

people that speak light language you

know just ra s so I I don’t do that but

I’m just mimicking what some other

people do and it’s this really

interesting experience of not uh at

least for me when I hear that I don’t

really understand it but it’s got the a

beauty in the way it’s

sounds and uh

yeah in a way it reminds me of like

reading complex scientific literature

and being able to read and pronounce a

lot of the words and know what kind of

the words mean individually but not

really knowing what it’s about because

it’s so high level that I could read a

bunch of technical jargon but I’m not

really understanding it right so it’s a

really uh kind of interesting experience

like this and this question of am I

doing it right am I actually pronouncing

the words right does anybody know I mean

how far off am I

um so like I said the pros of this are

not being hind hindered by focusing on

meeting um and there’s more attention to

the sound and the special qualities I’m

sorry spatial qualities involved in

singing so it it frees up a a lot of

things at least in my experience to

focus on things other than the actual

words themselves like the effects that

the language might have had

energetically and then other different

phenomena that I

mentioned so those are my notes on

chanting practice um and like I said

most of that reflection was the kind of

the Mahayana in the K and tradition that

I did the terada the poly language that

we were doing it’s it’s beautiful

language too and I know a little bit

more poly due to practice but a lot of

these have English chance as well and

noticing how English can be kind of

really stodgy

and and some of these other languages

like Korean they sound more feminine and

uh kind of smooth and more beautiful I

know the Thai language to me it sounds

like even though I don’t know of it

sounds so beautiful and pleasant and

poly of course has a mix of

softness femininity Beauty and at the

same time very deep profound and precise

ways of describing what it

describes so yeah I thank you all for

tuning in in listening to all these

little bitty minutia on chanting

practice and now you can just let all

this go and uh yeah just hopefully some

of that in the background might help

your own chanting practice or get you

interested in doing chanting or

exploring chanting in different ways so

may all your en chanting practices be

optimal for yourself and others

long-term benefit and

well-being bye

Skillfully Progressing Contact Beyond The Human Realm: Sutta Study With Randi Green — At Gaia Head (AN 8.64)

[Note: Randi of https://toveje.dk uses her own terminology so it mixes around the standard, currently established notion of the three realm classification* of desire realm, form realm and formless realm. However, plenty still meshes and aligns with this standardization too. She brings her direct experience to bear on this sutta of which a few translations are below]

Ai assistance basically summaries our chat thus:

Randi Green and I conduct an in-depth study of the Aṅguttara Nikāya 8.64, a discourse from the Pali Canon. In this session, Green explores the concept of progressing contact beyond the human realm, delving into the sutta’s teachings on transcending ordinary sensory experiences and understanding higher states of consciousness. The discussion emphasizes practical applications of the sutta’s insights, aiming to guide practitioners in deepening their meditation practice and expanding their awareness beyond conventional human experiences.

Key Themes & Discussion Points:

1. Introduction to the Sutta (AN 8.64)

Some context for the sutta.

The text describes how the Bodhisattva (pre-awakened Buddha) first perceived light but not forms, then progressed through eight stages of realization.

Discussion of different translations and interpretations, particularly the distinction between “light” and “auras.”

2. The Eight Stages of Realization

The Buddha’s progression in spiritual perception unfolds as follows:

Perceiving light but not seeing forms.

Perceiving both light and forms but not engaging with deities (or higher beings).

Engaging with deities but not knowing their realm or classification.

Determining the realm or classification of the deities.

Understanding the past karma that led to their birth in that realm.

Determining their sources of pleasure, pain, and sustenance.

Understanding their lifespan.

Recognizing whether he had lived among them in past existences.

3. Deities, Realms & the Nature of Consciousness

Discussion on how the Buddha classified realms, distinguishing between rupa (form) and arupa (formless) realms.

Debate on terminology: “deities,” “divine beings,” or “entities”—what best describes these beings?

Tibetan Buddhism’s perspective: Randy shares insights from Tibetan esoteric teachings, particularly the Kalachakra system and nature spirits.

The role of karma in rebirth: How past actions determine where beings are reborn.

4. The Nature of Divine Realms & Food in Higher Realms

How higher beings “consume” sustenance—is it physical food or subtle energy?

The concept of beings feeding on bliss, energy, or emotion, rather than material substances.

Correspondences between jhana (meditative absorption) and different realms.

5. The Buddha’s Awakening & Past Lives

The Buddha’s night of awakening involved recalling past lives and understanding the karmic consequences of actions.

Question: Did the Buddha previously exist in higher realms before being reborn as a human?

Exploration of whether contact with higher beings implies past-life connections.

6. Scholarly vs. Experiential Approaches to Texts

Discussion on Buddhist councils and how scriptures evolved over time.

Debate over commentaries & sub-commentaries—are they helpful interpretations or later distortions of original teachings?

The importance of direct experience over relying solely on texts.

7. The Importance of the Number Eight

The Eightfold Path, eight jhanas (meditative states), and the eight levels of realization in the sutta.

The symbolism of the number eight in Buddhist philosophy.

8. Conclusion & Next Steps

Reflections on how this sutta serves as a roadmap for contemplation.

Recognizing the progressive nature of spiritual insight.

Teaser for the next episode, which will explore a Zen story in contrast to this structured Buddhist discourse.

Final Thoughts:

The episode combines Buddhist textual analysis with esoteric insights, exploring how the sutta relates to personal experiences, meditative practice, and broader spiritual traditions. The discussion provides an in-depth, nuanced examination of consciousness, karma, and awakening.

*In Buddhist cosmology, the realms below the human realm are part of the Kāmadhātu (Desire Realm). These include:

1. Preta (Hungry Ghost) Realm – Beings in this realm are driven by extreme craving and suffering.

2. Naraka (Hell) Realms – Beings here experience intense suffering due to past negative karma.

Both of these realms, like the human and animal realms, belong to the Desire Realm (Kāmadhātu) because beings there still experience sensory desires and suffering based on attachment and aversion.

Only the Rūpadhātu (Form Realm) and Arūpadhātu (Formless Realm) are above the human realm and involve progressively subtler states of existence.

And “see”/ listen to “Part 2” on my other site innerskilled.com “The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story Reading & Commentary With Randi Green” • The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story … (which is actually a stand-alone and not really related)]

Numbered Discourses 8.64

7. Earthquakes

At Gayā Head — Gayāsīsasutta by Bhikkhu Sujato

https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/sujato

At one time the Buddha was staying near Gayā on Gayā Head. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:

“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still not awake but intent on awakening—I perceived light but did not see forms.

Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to both perceive light and see forms? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’

So after some time, living diligent, keen, and resolute, I perceived light and saw forms. But I didn’t associate with those deities, converse, or engage in discussion.

Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’

So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion. But I didn’t know which order of gods those deities came from.

So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities … And I found out which orders of gods those deities came from. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here.

So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain.

So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain. But I didn’t know that these deities have a lifespan of such a length.

So after some time … I found out that these deities have a lifespan of such a length. But I didn’t know whether or not I had previously lived together with those deities.

Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion; and find out which orders of gods those deities come from; and what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here; and what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain; and that these deities have a lifespan of such a length; and whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’

So after some time … I found out whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities.

As long as my knowledge and vision about the deities was not fully purified in these eight rounds, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

But when my knowledge and vision about the deities was fully purified in these eight rounds, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there’ll be no more future lives.’”

The Book of the Gradual Sayings

The Book of the Eights

8.64. At Gaya — Gayāsīsasutta by E.M. Hare

https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/hare

Thus have I heard:

Once the Exalted One was staying on Gaya Head at Gaya; and there he addressed the monks, saying:

‘Monks.’

‘Lord,’ they replied.

And the Exalted One said:

‘Monks, before my awakening, while I was not yet completely awakened and but a being awakening, I perceived auras, but I saw no forms.

Monks, to me there came the thought:

“If I were both to perceive auras and to see forms, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”

Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I both perceived the auras and saw the forms, but I did not stand with, talk to or engage in conversation any of those devas.