(Ai Assist:) Richard Shankman, author of the seminal book The Experience of Samādhi, gives a deep exploration of mindfulness of breathing (anapana), samadhi, jhana, and the fluid, often misunderstood nature of deep meditative states.

Key Themes Discussed:

• Anapana as a Universal Doorway: Richard shares his 55-year practice rooted in breath meditation, emphasizing its accessibility and capacity to open into vast experiential domains.
• Samadhi: Narrow Path or Infinite Unfolding? Richard challenges rigid interpretations of jhana, distinguishing between exclusive, one-pointed absorption (e.g., Pa-Auk, Visuddhimagga-based) and inclusive, open-awareness jhana (more aligned with sutta descriptions). He stresses that both are valid — different flavors, not depths.
• Jhana Factors & Misinterpretations: A deep dive into vitakka-vicāra — are they “applied & sustained thought” (Visuddhimagga) or “mental movement/investigation” (sutta-based)? Richard cites Pali scholar Peter Skilling to highlight linguistic ambiguity and evolving interpretations over centuries.
• Nimitta, Light, and Divine Experiences: Practitioners may encounter visual nimitta, bodily light, or even divine figures (e.g., Mother Mary) — experiences often dismissed in strict Theravada settings but validated here as authentic openings when met with wisdom.
• Letting Go vs. Clinging to Maps: A central tension: follow the tradition or the living experience? Richard advocates steering with intention while honoring organic unfolding, guided by an inner teacher and supported by external mentorship.
• Thinking Mind in Meditation: Practical advice: don’t fight thoughts. Give gentle preference to the breath, relax deeply, and let mental activity be background noise unless it demands attention (e.g., unresolved emotion).
• Non-Clinging as Liberation: The practice ultimately simplifies into living with awareness, letting go when needed, and opening the heart — a portable, daily dharma beyond retreat halls.
• Forgiveness & Ethical Awakening: Josh shares how embracing the Five Precepts and seeking forgiveness early in practice dramatically reduced remorse and mental agitation.

Tone & Takeaway

Warm, humble, and boldly honest, Richard dismantles dogmatic barriers while honoring tradition. The conversation is a compassionate invitation to trust one’s sincere intention, relax into practice, and remain open to the mystery — whether the path leads to nibbana, divine love, or simple daily presence.

Final Note from Richard:

“Even at your worst, your good intention is still alive. Return to that. You’re doing the best you can.”

0:00 – Show Soundbite: Self-Judgment & Good Intentions

1:11 – Welcome & Guest Intro: Richard Shankman

2:06 – Richard’s 55-Year Breath Practice

3:06 – Richard’s Book on Samadhi

4:15 – Richard’s Background: From Yoga to Theravāda

5:19 – No Longer Identifying as Buddhist

6:38 – Leaving the Raft Behind

7:50 – Anāpānasati Sutta & Breath Practice

9:03 – Narrow vs. Vast Paths in Dharma

12:14 – Divine Light & Mother Mary Experience

14:35 – Goenka vs. Pa-Auk Traditions

18:26 – One-Size-Fits-All vs. Personalized Practice

21:20 – Pa-Auk Jhanas & Nimitta

22:27 – Suta vs. Visuddhimagga Jhanas

30:23 – Narrow Path to Nibbāna vs. Opening to Divine

33:10 – Nibbāna, Deathless & Unfathomable Realities

37:21 – Liberation Through Non-Clinging

41:40 – Breath Practice & Nuts-and-Bolts

43:22 – Nothing to Do, Yet Developing on the Path

45:27 – Clinging, Letting Go & When It Lets Go of Us

47:19 – Jhanas: Exclusive vs. Inclusive Samadhi

52:27 – Why the Confusion Around Jhana Definitions

54:35 – Suttas vs. Visuddhimagga Divergence

57:19 – Vitakka-Vicāra: Two Interpretations

1:04:23 – One Mind, Two Streams in Jhana

1:06:23 – Evolution of Teachings Over Time

1:09:22 – It Doesn’t Matter Which Path—All Lead to Liberation

1:12:17 – Working with Thinking Mind

1:17:21 – Ethics, Remorse & Forgiveness

1:19:53 – Contact & Closing Message

Website: https://metadharma.org — Weekly Zoom group, retreats, and daylongs available

Email: meta@metadharma.org

Book: The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Samadhi-depth-Exploration-Meditation/dp/1590305213

Related post: https://integratingpresence.com/2021/05/06/types-of-samadhi-from-early-buddhist-texts

Unedited transcript via YouTube:

Show Soundbite: Self-Judgment & Good Intentions

We can be particularly hard on ourselves and judge ourselves by how well or

poorly good or bad we think we’re showing up or doing doing it, whatever the it is. And I understand that, but um

uh you know, how well or poorly we we act in any situation is really that’s just the conditioned patterns of our

minds. That’s what we’re working on is shifting the conditioned patterns. And if when that happens, what I found useful is to um connect back with what

my sincere as a dharma practitioner, my sincere um aspiration or intentions are.

And I’ll bet everyone has a good intention. And you know, whatever your own languaging is of wanting to live in a way that creates less suffering in the

world for yourself, for others, wants to create more well-being for yourself and for others. And if that’s true for you,

even when you’re at your worst, you can still know that you you really do care about that intention and that’s alive

for you. And I find it going back to that somehow and know that still is my good intention and I’m doing the best I

can. We’re all just doing the best I can. And then and then um is helpful so we’re not too hard on ourselves and we

can still stay attuned. Let that intention kind of be bolster us kind of

Welcome & Guest Intro: Richard Shankman

a thing. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and today I have Richard

Shankman with me and hopefully I am containing my enthusiasm or bringing enough equinimity to my enthusiasm

because seriously I I really appreciate this. I’ve been doing exclusively for you know since I’ve practiced every day

since 2012. The last couple years my practice has been exclusive on anapana

around the anapana spot in the Pak tradition. just to give Richard a little bit of background here before I get

going and to make this kind of more real. And I still haven’t gotten imit.

So that’s kind of my bias a little bit, but I am also open to this huge topic on

many levels uh from the text, but we’re going to focus more on practice today. So I’m already jumping into it, but I’ll

throw it back here to Richard and say, Richard, what’s going on today and how are you? Uh well I’m well happy to be

Richard’s 55-Year Breath Practice

with you and um you know my I’ll just say my whole practice has been uh

mindfulness of breathing meditation for well I’ve been 55 years that’s a long

time this is great and I’ve done other practices you know but

really that has been and my experience has been

it just opens up and I think any practice we do can be a doorway

to open into everything you know it’s a it’s a question of finding each person’s

uh best way and so for those for whom mindfulness of breathing in its many

many varieties is a good practice and I think it is probably for

many many people um that um um you know it’s been a doorway kind of to

everything so um really I would that’s been my practice Awesome. I I again I am so overly enthusiastic

Richard’s Book on Samadhi

here. Hopefully it’s it’s balanced somewhat because for those of you probably everybody listening to this

would know that Richard has kind of this seinal book I would say on samadei. Um,

and not only I would say and I and I’m not that familiar actually. I haven’t gone through it in detail, but I would

venture to say it is really comprehensive and very thorough and wide reaching and

at the same time very accessible and and practical as well. And so maybe you

would touch a little bit on this a little bit before we jump right into to Sami and any kind of background. I think

um other than what you said, I think that’s kind of um yeah, before we just jump right in here.

Um well, there was a couple of things. I’m not sure. Perhaps you can guide me. Um um I’m as far as a little background.

Um I mean, you said something about the book and maybe should I just say something about that? That’s kind of how you know me or

Yeah, I I would think so. And of course, your name comes up in Dharma Talks from time to time, especially when people

talk about samadei, you know. Yeah. So the book title in your name comes up here and there, you know. Yeah.

Richard’s Background: From Yoga to Theravāda

Well, you know, I came up so first I’ll just say my original practice actually started in 1970 and I was more in a um

what would you say Hindu oriented yoga traditions. I lived in an ashram and um

actually I was doing mostly breath meditation. It was a different different tradition and different way of just

framing everything. And then it was in um kind of the early or mid70s I I was

still meditating but I ended up more in the Buddhist oriented kind of terravada oriented world and I’ that’s been kind

of my world I’ve sort of lived in uh of course h well having I don’t want to get

us too far off but having said that of course as the practice becomes more and more alive you really end up you’re not

in any tradition anymore. It’s just the aliveness of being and you know where’s

Buddhism that in that. So that’s a that’s a big topic. People might say but wait a minute what do you mean? So but

so to be honest with you that well it’s too late. I have to say now so people

No Longer Identifying as Buddhist

who I work with wouldn’t really know this but I actually don’t identify as a Buddhist anymore. I nobody would know

that. I this is the tradition. It’s the it’s the formulation. It’s the framework. tremendous respect and

gratitude for it. But it in my own self like in in the in just the moment in

just the aliveness of being there’s no you wouldn’t say it’s a Buddhist thing

but we still don’t want to throw the path out too soon right

well yeah you make good points you know even the Buddha said um eventually the d the draft easy for me to say

or the raft right the raft of dhhamma has to be left behind on the further shore right so that’s there’s that and I always tell

people basically the same thing, you know, I don’t consider myself a Buddhist. I study and practice this

primarily right now, you know, but and to me, I don’t even look at Buddhism as a religion anyway. To me, one way to

frame it maybe is um one approach of how to see into the true nature of reality,

the way things actually are. And the best way to go about doing that for my own well-being and for the well-being of

others and especially in the long term. So, I can definitely resonate with this. I think you’re you’re alluding to even

going beyond that as well. Um, of course, let’s not let’s not jump out of the raft too soon.

Leaving the Raft Behind

Yeah. Yeah, I’m still definitely on the raft by all. Also, I want to say uh just I hope just

to clarify, you know, I’m not making I’m not making any claims for myself. I

don’t make any claims. I would say um you know, anyway, I feel like I’m

very appreciative and gratified. um and about what the practice has done and

where it’s kind of done for me and gotten. So, in that way, uh it’s been

great. And I’m not making any I don’t make claims about it in any way. I just want and I’m that’s not me. I’m not

that’s not code for I really am making claims, but I’m too humble to say it. I

mean, for real. Yeah. No, it’s a good point. And I I I’m heavy with disclaimers myself a lot of

times. So it is is really helpful that you know and I’ll just say right now

this is of course it should be obvious but this is my current understanding where I’m at now. I’m open to you know

being completely wrong with everything and and moving beyond that. But for right now this is the the the best I’m

able and you know accessible. So so let’s jump in here. the the anopana. I guess we can um reference maybe the

Anāpānasati Sutta & Breath Practice

anopanana sati suta. And I think to keep it even more accessible and still foundational for anybody doing this

practice, we can kind of just stay maybe more focused towards the the opening

part of it, you know. So, um, like I I guess maybe one place to jump in here is

how like what are some kind of fundamental similarities and differences between, you know, the the tradition

you’re in before the um Hindu maybe oriented tradition and where the the Buddhist tradition and I’ll just, you

know, some ways we can answer here. You can we can answer for the absolute completely beginner that has no idea of

any of this stuff. we’ve got maybe more of an intuitive level of I how much we

can sense into who may be listening to this and maybe in the future and maybe with repeated listenings. I don’t know