In this forty-first installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion, turning our attention to the question of peace—especially in a time when conflict is close at hand.

Rather than focusing on politics, we explore some of what can be done practically within practice itself: how peace is cultivated and supported in formal meditation, how it carries into everyday life, and where it tends to wane or destabilize.

Areas of exploration include the conditions that give rise to and sustain peace; how it is revealed or obscured in relationship; the difference between brief glimpses and more stable baselines; the role of awareness; and perhaps a little of how some inquiries can clarify or deepen peace.

0:00 Welcome & Setting the Scene
1:18 Wendy’s Day & Small Incremental Actions
3:21 Episode Theme: Practical Peace & Ease
5:27 Joy as a Responsible Practice
8:46 Awakening Factors & Mudita (Sympathetic Joy)
12:00 Working with Hurt vs Physical Pain
17:18 Feeling Hurt in the Body – Dukkha Embodied
23:23 Distinguishing Hurt from Pain
29:06 What Does Peace Really Mean? (UN Definition & Dignity)
36:41 Baselines of Peace & Conflict Avoidance
43:59 Meditation, Unpleasant Sensations & Capacity
48:30 Real Life Example: The Vape Shop Frustration
55:28 Understanding Root Causes – Trauma & Resources
59:38 Closing Reflections & Wishes for Ease
1:01:44 Final Thoughts & Invitation

Other topics include:

• Joy as a responsible practice: Wendy talks about overcoming guilt around feeling joyful amid world suffering, emphasizing that joy (including mudita/sympathetic joy) is a wholesome, nourishing quality praised in Buddhist teachings. It serves as a counterbalance to heaviness and compassion fatigue.
• Working with hurt and dukkha: A major focus is distinguishing emotional hurt (the relational/heart ache felt in the body) from physical pain. Both speakers share how resistance to feeling hurt leads to contraction in the body, mental proliferation (“he said, she said”), and reactive behavior. Allowing oneself to fully feel the hurt in the body without judgment often causes it to dissipate, creating space for wiser responses.
• Peace vs. mere absence of conflict: Drawing from a UN diplomat’s comment, they contrast the Western/Anglosphere view of peace (no conflict) with a broader understanding centered on dignity for all. They explore personal baselines of peace, the role of avoidance or explosive conflict in relationships, and how meditation helps build capacity to stay with unpleasant bodily sensations.
• Practical application: Real-life examples are discussed, such as Wendy’s frustration with illegal parking by a vape shop that blocks the footpath, and how anger, railing, or avoidance often fail to help. They reflect on trauma as “unintegrated resources,” the addictive nature of certain coping mechanisms, and the value of restraint, direct but kind communication, and self-inquiry (“how much am I the problem?”).
• Cultivating peace and ease: The conversation highlights mindfulness of bodily sensations, working with reactivity, balancing joy and compassion, the importance of community/support, and the Metta Sutta’s wish “may all beings be at ease.” Both acknowledge they are still works in progress and invite listeners to share how they cultivate peace.

*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*

Background

Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.

For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.

Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”

Past chats with Wendy:

https://integratingpresence.com/2026/03/12/worship-respect-inspiration-meditation-q-and-a-with-wendy-nash-40/

Mostly unedited transcript using ai to “clean up” by removing timestamps:

. . . and today I’m joined with Wendy Nash. Wendy, what’s going on?

Well, I’m looking at your not background actual real environment. Now, you have to do a kind of a this is not AI. Just saying folks, this is actually the real McCoy. So, I I’m here. I’m here. I I’m here on my I’m just getting an echo here. Sorry about that. I got the YouTube up. So, I got the video up. Um, so I um I’m here on Gummy Gummy Country in Queensland in Kabula and my background is nothing like as exciting as yours is. That’s kind of amazing.

Now, you’re in Crete at some place where there’s a lighthouse at the back.

Yeah. And I thought and also I guess I don’t know if you can hear this in the background, but military jets. Um, I think there’s an American military base here on Crete and this is in Chania. If you see right behind me here, I’ve got the video louder. And uh, that’s a lighthouse, like an old Venetian lighthouse. That’s kind of the main fixture of the town. But Wendy, I’m going to throw it over to you and mute for a second.

Sure.

Well, Josh, I’m very excited. Apart from anything else, I’ve been having a quite a cool day. It was really inspiring. Then I just went so basically, you know, I have my transport thing. So I looked at what there’s an event called the week without driving in October that happens in the US and I’m bringing it up to here. I’ve done it a couple of times and I looked at all the amazing stuff everyone’s doing and I’m going, “Oh man, I can’t do any of that.” And I felt really down in the dumps. And then I just thought, but what can I do? Like I can’t do all that stuff. I don’t have the social media and I don’t have, you know, there is there is nobody really other than me. I mean, that’s not entirely true, but there are it’s pretty thin on the ground. And then I went, well, what can I do? And I thought, I can do this and I can do that and I can do that. And I thought, okay, that’s pretty cool. Actually, if I just got that, that would be amazing. And we had M Reed 1747 on today. Hi Josh. Hi Wendy. Welcome Emry. And hey, how’s it going?

So, you know, Wendy, that’s a really good point because um a lot of times it seems uh we can get discouraged before we do anything and we think that we can’t do anything, but usually there’s a lot of things we can do and we write it off as insignificant like, oh, that’s not good enough. But again, incremental steps, uh drop by drop, we can fill things up. I mean, yes, it could be frustrating that the progress we don’t have access to enough resources. We we know what we want, but we can’t do it. But we there’s usually something that can be possibly done. I mean said this time and time again and uh that uh support and encouragement and trust that what we do and say does make a difference, you know, especially with the intentionality behind it. So today is also our 40th one of these, you know. So let me read the description we have here. We’re going to call we’re calling this one practical 41st.

Oh, it is. Okay. My bad. You’re right. I need to change that in the description.

Oh wow. So numbers and dates aren’t my time. So I’m we’re calling this practical ease. I was wanting to call it practical peace just because of the alliteration, right? PP, but I think ease is more um relatable. So in this 41st installment of the ongoing live series with Whitney Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion, turning our attention to the question of peace, especially in a time when conflict is close at hand. Rather than focusing on politics so much, we’ll explore what can be done practically within practice itself. How peace is cultivated and supported in formal meditation, how it carries into everyday life, and where it tends to wane or destabilize.

Areas of exploration here may include the conditions that give rise to and sustain peace, how it is revealed or obscured in relationship, the difference between brief glimpses and more stable baselines of peace and ease, the role of awareness, and how inquiry itself can clarify or deepen peace. So, kind of a lot of fancy words there and descriptions. Um, but the the the main thing today I think is practicality and we we’re we’re told there’s a war going on. I mean uh war sucks. I I don’t think war is ever okay really my personal opinion. Um but like how how does that what relevance does it have in our lives? And if anything, I think it draws our attention to, okay, how peaceful is my life um and those around me and how much at ease am I and how much the opposite and why is that important and what’s how does that work?

Yeah. So, I’m going to be really I’m going to speak to a bit about that. So, a few years ago, I was really really earnest. I’m a very kind of goody two shoes kind of person. By the way, M Reed says, “I can totally relate, Wendy.” I think that was the up and down thing. And uh it’s always great to have M Reed because she’s so supportive and such a lovely person. And at least I assume it’s a woman, but anyway, we’ll just It is as far as I know it is. Yes, I I know. I’m saying the f Reed’s mi Miz Reed’s first name, but I’m pretty sure I know.

Yeah. So, um, you know, I can get pretty earnest and pretty serious about being good. We’ve got to be good, folks. We can’t be like fun. We’ve got to be good. And I just I read this book called Awakening Joy. I realized I was really boring. And so, I I read this book, Awakening Joy, by Jamie Barers. I’m sure you know him. And it says something like page one or two or certainly in the first chapter, what stops you being feeling joyful right now like in daily life? And I just thought I actually feel really guilty for feeling joyful. You know, there’s so much bad stuff that people experience and war, of course, is one of those things. I mean, they it’s like awful. I have a um an acquaintance in Iran and it’s I just said I’m sending you lots of love through one of the social media or email and she said that just made my day. I was she’s so heartbroken by the situation that she just is going just that one good kind word made her day.

Can you imagine what your life is like when that happens? That’s that’s war. That’s what war does. And um and but I thought I I I thought I I felt really guilty cuz there were all these things. And then I thought when I’m when I’m down in the dumps, who do I like to hang out with? And I thought I do not like to hang out with miserable gits. I like people who are negative and naysayers and they should and I like to hang out with people who are joyful and fun and light-hearted and kids and people who just bring this lightness and love. Now, I’m not talking about the positive uh toxic positivity stuff where it’s like be happy no matter what. I’m not talking about any of that. I’m talking about being just like playful and joyful. If if the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu do that and they are, you know, really important spiritual leaders in our in our world. I think Desmond Tutu has died. Um, and they are really keen on joy. That’s a big big topic for them. It’s a really important practice and a very needed practice. So, I think it’s really important to bring that um into the picture. So, and I also want to talk about hurt, but before I do that, let’s hear what you have to say.

It is a it’s a really good point. And you know, joy um if we’re doing the traditional Buddhist line here, it’s one of the awakening factors. You know, it’s um it’s also one of the brahmaviharas altruistic joy or sympathetic joy or um vicarious joy. I like vicarious. So I can be happy for someone’s happiness and it help it helps counterbalance and equal out if I’m slogging through really challenging time and it’s really really hard and I have to do lots and lots of compassion and kindness to myself. It is a counterbalance to that because it that can get too kind of weighty and o you know so the joy lifts up and it’s not Yeah, that’s the thing Winnie makes such a good point. Some pe we we misinterpret as like uh overindulgent right um like I how can I be happy and joyful when all this horrible stuff is going in the world it it’s not responsible but the fact is it actually is responsible because how can we uh we have to have some uplift in our heart all the sometime because things can get really challenging in life and how do we nourish that and balance that if I’m constantly in a state I can’t meet everything with compassion. Not everything requires that. So when someone else is happy that that the the the best mind and heart state for that is to be happy for their happiness without any kind of jealous jealousness.

And it’s a practice too. So I can’t beat myself up for for not doing that when I slip into envy. Like why am I why am I not happy? I want to be happy. How come they’re happy and I’m not? That’s that’s without training. That’s kind of where my heart goes, you know? uh but but it but but it can be trained and then because it is an innate part of our our heart that that it can rejoice and be happy for others. It doesn’t have to slide into jealousy but it it takes work for some people. Some people it’s more of a natural response and yeah um so I think that’s that’s uh wants to be uh really put forth here and it can’t be stressed enough. This is actually a responsible thing for us to do is to seek out wholesome joy uh for ourselves and rejoice in the happiness of others because it is a a nourishing supportive heart quality again and I’m doing samata meditation this concentration on one object and one of the jhanic factors that arise is joy pity pity and suka pity is like this rapture uplifting kind of bubbly you know energetic uplift that’s that’s h you know that’s joyful and then suka is a more um not as it’s it’s more smooth happiness. So these are these are things that that happen when there’s um concentration practice that they they arise and they’re they’re needed for Jhana deeper states of concentration. So yes, absolutely. And the the Buddha praised these these states as well, right? And it’s the appropriateness of it as well. So I think that’s key here to joy.

So um there’s a word in English that nobody ever uses. It’s the opposite of Schadenfreude and it is confelicity. That you take joy in somebody else’s happiness. There you go. Confelicity. Why is it that in English we don’t even know our own words for being happy for somebody else? Are we such awful people? Anyway, so Emry has said, “I just had a penny drop with what you shared here.” Thank you. I’d like to work in trinities. I like to work in trinities. Shed of three and I had a part I hadn’t heard before and never saw in a context I needed to see but I just did. Yay. We love that.

We love that. Yeah, that’s very that’s that’s awesome. And yes, sometimes you get caught in only two sides, but I love you, you know, working with with three different things because it’s not always black and white, you know, square uh kinds of thinking. There’s a yeah, a try effect a lot of times. So, yeah.

So when you go ahead Yeah. So, I was going to talk about hurt cuz I’ve been meditating a lot and I think you know we take these difficult situations and we can be I mean you know I work in uh social justice transport justice basically and I’m always fighting for people who don’t have transport choice and I don’t have transport choice but I can kind of work around it but other people that makes a difference to their whether they can get to a job or a medical appointment or whatever you you know, like it has really serious implications and and so I look sometimes have to I obviously have to deal with politicians and infrastructure professionals and transport professionals and I can feel myself get really worked up and I realize that actually I feel hurt on behalf of the people who don’t have that choice and perhaps maybe my younger self. I feel hurt for that person who didn’t feel who felt very trapped and unable to have independence.

And I’ve been thinking a lot about this about dukkha actually. And there are lots of translations for dukkha, but I really like the embodied experience. So we can say the intellectual it feels unsatisfactory, but that feels a bit airy fairy up here somewhere. But I think if we bring it back down into the body and say it aches, you know, we it when we want something and we can’t get it, it aches in our body. When somebody says something that is um hurtful, what’s that is sharp and unkind or whatever or they ignore us. It hurts. It hurts in the body. So we have these like heartaches and hurts and aches and um I think that’s really where dukkha lies because it’s true that there is the physical pain. So when I go to the dentist, sorry if you’re traumatized by that, but I’m willingly putting myself into a painful situation. I get the injection, I get the cleaning, whatever. And that is unpleasant and it’s painful but I’m okay with that. So there’s no dukkha with that. So for me when I look at the what is dukkha it’s actually that there is um an experience of hurt in the body a sort of an emotional hurt and ache in the body and when I get all like they should reply to me and they should do my things and they should agree with me and all these things when I write all these letters and when I get carried away like that I go ah actually I just feel hurt or even ask myself, am I feeling hurt? No, I’m not feeling hurt. I’m like really happy and I this this is their problem. And then I go, oh no, I’m actually just hurt. But it’s really useful to sit and kind of go, ah, actually this is hurt. Because what I’ve realized is that we are resisting feeling hurt. We are resisting feeling the sort of this body ache. We are resisting feeling that and we are defending this. So when you have an ache and your body when you when your body hurts you contract. Yeah. And this gives the imp and then at the same time the mind goes once it sort of exits the body. It sort of and dulls down the body. The mind will go and then he said she said she said he said and it’s not fair and they’re an idiot and all this sort of stuff. So you have the impression that when you’re hurt or it aches that it’s all one system because then the body, you know, your tummy’s clenched, your chest is tight. Uh you can’t really feel all that and you’ve got this worrying I this and I that and them there and da da da. But it’s it’s if you just sit there and go actually I feel a hurt or an ache all that dissipates and you can start to feel it in the body. So there you go. What do you reckon Josh?

This is really timely. been dealing with this lately as well and you know the depths of this and I don’t know the the complete depths of this but my inkling my my guess is that you know there’s a low level of this inherent in all of existence you know it’s there on a low level all the time it’s just that we’re not either sensitive enough or willing enough or capable enough to really see and know the depths of this, you know, on very very subtle levels. So, but on a practical day-to-day thing, I’ve been working with this too, or maybe not working as much as I’d like because I’ve um and I’ve noticed what I’ve been seeing as a pain response. And so whenever I don’t see in mindful of what Wendy’s talking about, then I can give a pain response that I that I basically don’t want to give, you know. But that’s why mindfulness I think and uh feeling and seeing and knowing is so important because when I have the the mindfulness and the heartfulness to to see and know what Wendy’s talking about, then I have more of a choice how I’m going to how I’m going to uh view this and respond to what Wendy’s talking about because that’s what it is. And uh yeah the emotional pain it’s usually has a correspondence in the body of a effect that when he was talking tightening in the chest you know for me there is some kind of maybe psychic pain or mental pain sometimes and it’s like in the head or just kind of a scattering and um yeah that that’s that’s an effect too. So sometimes I’m not connected to my body and that’s not an option. So then there’s there’s other things I have to deal with like okay maybe it’s showing up as chaos or in my life or like a a scattered mind and you know that those can also be indications when those of us aren’t as connected to our bodies sometimes and need other indicators to see okay there’s pain here and and uh what kind of pain response is happening or not happening. Um, and the benefit for me of seeing this is then then um it helps when I can catch it, it I can help contain it. Um, and I’m far from being uh anywhere successful at this. But when I do and then I can say, okay, I have a choice. I can say something that could actually be more hurtful to myself and another or I can refrain from saying something right now and wait till the time is more appropriate to respond, you know. So yeah, I think it also for me it has to do with restraint a lot of times and and actually not restraining when I need to restrain and pull back and actually just feel the pain, you know, and say, “Oh, oh, yeah. Oh, this is this is this is dukkha. This is this is pain, you know, now.” And then that’s the first step because yes, like we were talking, everything’s going to be we’re going to have moments of pain. You don’t get out of a human existence without pain. However, what we then do about that and how we view it and respond to it is going to make the difference between adding piles and piles and piles of extra suffering on top of that pain or dealing with it in a way that that will minimize or help not do that. And it’s tricky too, I think, because sometimes it it it feels so good to be angry, right? They talk about like a honey tip and poison root of anger. Sometimes it feels so good to be justified that I’m right, but at the end of the day it’s it it’s only like momentary and then there’s consequences and fallout of that, you know, either from feeling shameful and guilty about it or actually having um another like nobody wants to be lashed out on, right? So they they some people can lash back out on me and then it just keeps compounding and compounding and compounding. But this notion that it oh it feels so good to just be right and lash out and say my choice and but I but I found that’s not really a solution long term, right? I I guess it’s it’s it’s understandable in some senses and it’s not as simple straightforward as this either because you know some some of us have been felt and this isn’t me because I had no uh shyness coming up about emotionally conflict with my family. We just mired it and we were all doing the best we could but we didn’t really have any tools or anything to know how to do anything different unfortunately. But some people they’ve been they they’ve suppressed. They think, “Oh, I need to be like Wendy was talking. I need to be the good girl. I know. I I need to be the good boy and be make sure everything is going okay and make sure everybody’s happy and I don’t want to show any kind of anger or anything because you know I’m not really allowed to or you know I or for whatever reasons, right?” And so then when they they find out, oh wow, I’ve been suppressing this and then I need to deal with this in a different way. one of the options then I guess is to come out um and just just express it you know um and now I think yeah we so I think that’s that’s enough to get to get us started here and I’ve been going on a little bit but um to bring it back to Wendy’s point feeling it in the body is so helpful because it does dissipate if I can just sit and be with it and say oh yes this is this is pain and you just feel it really deeply without really any kind of judgment and like I was taking care of a 5-year-old child in pain, you know, and how would I respond to that 5-year-old child in pain and and giving that to myself and when when um it will dissipate, right? It will dissipate and it’s okay um to feel it because because it’s there anyway, right?

So, I want to just uh question this thing about pain because I don’t think it is pain. I think it is hurt. And I want to distinguish because I I I think what the ego does is it says I I’m not not hurt. I don’t hurt. And so there’s a whole lot of different strategies that the mind will do to say I’m never hurt. And and I know that I used to say, “Oh, I don’t feel hurt.” And I know I meet other people and they say, “Oh, I don’t feel hurt.” You know, it takes a lot to hurt me. And I know that that’s not true for me anymore. I look back and I’m like, “Oh man, I was like one big hurt giant bumblebee, you know, or bubble of whatever.” And um uh so and the people who say, “Oh, it’s takes a lot to hurt me.” are the ones you want to go. They’re really likely to get really hurt really quickly.

So I think it’s really important to just really lean into terrible expression but really allow your yourself to experience hurt because it’s not pain because when you go to the dentist that’s pain but when you are in this experience when it’s relational it’s actually hurt and you can have a relationship with your body like why does this why does my cancer do this or why you know why my one of our volunteers and she’s going I get all these migraines and the migraine is separate from her and she’s hurt by the fact that these migraines are hurting her and yes it’s excruciatingly painful and it knocks her out so I’m not belittling the enormous physical pain and the debilitation and the disability that arises for people who experience a lot of migraines but um I do want to say that hurt and pain are different. That’s all.

Thank you so much. It absolutely couldn’t agree more and that’s it’s it’s a really significant um difference you know and u correction and I just look back in my own not to get too overly confessional or um you know go on go on go it’s more fun if you if you speak about your direct experience. Well, sure. It’s more helpful. Absolutely. It’s more helpful if you sort of speak in theoretical abstract terms. It’s like, you know, who cares? I don’t care if I can get that out of a book, you know. So, give me the real McCoy here. I want the real thing, Josh.

Totally. And it’s way more juicy. And I I I don’t know if the these uh fighter jets are showing up, but yeah, I totally agree. However, I do like lots of books and lots of study, too. So, but to remind uh thanks for the reminder. We’re we’re not reading a book here, right? we’re having a conversation and talking. So, it’s this isn’t a uh classroom setting as far as I know. So, but the the the hurt thing, yes, you know, I I look back in the really low points of my life and there was so much hurt that I and I didn’t have any kind of tools or know how to deal with it and the only thing that I could think of is I want someone this is horrible, you know, and I’m so glad that this is not the case anymore as far as I know or it’s very rare. Thank goodness I hope so too that I’m not being delusional in this is that I I was I felt so hurt that I just wanted someone to feel the the amount of hurt that I was going through you know like that was going to be any kind any better for me or anyone else. But there was no kind of reasoning. There was no kind of I would say hardly ethics of course around that, you know, especially not the ethics of non-harming. It was just that I’m in pain and I hurt and I want somebody else to know what I’m going through. You know what I mean? and this denial or this um this delusion that my hurt is is is unique and that no one else can really relate to it. And that makes it even worse, right? Because we know that’s not true. I mean, of course, it’s not going to be exactly the same as someone else’s hurt pain, but it’s going to be similar, you know, and this notion that my hurt is so unique that, you know, that and that I really want to cling to my special flavor of dukkha because it’s so it’s it’s mine and that’s what I know and it’s it’s kind of unique. No, not really. You know what I mean? It’s there’s nothing really special about it. Um, usually now now I don’t want to be not to be insensitive, but what I’m saying is that um, sometimes I can also cling on to my my special version of of what I’m going through, but it is a universality. We all suffer, you know, until we’re fully awakened. Oh, yeah. I know. But I mean, you know, it’s quite, you know, the whole, “Oh, woe is me. My life is terrible, which often comes with alcohol. I find it’s they they come together, you know, like you get the up and then you get the down. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And good point. I was that that was when I used to drink, too, you know. Yeah. So, very good point.

Yeah. Yeah. So, now we’re talking about uh the our installment. How do we how do we bring peace? To me, it’s like we bring peace to it by acknowledging that we feel hurt or we have an ache, a heartache. And I also want to put in this caveat that when it something really awful happens, you know, you you hear about people and their loved one dies and people are told, you know, they have to kind of come to terms with it and go through it and stuff, but they’re sort of living in denial. And I’m just going, “Wow, you know, give it a break because it’s really awful sometimes.” And denial sometimes is the right response. It because it keeps you psychologically safe during a really tough period. It’s not healthy to live like that forever, but if that’s what gets you through a really bad phase, hey, I’m all for it.

So, just to put that in there. Um, so how do we cultivate and support peace in formal meditation? And I want to ask what peace means. Before I do that, I’m going to give you a United Nations definition. So I was listening to the radio and it was this guy talking about what does peace mean now in the United Nations the formal he was some big UN diplomat from wherever in the world and um he said in the United Nations which is basically the Anglo um sphere and European European peace means no conflict. But everywhere else in the world, what it means is that you you actually everybody lives with dignity because then you have peace. But if it just means no conflict, it means you’re not aware of things and you can silence things. Now in the moment, Emry says in the moment it is then when you see the larger point that it’s not. So I’m a little bit confused. Tell me in the moment. In the moment it is then when you see the larger point when it’s not.

So I’m very sorry. I I’m not quite sure I get it. So um I’m not wanting to be rude or anything, but I just don’t understand. So, but I I think that difference between um living with dignity and not living with conflict is a really useful thing here. That’s that’s my take.

You you’ve mentioned this before and it’s a really helpful point. Let me just let me guess on uh Emry’s comment. uh at least I don’t know what what the what the specific point is but this is something like if we’re focused maybe on too much minutia and we think something is the way it is but then we have a larger picture of it then we realize the what we’ve been kind of hyperfocused on then that’s that’s actually not the case because now we have a larger perspective and we can see that what we had before was only a tiny little piece of the puzzle and why it was probably still Um uh about being unique. Okay. So she said about being unique. So yeah, now now we get the now we get it. I mean Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s right. Okay. So before I comment on Wendy’s uh definition of peace, you talked about and I think this is a really important point to touch on again too is the denial. And so yes, you know, if we were in in a perfect world and we all had the perfect conditions, anytime we felt hurt, we could go within and do a formal practice and address it in all the that the the highest helpful ways. But the matter of the fact is we don’t always have access to that. Um, and so we have to have other uh coping mechanisms, right, and other strategies for dealing with things. And like Wendy said, actually from what I guess the psychologists say, this denial is part of the grieving process, right? It’s one of the stages. And so just because I’m in denial about something doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m completely delusional or off track or we’ll never get through it or am I doing it wrong, right? It’s just one of these stages.

And sometimes things do get too overwhelming and or hurt too much that it’s just unbearable to be with it. And so at those times there we need other helpful ways uh not just the the the ideal way to to deal with something. So I just wanted to echo and and validate it and and amplify that point of that denial is is yeah is is part of the grieving process and in a strategy as far as I know you know now like and then like you said though if we get stuck there well then that’s another thing then we have to address that maybe in a different way. But uh okay so so you said about peace and it’s really interesting I mean yeah if we frame peace as lack of conflict then it’s almost like pre uh sub assuming that that that there’s conflict or that I’m on the edge of conflict or that it could go into conflict any moment and I don’t want conflict get it away from me you know uh that’s not peaceful and then there’s maybe an avoidant tendency or a a judging about it and um maybe or denial or lack of to to confront it, to go into it, you know, to um to be like so yeah, you’re right. So, I think that definition is helpful to a certain uh degree because who who wants a lot of extra conflict internally or externally. Yes, of course, we as far as I know, unless we’re like psychopathic, we don’t really want that or thrive on that. Or if we’re a chaos maker and think that I can somehow get some power by stirring up chaos and then and then stepping in and say, “Oh, I got this. I’m going to make order out of chaos.” kind of uh silliness that uh we hear the slogan order of chaos, but if they’re deliberately stirring up chaos so they can step in and then control it and so that’s that’s something else and that’s ridiculous. Um so I’m not not necessarily talking about that. So, but dignity. So, that brings it it it takes it away from a theoretical level and it puts it on a very humanistic day-to-day heart level. I think you know dignity you know where if I’m not treating someone with dignity including myself what what’s going on you know why is that is it because I was not treated with dignity does it feel maybe I feel justified and in being indignant you know does it feel good to be indignant um you know do I feel do I feel like I can now uh feel better about myself because I can put someone else down and not des or maybe I’m just too overwhelmed and stressed and I can’t I need to show myself dignity before I can express it to another or consider it for another because I’m so stressed out now that I can’t even show myself dignity, you know. So, I think yes, um I they both go hand in hand, but I do feel that this dignity thing is that we’re all deserving of that and that’s where we’re all on equal footing is that we’re all worthy of of dignity, you know. And I’m not there all the time either. Of course, there’s times when I lack dignity for myself and others, you know, and and I appreciate being called out on it because that way I can change uh if I don’t see it, you know.

Yeah, I think there’s definitely a lot in there. So, here in your I’ve just got the um video here on my right. It says areas of exploration may include the conditions that give rise to and sustain peace. And I think we’ve just talked about that how it is revealed or obscured obscured in relationship and I think we’ve addressed that the difference between brief glimpses and more stable baselines.

Let’s go there.

Very good moderator Wendy. Yeah. So I think what we mean here is we have we all have we’ve I hope the heck that you’ve experienced peace, right? So that’s a given. And then how long? Um, so I guess if we if we reflect, where is our baseline of peace? What would we consider peaceful most of the time? If it goes a little bit away from it, then I feel like that I’ve lost peace in my life. But if I go a little bit stronger into peace, maybe really on a long retreat or you happen to be around really wise, calm, peaceful people or just the circumstances and conditions, then we kind of know the opposite end of this is, oh wow, that I’ve seen that even more peace is possible, you know.

So that’s what so that’s um so then we can kind of maybe establish our baseline if we see where we get really off track or it it gets really off track and then where it can really be solid and peaceful and so yeah so how do we I guess re reflecting on my own baseline to that you know I I honestly I I think I yeah I don’t like conflict I I and I try to avoid it actually you And it’s it’s it feels easier and nicer for me not not to do it. And so I do think I have some avoidance for conflict. And it doesn’t work too well in relationship though because we’re going to be we’re going to be uh confronted I think for the most part with with conflict whether we want it or not. So that is one of the challenges and um rewards I think of of relationship is that you can’t really avoid it. uh it’s going to come out sooner and later whether we want it to or not. I think if if I had to guess for uh a significant part of relationships, you know, I mean there’s a degrees of severity, I think. But uh yeah, so as far as baseline, I think my baseline is actually not so healthy, you know. I think I’m uh avoidant when it comes to conflict and then it ends up coming out kind of all at once because I’ve been lazy and neglectful um for something that needs to be addressed headon and in depth in more detail until it’s too late and then it can kind of turn into conflict sometimes. And in conflict I just mean like okay I can’t get out of this where we have to address it now. There’s no other option you know we can’t put this off anymore. it needs to be gone through right now.

I think it’s it’s hard, you know, when you’re in a relationship. I mean, relationships are hard, you know, and I was thinking I think the anglosphere is very um conflict averse and there’s lots of silences and withdrawal that arise rather than, you know, say in I’m going to be a bit stereotypical, but like an Italian family or in other families where it’s more robust, they have these really stronger relationships. And um so just while I think about it, M Reed has said great definition. This was I think before about conflict peace. Great definition. Thank you for sharing it. Sharing it says so much about our current times. And she’s now said we start with where we are real authentic. Look into it. Awesome chat. Love the chat. Um thank you. So, where was I before I interrupted myself?

Well, we were we were talking about conflict and I I just it doesn’t necessarily have to escalate conflict address so I you know when you when I you know in poor communities they actually get used to conflict because they’re so dependent on each other and they they have these big baries and they they get used to relationships. But in the Anglosphere, middle class and up, we we don’t like that. We just do no speakies and all that sort of stuff. And I I feel that that can be really an unhelpful way.

I’ve you know, I’ve lived in Sweden and I think the Germanic side of the Anglosphere is a bit like that. Um whereas in I’ve also lived in France and they are more robust and they family is more important and they you know let you know things. So I think I think it is an an I think the anglosphere is an anomaly in terms of conflict. And we think that when conflict must mean an argument, we think a conflict must mean that we are hurting each other. But I’ve been sort of looking at this sense of hurt and ache a lot and thinking what if we’re so not allowing ourselves to enter into the body to feel the body. You know, I realized after living in England that they kind of anything to do with the body is completely denied through their sense of humor and everything. You know, that the way they dress, the way they eat, the way they use alcohol, the way they present themselves, it’s all sort of anti-body. And I and I think as I you know I’ve got English heritage. As I think about that um and that denial of the body when you feel hurt it feels such a shock to be connected with the body. And so maybe conflict is just saying well this is a bit uncomfortable boys and girls. Let’s have this is a bit miserable. is a bit and maybe what we can do is come forward gently.

But it’s really frustrating. People park on the footpath near the vape shop. Drives me mad. Vapes are illegal here. And I see them parked on the footpath and they block it and I have to ride on the road. It’s really dangerous for me. and I’m railing at them and yelling into the shop and you know I have my days because I get really tired of it. And I think when we don’t when we don’t feel we have resources that’s when we get into this argumentative space as opposed to conflict being well you think this and I think this and let’s have a you know a lovely we chat about it.

Yeah, really good stuff, Wendy. The uh Yeah. So, the that’s that’s the thing that’s so great about meditation is that uh when we’re not in relationship and there is some kind of hurt there and some kind of what what does that boil down to? Uh in one sense, maybe it’s too ins sensitive or oversimplified. It’s unpleasantness in the body. There’s unpleasantness in the body. Now, this isn’t the full extent. There could actually be some abuse that needs to be uh dealt with, right? But when we’re dealing with it on the cushion, um this hurt, I think, can can be simplified down or in one degree to okay, what is my threshold for being with hurt, unpleasantness in the body, you know, how do I do that? What are the benefits of why should I bother doing that? What’s the point of that? how is it going to help me? And uh yeah, so this is this is what it comes down to.

And if if if I can address some of the those own questions, I would say um it’s happening anyway. It’s it’s it’s when I become aware of it that I can really have a choice of how to deal with it. But I look at my own when when I when I can deeply feel it and be with it, then it it tends to dissipate. Then I realize then I have a sensitivity. Then I have kind of a feedback of my own um my own voice and what I say and what other people say to me. There’s an increased sensitivity. So then when when I have more of a feedback that’s I think more instantaneous um more direct more sensitive then I can then I can get uh quickly oh when I say this it might have these impacts when I don’t say this when I don’t listen u when I try to be avoidant or when I be too direct when I’m not a direct enough these are kind of the the feedback and responses and it’s not like I have to think about all this in micromanagement. It it’s it’s um can be felt in real time effortlessly in the body sometimes, right? And so then there’s just comes into intuitively having a sense a wise sense of uh how to think uh speak and act that’s going to have an impact on others and myself and kind of let wisdom take the reigns on what to know and realize that I’m not going to get it right all the time. I’m going to screw up. Uh but there’s a willingness to go forward and and to and continue doing the best I can. And if I could do better, I would. And allow that to inform um how I am. And using the outcome to reflect on, okay, what kind of intentions do I need to adjust here? Um what kind of speech and action do I need to do different? What what’s what’s helpful? You know, what kind of thing is going to be helpful? um in my speech and actions with others that’s going to lead towards uh my well-being and theirs, you know, and it’s it’s an ongoing learning process in these things in in in life and and how to do it. And you know, a big support too is having friends like Wendy and someone I can talk to that’s on the same page, has the same interest, has kind of on the same path and that can keep me in check, you know, that can show me my blind spots, call me out, but not do so out of hate and spite, you know, or unhelpful. Yeah. Right. But like there’s a genuine caring and interest to to to for for well-being, you know, and that we’re we’re all figuring our way out through this and we can help each other when we can, you know, and uh teachers, too. So, so all right. So, I think I was just thinking about my vape shop and they park and they they it’s illegal. They get closed down. They’ve got their trading thing and you know, I contact the uh various um authorities and go they’ve got their little because I’m like really ped because I you know it’s unsafe and it drives me nuts. So here you are. See I’m getting really worked up about this cuz it drives me nuts cuz they shouldn’t be pugging the footpath. So, I’m going nuts. And so tell me like, you know, it’s like people who rail at the television, you know, Uncle Uncle Bob, he’s always railing at the television, you know, and so how do we like without being all avoidant and kind of fake and like theoretical when you’re really worked up like, okay, I can I actually know the police constable. So I could write to the police constable for highway high highway patrol and just email him and go right just so you know. So I should do that but I think it’s good to yell don’t yell don’t park on the foot path too cuz for me I just feel like mind you I’m also a bit nervous that one of them’s going to come after me and run me down while I’m on my bicycle. So that’s the problem with anger, you know, we think it can make us safe. And I I used to have such a foul temper. Then I started counting up how many times getting angry made me safe. And I was like, oh, not very many. And how many times does it make me feel unsafe? Well, plenty actually. So that that made me kind of keep in check. But I don’t want to be fake and I don’t want to be suppression and I don’t want to avoid and like what do you do when you’re kind of something like that where you’re physically harmed and you’re frustrated that this keeps coming up and it’s an illegal thing and you know they’re thugs. They’re all gangs run by gangs and stuff. They have no compunction about anything. Now you tell me how I deal with that, Josh.

Well, as a female, you don’t do it this way. um with as a guy this is a little bit more um likely to do. Although I don’t know if I could recommend it either. I’d have to see, you know, the extent of it, how big it is, and how many friends I have to take with me, you know. So, so to me, when it’s in a a challenging situation, if I can and it feels safe to do, uh, even though it takes it takes a lot of courage, it this doesn’t apply to Wendy. I’m sorry, but this would this is maybe how I might deal with it. Is actually just to walk up and say, “Hey, bro. What’s going on? How’s it going here?” And just I’m just two minutes. I’m just two minutes. What’s your problem? No, but see, that’s the thing. Like if um if you were on Okay, so put yourself in in their shoes and if someone was yelling and screaming, I can walk 50 meters and 100 meters down the road. It’s not impossible. This is exactly how I feel. Bam.

This this brings me to then the next point that I’ve been working with a lot lately is it’s um what we say, but also how we say it, you know. So, how receptive and you know this doesn’t really apply to to to gang members too because they they operate on a different rule set as well. So, I don’t recommend also going in there and being harmful or the tough guy either, you know, but I wonder how and not as Wendy, but if some guys out there around Wendy’s neighborhood that have had enough of it, too. Yeah.

Come on. But this is where it’s really important is is how you do it because this is actually potentially dangerous situation. But I don’t think it’s beyond going in with the right heart and the right attitude in the right way. Not being a pushover, but not being overly aggressive and and and condemning either, but just say, “Hey, what I don’t know exactly how to say it, but how you say it is going to be important. But is there I’ll just say, is there a possibility for some guys to go up there and directly talk to them and just see what’s going on? see what the options are here, you know, and I don’t I don’t I don’t know if that would be too wise because it is illegal. That’s a rubbish answer, Josh.

Could you like anonymous? These are things you go you do could you could you send an anonymous message to the police so you don’t have to give your name?

I know I know the police counsel write him an email. He He would He’s fine. He He’d be all right. last time I complained about well he would he would be all right but I don’t know about you so that’s why I’m wondering if you could just contact anonymously yeah it’d be all right I’ve contacted through through the various things but the point is you know like as I was saying there probably you know it’s about me just letting off steam apart from anything else um because I get so so frustrated by it and am I better for it no but I just it’s like I just see red you know so that Yeah. What do you do with that?

What do you do? Because it’s completely valid. It’s completely valid. It’s completely valid feeling. Of course, I’m completely right, Josh. There you go. Finally, I’ve convinced you. I’m right. Of course, I’m right. But they’re still there. You’re right. But they’re still there, right?

I know. See, then then then how does it work? Like, what do you do in that situation? Normally, I’m pretty I I’m pretty pretty chill and I’m I’m much better about that. And I do it a bit more jovially. I’m I don’t do it with like All right. You don’t park on the book path a little bit. But I do kind of, you know, do that and and sometimes, you know, I go, “Stop parking on the foot path.” They go, “Oh, sorry.” So, there have been patrons who who have done that, but it’s just, you know, it’s like they shut down the vape shop and it was fantastic. I didn’t have to worry about my safety. It was fantastic. And then it popped back up cuz they’re thugs. So, it it is Yeah. Yeah, you go go in there. Go in there and buy it and buy a vape from them and then break it right in front of their face, throw it on the ground and walk out without saying a word. What about that?

Cost me money. I’m not going to give those sons money by goodwill, young man.

Yeah.

So, you see, but but I think we get we we we get like caught in these things and it’s really hard when we’re we’re in that thing and it’s that thing that drives us mad and we’re railing at the telly and we look at those I don’t know politicians or people or whatever and we just kind of blood boils, you know. Yeah. And it’s I I think they they they pray on that actually. They deliberately show things that are going to be emotionally triggering because that’s what sells ads. You know, oh, how dare they? How could they? Can you believe this? Well, that’s what that’s they’re deliberately putting material and presenting material in a certain way that will deliberately uh invoke those responses because then I’m emotionally invested involved and that’s very powerful and alluring and charging, you know. So, that’s the thing. Yeah. But you actually have a real life situation, not something that was deliberately manufactured on a wide scale to have an emotional or trigger response, right? Yeah. So this is this is your work, right? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it it the thing is that it wasn’t such a problem and then it’s just when the vape shop is there and people are desperate because they’re all like exactly, you know, those stupid vapes. Um, and you know, and and they hate them. like people I know it just they hate them. I’m I meet people and they go I I they’re more addictive than even cigarettes, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Um so yeah. Um if if we look so if you know if we look at that the behavior is at least I know when I used to smoke it’s because I was nervous uh I didn’t feel good and then when I smoked cigarette I felt some sense of false basically or very conditional peace and relaxation right it felt like a release and there was a a few minutes of calm and ease until it wore off and then I had to have another like you’re saying it’s highly addictive but if we look at the root of that there there’s hurt and pain there and this is one of the ways that they’ve been suckered into dealing with that because they don’t have any other resources and that’s the other thing you mentioned about trauma the definition I heard of trauma I really like is un integrated resources so yeah I think that’s it so yeah you talked about resourcing and it’s like having resources or whatever resources we do have because I think everybody has some but they’re just not kind of integrated properly. But, you know, that doesn’t make their behavior right though. You know, that doesn’t make that it doesn’t make that Yeah. I’m not saying what they’re doing is right because they’re in pain. No, but if we’re trying to have some kind of baseline understanding, they’re in extreme pain and that’s that’s one of the ways they’re dealing with it. Now, how they’re dealing with it, not not okay. And and actually you rais a really good point because I need to just look in the mirror and know that when I was a driver and when I used to and I used to park on the foot path, what’s wrong with parking on the footpath? And I was very well, yeah, I can’t park anywhere else. Got to park on the foot path. And I was completely selfish. So yeah. So, I think I’m just arguing with myself to be honest, you know, and I think I think I’m just being adversarial because I’m not putting myself in my in my own shadow experience, you know. Maybe I’m overly practical, but I think if there was a choice for somewhere else for them to park other than the footpath, they wouldn’t park in the foot path. But the it’s the opportunity is not even there, you know. And I think maybe you’re if I’m had to venture a guess, you you might feel invalidated for the work you’re doing. You know, here I’m trying to do this and make things better for people. I’m being completely disregarded. They don’t even think, you know what I mean? Absolutely. And how I’m You see me after all this work I’ve done, I’ve devoted my life to this and they just they’re completely ignoring it. They are off my Christmas card list. Let me tell you, Josh. Okay.

So, yes, but it just goes to show, you know, you know, we kind of work workshop that in real time because I’m going actually there was one person who had this stupid big van and it was completely enormous and I couldn’t pass. And yes, there are parking spaces over there, but they don’t, you know, the footpath, the road, everything’s just car. You know, when you’re in a car, you just think, “Oh, well, it’s just everything’s there for a car.” And I used to be exactly the same. And um and actually I’ve conflated all these things together and I’m now going to write to my police officer friend and just go, “All right, by the way, they’re doing this. They’re driving me nuts.” So, I’ll do it in a more formal tone.

So, we’re coming up to the end. Josh, yes, we are. How do you feel about today’s little catchup?

I feel we I have a long way to go to be uh more peaceful and I want you all listening to this to chime in and actually say how you find peace and ease in your practice in your life because I can use the more help as well and yeah so and but I’m aiming towards it and peace is said to be the highest happiness ease is one of the things in the Metta Sutta I thought about reading the Metta Sutta again on here because it’s short but we’re we’re out of time Now, and one of the things that’s repeated in there, may all beings be at ease. And it is a great wish and and the highest happiness, you know, and it’s an ongoing uh work in process for us too, but it is also available in our hearts. So, it’s not anything super special. Uh but it it it it does take cultivating and um and and yeah, dealing with things the way we can best deal with them when we’re able to. I guess hopefully that’s not too convoluted and watered down, but I I wish everyone peace here and peace and ease in their hearts, in their lives, in their relationships, in the world at large, too. And um you think, well, maybe that’s wishy-washy, you know, hopeful uh thing that that’s not practical. But what it does is it starts uh pointing and aiming the heart in in a right direction. And it’s for me too because it conditions the heart. And so the the more I can work and condition or I don’t know about work but you know incline the heart and mind in that sense and have a genuine sense of goodness and well-being then that really does uh have an impact on the heart and then by default those I come into contact just be more likely that I won’t be such a sour sour puss um uh when I don’t have to be you know or I can see maybe I have a choice now and I’m I’m treating myself with some peace and ease so maybe that will rub off in in the relationships around me. So, and I’m the first recipient of my well-wishing and and u alignment and wanting peace. So, and I think have a bit of joy. Take yourself not so seriously and look at what how much are you the problem I think is the other one. Anyway, we’re out of time.

We’re out of time. One one more point just I learned the other day too. How much priority are we putting on something? Am I giving it too much of importance? Like Wendy said, am I taking this too seriously? You know, I’m putting too much importance on this. You know, is it really that important as well? So, yes, as Wendy says, have fun and we’ll catch you next time. Right.