[Note: Wendy’s audio improves significantly after four minutes]
In this forty-third installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion this time with the massive topic of non-harm. Our last Q and A on the five ethical training precepts took some interesting turns. This time we look at what those five are mostly based on: non-harming. This is big and basic yet foundational for meditation practice, wisdom and everyday life with massive range for our inner worlds, the outer world and beyond
(Ai more or less puts this talk thus:) Non-harming is explored as the foundational principle underlying Buddhist ethical precepts, meditation practice, and daily life: how harm manifests internally (self-blame, hurt feelings, “spikiness”) and externally (difficult relationships, power dynamics, manipulation, political rhetoric), emphasizing self-responsibility, honest self-reflection, and skillful communication over blame.
Key themes include:
- Recognizing when feedback about ourselves has validity vs. when it reveals something about the other person.
- Meditation practices for inquiring into hurt (“What needs to be known here?”).
- Handling difficult or manipulative people without escalating harm (referencing – Shantideva’s stick analogy and the Dhammapada).
- The value of feedback, emotional availability, and non-defensive communication.
- Lojong (mind-training) slogans as practical tools for transforming adversity into awakening.
- Forgiveness (releasing resentment without condoning harm), self-compassion, and avoiding martyrdom.
- Broader observations on power, paranoia, political division, and reciprocal relationships based on integrity.
The tone is personal, reflective, and conversational, blending everyday examples with Buddhist wisdom.
Chapter Titles (with approximate timestamps):
- 0:00 Intro & Topic Overview – Welcome, context, and introducing non-harming as the root of ethics.
- 1:25 Hurt, Blame & Self-Reflection – Wendy on feeling hurt, blaming others, and recognizing one’s own “spikiness” in meditation.
- 5:06 Two Options When Criticized – Learning about ourselves or about the other person; discernment and responsibility.
- 8:28 Difficult People & Power Dynamics – Viewer question and discussion on threatening personalities, family/professional conflicts, and the “pinball” of mutual hurts.
- 11:26 Meditation Inquiry Practice – Wendy’s approach: “What needs to be known here?” and working with thoughts/emotions.
- 14:14 Communication & Feedback – Asking directly, using “I” statements, emotional availability, and more skillful phrasing (“What I hear you care about is…”).
- 21:50 Manipulation & Losing Respect – Experiences with inauthentic people, complicity in being “played,” and the pain of dishonesty.
- 25:55 Overcoming Harm with Non-Harm – Dhammapada quote, taking the initial “hit,” avoiding tit-for-tat escalation (Josh).
- 28:55 Boss Story & Psychopathic Patterns – Realization of one’s own condescension; paranoia as projected shame; power and fear spirals.
- 33:42 Wisdom Practices & Forgiveness – Seeking guidance from teachers, blanket forgiveness, self-forgiveness, and releasing ill will.
- 36:30 Grudges, Drama Triangles & Political Harm – Addiction to grudges, victim-victimizer-hero patterns, political rhetoric, and divide-and-conquer dynamics.
- 45:16 Lojong Slogans – Mind Training – Detailed discussion of key Lojong principles: use everything as the path, drive all blames into one, tonglen, hold views lightly, etc.
- 55:40 Cautions & Closing Reflections – Avoiding misinterpretations (martyrdom), compassion guiding rules, and final thoughts on non-harming.
Some resources for a few things mentioned:
Mahayana Precepts (Bodhisattva Precepts)
Mahayana traditions often emphasize the Bodhisattva Precepts (from the Brahma Net Sutra), which include the Three Pure Precepts plus sets of major and minor vows focused on benefiting all beings.
- Wikipedia overview (good starting point): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_Precepts
- Eight Mahayana Precepts (one-day practice, often mentioned in Tibetan/Mahayana contexts): https://thubtenchodron.org/2011/06/taking-one-day-vows/ or https://kadampa-center.org/eight-mahayana-precepts
- San Francisco Zen Center (combines with Zen): https://www.sfzc.org/offerings/establishing-practice/sixteen-bodhisattva-precepts
Zen Precepts (Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts)Zen (a Mahayana school) uses a streamlined set: Three Refuges + Three Pure Precepts + Ten Grave Precepts.
- San Francisco Zen Center (excellent clear version): https://www.sfzc.org/offerings/establishing-practice/sixteen-bodhisattva-precepts
- Zen Mountain Monastery: https://zmm.org/receiving-the-zen-precepts/
- Rochester Zen Center: https://www.rzc.org/about/precepts/
Lojong (Mind Training Slogans)
Lojong is a Tibetan Mahayana practice with 59 slogans (organized into 7 points) by Atisha and Chekawa Yeshe Dorje. It focuses on transforming adversity into the path of awakening, compassion, and reducing self-centeredness.
- Mindworks (clear explanations with examples): https://mindworks.org/blog/the-lojong-mind-training-slogans/
- Judy Lief (excellent commentaries, PDFs available): https://judylief.com/offerings/slogans-of-atisha/
- Lion’s Roar article with practice tips: https://www.lionsroar.com/lojong-mind-training-teachings/
- Wikipedia (good historical overview + list structure): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojong
- Full 59 Slogans PDF (comparison of translations): https://austinzencenter.org/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/default_attachments/1572107948-59-Slogans-comparison.pdf
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Audio: Non-harm | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #43
Past chats with Wendy:
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Full Raw Verbatim Transcript (with timestamps removed via ai):
Hey homelessness, welcome. This is Josh, integrating presence Wendy Nash. What’s going on today?
Well, I’m here on Gubby Gubby country in Queensland in culture. Josh, you’re I think in Colorado at the moment.
No, I’m back from Colorado. Back in Missouri. So, yes, it’s a little confusing. I didn’t change the thing on my website that had mountain time, which is in Colorado. So, I was confused on how long I was going to be there, but back here in Missouri. And so, today
Yeah, today we’ve we’re doing I just might as well just jump right in here.
Um, and it looks like another platform is working at this time. So, I’m just I just started that. So, this is our 43rd installment of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash here and we we’re going to continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion.
This time with the massive topic of nonharm.
The last Q&A we did was on the uh five ethical training precepts took it took some interesting turns. This time we’ll look at those uh what those five are mostly based on which is nonharming.
This is big and basic yet foundational for meditation practice wisdom and everyday life with a massive range for our inner worlds, the outer world and beyond. So where do we start with this one?
Well, actually, you know how I’ve got this thing at the moment where I’m talking about hurt and ache? Yes. You can hear in my chair.
Oh, no.
Yes. So, this morning I was in my meditation thinking about what because I love um when I’m meditating to think why is it in that situation it doesn’t bother me but in that situation it does.
I like the compare and contrast model because like what is the difference there? And so I think about hurt. Why when do I feel hurt? And I realized this morning because I I kind of get into the blame game. Talk about nonharm. Haha.
Not. So um and what I realized is that I feel hurt. I mean I blame people when I feel hurt. When I feel hurt, it’s because I actually am somehow believing that what they’re saying is true.
I know that’s a bit controversial, but when I feel completely like, well, that has nothing to do with me. They’re just a bit nuts. Then I go, okay. But there is a part of me that realizes that maybe I’m not all squid clean and, you know, all the rest. And I realized that there was a part of me that actually um I was a bit spiky still like I knew I used to be but I it still sits there and I can feel it in some of the way that I’ve interacted with people and and I just got and some comments on Facebook you know you can get there pretty pretty quick and so I was just sorry about mentioning that social media account.
Um, so I was just um reflecting on how the only way to step into that space is well, this is the way that I do it anyway, which is to ask myself in meditation, what needs to be known here? So, I’ve got an identity. I’m hurt. what’s what else is here in the picture?
You know, what am I not seeing about this? And I just went, “Wow, I’m actually quite spiky. Well, you know, I’m not always my best self. What can I say?” But instead of trying to excuse, well, everybody’s not, you know, their best self all the time. I thought, well, I am actually sometimes not my best self. And maybe I agree with them that there is a part of me that doesn’t that sort of deserves to be hurt. Now I’m not being all, you know, you deserve to be treated badly or anything like that. I’m certainly not advocating in that space, but just to recognize that sometimes I can be not my, you know, I’m not being my best self. as well.
Well, that’s this is really I mean this is the nitty-gritty of everyday life.
And before I jump into my response here, um I think we had this last time that it’s it’s just a little bit muddy on the audio, but not too bad. It’s still it’s still um it’s still okay otherwise. Um so sorry to to detract from that, but it’s it’s all good. I will set I will change my u audio settings. I’m just going to go to this venerable’s response that I love surrounding the well first off I will say that that’s my tendency too and see I’m even one of blaming the fact that I’m blaming so that’s my tendency too to go to someone else and say oh it’s on them not me right and then I even want to blame like my my parents or whoever my upbringing and external circumstances for me to be blaming. And so to me, this this speaks to self- responsibility. But the the the way this one venerable put it, um, when someone says something about me, there’s basically two main options. Either we learn something about ourselves and what they’re actually saying has some validity, or we learn about them, what kind of person they are, right? And a lot of times I find what someone says has a lot to do about actually what’s been done to them. And so they’re they’re saying the same thing. But but sometimes it’s totally legitimate and it is about me and it’s a completely valid point. Now you know um then then we come to discernment. That’s why meditation is so in reflection and contemplation is so great because then I can take that in and say okay is there anything to this? like you’re saying from what I remember is basically, you know, like yeah, where is there anything to that? And what do I need to do about it? You know, I was I being a little bit harsh. I like the word spiky. That’s good. You know, like um and yeah, did my words cause harm? And even though I might not have meant that um at least that’s what I tell myself. Was there actually something deeper going on where I wanted to have some kind of harm and I just wasn’t conscious or um maybe I just wasn’t aware of that and I don’t want that to happen. So then I want that feedback if it’s valid and legitimate and helpful to then inform how I go forward because at the root of this like we I mentioned at the beginning harm is kind of the harm and non-harming is the the core of ethical practice. And not to get too political here, but you know, apparently there’s a war going on. And war is big business in America, you know, and there’s all kinds of rhetoric on why it’s okay to harm, how one is in the right to do it, what kind of stories and narratives and imperatives and just, you know, even religious um righteousness because my God said it’s we’re justified in killing, you know, and all manner of craziness. I would just or just ridiculousness about why it’s okay to harm and that’s a radical statement but uh in today’s society but but so be it you know yeah I just going back to your first statement you know venerable who said either it’s about them or it’s about you and I would like to say actually who says it’s binary either or you know these things relationships are dependent arising so there’s nothing to say that both of us aren’t sitting there being hurt and there’s a particular instance, a particular person and M Reed is here on the scene. Hi Josh. Hi Wendy. So good to be here on this topic. Love to have you here. Maybe is there something that you would like to share now? You’re a little bit behind just because of the way the recordings go, but um you’ll catch up quick. Welcome. We put it put your question in now while we’re on this topic and then we’ll come back to you.
But there’s one particular person who I find quite there’s two people in my life. One is in my family and one is in my professional world who are both quite difficult characters and both of them play the power game. Now, I know a lot of powerful people because I deal with politicians and stuff like that, but it’s really interesting when people feel like very quickly threatened by me. Now, I don’t like to think of myself as being threatening, you know, like I’m what 55 kilo woman and I’m 165 cm tall. So I don’t know what that is in the old numbers but um but you know not physically threatening but what I’ve realized is that threat comes in many forms and we have identities about mirror mirror on the wall who’s the somethingest of us all and so I do feel that these two people that I know one is very threatened by the fact that um they want to be the both of them want to be the center of attention actually they want to both of them be the leaders in this space and I’m just doing my thing and I just want to do what I do and I’m happy to collaborate but both of those are solo players and want to be the one who claims the glory they want to be the one who who’s got that But that’s because in their own world they too have wounds and hurts.
But that doesn’t mean to say that when they kind of cut me off or say something mean to me, I don’t say something mean back just in my frustration, in my own hurt.
And so I think it’s like this pinball machine of like bing bing bing bing bing bing bing where you’re ricocheting around your own hurts. So I I often think of Shanti Deva. I don’t know if you’ve read much of Shanti Deva, but I do like this example of the stick, you know, was blaming someone for their bad behavior is like blaming the stick for hitting me, you know, like you can’t. So Emmery says here, “Yeah, I can do harm and not know I do harm. So what is the best approach to this?” Well, so I don’t know if you noticed, but at the beginning, Emmery, I said my approach is when I’m meditating to ask myself, what needs to be known here? Just sort of sit in the middle of this unpleasant feeling because this particular kind of thing where everything gets quite still and I’m going, h, okay, I’m in the zone. What needs to be known here? And I just keep repeating that. And often I’ll put in um things like uh what’s the theme common to all these thoughts or what’s the emotion common to all these thoughts and I find that very helpful. So that’s me.
What about you Josh? What do you say is um what’s the best approach? Well there’s there’s a lot here. Yeah.
Let me let me pick up on uh what you said. Yes. And it’s not as simple as the we either learn something about the other person or we learn something about ourselves. A lot of times that’s particularly helpful if I can’t figure out, oh, is that them or is that me? Is what they’re saying actually about me or what they’re saying is actually shows me where they’re at and what’s been done to them when there’s some kind of confusion or just taking these extra perspectives.
Yeah, it’s not as simple as a binary thing. That’s for sure. I want to ask Wendy before I get to the the question here is did did you ever ask them d I’m curious did you ever ask them directly if if the the people you say that um they they they what was the language you use that they think that you’re um harming them or yeah do did you ever ask them directly or did you just kind of assume that they think that you’re hurtful towards them do you know what I mean or how do you how how did you know how did you find out that how did you come to that assessment.
Well, one is somebody he’s one of my local he’s my local counselor and he’s blocked me from his Facebook page. He doesn’t email anymore. Yeah. And um now you know and I I had to kind of write to him and just go, “Yeah, you can’t actually behave like that.” Like he he came up behind and put his hand on me and he’s a bit sleazy and creepy and stuff. And I had to write to him and just go, “No, you can’t do that.” It’s actually a power play. It’s a status power play. So, um, yeah. And the other person, that’s a more complicated relationship to do with other stuff in both of our personal lives. It’s a family situation. So, it it starts from a long long time ago in the galaxies of past eons. And yeah.
Oh, okay. Thanks. Good. Thank you. So yes, well here’s here’s how awesome Wendy’s advice is is really good too. So the introspection and contemplating on it and asking the questions but and the other external ones for me are just sometimes it’s embarrassing and sometimes I don’t have the courage to do it but I just say oh is you know if I’m getting something intuitively from them like oh did is is that I mean did you just asking for feedback basically you know how did that land for you or um I I it seems like you’re upset are are are you really upset and was it has something to do with me. But usually a lot of the people that I interact, they have no qualms about telling me right away. You you know, you you I can’t believe you said that to me or you you’re you know, yeah, it’s it’s my fault. It’s so this what we talked about at the beginning is this and I do that too. I do it a lot is blame other people and yeah so it’s it’s a tough one too because sometimes there is something to that where I need to um to say that but other times it’s a vicious cycle then right so one of the ways I like to do uh this but I’m not usually mindful enough to do it is when it just say oh when when I I’m feeling like this right now you know use like describing feeling language and I’m not really good at this you know I have the concept but then putting into practice is another thing you know instead of saying oh you made me feel this way saying oh wow I’m I’m feeling like this right now you know um when I when I hear that I feel this way you know uh and then they say oh oh am I to blame for that and I go usually I go well I don’t know because um so this is the other thing when we when we speak my intentionality is 100% my responsibility when but when I say something I’m only partially responsible for that because otherwise I can’t control how anyone takes my language but I’m still partially responsible. If I was 100% responsible then I should be able to control exactly how they take it. I want you to take what I say in this way and not in this way you know because this is but that’s not how it works. I don’t have that kind of control but there has to be some shared responsibility uh and how it lands for another I feel. So yeah and now we’re just talking about language too. I mean, the most obvious form of hurt is physical violence, I would think. You know, unless someone’s like pleasure center is inverted, and unfortunately, I’ve seen this happening where they they get into things where they they feel that physical pain is actually pleasurable. That’s a whole another ridic um thing. That’s that’s not what we’re talking about here. That’s that’s kind of a pathology, I would say, almost, you know. Um Yeah. So, that’s a that’s another thing.
So, Emmery has said, “Oh, good. So good communication skills and feedback. So there you go. Now just two things. I think there are other channels where people are giving us uh feedback live and comments, but I actually can’t see see those other channels. So do you want to just see?
Sure. I’ll check. I I I want to say in in in the chat it should be all combined now, but maybe it’s not. Okay.
Because just wanted to just find out.
Sure. So I I thought about that, you know, I feel this and you know, it’s been part of our language for quite a while. It’s part of our contemporary practice.
And I’m going to say I don’t like it because I think for some people, you know, like I lived in England for a while and to talk about your feelings is so culturally inappropriate. It’s it’s really and then what I notice is that it makes the other person aware of their emotional stuff and they may not be ready. So if I think about these two people in in my life, professional and personal, neither of them are emotionally available particularly. It’s very interesting because the counselor is very very close to with his wife. I because I see them together around they do stuff together. Um but the other person Yeah. No, not not at all. Just just is very finds that she calls that you’re dumping on me.
So, so I would just I would just flag that one that that means that that person is illequipped to ex to navigate the emotional landscape. What I prefer is what I hear you care about is.
So in this um conversation, what I would say for you is what I hear you care about is treading carefully and kind of owning your own stuff, trying to repair and mend relationships and recognize that you are don’t always do your best, but you try, but it doesn’t always go well. So, that’s what I hear you care about. Now, when I said that, how do you how what’s your internal experience?
Of course, that’s that’s beautiful, Wendy. And of course, that’s way more skillful and adept and applies in more situations, right? that my the the the thing that I’m trying to fumble through only works right when there’s some emotional availability, which is a really good word. Not that I’m always emotionally available either. And my emotional IQ is not where I’d like it to be either. You know, I don’t lead with that. A lot of times it’s a kind of a train skill and I have to drop everything usually and go into that because usually I’m, you know, business, you know, it’s like cross things off the list, get it done. And that’s not the best way to, you know, be in a lot of different relationships. I mean, it’s efficient and it can keep things, you know, uh, in harmony to some degree, but it’s it’s really kind of a surface level business type thing. But you’re you’re right, not everybody’s emotionally available or emotionally equipped to to to to go in that way. But the way that you illustrated there I think is applicable in almost any situ or lots of situations whether the person has any emotional intelligence you know any you know any sensitivity you know emotional availability it it’s a great way to do it not only that but it shows that you’re actually paying attention and you care you know as long the as long as it doesn’t get inverted. There are unfortunately a few people where I’ve found where they use that as a kind of a and I’m not saying you’re doing this because I don’t get that at all. It’s just like an a manipulative thing. So, so you kind of you kind of gather what someone says and then you kind of summarize it in a way that or not you, let’s just say I I summarize it in a way that I want for my agenda and then I kind of try to put words in their mouth where it’s not necessarily untrue, but it’s a leaning and slanting towards what I want rather than deeply honestly caring uh you know about the other uh the other person’s point of view. But again that’s hopefully we won’t have to encounter that too much you know the manipulation of these techniques too because unfortunately they can be reversed and inverted and used you know in the wrong ways too but yeah overall though people I think most people can tell whether the other person’s heart is genuine or not you know so it’s not that big a deal I find so
I mean our topic is non harm today and it’s very interesting so earlier on this year I was in a meeting with a a company and uh well with with one person in a company and in the meeting I was like oh she really got it that was really and I felt and then I left and I was like wow I was so had she just played me like a violin like totally and I lost all respect for her in that moment I had heard very good things about her and I just went yeah you are just something else and I bumped into her another time. And yeah, she’s as shallow as a saucer, you know, and I just thought, yeah, like I I kind of don’t I don’t have any respect for you.
Which means that the way that you behaved had harm because I’m not going to lose respect for somebody who I see is working with non nonharm. You know, that’s just somebody who is performing that. And you know, I do like the Lo Jong slogans. Do you know much about the I know I knew I know a few of these and I’ve heard them read off before. They’re beautiful trainings. Yeah. Please um share with those with us. And then I want to see how you view these type of people in these I find them really fascinating uh part of practice to and how to view and respond to these type of people that you’re talking about you know that’s it’s it’s a really fascinating um um you know thinking about that person I just feel um you know there is a saying you cannot be lied to unless you want to believe the lie.
So that’s always worth thinking, ah, you know, how could you betray me? How could you lie to me? Actually, you were a a co-articipant in that lie. There’s a saying, let those who want to be fooled be fooled. Something like that, you know. Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah. So, I just feel like I was complicit in thinking she understood me as opposed to being able to see through her cuz I wanted I was like, “Oh, you know, she’s she’s whatever. She’s invited me to the meeting. This is amazing.” And then it turned out, yeah, no, this is just a tickbox exercise.
So, so how do I navigate that? You can hear the hurt in that experience. You can hear the sense of mistrust. You can hear the contempt. and derision and scorn and so and the defensiveness and so I think I just have to recognize that you know still plenty of material to work with and and I just I you know there’s such a deep yearning in me from my childhood that I want to be liked and I thought she liked me and then I realized Oh no, she wasn’t my friend. She didn’t want to play with me. She was just playing a game.
Yeah. And for me, my response usually is I get infuriated. That really the dishonesty is something that just absolutely infuriates me and I have to I have to deal with that because part of it is a protective mechanism, right? And and I kind of laugh at these things because to to keep from crying in some sense, you know, because it’s just the the the range of behavior and it almost seems like the the character I don’t want to speak for because I’ve never met this woman, but what I’m thinking of is is different interactions I’ve in past.
And then if you were to try to express that honestly to some people, it it does it doesn’t do anything. you know, it’s just like they almost get off on that they’re kind of superior and that they’re, you know, uh, in a position that they are and they can do what they want and pretend otherwise, you know.
And I think it’s said in this in the Buddhist scriptures and it really resonates with me. If someone shows no sense of remorse for telling lies, there is no amount of like harm that they can do, you know, because if they don’t really think there’s anything wrong with it, then they can do just about anything and think it’s okay, you know, and so is super dangerous in a sense. You know what I mean? And and some people just don’t know, you know, but there is psychopathy or psych, yeah, that’s the right word, right? And sociopathy. And so I’m not saying that’s a full-blown thing, but like like what do we do? And the big thing is I um I if I lash out or get upset, they just it just seems they feed on that, right? And it will just perpetuate. So there needs to be other strategies because that is um there’s a famous line the damapata that uh uh nonharm or harm is never overcome with harm. Only with nonharm is is harm overcome. this is an ancient eternal law or something like this, right? Because it it and Dr. Martin Luther King said something similar too, but it is so to me uh when when something comes harmful at me um and it’s just kind of verbal, then there has to be a strength and a courage and a patience to take that initial hit because usually I will just lash out and return the same energy and then it comes back and it perpetuates and it just makes things work at worse and it escalates, it snowballs. So I almost have to not that I need to be a martyr or anything but if I want something different to happen I need to do so some something different has to happen. So one of the things is taking that initial hit being uncomfortable. Oh this is unpleasant. This hurts. I know that it’ll only be there for a moment but that is the way forward that I want to be happy or in the long run not right because usually it’s just tit for tat. I’ll just get back at them and then I will overcome them and I’ll be right and then I’ll win. But no, the other person is in pain that they still that doesn’t they’re oh yeah, you’re right. Let’s all be friends now, you know. Oh, thanks for speaking so horribly to me. Now we’re just No, it doesn’t usually there’s kind of immity still in the heart. So something has to be different. Okay, that’s enough.
So about uh 13 years ago um I was in a job and my line manager she resigned or I left whatever it was. No, she resigned and I gave her a hug and I said something and because she’s English and she had actually no idea that I had actually said really something patronizing and condescending and I had and I didn’t know I had said it, but I I I said it and it just didn’t reverberate with her. And so it just landed back to me and I went, “Wow, okay, I can see why people don’t like me because I’m just going,”Wow, I’m not really not a pleasant person here.” And so I think that so my goal with people who are like that is if you if you feel tortured by their experience, you either react or you feel succumbed. I’ll put it that way. They have won either way. But what if through our own practice and our own experience of clarity and awake, you know, like owning more and more basically it gets to the point where it just passes through a bit like I did with this uh boss and actually they just get it back to themselves when they start to see who they are and and they may become enraged with me but I haven’t done anything except do nothing. So they kind of can’t accept experience their own uh thing. So I do think it so I have some friends with psychopathic traits and what I notice about them and what I notice about myself when I get into very power oriented systems is there is a sense of paranoia that emerges and I have the feeling that when somebody becomes paranoid when they start to feel paranoid about and I’m not talking about schizophrenia or anything like that I’m just sort of talking about um this sense of they’re out to at me or you know like they they’re attacking me or whatever. That actually um that is because there is a part of the mind that knows that there is something you should be shameful of but you’re not willing to own it and so it becomes inverted into par into paranoia.
Wow. That’s that’s that’s great. So that it’s so it’s a signaling the saying that something needs to change here. Something’s happening that I’m doing that I’m not seeing that needs to be called to attention and and and owned and admitted. Yeah. Wow. Huh. How’ you go ahead or I I would say the thing because it the psychopathic structures and I don’t want to get too much into it but um because it’s not one where it can turn internally. Paranoia is internalized experience of discomfort of shame that is projected outwards onto other they are going to get me. Someone out there is going to do some me some harm. And it’s actually because their their own egoic structure is unable to experience shame and tolerable to tolerate it and so it just gets twisted into this outwards thing. So you what kind of sh What kind of shame though? I’m interested in what kind of shame do you think?
Well, I guess it’s a little bit like I was saying at the beginning, you know, ah well actually I am not always my best self and I am and I think I would say for that structure it would be power plays and that wouldn’t surprise me then why people who are very into power become more and more paranoid about killing the opponents because because and in fact it feeds onto itself. So then they become more paranoid. So they set it up so they’re more p power oriented and then they become more paranoid and it just you can see how it just sort of spirals.
Well, it is too because to to get in a sense of worldly power a lot of times harm I shouldn’t say a lot of times I’m imagining that some harm has to be done or because for a lot of things in the world if I get something someone else has to miss out on it, right? But that one person that’s missing out on it probably doesn’t want to miss out on it. And so they might want to go into competition to get that thing. So if there is, and there’s different degrees of scarcity. And you know, I’m speaking a little bit abstractly, but those who rise in power, there’s other people that are competing to want to have the same type of power or position that they’re in. And so if that person wants to cling on to that position, then they have to watch their back, right? And if you’re constantly watching your back all the time, you might be in fear or that might escalate into paranoia too, right? And so, yeah, these are really the this is really interesting um human behavior we’re we’re talking about here. Yeah. And now I think I the other if if I could jump back to in Reed’s question here too. Another way that I um look to the wise, you know, and wisdom teachings and the wise and teachers to find out if I’m being uh harmful too. And um yeah, and a lot of times I don’t realize it. Another good practice is just to do a blanket forgiveness practice. I find too when I can remember it’s it’s customary in certain monasteries to do that to just say you know if if I’ve done anything knowingly or unknowingly uh please forgive me you know and then also to forgive others and it it’s tough because it doesn’t it can’t really be a superficial thing either and some people have problems with this word forgiveness and that’s understandable too because of different baggage and uh thinking that you know uh anyway it’s complicated and that’s for another time but I think that’s another beautiful practice if it’s done the right way and feel comfortable and it’s the right time to to do it and sincere as well. So yeah, just about the word forgive. Um, so in the European languages, so take that from a from a Christian talked about this too. Yeah, mine it means that I forgo the right to uh for retribution. And so I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about. we’re talking about. I think it’s more like I feel resentful and I and I want to stop feeling resentful. I think it’s got a different twist to it when we talk about it in the contemporary sense.
It does, but that that inter I think it’s there’s some similarity because there’s an internal thing there. At least I’ve noticed when I’ve harbored grudges, there’s an ill will sometimes there. Like I really want to hurt that person because what they did to me even though I won’t act on it, the ill will is still there or maybe I have in the past at least said something nasty, you know, but the type of but so in a way that’s yeah, it’s letting go of in a sense that uh notion to want to that person to have some harm come to them because of what they did to me or whatever. Wrong. So yeah, wrong. I I I interpret. But the thing is that yeah, it’s that it’s it’s hurting me. It’s not hurting them to harbor that ill will, right? Um but and then the other confusion I think it comes around forgiveness is saying if I forgive them, then that says what they did is right or what they did is okay. And that’s not what it means. That’s not what we’re talking about. So if we need a different word to mean that it it’s the burden I’m carrying around that’s not harming them or not making anything I’m the one suffering and and hurting from this not them anymore or you know it’s not has anything to do with them. So and it does not mean what they did is okay you know not at all.
Oh I’m and I’m very partial to holding on to a good grudge. I do like to do it. I’m I’ve noticed how much I love to do it. I wish I didn’t like it so much, but it’s such a great addiction, you know? I’m like, “Oh, I’m the ones who’s so harmed. I’m the one who’s, you know,” and it’s like some bad 1970s program of, you know, and and you see this in the movies all the time, you know, revenge of the soul kind of hero and and there’s a whole lot of American stuff about that. It’s like, oh, victim victimizer is huge, you know, or bully victim. And then the throw the hero in for the other drama part of the triangle here where you know the the bully becomes the victim and the victim becomes the bully and then oh maybe a hero will come and stop all this or maybe I’ll be the hero and save somebody else’s from from the bully and it just it just cycles on and on and on and people know this and they that some people use that to their advantage and fuel this this drama triangle right and take advantage of that because of how uh certain people are, you know, and the habit patterns, the energy and the culture around this stuff.
What I noticed with that counselor is that what he does is he will create drama and then come in and want to be the rescue person. Oh yeah. And then he offends everybody. He’ll just suddenly get up and then he’ll be completely dismissive and rude in a whole lot of ways to a whole lot of people. And I’m going, you’re an elected official. I think your name, you should really be focusing on gaining connections, not not kind of creating enemies. I just, you know, there’s a part of me that goes, I kind of feel really sorry for you because and it’s pity actually. I guess that’s contempt, but there’s just like, man, you’re so clueless.
No, but it’s it’s it’s like once you see um you see the this pattern, how it plays out, it is laughable because like what’s going on here? Can’t people see this and how it’s going and how like it’s like a caricature, right? Like a cartoon almost when you kind of see how the how this thing plays out. And yeah, I mean it my it’s so absurd. I I mean that’s why I think that the laughing for me it’s just so absurd. I don’t know really how what am I supposed to do with this, you know? How am I supposed to respond to this? Uh, seriously, in some senses, you know, but but I’m like the the orange hair man on I mean the things that come out of the this I was like I don’t know what to do with that. I just kind of like that’s so absurd. Like what am I supposed to how am I supposed to view that or respond to what am I supposed to do with that? It’s what I you know there was there’s a federal a federal politician I was listening to.
So we were at a conference and so there’s a television. We don’t normally have a television. So, it’s like, oh, that’s a television. Let’s go for the channel which has the most provocative makes the most provocative statements. We happened to tune into this federal politician ranting with this like appalling journalist and and we were sitting there and and I and I put the timer on and I went, “Okay, how long can we last?” And I got I couldn’t make it to three minutes. But um and this see this politician, he’d been around for a long long time. Mr. Australian politician, are I sitting there kind of going, I actually don’t even know what you’re saying. It’s not even like what you’re saying is just really nasty and, you know, and hurtful, but I’m just going I don’t think I heard one coherent sentence in that. And the journalist is this particularly unpleasant character and he just goes exactly and and I think he’s all he’s he’s just doing it to incite hatred in the audience.
So that’s that’s harm. You know, there’s a lot of harm in there, but there’s something about this banding together that makes people feel that they’re on the right side.
And but the problem is it becomes more and more infighting. I’ve been looking at messaging for this. You know, I’ve got this not for profofit for transport and I’m going how do we talk about stuff? And what’s very interesting is to look in at um Schwarz’s values. And there’s the self-trcendent stuff which is all about communitarian positive stuff. And then there’s the self-enhancement which is money, power, that stuff. Ex. And one is implicit. This is what we all want. We all want good community. And the other one is explicit which is more about me versus you.
And what I what I have noticed is that when you have political parties that are more me me and less communitarian, what happens with that is that um and I don’t mean the inclusive stuff because a lot of the inclusive stuff is really alienating and irritating but but if you have community goals then that more people will sort of stick into that space for sure. Um but what happens with the self-enhancement goals is the more you talk about money and power it increases your selfishness and so you start off being a mob and then slowly it sort of kind of that you start off going well us against them and then the the us becomes smaller and smaller and then it becomes me against you and it just becomes increasingly increasingly kind of um separ separatist I don’t know what the word And for all the good things that sports do, I guess I think they they lent to that though, you know, they lent to that. And you know, going uh so this is really important that some spiritual circles there’s a lot of new age distortions, but one of the dichotoies that are sometimes helpful although I think it’s still off is service to self or service to others, you know, and what what are we doing here? Are we am I feeding me only me? You know, there’s that’s a difference between taking uh self- responsibility, making sure I’m in a good place, and then I can help others. That’s different than than it’s all about me and my clan and nobody else. And we’ll go into competition and fighting. No, it’s u as my my girlfriend says, the the highest um first of many for the highest good of the many, you know. So, this is um yeah, so that we can we can help each other uh when when we’re a good place to do so. Especially now going back to the politician, what I kept thinking is do you know about neurallingistic programming? Uh and I I was wondering if they they use that too and about this notion you point out a really interesting thing too about how they they band people together sometimes out of outrage and you know all kinds of different things. But then what interesting ends up happening is then you get the us versus them but then you get more division inside and so you have infighting as well. And so it’s divide and conquer. So those on top then they can s they can rule and control those who are divided and fighting amongst each other too. And I also want to um say since it is a meditation Q&A uh on a personal level um if I’ve harmed somebody that’s going to be one of the first things that comes up when I sit in silence you know and that was the first few years of my practice uh waking up to the fact of how much harm I have done how much harm had been done to me and not to fall into the victim again but it sometimes it that’s it didn’t even realize that all this stuff is going on and so that’s compass I mean um yeah self-compassion but also forgiveness was really helpful forgiving myself that was huge being able to do that and then u forgiving others and asking for forgiveness too uh for what I had totally forgotten about or didn’t see the full extent of so it’s it’s uh self-nowledge is rarely good news as they say but as that clears out take self- responsibility but then it becomes more and more sensitized I think so what what I used to be able to kind of get away with and not suffer like consequence or whatever. Now it’s become more and more subtle. So where even slighter things that I wouldn’t even probably have noticed before the blowback is more and that’s very noticeable uh especially if you sit down in silence and not keeping precepts you know find it comes back fairly quick these days.
And I also wanted to remind you about long j help me out with the pronunciation this Tibetan training if you want to go into some of those too. I think. Yeah, Lojang. Thank you. Easy for me to say.
Well, I’ll just pull them up here on the side because I think that’s So, one some of them that I really like um some I one of them is don’t act with a twist. So, I think that’s really clear. You don’t that doesn’t need any explaining.
Um and I the other one I like is of the two witnesses, trust the principal one. And that has two meanings as far as I’m aware. And one of them is only you know when you’re kidding yourself and only you know what is right for you. So they’re my sort of so that that one is my thing and the other one is um or what is it? I’ll I’ll let me just pull up a list.
Sure. And while you’re saying don’t act with a twist. This is yeah definitely guilt and guilty I don’t know is the right word but alter I think of ulterior motives here like I’m saying one thing but the way I’m presenting it is not completely I I have something else behind it or in context that I’m not explicitly stating that I that I find is too harsh and that I don’t want to say directly but uh but but it’s there and I I I want to kind of get to that thing behind what I’m saying instead of just directly saying that because it’s either too harsh or it will um be explosive or cause too much. So, it’s it’s like this subtle thing in the background saying one thing but not uh but having something else right there like a Trojan horse almost, you know what I mean? And yeah, speaking in circles or not speaking as directly or having hidden agendas, hidden motives sometimes, you know, and it’s not always necessarily for a bad thing. It’s just that uh sometimes it’s easier to do do it that way. It seems like, you know, which but it’s it’s slimy. It’s it’s really is slimy you. Yeah. So, I was at this transport conference and I bumped into a colleague and she’s such a snake and I and she’s sort of inserting herself with the sort of big hero honchos, you know, all this sort of stuff and she’s at the head table with the big politicians and and it just and then I mentioned, “Oh, look, here’s some data. You might be interested for your thing.” And she replied, “Oh, yeah. And shall I give you a call afterwards?” And I said, “Well, just have a look at it and see what you think.” Oh, and so shall I give you a call afterwards? Well, why don’t you just find out what it is and then just sort of see how you can use that information in your strategy? And then she didn’t say, and so shall I give you a call because it’s like, yeah, don’t call me actually. And she said it another time, you know, it’s all about the relationships. And I’m thinking, yeah, it is all about this game is all about the relationships. And you it’s about integrity. You have you can’t have a relationship with somebody where you’re liked one minute for what you uh for your power cuz the minute you lose the power you actually nobody will have anything to do with you. Um yeah.
So I’ve got a number of the um uh slogans here.
Cool. Let me let me ask real quick. So I’m a little bit confused. So she actually What was she meaning by uh can I call you afterwards? What what was what was the deal with repeating that? Did she really think uh like I I’m I’m still not following that for some reason.
It’s a way of her kind So what she does is she inserts herself into relationships to kind of claim territory. It doesn’t feel like so if I said to you, “Oh, look, have a look at this information.” and you said, “Oh, can I give you a call afterwards?” I’d be like, “That would be amazing. Sure. Well, let’s let’s have a chat about it.” But it felt like this was her trying to insert herself into a place in the relationship.
So, so, so yeah, exact. So, you know that that that smmy feeling that you get where you go, someone’s not straight with you. I’m going, you’re not being you’re not straight. And I also know through on the grapevine it’s like so this watch for this person. She didn’t really care about what you were having to say. She just wanted to make sure that she had um Yeah. She wasn’t put the she wasn’t putting the emphasis where where you wanted it to be right. You know what I mean? She was wanting to have it in what kind of power play she could have with what you were trying to um bring to attention.
So that’s what it seems like. We both very early on like three years ago um we we both gave feedback to this council document and I and she said oh you know and can I is it okay if I can have a look at your your submission and I was at the time I was like yeah sure and I never heard and I asked her oh you know can I have yours and then that never appeared and so there’s that’s one that’s kind of one of those flags where people say I want your information so I can use it for me but or you know they kind of whatever.
Well, especially when you asked for it to you asked to to have be reciprocated and she basically lied or forgot about it or whatever but or maybe I didn’t ask but and I just expected that. So the thing about it is it’s about reciprocity and I think relationships nonharm fundamentally is about reciprocal relationships which are based on integrity, kindness and connection and safety and um uh and sort of sharing this relationship together and all that we do and we have working together in the space. So, it has a collaborative feel to it.
And I think the minute you end up with this feeling of like uh it doesn’t feel reciprocated, I think that’s where you start to get this harm experience because it just feels something feels off and you don’t know what but it suddenly feels a little bit onesided or did I did I miss did am I reading this you know did I did I miss what am I because you can feel it’s not only what people do say. I think what we notice is it’s like what people don’t say, what they don’t offer. And I think that is where it’s the more subtle version of harm can come about. And this is what they say with child abuse or abuse. It’s not the acts of violence which necessarily cause the problem. I mean, that does obviously cause problems and the unpredictability of it, but it’s in some ways harder when people are neglected. Children are neglected. It’s harder to prove you don’t have the bruises and the broken bones. So, it’s sort of a different thing.
Yeah, neglect is a huge core wound that many of us have along with, you know, abuse. And I’m trying to think of these other core wounds, but yeah, neglect is, yeah, it’s it’s not as noticeable. And and I just the other comment when you talked about watching the politicians on TV. Yeah. Three minutes. That’s that’s great. I don’t know if I could have made it that much. Usually I start yelling at the TV. Not yell but commenting on the TV and annoying people around me because it’s just it it is too much uh a lot of times you know. Okay.
Uh so uh did you find these did you find these okay any of them make sense worth worth reading or in this context or not and you know the go ahead so so what I’ve done is I’ve said sum sum up the fi the low jung slogans into five slogans just so for sake of brevity here everything can become the path don’t wait for perfect conditions joy conflict failure illness success and uncertainty are all opportunities to train your mind. So train all mis transform all mishaps into the path of awakening. Yes.
To turn your attention inward first instead of blaming, judging or trying to change others. Examine your own reactions and take responsibility for your part. drive all blames into one as opposed to drive all blames into Juan which is when one perma children speaks about that. Why is everybody blaming Juan? It’s like yeah, you know, nice part. Um yeah, put others at the center.
Cultivate genuine concern for other people’s well-being. Practice generosity, empathy, and the willingness to bear discomfort for the benefit of others. be grateful to everyone and practice sending and taking. So that’s um tongland practice where you are um you are breathing in their pain and you you’re taking on their pain and you are sending out the antidote ease in some way. So that’s that. And then four, hold your views lightly. Your stories about yourself, other people and the world are not reality. Stay curious. Be willing to let go of certainty. Regard all things as dreams. And five, keep practicing, especially when it’s hard.
Mind training isn’t something you do only when you’re calm or inspired. The difficult moments are the practice. If you can practice even when distracted, you are well trained. So the five these five capture the spirit of low jung remarkably well. Use everything. Start with yourself. Care for others. Hold your stories lightly. Keep practicing.
So the Lojong Lojong slogans aren’t primarily about becoming calmer or happier. It’s about becoming less self-centered and more useful. Peace of mind is seen as a consequence of the shift, not the goal itself.
These are really beautiful and um admirable practices for the most part.
And this is Mahayana. The only thing I want to point out and boy I have a hard time of letting go of those holding those those views you know still working on that one for sure but I do want to point out uh in the Mahayana one of the things I caution against is is um they have one of the precepts is even though which is really weird they say know when to hold the precepts and when to break them but that’s really no different than ordinary worldling I think you know because um but but what what I want to say is I think they have one that you’re not supposed to speak um you’re not supposed to speak badly of others or something like this. You’re not supposed to, you know, ever. And so wait a second. I mean I see that where the wisdom is in that. But one thing is if someone is actually abusing someone else, they need to be called out. You know, that needs to be that needs to be called out for what it is. A spade a spade. you can’t just uh not speak unless I I guess there are skillful ways to do it in another way with without you know speaking ill of one someone or blaming someone. The other thing is I just want to caution some people that have like an inferiority complex probably not Wendy and I but like to take on uh this martyrhood you know or having some kind of okay I’m going to be the world’s savior and just take on everybody’s crap. That’s that’s not what they’re saying. But I just wanted to say that, you know, if it’s if it’s interpreted in the wrong way and not done done in the way that it’s supposed to, I think with this, I think it could fall into martyr or u messiahood kind of thing, too. And that’s not what these are pointing to. You know what I mean?
So, we have to be careful, especially some personality types that are quick to blame themselves for everything and little me and you know, I can never do anything right and I’m always wrong. You know, this type of thing. So we got to be careful if that that personality type comes into play here I find. But for a lot of us that’s you know that’s not the case and these are these are beautiful.
So um so don’t malign others don’t talk about injured limbs. So don’t dwell on or publicize others faults or weaknesses which I’m not very good at because I get really hurt by that. Don’t ponder others. Don’t obsess over other people’s shortcomings. Don’t seek others pain as the limbs of your own happiness.
So that’s great. Those are way more nuanced than I’ve heard them put before.
Actually, those are those the way to put it that is I think is more helpful than the other translations I’ve heard of those. Yeah.
Um there is one which he says don’t be a martyr. Let me just um so there is don’t act with a twist. Don’t abandon any hope of fruition. Don’t seek praise or gain. Don’t expect applause.
Um uh but in the in those long gen uh the long you just read too. Yeah.
So so it’s something like you know don’t make an identity out of self-sacrifice. I think that’s what you’re sort of saying. It doesn’t say that but that is that is somewhere in there because that’s acting with a twist. That’s not being sincere for sure. Oh, we’re at time, Josh.
We are. This just flew by again. So, yeah, this was great. This was this was great. There’s so much I mean, non harm is is so massive and it uh can boil down kind of all of our actions. Are they, you know, are they being harmful or not in in a sense? Are, you know, it’s not as black and white as that. Uh there’s a lot of nuance too and there’s a lot of subtleties, but it’s this is this is the core of a lot of ethics and I’m glad we got to talk a little bit about it. So I’ve just I was just looking up know when to break the sleep precepts. Um maybe that’s a Zen thing. Maybe that’s a Zen thing.
There is a Mahayana principle that can look like that from the outside.
So, it’s not know when to bro break break the precepts. It’s don’t make the rules for the goal. Don’t mistake the rules for the goal. Let compassion guide the rules, not the other way around.
See, that’s a better reframing than know when to keep the preexpects and when to break them. That’s kind of a more straightforward Zen approach to saying the same thing you did, which is way more nuanced. I find it maybe helpful. Maybe not as direct and clear, but Yeah.
And but it Yeah. Well, actually we’ve come to the end. We’re over time.
All right, we got to go. Everybody be well and keep keep your nonharm hand strong.
Yeah. And you know, just be ordinary, whatever that is. All right.
Bye, everybody.
Integrating Presence 