My apologies for the disjointedness while my internet connection kept dropping and dropping during the live recording
In this forty-second installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion intending to turn attention to our ethical foundation of the five precepts: training to refrain from harming; dishonesty/untruthfulness; taking/receiving what’s not given (thieving); sexual (energy) misconduct; and intoxicants while actually ending up more addressing earnestness, hurt, conditioning from upbringing, misunderstandings around attachment, needs in relationships and more.
In our last Q and A Wendy mentioned that “a few years ago, I was really earnest. I’ve always been a bit of a goody-two-shoes type of person. I can get pretty earnest and pretty serious about being good. Like, ‘We’ve got to be good, folks. We can’t just be out having fun — we’ve got to be good.'”
Wendy’s statement kind of raised an eyebrow for me. In this Q and A on the five precepts and ethics we unpack this comment of Wendy’s along with exploring: directly seeing and knowing the purpose and benefits of precepts; “may I” vs. “shoulds” and expectations; excuses / justifications; how belonging, self-deception, and trust / (self-)confidence factor in; exploring (unconscious) distortions around views like: “only this is what’s best (for me)” and/or “this and this needs to happen (first) and (to) be a certain way for me and things to be OK” and of course how all this relates to meditation practice
A selection from the blog post Faith that Straightens the Mind:
Confidence is required for the establishment of virtue. Without confidence and trust, one does not firmly resolve to act rightly.
If you cannot trust your own mind to remain upright in moral conduct, then uprightness will never be sustained. If you do not trust yourself to refrain from false speech, your speech will remain crooked. If you do not trust yourself to refrain from taking what is not given, bodily actions will continue to incline in that direction. If one does not establish firm restraint over lust, sexual misconduct will recur again and again. If you keep giving excuses to break precepts, the mind will always justify its own crookedness. If you do not trust in the benefits of the precepts, transgressions will keep recurring.
Moreover, if one continues to deceive oneself—pretending that the precepts are being maintained when they are not—then the cycle of transgression continues without interruption.
One must have confidence in one’s own ability to uphold the precepts; without that trust, their observance will never be firmly established. And if one lacks that confidence, the mind can remain crooked.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Audio: Five Ethical Precepts | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #42
Past chats with Wendy:
Ai assisted somewhat cleaned up transcript:
Hey, wholeness. Welcome.
This is Josh of Integrating Presence and today I’m not yet joined by Wendy Nash. I apologize. I had the times a little bit off several times now. So, we originally changed the first time and then the second time I accidentally put a half an hour later. So, I’ll give Wendy a little bit of time. to get here.
She might have been under the impression too that it was a little bit later.
So the this one is called the five ethical precepts.
So I’ll just go ahead and read the description I have here.
In this 42nd installment on the ongoing series live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion. Turning attention to our ethical foundation of the five precepts. training to refrain from harming, dishonesty, untruthfulness, taking receiving what’s not given, thieving, sexual energy, misconduct, and intoxicants. In our last Q&A, Wendy mentioned that a few years ago, I was really earnest. I’ve always been a bit of a goody two shoes type of person. I can get pretty earnest and pretty serious about being good. Like, we’ve got to be good, folks. We can’t just be out having fun. We’ve got to be good.
Wendy’s statement kind of raised an eyebrow for me. In this Q&A on the five precepts and ethics, we plan to unpack this comment of Wendy’s along with exploring directly seeing and knowing the purpose and benefits of precepts. And here’s Wendy.
Hey, you’re on.
We had a time zone difference. So, I’m very sorry about that. Sorry everybody for being a little bit late.
It It’s okay. And like I I just got done saying first we’ve we changed the original time and then I made a mistake in the in the description putting it at 8:30 instead of 8 central European. So no big deal. So I was right in the middle of reading the the intro and I’ll just back up just a little bit and and won’t reread the five precepts. I’m I’m assuming most people are familiar with those, but we we can maybe get into we’ll get into each individual one.
Anyway, so I I said in our last Oh, by the way, u the the standard formalities here. Sorry. Wendy, what’s going on?
And how’s it going where you’re at today? oh, M. Reed is on the call. Woohoo. Great to see you here again.
Likewise. You’re always fantastic to have. It’s something it means so much, isn’t it? when somebody you know regularly joins us now even though we’re late we dis anything kind of well life so it’s always just such a joy to have Emily here with us what’s going on well I I spoke at a parliamentary inquiry yesterday oh wow and so as a witness you know it’s like I don’t know what you call it in maybe the US but you have some legislation and then you write a submission and then you might get called back if the committee decides to be a witness. So I was a witness and so there’s like the left wing and the right wing on the political spectrum and they’re playing tit for tat through me. It was just like oh wow this is really awful. This is very interesting from a dharma perspective.
4 minutes, 1 second How do you navigate that space? How do you remain loving and kind? And you know, I’ve started to really think about how people are really trapped in their minds and this is where we’re going wrong. It’s like, and we’re all trapped in our minds cuz I was like, whoa. And I was, you know, on my way home, I was just going talk to me about happy chickens to my friend. I just need something, please laugh on me.
And yeah, because I needed I needed to feel like human beings were around me. And I just happened to been to a very very senior politician as I walked out of the building. And I thought, I do not like this man. I know a lot of politicians, so they’re not all like that, but it’s just like and it’s hard to to not hate them or really dislike them. and to see them as human. You know, this is the 5 minutes, 1 second dilemma. This is what we’re working with. So, that’s what’s going on for me.
Josh, a bit more of an answer than perhaps you wanted.
It’s it reminds me of that old Ramdas, this the this spiritual guru who’s no longer with us before he died because of all the the president in America. He had a picture of him on his altar because there was so much hate and he said he loved everything, everybody. I mean, that was his path.
It’s a little bit we don’t have time to go into that now, but I I know what you mean with this this polit. It’s almost like some of them feed on that hatred, you know. It’s more to get attention and power. even it doesn’t matter if it’s bad, you know, just to get all those eyeballs and attention and energy on them, you know, and this will fit perfectly into to to ethical precepts too, you know. So, I I think that’s that’s great. And yes and I would just say the the political process is a little bit different in America. No parliament. And it’s interesting how you were so personally involved in this process. Usually in America it’s it’s not like that in the Congress as far as I know. But maybe for another time.
We’ll see. Well, cool. Okay. I’ll jump back into this. in our last Q&A I’m reading here again. In our last Q&A, Wendy mentioned that a few years ago I was really earnest. I’ve always been a bit of a goodie two shoes type of person. I can get pretty earnest and pretty serious about being good. Like, we’ve got to be good, folks.
Oh, he’s gone. Sorry about that, everybody. I don’t know where he’s gone.
I’m hoping he’ll come back. So, have you ever found yourself being earnest? And do you know what the word means? So, by the word earnest, I see it as that I’m I have this really strong need and desire to be good. And so, I just f because Josh is gone. I’m wondering if it’s me who’s gone. So, can anybody say something so that Emry, can you just say something? Here we are.
There we are. Okay. Was it me who went or you who went? Oh, that’s the other thing. I I don’t know. but my connection on this island has been dropping off. If if it happens again just we’ll it will come back. We just have to be patient. It just takes a few seconds to come back on. So Okay, keep going. So keep going.
All right. and then how belonging, self-deception and trust or self-confidence factor in and exploring unconscious distortions around views like only this is what’s best for me and this and this this and this and this needs to happen first for me to be okay or things need to be a certain way and things for things to be okay and of course how all this relates to meditation practice. So that was a big mouthful there. There’s so much to explore. We could probably dedicate an entire show to each one of these these five precepts of nonharming.
refrain from dishonesty and untruthfulness. refrain from taking what’s not given. not misusing sexual energy. or sexual misconduct and refraining from intoxicants. And I will just say, Wendy, you’re I don’t know if there’s the this your sound is okay, but there was something you did last time that made even more crystal clear. So, I was just wondering about that. Let me change my microphone.
Oh, is that what it is? Okay.
Probably what it is cuz I was running late and I was like, quick, jump on. That’s okay. So, let me just check my settings.
Sure. and why Wendy does that. I will just say start off by saying when it comes to precepts from my own personal experience I did not see the value of these before I it was too late basically and this is a training this is not like a thou shalt not this is a gradual training so it’s really all based on nonharming but we’ll go into that because I have some friends that you know they’re they’re still hunters or you know that people are involved in in waring now I guess.
and so let me throw it back to Wendy here to see Well, can you hear me? Does the sound sound any different? Because I can’t see my microphone. So try it.
It’s okay. Let’s just see. Is that any different?
No, but that’s good enough. windy. I think I’ll I’ll I’ll jump I’ll leave and I’ll come back. Okay. We’re just here like winging it here.
Yes, we are. This is live in real time.
So So Wendy, you’ll come back and with with nonharming.
Okay.
And then we’re here this. All right. I don’t think it’s made any difference.
I don’t know what it is. It’s like your software isn’t picking it up. Yeah, it sounds a little bit better. So, I think this is definitely adequate. The post-prouction usually fixes a lot of or makes it even clearer. So, all right.
Apologize for the technical difficulty or the you know, I guess maybe it’s my perfectionism.
I don’t know. But this is this is this is sufficient.
The only one is Oh, no. There it is.
There it is. Okay. It’s called something else on my thing. That’s why I couldn’t find it. We got there. We got there. Okay, that’s super clear now.
Okay, sorry about that. Sorry about that. So, I think, you know, we’re talking about being earnest. That’s the fundamental thing rather than the precepts because I think if we get caught in the precepts, I think that’s actually where the problem is. If I can be so bold.
Well, tell me what you mean by earnest, too. Let’s let’s give a definition of this.
I think for me, it’s being really serious about being good.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that to me is what it is. I mean in Oscar Wild’s time, the importance of being earnest was actually a reference.
So today we would use the term gay which means homosexual.
So that’s that shift. It’s exactly that same language shift. So instead of saying homosexual, we say gay.
so but what what but with earnest? So what would be the o? So I don’t so the importance of being earnest. So that’s what that was about. So that’s what that the importance of being earnest back in Oscar Wild’s day. That’s what it meant.
And then Oh yeah, I guess. Yeah. So that’s what that meant. Yeah.
But but today well the way I use earnest is that I sort of had I didn’t have a sense of humor. I sort of felt like I had to live tightly within some ethical guideline what was good. And I was always having this argument in my mind on always kind of feeling like hemmed in by the need to be really good to ensure that I was a good Buddhist or a good oh yeah whatever.
But I think it depends on how joyful you are. So joy is very very what do you call it?
antidotal anti antidotally in antidotes earnestness and I I just think so what would be it’s like there’s some element of fun you forget to have fun and it’s all about being serious to have fun like you can’t laugh at yourself or you can’t I don’t know Emmery Reed, you are here on the call. Okay.
Would you describe that as well? I know I’d like to hear yours. Yes.
Yes, please. Let me read this definition of earnest, though. Earnest is a cl meaning as an adjective. It says when used as a descriptive word, earnest implies that someone is showing deep and sincere conviction.
yeah. Resulting from a sincere and intense conviction, not light, playful, or trivial, she made an earnest effort to complete the project.
I think that’s right. But I think that there is this it’s this element of intensity, doing something seriously with or with full force. Yes.
Yes. Yes. And I think if you if you feel like you’re always living within ethical guidelines.
So I thought it was very interesting that you went and you talked about the precepts because I wasn’t talking about the precepts at all when I talked about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just reminded me and I Yeah. But that’s right. And I think that’s the mistake. And I think that would be if I may dare to put it forward on the counter just you know as a flavor. Could it be that you are very earnest because you immediately put the two together whereas I go they’re actually very different and it might be just cuz I’m Australian and and whatever but to me okay how do you describe earnest you know like I said I had to look it up I don’t even know yeah the the seriousness okay so my teacher mentions that we shouldn’t take our suffering so seriously seriously in in a sense and what that means is that there’s nothing super special about the way I suffer right that there’s millions of others that have suffered in the exact same way because a lot of times we want to cling 15 minutes, 1 second on to oh but this is my suffering you know this is my special breed of how bad I’ve got it kind of thing you know what I mean but as far as I think taking the our practice seriously we have to take something seriously ly now ourselves. I mean, yeah, now this is I think this righteousness, you know, being overly righteous about something is is maybe not the way to go, you know, but I think the the danger is if we don’t take anything seriously, then it turns into maybe a type of solopism and then there’s no really incentive to do to really think anything has any consequences. You know, I wonder about the slippery soap. And the reason I’ve come from this is because of my the past way that I used to be in the world, you know. So, I would imagine if I wasn’t the kind of the way I was and the trouble I got into and the crash and burn style that maybe I wouldn’t come out with a little more force towards and in and the in the situation that we seem like with the Epstein things, you know, with with that and all the corruption and things in the world. Yeah. And but I do and at the on the other hand I see your your point of taking it too seriously and not being lighthearted and and playful. I think playfulness is great, you know, and I will I will agree. I’m a little bit kind of stodgy, you know. I’ve got like this Germanic American background and I was raised Lutheran and we sat in church and we didn’t make a peep and you never expressed yourself like individually.
And then living in Denmark, it’s kind of, you know, kind of the same thing where absolutely a little bit, you know, yeah, it it to me it’s refreshing from America though where everybody’s trying to stand out and get attention and have all the eyeballs on them. But yeah, so yeah, we can we can explore this a little bit. So if we want to go more in that direction instead of the actual precepts themselves, my I just don’t want the danger to be that we’re not that they’re disregarding the the value and importance of precepts either.
It’s a practice. I mean, it’s just a way of relating and being in the world that’s for my benefit and happiness. And I noticed that since I’ve started doing these with a little bit more just as a practice that it just seems so obvious to me now. But yeah, I also don’t want to be like on a soapbox preaching to people, you know, I would like to see what people do here. so I’ll throw it back to you before I I launch into something else here.
So I what is it that I am describing? I think you know often when we’re in the dharma centers and we come in and we start what energy would you call that?
Well, there’s so much right there are the people that are this strict. Okay.
But this this ties back to what you started about to begin with that a lot of our experience I find the most is a 18 minutes, 1 second story about reality. The narrative of what’s happening instead of what’s actually happening, right? There’s a story about what’s happening. And if the narrative is there, so people have their own way of framing things and the story they tell about the way things are and the way things should be, you know, and yeah, so that’s I think that’s that’s one big element. And a lot of the work is just actually communicating with people to find out what that is, where they’re at, where I’m at, where we’re at, and what we’re doing here, and how we go about it. I don’t know. Maybe. So, so, so you know, I guess I sort of thought about it because I came to Buddhism like a lot of people and meditation like a lot of people. I was having a bad time in life. Somebody told me I should take it up. So, I did and I loved it. And then I was trying to fit me and kind of who I was into this new persona. I think there’s something in that there. And I so Emry has said know thyself and be tr real true full authentic full authenticity living no emotional attachments of desire etc of being right etc seeing things as they are allows for what’s needed etc not filling a narrative so I think that fills in that but there is this trying to fit myself into it and I I sort of was very I guess a bit self-righteous in there and a bit good and bit try hard and there’s sort of like an a bit intense and it’s like a little bit frozen in the mind and so I found myself feeling like I had to be good in order to feel that I was and I’ve dropped out a little bit here.
Okay, you’re on. You’re still here. Oh, he’s gone. So, Emry Reed, it’s just you and me.
so just to continue with that. So, I went into the meditation centers 20 odd years ago and I tried to fit myself in and then I found myself being very serious about what it meant to fit in.
and I tried to do all the rules and I just realized that I didn’t have a sense of humor anymore. I didn’t feel like life was light.
I just felt there was a certain heaviness and I’ve seen a lot of people and you know there’s this obviously joy is one of the big it’s the four awakening factors and the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu they are both really big into joy because I think being earnest in the way that I imagine it has this kind of this is the right way to be and it’s demure and it’s self-eacing in a kind of staltifying kind of way. So that’s what I meant.
Yeah. And and I get that. And by the way, it dropped out again for about 10 15 seconds. So I it got most of it though. And yeah, that’s this is a good thing. So then I would ask Wendy, well, what’s what’s the alternative then? And why I guess why did you feel so like you the the the rules because yes when you’re when you’re actually in a meditation setting you know or a monastery setting there there are rules just like everywhere in life right I mean some there’s a little bit less rules and things like this but so yes and I will agree obviously that they do seem way more confining than what we’re used to in daily life. And I think one of the reasons not to def def necessarily defend, it’s so that everybody there can do an internal practice because then that’s more of what it’s like instead of a like an outward- facing practice where we’re we’re interacting. So then we’re kind of it’s it’s a container so we can go inward and do do inner work. Now, however, I would say at a monastery and depending on which one it is, there’s a little bit more challenging because people are not doing as much meditation and they’re they’re interacting with each other and they’re doing task in lots of different other activities going on and meditation is only a small part of it. So, that’s where it’s it’s real different and yes and and I will agree I’ve seen the same things Winnie was talking about and I’ve felt that in myself as well. So the I guess the way I the way I I address that is okay how maybe how much of this is for the external and how much is it for internal how much of this is a temporary container for training and will that in the long run lead to more welfare and happiness and and and well-being and and we could just say fun, right? and how much is it going to detract from that? You know, so these are all questions. So to to take on a temporary more constraint and stodgginess maybe or seriousness in order to then in the long run then once release from this, you know, so these are all kind of really complicated things. Yeah. or how much will that condition me to then continue that way where it’s not where it actually contributes to what we don’t want, you know? So, yeah. And and how are we holding it all, you know? Are we are we taking the rules are there but do we have to take them up so seriously and so earnestly like you’re saying or can we hold those lightly too and say okay now it makes sense to adhere to this rule hold it tightly or this this one okay this rule doesn’t even apply right now so I don’t even need to be bothered with it so I don’t know there’s it’s such a rich complex dynamic when we when we talk about these things and this is part of the training too. I mean, how can I think we can still have fun and not be too serious if we’re nonharming, you know, with with we’re not stealing. I mean, these are kind of basic things that I don’t think interfere with with with that we don’t have to take so seriously because some of them are really second nature for all of us, you know. and thieving and then also, you know, alcohol intoxicants. That’s that’s a tough one. That’s the one I had the hardest one with. our sexual energy and that’s a kind of a a gray area for a lot of people too. You know, what does that even mean? But yeah, so I threw plenty of stuff out there.
I you know, one of the I don’t know if I said before totally being playful is good. And I think it’s the playfulness that I think is really important. You know, it doesn’t have to be so intense or something. But with regards to addiction, so Josh has popped off there. it’s been a while since I’ve gone to a monastery or a a meditation center.
But what I’ve started to see is that instead of talking about giving up alcohol, cigarettes, drugs for the fifth precept, but instead to talk about phone addiction and device addiction and app addiction. So, and that one I would have to say is much harder because unlike alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, you can put them down and still get on in society.
Whereas actually our phones and devices, you cannot function very well without that. Like it’s a it’s a big thing. And that our seniors are very challenged by the fact because none of them are online.
It is. And again, Wendy, I’m going to switch over. Speaking of devices, I’m going to switch over to a hot spot now because it dropped off. So, I missed your transition from what I said into devices. so I I missed that whole thing.
Precepts and addiction. So, I just going winging it, Josh.
No, this is great. No, this is actually Yeah. So, I think this is it. Yeah. So, I think this is it. When you’re really earnest, it’s like it’s got to work really perfectly.
And when and when you’re more agile and more confident in your dharma, then I think then you can just kind of wing it. And mere says, “Is it a trap?”
Being earnest. The point is I think it is a trap and I think you can think that you’re very Buddhist and and be a good Buddhist.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that that’s not being Buddhist because it’s about spontane you you know I find the Dalai Lama tremendously inspiring.
Yeah. you know, it’s so you said the the what were you saying right before Emir’s comment? The it was about addiction to the devices and how we can’t actually live in a connect in our worlds with our families and friends and and people without a device. We can’t go anywhere.
It is. But there was something between that and Reed’s comment. And yeah.
So so this is this is well maybe it’ll come back here but yeah start talking about this because this is this is what Oh no. You you talked about well authenticity and but talk about the devices. Yeah. What what kind of advice do you have? oh no hang on now. I used to give it I used to give advice about devices, but I have long since given up because I’m an addict. Uhhuh.
And I would like not to be, but I think I have such a desperate love to be it’s a desperate yearning to be loved that I’m like somebody might like me and I get a full-on dopamine hit. And I think that’s that’s it. You know, at at its base, addiction is not feeling confident that who I am is is okay. You know, it’s full ego experience.
And but but we do want to feel loved and we want to feel safe and we want to feel like we don’t have to carry everything and we want to feel like we’re able to do things and act on on the things that are important to us.
Yes. And to me, this is again, this is where going inside.
I mean, it’s easier said than than realized. But if the reason I’m looking a lot of times for dopamine hits is because I think that I’m not worthy enough or that I’m not likable and that I need to get that kind of verification, something from outside myself. Now it does seem like maybe a consolation prize that I go inside and say no there is inherent worth and worthiness and likability and it’s not dependent on anyone anything from outside to get that you know now that’s easier said than done and it does feel like if I if that’s only coming from within then that’s some kind of consolation but I I really feel that bring builds up a a foundation and a reservoir so where I’m not so depleted and I’m looking outside of it for for myself. You know, one of the things I found too with this device thing is actually going into a retreat when getting that one of the hardest things I ever did was giving all electronic devices away for a month. I mean absolutely insane how much I was dependent that that I realize that I’m dependent on these for my sense of reality even you know it it’s really eyeopening and yeah it’s a rude awakening really and but it was a really good really good challenging experience that that is very worthwhile because you see the depth of it we don’t really until that kind of absence is totally there 100% don’t really see the depths of how how dependent we are on these things now. Yeah.
Well, we’re we’re made to feel that that that we are dependent. I mean, humans have lived for millennia without devices. I think Josh is about to drop off. you here Josh?
so I think we are, you know, anyway, maybe maybe the answer here isn’t to talk about addiction and the five precepts.
The purpose is to talk about let’s not go into addiction, Josh.
Yes. Let’s not let’s talk about well whatever we were supposed to be talking about.
Yes. And to to go back to your your what you mentioned here and now I’ve got it these well we we did talk about self- belonging right how self- belonging and then self-confidence and trust factor in how we can deceive ourselves too and this notion that I have to have what’s I have to have this to be okay basically things need to be this way before I can be okay Right.
And I have to have things in a certain way before they can be okay. And this is this is the thing that can happen sometime for sure. You’re right.
Like I have to have it this way or it’s not okay. yeah, actually it’s very interesting because a friend of mine was talking about, you know, she’s got this kind of on again, off again thing happening at at a in a relationship and and as you say that, I’m going, “Oh, she needs this relationship to feel that good about herself.” And I keep trying to bring in other ideas and dharma and like not overtly but you know how to think about the mind and she’s so stuck in the way that no but this is how it is and this is what I need to do for me and that doesn’t work for me and this sort of stuff and sorry but I’m a bit orange here with my light.
Okay.
I actually got like a whole lot of orange paint. I’m a little bit red. So, there was a We had a program called The Partridge Family in the 70s.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember. I mean, and Susan Susan Day one one time she actually ate so many carrots that she turned orange and they couldn’t get her rid of it. So, all the other actors in that episode had to make up all their orange. Wow. I didn’t know that was a thing.
There you go. So, but it but it does I think there is this kind of at what point do we ask ourselves you know what do I need to feel whole because I before I met my partner I tried to be single and I was actually really miserable and I tried to not be attached and that was when I was very earnest and I I think I found I think there is something about as a good Buddhist I’m not supposed to yearn for connection and it was also to do with my own family history. So it was like I actually got my family history of what it is to be a good person and shoehorn that into being Buddhist. I shouldn’t depend on anyone. I should be able to do it on my own. I should be independent. as if we’re not, you know, dependent arising doesn’t exist and we’re not all completely embedded in our relationships. It’s completely nuts. But actually I was just deeply hurt by my solitude and loneliness and I couldn’t get out of that because I was sort of frozen.
And I think and and so I think we can take on this Buddhist identity and the med good meditator and we can go through spiritual bypassing and last week I had an insight where you know where you see yourself you see yourself outside yourself and you see yourself and I went to a a work function in the evening and I was I’m going to let you know Josh I was a bit of a Because what happened is that my ego took over the sense of sort of some sort of spirituality clarity thing and I was obnoxious and I gave some poor woman a bit of hell. but it was cuz actually I was really hurt by something that she had done and she and her friends had done. So I was using this mind state for some kind of crazy wisdom excuse.
And I think that when you you use your ego through spirituality, I think you can be like that. And I think that that’s the same with being this serious, earnest kind of Buddhisty person. So that’s all I was wanting to say.
It it’s really wow. It’s so fascinating, you know. I would say I’m coming from a different place where my upbringing there was no kind of okay, this is how you do it to be a good person. There was like I was constantly in trouble acting out. You know, my I didn’t have any role models. The role models I had were not not good to to learn any kind. I didn’t know ethic. I laughed at ethics. I thought this this is completely ridiculous. Why should I be bothered with that? That’s for squares and you know that’s not that’s not anything. So, it came from a more kind of self-destructive place of being to then crashing and burning and saying, “Oh, wait a second. This is not stupid. This is actually, you know, this is how most people actually are when they’re when they’re okay.” And then this actually leads to some well-being, you know. and I didn’t see it before. I I was had no idea that that it actually you you you cause and effect basically, right? The things I was doing. Well, no wonder. So that’s where I’m coming from. So it’s a little bit different. And then now you go into the the crazy wisdom thing. And that’s right. And I think this is why it’s so important for the four brahma viharas, the four like best ways for relate relating to everything basically. And I think those are a great counterbalance to maybe some dryness and roughness of precept training, you know, like being kind to ourselves that we fell down and we got it wrong again. that we we harmed and we didn’t mean to but u so not beating ourselves up or then saying okay I’m done with all this throw I don’t I don’t care I’ll just do whatever I want because it’s too hard or it’s ridiculous it’s it’s too much earnestness or whatever so this is where I think the the brahavar has come in here for relating to ourselves and I I know what you mean we talked about this several times now about this hurt you know and there is a kind of a self-justification when it comes to hurt because that is the kind the hardest thing to do you know and again when I found when I can remember to do so when I’m hurt the Brahma vajara is you know compassion self-compassion right there you know because and it’s for me because did no oh Josh is about to drop off so before as Josh is going to drop off any second now I’ve actually been thinking about duka and that another way of translating duka is feeling hurt or feeling an ache and I think that when we feel hurt and we don’t want to own it because we are distanced from it I think it can come I think we experience it as a kind of a I think that’s where bypassing happens when we really actually just incredibly hurt and we don’t want to own that hurt. And so and the other one is ache. You know, we have heartache and I think that that can also be just another word for duka. I think it’s a more embodied work way of thinking about duka rather than as this abstract idea.
So that would be that. And Emry, I would love your thoughts on this. And I don’t know if I said it last time we spoke, but there you go. I’m hoping Josh is going to be back. Otherwise, it’s just you and me, babe, until the end of the session. So, here’s Josh.
I’m back again. He’s back. We’re almost Sorry about this. Yeah.
What you missed what you missed is that and I don’t know if I talked about it last time but I was talking about hurt and how I’ve sort of started substituting the word duka with the word hurt and ache because both of those have this kind of emotional physical aspect to it.
So instead of using the word duker and I think if we use duka it becomes another bypassy kind of thing. I don’t that’s duker. I don’t do that. But if we I found it really helpful when I start being like I was the other day with those that woman. I was a bit of a and it was actually because I was hurt and I didn’t want to acknowledge that and I had some crazy wisdom thing going on as well. So I think we can get really caught about our idea of what it means to be enlightened because it was one of those enlightening experiences. And the other thing about that experience is that I thought, you know, you can have any level of clarity you like, but if you don’t have compassion with it, if you don’t have the love and joy and spaciousness around it, it’s not worth anything. It really isn’t worth anything. I I don’t care how much.
Oh, not again.
Okay. Back. That that only that only dropped for that only dropped for a second.
They do. Oh, is like and M Reed has gone too.
Oh no. So you’re you’re you’re you’re so right. when this is this is really important and there’s a Lumpour Ajan Samato he was it was a famous time when he said I don’t want a bunch of bloody Buddhists is what he said. So, I think this is a pro not a problem, but it points to a a potential challenge like you’ve been going on about in a good way that I don’t consider myself a Buddhist per se. I I study and practice this, but it’s not a it’s been turned into a religion by the West and ism. But if you look at it from what I understand, it’s just here’s someone that that that was this is what they did and they shared what they did and they said, you know, check it out for yourself. You know, you have to, you know, if it’s helpful, you know, look into it. This is this is what I found. You have to verify it for yourself and you have to find your own way, you know. So that’s what it’s about and it’s the best way of going about that. Best meaning the optimal way and that includes the heart too. So I think that that is it can people that are really hardline Buddhists they can fall into the traps Wendy you’re talking about. So again holding it lightly and eventually all that has to be let go of anyway right the raft of dharma once you’ve crossed them the further shore you have to you don’t carry around that raft that took you there you put it down eventually that will be what happens anyway. So you take up what’s helpful, but don’t hold it too tightly, but also don’t let go of it when right in the middle of when you need it to keep from drowning either. now you also go into relationships, too. And yes, this is where this is where it’s so not so cut and dry, right? Traditionally, are you Yeah, you’re still there. Okay.
You’re Yeah. Yeah. I’m here. I’m here.
The the the attachment, right? They they in Buddhism it’s not like this attachment but then psychology has co-opted this and say you have to have healthy attachment styles you know so it’s like okay yeah whatever I just I just want to talk about healthy attachment styles that is not the same as attachment in Buddhism exactly and this is where language sorry yeah it’s very important you’re right yes absolutely that’s what I’m getting to yeah one Tibetan called it stickiness and attachment is this like it’s stuck and I’m like, you know, you’ve got that bit of sticky tape that’s stuck to your foot or something or a gum or something.
Yeah. And I think stickiness is kind of like clinging, you know, it doesn’t work for me either, but I think stickiness entanglement. Entanglement. Yes.
Yeah. I think it’s totally there in Exactly.
Attachment stars from a psychological sense is to do with the carer and the child. Usually I’m going to say mom, mom and bub.
Yep. and what that means is you you build this relationship of trust that when the bub wants something there is a sense that the mother will respond and and just attends to the child. So the bids for attention are attended to and when that is reliable enough the child gets a sense that I can actually be safe and as the bub then turns into a toddler then the the toddler can wander off go and explore come back and that’s a secure attachment style. So I just wanted to clarify that that is a completely different Absolutely. It’s so important because people start about getting questions in Buddhist circles about attachment and they they it seems to be a lot of confusion between the psychological version of healthy attachment that language and then you know don’t having attachments in in Buddhism which confuses a lot of people because of the similar language but it’s not anywhere close to the same thing we’re talking about. However, now when we go back to relationships about and this ties into needs, right? So in relationships there’s needs, right? So this is, you know, this is lots of fertile ground for work because what one might perceive as a need might another might perceive as you know I don’t know a demand or being too this and that and that right that okay so where where you know where do we how do we help each other meet each other’s needs in 46 minutes, 1 second relationship but also don’t come along with all the other things like it being either a demand or like thinking that if I just get this this certain way that I want it and have to have it, then everything’s going to be okay, which isn’t a long-term thing for success either because eventually there’ll be situations where we won’t get it how we want it, you know, and then how much is a want and how much is a need, you know? How much are we willing to compromise? How much are we not? You know, there’s so many relationships are so rich for practice and experience. you know, how much similarity and harmony is there and how much is not? How much is that as helpful and how much is not? So, yeah. So when we when we talk about relationships it comes you know it comes to needs I think and compromising and then of course it always comes back to right view you know what is the right view in this situation is this going to lead towards more ache pain or what did you call it hurt we did talk about it because you conflated pain and hurt last time I just remember you’re right thank you so this is it’s a key distinction that’s right how much is this going to lead towards hurt and how is going to lead away from hurt, you know.
So, so just about that about needs and wants, demands, and I’ve thought about that for a long time because I was raised with that there’s a difference between need and want. So, you could never want anything.
You had to sure you can.
No, no, no. You couldn’t have anything if you wanted it. That’s just greedy.
You can’t possibly, you know, this is this very English kind of Sure. Sure.
We can’t. And my parents were my mother was born before both my parents were born before the war and you know I was in England and and there was a lot of deprivation in that time. You just couldn’t do you need it or do you want it? This is an important distinction back in the Oh big time. Oh yeah. And so I grew up and I think this is where that where I have inculcated and shoehorned my own childhood need which is I mustn’t want anything and I kind of became this very good person who didn’t want anything and who wouldn’t would be very cautious about buying anything because well it was a want it wasn’t a need and if I bought a pretty skirt well I was vain and all this sort of stuff and so I think there can be an ex sort of a sense of sort of deni it was very interesting a couple of years ago I really got it where I felt like I was denying myself and and I realized that I I I had actually yeah become full of denial because I was actually really hurt and I think denial and it can be very hard and be very subtle. Now Emry has said earnest what is it that you’re looking searching for etc. Best to drop the trap completely and know your why questions etc. And I personally sorry amid I’m going to disagree with you on this one.
I personally dislike why questions because I think it doesn’t lead us anything. It’s like why am I wearing a black jumper? Why is the sky blue? Like we can talk about it but I think it’s better to ask what or how or where something where you can give a sort of a proper answer to. So with regards to the denial question and want and need and what is sort of a bid for a connection with one person feels like a demand for the other for another is I think a process of mindful inquiry of learning the mistakes. So that woman that I met the other day at the professional event, I just went, “Wow, I was a I cannot do that again.” That is I am I cannot do that. I’ll I’ll go You can do it once, but you can’t. Why?
Yeah.
If I bump into her, I would I would have to say, which I might do on Friday morning, by the way, which I Today’s Thursday.
So I I might see her tomorrow morning, and I might have to say, “Woo!” Wow, I was pretty unpleasant. I’m sorry about that. Like, I owe you a big apology. Oh, was it mean of me? So, I think and and then you end up in a repair and and then you you start to build these relationships. But I think it sort of dig Oh, he’s gone. But I think there is something about how we can deny our own hurts, shift that into a language of non-attachment, and we don’t even realize it, which is I think when you get further on, I think it becomes more and more subtle the forms of attachment and hurt.
And I I have yet to come across anyone personally in my circle that I can see close enough or a teacher or something where I go, yeah, they have no attachment.
Yeah. So, I would certainly love to hear you, Emry, you know, whether you have any questions about that. I would love to know that.
So, what else can I share before Josh comes back? oh, it’s just me again. So, I guess what it it highlights that there’s this dynamic question. He’s back. Fantastic. You missed all that.
It’s okay. I didn’t on on the on the the replay. And yeah, I so apologize for this connection. It’s it’s it’s ridiculous. We’ve this has been happening for the last month, but the next show will be back in the United States. So, this is it won’t it won’t be like this. Apologize. so, I don’t know what you do you want to say here, but I want to while I’m back on and interrupting intruding here like they do in England, right?
Well, you mustn’t you know what what you want. You want to intrude.
So what what I think Wendy was me and Wendy what I enreed was getting at is that the intentionality. So that’s what why so what is the intent behind the action you know what is the intent that was driving and you you mentioned it right why you said what you said to to her although a lot of times we’re not fully it’s coming as a at least it seems sometimes it’s it’s a it’s a lashing out at being hurt right it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a reaction to being hurt so we don’t think or at least in my experience I know that I don’t when I when I react I don’t think I don’t I’m not cognizant or aware of what’s driving my act. It’s it’s it’s a reaction because I’m hurt, you know. They hurt me, I’m hurting them, you know. that’s it’s just kind of a almost an inbuilt unconscious self-defense mechanism. And this comes Go ahead. Sure.
Sorry, just about that. So this woman and what happened and it was not intentional on her part to hurt me. So she arrived and she’s in her I don’t know mid20ies or something maybe late 20s something and she sat with her friends not talking to anybody else in the room and when I was a child I was like you have to go I I wanted to hide as well but no you had to go forward and you had to go and talk to everybody and you had to make sure that you you knew who was there and that’s called having good manners and social grace.
Yeah. And so I was kind of in this space and I use that just as an example to kind of go I had no idea that it had touched this deep deep nerve that I had never even noticed that I even had before. So that’s all I wanted to say, Josh.
And this goes back to Im Reed’s statement about knowing oneself because there’s a classic saying that self-nowledge is rarely good news, right? Because that’s right. It is. And that’s why a lot of people don’t want to do this work because it is shocking and quite unpleasant to see our the things that we haven’t seen before about ourselves and our upbringing and our conditioning. And this again, this is why the heart practices are so helpful with that because it is painful to have to see that and know that. However, in the long run, it’s better because then we have a chance. Did it freeze again? I’m I’m here. I’m here. So, just Josh is obviously going to drop off in about a nancond.
So, I was just thinking about that. You know I often think with meditation and this these insights that what it gives today no drugs what they give today they take tomorrow and you can say that with anger what it gives today it takes tomorrow or like my friend who’s going back to this relationship it gives her a sense of fulfillment but it’s going to take tomorrow whereas with meditation I think oh it’s really awful a lot of the time and you see there going oh my friend who I was helping for a a while and she she and I was meeting her every day cuz she was having a really really tough time and she’s going, “Oh, okay. I’m here.” And it’s only recently she told me she hated all of it, but she did it because that thing is like, “Well, it is getting better.” Yeah, but it was just so unpleasant to own and acknowledge and just go.
She just went, I am such a something something something I was going, “Yeah, I know you’re you’re a bit mean with your husband there.
You’re a bit awful with him. Gosh, you know, I I would have walked out on you.” No uncertain terms. I wouldn’t have put up with any of that rubbish, let me tell you. But a husband, you know, and he has he’s got he’s a challenge, too. But he was very loyal and given they have two small children I think kind of admirable in that regard not entirely many many quirks we all we’re all different you know it’s not like we’re any one thing it’s and it’s always changing no self or something I believe there’s a teaching on it yes and I think we we want given the horrible connectivity issues today on my part here we should probably start wrapping wrapping up. And I think yeah, this it really speaks to to to to tie it all back to meditation. This is the container where it happens to have a laboratory to to to look at this stuff and to to face whatever we’re facing in a in a socially acceptable way, in a healing way. And then yes, even when the times are really challenging, when we come out of it and how we feel going forward is way better than if we just pretended it wasn’t there, ignored it, denied it, and it’s going to c catch up with us anyway, you know. So, yeah, have friends on the path. Ha, have have those we can confide in and practice with and teachers and also do like you’re saying the the joy practices, too, whenever that’s available. So those are those are really supportive and it it does yeah there there’s those to feed and the the pleasantness in order to give the incentive to stay with in in my opinion this is what it’s all about you know because yeah I mean what yeah I don’t know I I don’t need to preach to the choir here but yeah this is this is this is our work and it doesn’t have to it doesn’t have always have to slog through and be horrible. either. You know, there’s lots of joy on the path, too, and there’s lots of aha moments and epiphies and and and kind of just spontaneous well-being and it’s gradual for a lot of people too, right?
Yeah.
I think gradual is better than the spontaneous insight because I think it’s more grounded. you get better at cuz I think the only other part that I would add and we’re at time here is that it is about noticing kind of how you experience what it is that you’re doing so that you can learn from it so you can do it once but not twice on that note I’m going to say and thank you very much everybody have a great time until we are here back online Hey, thanks everyone.
Thanks everybody. And yes, speaking of spontaneity, there was a little bit of spontaneity here with all the drops and the the things, but I think we did it well and show some realness on on our parts, I guess. whatever.
If that’s the worst thing that we have to worry about, let me tell you, we don’t have anything to worry about.
Yeah, exactly. Worry is the worst kind of fantasy anyway. Oh, no. All right.
Let’s see if you’re on here.
1:00:09 1 hour, 9 seconds And yeah, how about that for irony of ending? Have you We’re still live. We’re still alive. Yeah, that’s the irony. So 1:00:16 1 hour, 16 seconds we got to really end
Integrating Presence 