[Note: There will likely be no Meditation Q and A with Wendy Nash for February and March 2026. Perhaps consider it a type of delayed winter holiday break]
In this thirty-ninth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into Hiri and Ottappa. Hiri is often translated as moral shame, awe and conscience. Ottappa as moral fear, fear of wrongdoing, moral dread, compunction, respect. Together they are the bright Guardians of the World
Wendy and I welcome all to engage with progressing towards clarifying and understanding Hiri and Ottappa from various teachings and from our own lives servings as foundational support for meditation practice and well being. And, in turn, how our meditation practice helps strengthen Hiri and Ottappa.
A list of further importances of Hiri and Ottappa (– although some of these we did not get too –) from our own experience (and beyond) like: the ups and downs involved, challenges, a related dream I recently had, successes, (lack of) progress, inversions / reversals, (balancing out new age) misunderstandings and dismissals, hypocrisy, taboos, contemplation, accountability, getting support, and how Hiri and Ottappa relate to the five precepts.
Please chime in in the comments on what we got right and what we fell short on. Or share rectifying resources. Helping clarify our misunderstands helps us and the audience
Ai summarizes this chat thus followed by takeaways:
Josh Dippold and Wendy Nash explore the concepts of hiri and ottappa in meditation, discussing their significance in ethical behavior and self-perception. They delve into the complexities of goodness, intention, and the impact of shame and guilt on personal growth. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of understanding the craving for self-image and the role of mindfulness in navigating emotions like anger and hurt. Through personal anecdotes and insights, they highlight the need for education and awareness in fostering a compassionate society.
Takeaways
- Hiri and Ottappa are essential for ethical meditation practice.
- Being good is not solely defined by behaviors.
- The craving to see oneself as good can lead to inner conflict.
- Intention drives actions, but hiri reflects moral conscience.
- Shame and guilt can be both constructive and destructive.
- Training behaviors is crucial for ethical living.
- Anger often stems from feeling hurt and unsafe.
- Humor can provide perspective in difficult situations.
- Education is vital for fostering compassion in society.
- Meditation helps in processing emotions and reducing regrets.
Some references / resource links:
- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_23.html
- https://www.abhayagiri.org/reflections/1340-hiri-and-ottappa
- https://www.suttas.com/hiri-and-ottappa.html
- https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sharing-on-hiri-otappa/172
- Shame & Compunction — https://overcast.fm/+AAuqpFXgMxQ
- Protectors of the World — https://overcast.fm/+AAvZro7x-q4
- Compunction & Awe — https://overcast.fm/+AAuqpE6k4bk
Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle’s wife or a teacher’s wife or the wives of other honoured persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother … and the wives of other honoured persons.”
Those in whom shame and fear of wrong
Are not consistently found
Have deviated from the bright root
And are led back to birth and death.But those in whom shame and fear of wrong
Are consistently ever present,
Peaceful, mature in the holy life,
They put an end to renewal of being.~ from Itivuttaka 42
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Audio: Hiri and Ottappa | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #39
Past chats with Wendy:
Unedited transcript via Riverside:
Josh Dippold (00:01.058)
Holness, welcome. This is Josh Dippold and from Interskilled Integrating Presence and again, once again, Wendy Nash. Wendy, how are you?
Wendy Nash (00:11.049)
I’m in Gabby Gabby country in Queensland in Caboolture and I have a range of fans around me because I need to. also have I got some of those bales of sugarcane mulch and lucerne mulch and everything and they’re actually creating insulation because it gets so hot in this room. It’s got all the heat coming in on that one so that’s what I’m doing there.
Josh Dippold (00:37.859)
Well, tell me about the sugar cane mulch. What do you mean? I don’t know what that is because we don’t have sugar in the Midwest. I know what sugar cane is, but what is the mulch? What are you doing with that? What is that?
Wendy Nash (00:47.465)
You know, obviously when you’ve got the end at the end of the sugar cane after the sugar has been done Then you’ve got the sugar cane you just cut it down and that gets turned into mulch It’s like a lucerne
Josh Dippold (00:58.904)
But inside, so you’re going to plant things inside with it or why is it inside?
Wendy Nash (01:02.665)
No, no, no, it’s like these huge packets of lucerne just to create, you know, so imagine you had a straw bale house, but you don’t actually, just, you have the bits of plastic wrapped bales, which a bale is too big a word. It’s a plastic packet really. And just pushed up against the wall, just to kind of cut, because it’s cheap. Yeah, it’s just insulation. So that’s what I’m doing.
Josh Dippold (01:27.743)
Insulation, sure. Better than fiberglass. I remember I would get so itchy with that fiberglass insulation.
Wendy Nash (01:37.021)
And I just wanted to, I wanted a quick hack because it gets so hot here. So I just wanted something cheap and quick and all the rest. Now, Josh, this is a new format on Riverside and I’m just looking for where is the chat so we can see what people are gonna say.
Josh Dippold (01:53.144)
yeah, we did it one time. Let’s see, on the right hand side, it says chat for me at least, but I don’t know if it’s gonna show up for you. studio chat, no, okay. So I guess we need some, no. So I guess you’ll have to bring up the blog post on my website. So should be the first blog post and then the YouTube.
Wendy Nash (02:03.751)
Yeah, that’s a studio chat. It doesn’t say, yeah. Host, producers and guests, yeah, no.
Josh Dippold (02:21.76)
in bed should be there. And while you’re doing that, I’ll read our description. So yeah, welcome everyone to our 39th meditation Q &A. And this one’s on hiri and otapa. I also say, I also pronounce otapa. I’ve heard it pronounced that way too, but I think otapa is probably better. So bear with me if I pronounce it both ways and I’ll get into what that is in a second here.
Wendy Nash (02:22.117)
I’ll… I’ll… I’ll do that.
Okay, cool.
Josh Dippold (02:48.718)
And I have this written, in this 39th installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we plan to delve into hiri and otapa. Hiri is often translated as moral shame and conscience. Otapa is moral fear, fear of wrongdoing, moral dread, compunction, respect.
Together they are the bright guardians of the world. Wendy and I welcome all to engage with progressing towards clarifying and understanding Haryana Otapa from various teachings and from our own lives serving as foundational support for meditation practice and well-being. And in turn, how our meditation practice helps strengthen Haryana Otapa. We may or may not also explore some further importances of Haryana Otapa from
our own experiences and beyond, like the ups and downs involved, challenges, a related dream I recently had, successes, progress, lack of progress, inversions, reversals, balancing out new age misunderstandings and dismissals, hypocrisy, taboos, accountability, getting support, and how here in Otapa relate to the five precepts. And actually I’m gonna put in…
contemplation in there too. And maybe we’ll talk about how that is involved.
Wendy Nash (04:22.141)
You might’ve had a dream, but I had a really good insight, was all about being good.
Josh Dippold (04:29.526)
Okay, let’s hear it.
Wendy Nash (04:30.919)
the desire to hear, okay, so it was just an insight that I had on Sunday morning. So today it’s Thursday evening. And basically what I realized is that it’s me who desires to see myself as good.
And that it’s actually my own desire to see myself as good that is triggering the whole conversation about am I a good person? Because I’m just always wanting to see myself as good. And then I’m going, yeah, but I’m not good, not good, I’m not good, da da da. But it’s actually only me who seeing that as that. So what I then realized is that it’s a kind of a lie that I was telling myself. You can only be lied to if you have a
an unconscious desire to believe the lie. You cannot be lied to once you’ve seen through the lie, once you’ve seen it, you know, you can’t be lied to so you have to be complicit in the lie. And then what I realized is that underneath that desire, so a couple of things about that, one is if it’s me who seeks, who wants to see myself as good, then what I saw is that
Actually, being good is nothing to do with the behaviors you do. So for instance, I went down just now before I came on to water the garden and I can water the garden at the end of the day and the consequence of doing that is that the plants feel healthier. It’s got nothing to do with whether I’m a good person or a bad person, that is irrelevant to whether the water, whether the garden gets watered.
So that was very interesting to just go, oh, this is straight cause and effect. Everything is just cause and effect, but actually to see that and to go, oh, the whole being good thing. Well, that’s just a load of rubbish. It’s got nothing to do with anything. And it solves that question about when does a good person who does bad things become a bad person? Because it’s all about the consequences. So it’s about cause and effect.
Wendy Nash (06:48.593)
Anyway, and so I’m almost done. And then underneath that is actually hurt. I feel hurt. And then the other side of that, because I feel hurt, I actually want to hurt somebody back. Now I haven’t fully, fully unpacked it, but I thought that was a really cool one for Hirie and Otapa because what I noticed in reading the notes is that I had the outer awareness of consequences.
the knowing if I do this, harm will follow for me or for others. It includes regard for others for cause and effect for the web you’re part of, not fear-based guilt, but sober clarity. Otapa is pausing because you see where this leads. So that was 100 % the insight that I had. Whereas hiri, which is moral conscience, which is an inner sense of integrity, that
That one was nowhere to be seen. So it really made me think. You have to be good-hearted or kind-hearted to think, actually, I don’t want to shaft people. So that’s the end of my little drama and insight. So there you go.
Josh Dippold (08:10.606)
No, this is great. I’d like to jump into this and not picking on Wendy, but just kind of use this as a general thing. what struck me is this notion of selfing in this. if there’s just kind of goodness or acting out of goodness instead of
like whatever, but once there’s an I, I want to be seen as, then there’s like conceit involved, right? But as soon as we remove kind of the I mean mine, you know, then there’s just kind of the verb, right? There’s just kind of action from the heart is what I got. like, yeah, let’s unpack this a little bit. Do you see the selfing involved in this?
you know, once there’s kind of like a less of a selfless nature. But then, you know, I have to say, well, there can also be kind of quote unquote evil that’s selfless too, that people are just acting on, you know.
probably unskillful, unwholesome. this is also, like this, you know, when we say good and bad, that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? So I would say if we, it seems, if we reframe it as to, okay, what is skillful that’s gonna bring about the consequences that are gonna be of benefit for me and those around me, instead of I’m a good boy or I’m a bad boy kind of thing. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Wendy Nash (09:44.969)
All right, yeah, yeah. So one thing, so Reid, our super fan, she is online. She says, hi Josh, hi Wendy. So lovely to have you here. Just wanted to drop that in. And then I wanna pull apart the errors in your thinking there. So.
Josh Dippold (09:46.542)
Yeah, let’s just go in here.
Yes, hi. Hey.
Josh Dippold (10:00.206)
Well, hi, I’m Reed. It’s good to see you again or have you here with us again. Yes, please. Yeah, help me understand.
Wendy Nash (10:09.447)
Okay, so the notion of good or bad is the selfing. So it is the self that arises. So what I saw was Tanha, the craving for self. It was all about the craving for self and how the craving creates self. And self wants to see itself as good.
So the whole notion of whether somebody is good or bad is neither here nor there. Like it’s not even, it’s not about goodness or badness. Like you can just drop that. There’s no causation between if somebody is good and what they do. It is only correlation. Everything is cause and effect.
Josh Dippold (11:02.175)
Yes, so that intention drives the action.
Wendy Nash (11:02.281)
Yes, so go on.
Wendy Nash (11:09.225)
That’s where I think hiri, hiri, the moral conscience that, that I think it’s hiri, which is there. It’s not, that’s not intention. It’s the inner sense of integrity. And I think that’s different from intention because when we say, but I didn’t intend to do that bad thing or hurtful thing that, that then has a different thing, but hiri is a different thing altogether. That’s saying
No, I’m going to feel uncomfortable if I do that. So the feeling this isn’t aligned with who I want to be, it arises from self-respect, dignity and care for one’s own mind. Yeah, go.
Josh Dippold (11:47.926)
It’s kind of like where I think intention is more kind of active, and here he is kind of more protective, like a defensive, a preventative, right? These guardians, they act more of a preventative, where intention seems to be more of an impetus to act, I guess, in a way. You don’t know? Yeah?
Wendy Nash (12:09.563)
I’m just going in tension. You can just chuck that out with good and bad because it’s yeah. Go.
Josh Dippold (12:15.086)
Okay, so like I guess what drives our actions? know, what drives our speech? What drives our actions? You know, where do they come from? Why are we compelled to be interested and say one thing or do one thing? You know, and why aren’t we? So I guess that we just that basic question of what drives us to do what we do, you know.
Wendy Nash (12:39.219)
guess I’m talking in the context of Hiryan Otappa. So as guardians, they are saying, what is the conduct that you are behaving in? And one is going, that just doesn’t align with me. And so I’m not going to do it. And the other one, which I think is closer to intention, and the other one is, okay, if I do that, then I know what the
consequence is going to be and I’m not going to do it because actually I have this in sense of integrity that it’s going to do about doing the right sort of the the thing which is a lot you know dignified dignified yeah
Josh Dippold (13:25.71)
Yeah, yeah It’s I don’t know well, I guess I’m gonna step back here a little bit and Look at I know we were trying to stick more on meditation Q &A. However, I just want to say that
Sila, Samadhi, Panya, these three areas. So Sila is ethics and that’s what we’re into now, right? That’s what we’re talking about now. And Samadhi is the cultivation of mind and that’s the meditation practice. And then we have Panya, which is wisdom. And wisdom is kind of maybe the result of that, but also what’s needed to see the value, I guess, in ethics and meditation. So they all kind of blend together and support each other and they’re
they’re kind of hard to separate out or take it. So this is kind of like my disclaimer here at where we go. So these guardians of the world, they act as a support for our meditation practice because there’s a hindrance called restlessness and remorse. So sometimes when we sit down and there’s been a lot of kind of unskillful actions and thoughts in life, then those send.
tend to take precedence when I go inside, close my eyes, and look inside. Those things are, at least I’ve found in my experience, those things will come up first than trying to stay with my breath. So when there’s a strong, let’s just say, ethical foundation, a lot of that stuff isn’t coming in the way anymore. I know I dealt with that stuff for years in my practice because I just didn’t really, any, so I.
And then wisdom, I guess, is to be able to kind of see and know all this and make decent decisions and know from one’s own experience. I mean, we’ve talked about wisdom before, but I want to go back to Wendy’s thing here and her insight. And yeah, it was it’s just this notion of me that I want to be a good person. So this is it. This it can be a trap around this. Right. And
Josh Dippold (15:31.47)
I found myself falling into this trap too. I will say…
To use the conventional phrasing, lesser of evils. I would say this is a lesser of evils of, just don’t care. I’m just going to do whatever I want, you know, engage in heedlessness. It doesn’t matter. Nothing has consequences, anything like that. Of course it’s, it’s better than that. Right. I feel somewhat, but in a certain sense, like when Wendy says it’s, it’s this, it’s kind of, unless we see it, like Wendy says it’s, it’s operating under the surface. And then it just turns to me. It’s to me, it’s like a conceit.
how good can I be? How can I do this? It’s all about me and my actions and what I can do. And yeah, I fall into that quite a bit. mean, at the core, think a lot of it’s helpful. But then this notion of me doing it because I’m better than or, you know, or I feel guilty because I should do it.
do this and that, right? And so this is where these guardians, this moral shame and moral guilt, right? This is, and this is where I want to dive into too, because we’re not talking about the really unhealthy guilt, right? That’s the one where, my God, I’m such a horrible person.
You know, I shouldn’t do this. Yeah, I can never do anything right. Why did I? And just it’s like it’s a ruminating thing over and over and over and over where it’s almost debilitating. Now, that’s not the type I’m talking about. And then we have the other kind of like new age distortion that says, you should never feel guilty about anything. There’s no shame in my game, right? No shame in my. So either that could mean that saying no shame in my game could mean, I’ve.
Josh Dippold (17:23.674)
I can do whatever I want and I don’t feel bad about it, right? Or it could mean that I’m squeaky clean. yeah, so we’re talking about the healthy shame that says, okay, that will disgrace me and the people I care about, right? So yeah, if you have anything to say here about shame, Wendy, yeah.
Wendy Nash (17:46.407)
Yeah, first up, Reid has said, I really like this topic, but I’ll have to listen in the replay. Gotta go, but nice to see you both again in these videos. We’ll enjoy the reply. Bye for now. Yeah, it’s great.
Josh Dippold (17:55.362)
I appreciate you joining, just checking in, Ms. Reed. I really appreciate it, thank you.
Wendy Nash (18:01.543)
Very nice. So the thing that was really clear for me was actually this, that it’s your own pull. So it’s not, the focus is not on whether you are good or bad. The focus is, it’s about the pull that you can feel yourself lean into and be pulled by.
to see yourself as a good person.
So that’s the tanha, the craving for it. So it’s got nothing to do with whether you actually like, yeah, it’s really hard to explain this. I’ve had a couple of goes with people and I’m going, this is really hard. But basically focus on the craving for it. That’s the part.
Josh Dippold (18:54.388)
Sure, no it’s okay. so what about the other…
Yeah, yeah.
Wendy Nash (19:02.313)
So what you’ve been describing is whether you’re good or bad. And I want you to go back earlier into that. So as you, I’m going to lead you down that path. And so if you bring to mind some insignificant chatter you’ve got on about whether you’re good or bad, we can even use this conversation here if you want.
Josh Dippold (19:25.822)
so what was the prompting? I missed it, so.
Wendy Nash (19:30.451)
So I want you to tell me some like little inner conversation you’ve got going about whatever. It could be, you you burnt the toast this morning. I don’t care. Something really tiny, whatever.
Josh Dippold (19:32.898)
Yeah.
Josh Dippold (19:42.99)
Well, mean, just not in our conversations is something I was woken up. Maybe it’s, I don’t know. It’s that it’s bad. Somebody on the street was yelling outside the window here at the Airbnb.
I didn’t know what was going on. then I thought, first I thought, that’s kind of annoying. know, he’s, might be waking people up. He woke me up. But then I felt, wow, could, can I imagine that, me being on like that, like in that state it’s in it’s, then I thought, well, am I comparing myself to I think myself better? But then I thought, no, if I put myself in his shoes, then I thought,
I wouldn’t want to be out there yelling at people because I mean, how would I feel to do that? So then my heart kind of twinged a little bit to, know, okay, there’s some suffering involved, you know, here it seems, at least for me, because I don’t know where I’m going with this, yeah, I don’t know if that’s relevant to this topic or not, but yeah.
Wendy Nash (20:49.843)
Let’s see if we can go there. It’s easier when it’s actually a conversation that is just internal. I shouldn’t have burnt the toast this morning. One of those ones. Okay.
Josh Dippold (20:55.95)
okay. Here’s one. Here’s one. So I was getting my coffee the other day, yesterday at a place I really love in London that has pour over coffees. And yeah, so it’s hard to find in Europe to find pour overs, I think, because everything’s espresso, right? So I get this really good Costa Rican coffee. And I sit down and it’s cold out, but then I kick the table accidentally and I go, God,
you know, dang it, but I didn’t say dang it. And the guy sitting next to me, well, he, I don’t know, cause I was fairly calm throughout. So he’s like, why is this calm guy yelling a curse word in the morning? And so he kind of got up and left not too long after. I don’t know if it was related or not, but regardless, I said, no.
I mean, this is not good behavior. mean, sure, I allow myself to do that from time to time, but that’s not who I want to be known as or seen as and be reactive like that. I’m supposed to be a good meditator, you know, it’s supposed to be responsive and take it in stride and stuff. And here I’m still, I still uttered a curse in public nonetheless, you know? And so then I was like, that’s, Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Wendy Nash (22:12.233)
Great, great example. Okay, so in that conversation where you’re kind of, said, she said, she said, he said, and then I did this and then they did that kind of thing. Can you just feel your own desire? You want to see yourself as a good person.
Josh Dippold (22:34.478)
You know what? Actually, I don’t know if that’s there as much as I want it to be, actually. What I thought, no, I didn’t, I didn’t want to be seen in a certain way. You know what I mean? That’s it, that’s it, that’s it, yeah.
Wendy Nash (22:47.911)
Right, that’s it, that’s it, that’s it, that’s it, that’s it. So, but you can see there’s a desire there, a real wish to be seen as a good person, not a bad person.
Josh Dippold (22:58.604)
Yeah, yeah, you’re right. it shouldn’t have anything to do with me. It should have to do. Okay, sure, okay, sure.
Wendy Nash (23:00.04)
Yep.
Wendy Nash (23:04.745)
Don’t worry about that, don’t worry about that. Don’t worry, too far, too far, too far. So then just kind of go, just notice the pull and notice that it’s you creating your own desire.
To be a good person, to see yourself. It’s you seeing yourself as a good person. Like the guy has gone off and he’s gone off and you know, whatever. He’s got a whole new galaxy that he’s dealing with. So it’s just you having a conversation with yourself about how you should be a good person.
Josh Dippold (23:46.476)
Hmm now, I don’t know. I’m not saying I disagree with that. What I’m saying is okay if that’s the case What what do I? What role should I play and actually correcting that you know because? Right sure
Wendy Nash (24:00.945)
So, I just want you to notice the pull, the pull to see yourself as a good person. So, not the fact of being a good person, just the pull, the desire, just that, that you want to see yourself as a good person. The whole thing is circular.
Josh Dippold (24:21.06)
Yeah.
I guess, yeah, and I need to contemplate that more, Wendy. But what I’m wondering now, though, is like, OK, how do we train for ethics, right, non-harming then? If I don’t, because I’m not at the point, really, where I have that really deep inside of non-self, right? And I do have conceit, right? And at the same time, I realize how important non-harming and ethical behavior is, right, the five precepts, right, how much they’ve helped me in my own life.
Wendy Nash (24:25.961)
Okay.
Josh Dippold (24:52.104)
and how much they benefit those around me. So with where I am now, how then do I train that and correct certain types of behaviors, certain types of speech that I know are not helpful, that I know have…
consequences that aren’t going to be befitting of me and others. And yeah, the cherry on top would be to also see the conceit involved, like, this is my craving to see myself as a good person. So yeah, that would be great if that was gone too. But like, I’m triage here, you know, what is more important? Yeah.
Wendy Nash (25:29.115)
Okay. So, you can train your behaviors by training your behaviors.
Whether you are a good or a bad person is neither here nor there.
Josh Dippold (25:43.278)
Exactly, and I guess I didn’t look at it.
Wendy Nash (25:44.647)
That’s the point. That’s the point that is, is the kind of like, why would you even bother doing that? Cause it’s sort of not there. It’s not, it’s irrelevant.
Josh Dippold (25:55.374)
Yeah, you’re right. mean, you’re pointing to, I think, a deeper aspect too. I think that was I was not being seen by me. But the conflict I have here is, OK, yeah, to me, like step one would be to have that kind of delusional thing for a little bit in order to have the brakes on. But then eventually, we want to get rid of that.
I need to be a good person kind of thing. There just needs to be skillful behavior, skillful words, skillful behavior,
Wendy Nash (26:27.987)
Josh, you are. As you go around your day, you are always trying to do something that’s skillful and helpful and all the rest. you swore and you went, that’s not who I wanna see myself. So that’s hearing, but that’s not aligned with who I wanna be. I don’t wanna be that person who’s aggressive and gets caught up with all sorts of things and uses swear words and all the rest.
Josh Dippold (26:30.06)
Well, you’re right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Josh Dippold (26:45.358)
Sure.
Wendy Nash (26:56.283)
unlike me who swears like a trooper and has absolutely no compunction about that at all.
Josh Dippold (27:03.455)
Well, do you scare people away from you by doing it? I don’t know.
Wendy Nash (27:06.857)
Probably some people don’t like me, know, whatever. just, actually I was in the shops recently and I was talking with a woman and I swore and she laughed and I said, why did you laugh? And she said, well, I just didn’t think that she was a young woman, you know, like 20 or something. And she said, I just didn’t think a professional lady like you would swear. And I just went, oh, I swear like a true ba-me. So yeah, so it made her laugh, yeah.
Josh Dippold (27:33.816)
Well, let’s talk about that because I just don’t get any kind of ill will in your heart when you swear. Maybe I don’t know you well enough, but like I’m thinking about someone I know that’s close to that. It just feels hateful and harmful when they like there’s a lot of pain involved and it’s just kind of like a purging of that and not caring who they spew it over or what kind of is in their wake. Now,
Wendy Nash (27:54.311)
Yeah.
Josh Dippold (28:03.316)
a really well-placed curse word can give a lot of emphasis. It can relieve tension. It can bring humorous, I think, too. So to me, it’s all about what’s in the heart with it and why it’s being said and then what kind of impact it has, too, and then having that impact in form. And of course, we’re not…
Perfect, right? We’re all gonna make mistakes here and there. But for me, I feel you don’t have that such a degree of ill will in your heart as someone I’m looking at as a different reference point when it comes to just cursing. So in a way, you’re right. The curse word doesn’t have anything really to do with it. But then other people might say, no, these words, at least in America, there are certain words you can’t say over the air TV. I think we’ve talked about this before, which is really bizarre in some sense, but.
Sometimes sometimes depend on who says it how they say it in what context it has a certain weight to it compared to other words For whatever reason it’s really mysterious
Wendy Nash (29:05.481)
I was doing a course, mindfulness course actually, and then I swore, because I’m from Kabooltja, so I swear. And Australians swear a lot. We’re just like, know, effing and blinding all the time. And we just swear, and particularly my generation, we just swear a lot. And she was so offended by my salty language. And I just thought, good Lord, get over yourself. So that’s how I see it.
Josh Dippold (29:11.63)
you
Wendy Nash (29:34.503)
Really? What is your issue? know, but she clearly had a big thing about it. I do notice that Americans do get a bit more upset about it compared to other people. Like people my age, like somebody my age, know. older I wouldn’t swear in front of.
Josh Dippold (29:44.856)
Thank
It really depends who the person is and what the context is. Yeah, yeah. And having my dad be a sailor, I’m used to it. So, Yeah.
Wendy Nash (29:52.221)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy Nash (29:58.065)
Yeah, exactly. So, all right, let’s get back to Hiryuan Otappa in meditation. So, because we had a bit of a detour there on my insight and kind of going how does good and bad fit into it.
Josh Dippold (30:03.063)
Yes.
Josh Dippold (30:09.921)
Yeah. Well, I think that’s a really good thing. I think it’s a really good way to lead into it, though, because these things do run side by side with the five precepts, I feel. These are preventative measures for breaking the precepts, I feel. Yeah. So.
I was talking about shame, but the other one, otappa, is a moral fear. It’s reflecting on the consequences of our actions and what they might lead to. And then that acts as a preventative to certain actions. And this, to me, is really easy when I’ve done a certain behavior or said a certain thing over and over again. And then if I reflect on that and say, no, I know where that leads.
Why do I want to do that again? It’s like that story. First, I walk down a street, I fall in a hole. Second time I walk down the street, I see a hole, but I still fall into it. Then the third time I walk down the street, I see a hole, but then I walk around it. Fourth time, I choose a different street. So yeah, so from our own experience that we can learn how certain things have consequences, like you said.
Wendy Nash (31:25.171)
So I was on retreat and I had had a funny interaction with somebody and they had done something which was really quite hurtful, whatever. And I was in my meditation and I actually decided I would incite because I find it quite handy to kind of incite myself to really build it up and build it up as if I was going to say something. So I got to the point of the thing and I went, I know.
I would say, you are despicable. I was in my seat. I was just thinking, you are despicable. And then I went, I’m never going to say that. That’s like a ludicrous thing to say. But it was just so funny because by taking it to it’s sort of extreme, I’m going to say it to them and I’m going to, and then just go, yeah, I’m never going to do that. That’s like nuts.
Josh Dippold (32:13.677)
Yes.
Wendy Nash (32:21.479)
That can be quite handy and to me that’s a sort of an Otapa response.
Josh Dippold (32:27.382)
I love that. That’s my sense of humor too, is just doing kind of the bizarre and pushing things to the extreme. And that’s where it does seem so kind of ludicrous. Like it just, it’s a great exercise. Just if we follow on something, okay, where would that lead? Where can I push that to the most I could possibly push it? And then sometimes then it becomes really apparent, right? It’s still longer, subtle.
And so yeah, it brings a lot of things to the forefront. Yeah, I really like that. And it’s for a sense of humor too. It really works for sense of humor as well. So yeah, could you imagine write that on it? Because you can’t talk in some of the retreats can’t talk at. So imagine writing that person a note saying, you’re despicable, right? They’d probably think, what?
Wendy Nash (33:15.899)
It was just really, it wasn’t on retreat. was in my private life. Yeah. And, but it was really, and what it did is it completely broke the spell. I had all this rage and anger against this person and it just completely broke the spell. And I just went, yeah, I’m never going to say anything. It’s not, you know, but I now know what I think. And you know,
Josh Dippold (33:19.918)
I see.
Josh Dippold (33:27.874)
Yeah.
Wendy Nash (33:44.029)
there you go and that’s something to work with from a moral perspective. You know what does it mean to think someone’s despicable but it was just you know yeah.
Josh Dippold (33:54.798)
And it’s really good to do that too, because a lot of times we just kind of have this background. I don’t know, speak for myself. I just have this kind of background feeling until I can put words to it. A lot of times once I can label it sometimes, right. And then just really put the mind aspect to what I’m feeling. It can be really helpful in some sense, but I can also fuel the same thing and keep it going. But yeah, it’s.
To me, it’s about creating a sense of distance a little bit and then having a different perspective and a pause on it. And then actually feeling it all the way through too, that helps me a lot of times too, and not acting on it. Yes, for me, it’ll be unpleasant, but if I take that pause and actually just feel it, that moment is gonna be.
The initial moment is going to be really unpleasant, but it will prevent me from fueling it and perpetuating a lot of times. Then it will come and it will be seen and met. It kind of passed through me and instead of just not being aware of it and…
continually perpetuating it. So that’s sometimes how I like to deal with it. It’s hard, but there needs to be like a modicum of being able to catch to begin with in order to put the brakes on to begin with. Otherwise, my habit pattern is just to keep engaging with it and feeling it. So there has to be some wisdom to take the foot off the gas pedal and then just feel, and that’s where meditation comes in is where can be okay with sitting in that temporarily.
sharp unpleasantness with the delayed gratification, so to speak, of if I take the impact of this now for a little bit, it will prevent the prolongation of it happening in the future. Does this make sense? Do you know what I mean here? Because if I get in a spur with somebody, the tendency is just to continue the same energy. But if I withdraw and just not respond,
Josh Dippold (35:58.612)
and just pull back and just, this feels bad, right? This feels unpleasant. But at least I’m stopping my mouth and continue engaging and then it dissipates. And then I have some time to have a different perspective, a different response, come with a different energy to what I need to respond to instead of just being entangled and cycling with another person in a certain thing.
or whatever, yeah.
Wendy Nash (36:30.601)
So what I saw on so on Sunday morning it was great because all that internal chatter just stopped. And then on Monday, what I saw is that underneath, underneath that chitter chatter of the the selfing is actually hurt. It’s social hurt. They did that to me and I feel hurt. So it’s a misattribution.
of the events and sort of ascribing my own moral system or ethical value system onto them as if they are going to follow the same system as if, you know, whatever. But what was really interesting is that actually it’s the hurt. So selfing comes out of feeling hurt, the social hurt. And if you can just allow yourself to feel this social hurt.
then the hatred doesn’t arise.
Josh Dippold (37:34.602)
Yeah, that’s really beautiful. And you know, some people might say, well, it’s my right to hate. It’s my right to get angry. You know, I, know, that’s going to help protect me. But I, I don’t know. I mean, I think maybe in a really severe abusive situation that that might be helpful. Or maybe if you’ve never expressed anger in your life and kept it all bottled up and been like a little mouse in the corner your entire life. Yeah. Then, then maybe, maybe you can explore that.
some way, but to me I just find that it’s not a helpful response because me getting angry with someone else, they’re not gonna like it. They’re not gonna take well to it usually, right? They’re not gonna say, that’s just so great. I’m so glad you’re just angry and and and hateful towards me. I just love that. No, they’re probably not gonna say that. And if I feel into when I’m angry, yeah it just…
Yes, I’m hurt, but it’s not really it’s not really doing anything to address that hurt right in any in some sense. It’s just It can reinforce it. It’s saying yeah This feels so good to be angry and then but it I mean it feels so justified But if you really feel into it that that anger is is not it is it doesn’t feel good, right?
Like you’re saying that hurt it’s that it’s already happened So just to see it through and feel it now This doesn’t mean that I’m a torment and then I’m just gonna take and let people hurt me. That’s not what I’m saying here, you know There’s there’s a way to set and enforce Boundaries very strongly, but it doesn’t have to be hateful. All right, it can be okay I’m I’m just not gonna take I don’t have my options here so the
quote the Buddha here, hopefully this is not too parroting, but someone came to him with just really, even the Buddha got, I mean just accusations and anger, and then he responded by saying, hey, have you ever had guests? And the guy says, yeah, I’m paraphrasing here obviously, and he says, well, have they ever brought you a gift? And he said, yeah, but who would the gift belong to?
Josh Dippold (39:57.23)
if you wouldn’t accept it, if they give you a gift and you wouldn’t accept it, who would the gift then belong to? And he said, well, it would belong to them, the giver. And he says, in the same way, this anger and hatred you have towards me, I don’t accept it.
So yeah, it’s only like if I identify with a me that the other person’s talking about, yeah, this is real, you know, so we don’t have to let it, we don’t have to take it, pick it up or accept it and let it kind of pass through or like water off a duck’s back. Now, however, another caveat here, because nothing’s really that simple ever. A lot of times there’s some, it doesn’t really happen randomly. Of course, yeah, we can walk out on the street and it can seem random.
Wendy Nash (40:12.018)
a good one.
Josh Dippold (40:41.692)
right, if we have some crazy street person just do something ridiculous in front of us. I think maybe with our wisdom we could, who knows what action or said we would have said in the past that could have been a condition for this to be fruiting now. But I’m not talking, but that’s seemingly too random. But like if someone is angry with us, it’s probably not on random, right? So I think also we need to reflect, okay, what are the causes and conditions maybe around this that
that this is happening, know? Where’s the role here? And it doesn’t, it’s not to blame myself that I’m a bad person. It’s saying, okay, what am I missing here? What’s my part in this, you know? So to speak, like, okay, what needs to be said and acted upon or not? That’s gonna be, you know, the best thing here for everybody involved, you know? And it’s a practice too.
Wendy Nash (41:35.761)
Yeah. So I used to have a foul temper. I used to be a really cranky person. have trained myself to be less cranky. I’m still cranky, but I am less cranky. It takes a lot for me to kind of blow up like that, but it used to be like drop of a hat. Look, I didn’t even worry about the hat dropping. I just went for it, you know? And then I realized, you know, and I had that argument that it was going to make me safe.
And then I just went, so if I actually think about how many times it makes me safe and how many times it makes me more unsafe, I went, when I get angry, it makes me feel more unsafe. So that’s a really bad strategy. I’m feeling more safe because I’m going, yeah, that’s definitely not going to make me safe because what I’m doing is I am eliciting that, you know, I’m going, somebody’s going to be really unhappy with me and they’re just going to get angry with me. then da, da, da, da, So.
That was a good one. And I asked somebody, a couple of people about that who had very, again, these very volatile reactive personalities. And they went, yeah, now that you say it, it actually is really not a helpful way of doing it. But at some point somebody, they learned, you know, that it was helpful. The other thing that I was thinking there is,
Josh Dippold (43:02.478)
Well, let me just comment on this. That’s okay. Let me comment on the safety. Yeah, and I don’t really put it together like that a lot, but just when we’re angry, we kind of make ourselves a target, right? If we want to be safe. If I’m angry, how much bad attention does that get? Like that’s like a game animal walking out in the open amongst hunters, right? It just draws unwanted, unneeded attention that, yeah, if I’m angry, I mean,
Wendy Nash (43:03.335)
I can’t remember. Yeah, go.
Josh Dippold (43:30.766)
who’s gonna just wanna flock to me to be buddy-buddy kind with me, right? And just make sure that I’m safe and feel pleasant and taken care of. Probably not so much. Either people will run away. Now that’s what people probably might hope will protect me by dispersing, but other people aren’t like that. They might be confrontational. They might want to confront and harm us if we’re angry. So yeah.
and to just think about people that want to get in fights, you know, they don’t like go up and try to make friends and be kind. No, they’re, they’re usually being provocative and angry and don’t really care of the consequences, right? And yeah, sure.
Wendy Nash (44:11.625)
So I have to actually just tell you a bit of Queensland legislation. So a friend of mine had this guy, he was riding his bike and a driver was behind him and then sort of tried to take him over, sort of going left and he’s going, I had right of way when actually it’s a bit more, it’s actually very complicated in legislation to know who has right of way because it depends on where you are anyway. And so on the,
reported to the police, the guy who was hit, and the police officer said, look, I’m really sorry about this question, but I have to just ask him, ask you, did you ask him to hit you? He’s going, no. And I was going, and I heard it. And I said, I know what’s happened. There’s somebody been going, go on, me, hit me, hit me, go on, dare you, I dare you, get me. And so they’ve got this question in there. like, did you ask to be hit?
Yay, I asked for it! Okay, well there you go! So now they’ve got this ledger, it’s in their Queensland Police form about physical violence! Go on, mean!
Josh Dippold (45:24.526)
Well, you got what you asked for, mean, yeah, I mean, gosh, yeah, this is, this just shows. Yeah. And are they both the happier? Well, yeah, we have got a little, but still, this is, okay, is that these are guardians of the world. We’re talking about the examples that aren’t guarding the world, right? We’re talking about
Wendy Nash (45:33.885)
We have moved it.
Josh Dippold (45:48.878)
behavior that’s the opposite. So in a way, it’s very relative by contrast. Yeah. So yeah, let me see what else was on my list here of things to mention. We’ve talked about challenges. Go ahead.
Wendy Nash (46:01.705)
Well, I’ve got here. It says here, hiri keeps the heart upright, otapa keeps behavior careful. One is inward facing, the other is outward facing. Together they replace both moral rigidity and moral collapse. In the early texts, the Buddha says that when hiri and otapa decline, society unravels, not because people become evil, but because they become these
subtle forms of care. They lose these two subtle forms of care. So they are not guilt, are not self judgment, they don’t require a solid self to defend or condemn. They function best when selfing is light, clear seeing, natural restraint and ease. There you are.
Josh Dippold (46:50.85)
Yeah, that’s beautiful. are kind of more subtle things too. So why don’t I talk about the dream I have so hopefully people won’t go to sleep. I’ll make it, because usually when people say, I have a dream that they say, god, this is going to be boring a lot of times. it was just really, I mean, I was in a room with a really respected teacher.
that I admire a Buddhist teacher, right? And kind of this awe and reverence and this very fortunate sense. And then all of a sudden I find myself in this, old, one of my old high school friends that I’m kind of embarrassed about the behavior.
that I did and we engaged in as young adults and stuff. having, it just kind of put things in place, right? Because thinking maybe I’m more pious now and I’m this completely different person and that I just kind of forgot all about my past in a sense. And then here we are in the same room and it’s just this clash, right? Of different.
ways of being in the world, things that are valued or not valued and okay, how do I hold both of those at the same time? There’s just this kind of maybe inner conflict, but it’s kind of like an embarrassment for my own past and my friend in a way and that I don’t want to kind of subject that to what I value now. And like, how do I reconcile? How do I hold that? What do I do with that?
So to me, kind of puts like, okay, what’s appropriate when, you know, I guess that’s what I had to work with then. And now I have this, but there is some kind of connection still between the two, right? So what, and then what do I do with that? So I can’t remember the details of it, but then I kind of woke up in a sense. You know, actually, it kind of had to do with Mudita too.
Josh Dippold (48:49.228)
because back then I really had a really good time a lot of times, but it was not so skillful behavior, you know, and it led to things, but I felt, you know, kind of happy and joyful, but in a kind of a bad or distorted unhelpful way. But it was kind of like a relief, but now the amount of rejoicing and happiness that I can…
a joyous and kind of a happiness and skillfulness that just feels like wholesome through and through compared to, yeah, the things we were doing for kicks back then. But not to really, yeah, just kind of look at its growth, right? I would just maybe look at it as growth, perhaps. I don’t know. How would you see it, Wendy?
Wendy Nash (49:31.433)
you know, as somebody who experiences a lot of shame and I’ve been thinking obviously a lot about it this week after my insight, but I had already come to this idea that
Wendy Nash (49:46.479)
It’s the idea that you want to see yourself as a good person and then you realize that your behavior was bad. So it was a mismatch between how you see yourself and then your behavior, I think. And I think that’s the Utapa, the thing that we’re talking about there. And in this week, I’ve been more thinking about it is tied in with being
a good, I want to see myself as good, which is neither here nor there about the behaviors because you look back at them and you go, yeah, that was pretty bad behavior actually. And being good is not relevant to the behaviors that you do. So the consequences of those, not relevant. The other part of it, maybe I missed, maybe
I’m not speaking to but I suddenly thought about hurt. That the idea of hurt is that what matters to me doesn’t matter to you and if you hurt me then what matters to you doesn’t matter to me. Yeah so I feel like there’s something about do they care about me. I haven’t got further than that but if they were a good person they would care about me. It’s probably there would be my guess.
Josh Dippold (51:15.458)
This is, and yeah, the care, that’s the point here. And it’s a tough one. One of the ones that really strikes me is when I see litter and I just think somebody just doesn’t care. I mean, they don’t care, they wanna live in crap, right? And so they must not care about themselves or me, their neighborhood or people. But then I reflect and I think, and I don’t know what’s going on.
But my sense is the person is probably really in pain, like a lot of hurt. They have so much stuff going on with their life that that’s the very least of their concerns, the stuff they’re going through, right? So it’s not to condone that or say that behavior is okay, you know? But I don’t know what to do with that. I see that as like a sign of unconsciousness and uncaring.
And I don’t know really what to, what I usually do is then go over and pick it up when I can’t, at least when I had a place of my own. because I, I’m not going to realize nobody else is going to do, mean, maybe they could, right? Maybe I could make big, a big fuss and go to it. That’s not going to be helpful for harmony. So it’s just easier for me to do it myself. So the thing with that though, is it just seems like that’s never ending. Like it just, I seem to be attracted to these places where I can feel better if I take,
pro action and pick it up. So I really don’t know what to do here, what this is, what’s going on with this, but it did really resonate with me what you’re saying about this hurt and care, because for whatever reason, I’m taking this personally enough and I’m feeling hurt by this, you know?
Yeah, and with that, there is that relationship with hurt and care, it seems, you know? It’s a really interesting relationship. So I guess then what do we do about it? What, and we feel hurt, we think the other person doesn’t care, or then we don’t care. So where should the care lie? And I think that this is why the Brahma Vihara practices are so great. I don’t have, you know, I can care about everybody.
Josh Dippold (53:22.016)
all beings everywhere in a certain sense, know, in a general sense. And that helps, I think, strengthen and uplift my heart to meet these challenging day-to-day things in a more skillful way, maybe, you know? Yeah, so, but I have to be like number one, because I’m probably the one hurting the most, right? And then knowing that I can’t affect other people, I can’t change other people, like I can’t control other people either, right?
You just can’t do it. That’s a losing game of madness to think that I can control other people.
Wendy Nash (54:00.489)
So a lot of people, they’re in trucks and then they just chuck out their fast food bag out the window, they chuck their can of soft drink, they chuck their whatever it is, alcohol, rubbish, candy, whatever it is. And I just go, well, there you go, really. And I just pick it up.
Josh Dippold (54:14.346)
Alcohol, yeah.
Josh Dippold (54:19.893)
everything.
Wendy Nash (54:29.107)
There is something in there what you say which is that a good person doesn’t do that bad thing.
Josh Dippold (54:38.51)
You think so? I don’t know. Yeah, maybe that is in there. But yeah, yeah, I guess so.
Wendy Nash (54:44.009)
because it’s pretty solid, it’s pretty solid there. Whereas, you know, I don’t, I just go, well, they just, they grew up with different values from me. I would never do that, but they grew up with different values from me. And so I go, okay, well, they just, that’s what they’re doing. And the young guys, a bit like when you were a young guy and you just spoke about, you know, things that you did. And I see they’re just young people who would do that. When you’re older, you don’t,
Josh Dippold (55:06.488)
Yeah, it’s… Sure. Well, it is. Well, it could be. I don’t, yeah, no, well, yeah, it’s a good point. I need you to catch them. But there is a sense. Well, I mean, my mouth has spewed trash, lots of trash before, you know? So I don’t even consider that a lot of times. I just think, okay, well, this, they’re like…
Wendy Nash (55:12.925)
do that anymore. So I think it’s just like, no, whatever.
Josh Dippold (55:33.294)
infringing. if it ends up to where I’m living, it’s like, get off my yard, kids. But like, okay, so if they throw it out, and then it’s also a subtle mind thing. So it’s like, like attracts like the broken window theory, you know, so it just kind of shows this general sense of uncaring and disregard for for
I guess an environment that’s conducive to wellbeing, you know what I mean? Because how do I feel when I look at trash all over the place? It doesn’t, like my heart doesn’t leap up of like, oh, I wanna go, you know, yeah, it just kind of brings me down if I really reflect on it compared to a beautiful scene or whatever too. So, but yeah, that’s right. So the-
Anyway, this is something I need to work on here. I still haven’t resolved this, right? And still going through this and how to view this and what to do about it. But yeah, so.
Wendy Nash (56:35.303)
Yeah, it’s like my husband, he has the whole thing about diesel and he’ll hear these diesel trucks go up and down and he just goes nuts like you are going there. And then I get really irritated because people drive these big pickup trucks and SUVs and I go nuts because I’m like, if you only knew what you actually, impact that you had on people and if you have bull bars on top, then you’re really high pedestrian kill rate. So I’ve got this kind of.
I’ve learned all those facts and figures and I know about diesel and its heinous for the environment. But so is tire dust. Tire dust is even more noxious than diesel even. Diesel’s been banned in Europe. yeah, it’s all these things are sort of like we are outraged. And I think it comes from this sense of feeling hurt that the other person doesn’t care, but we are ascribing a moral value to them.
that is our own moral value. Like when you were a young guy and you were a bit of a toss pot for lack of a better word and you didn’t have any kind of sense of what anybody else cared about and you were exactly the same. And so get off your hobby horse there Josh.
Josh Dippold (57:49.782)
No, really is. So I mean, I think the answer to all this is education, but before that, there has to be a willingness for education too. And this is how it’s done, right? Because some people will look, that’s just ridiculous, pretentious. This isn’t real. I mean, look at these people. So it needs to be a skillful means for where people are at, meeting them where they’re at, and if there’s a willingness. And yeah, so I think that’s.
Definitely one way out. Well, Wendy, you usually say it, we’re mostly out of time here. We got a couple more minutes. Is there anything else that we kind of left out? I mean, I think we just kind of scratched the surface on this, but I think we also covered it good enough. And I really like how we used our own experiences here. And I think the point of this for meditation too, again, like I said earlier, is that when we come with less regrets and we come with these being
by these guardians into our meditation practice, we’re less likely to have a lot of these things ruminate over and over because, I did this, or, they did that, or, I should respond this way, or they responded that way. And I couldn’t, so there’s a lot less to work out. So when we sit down, I sit down, the mind is likely to go into more calm instead of having to work all these things out on the cushion, yeah.
Wendy Nash (59:17.769)
Well, you probably don’t have so many interactions and the hurt that goes on is sort of more deeper and deeper and deeper and sort of old stuff. But it’s good to ask yourself, know, where is the desire to see yourself as good, like to really pull on that.
Josh Dippold (59:25.934)
Exactly.
Josh Dippold (59:34.956)
Yes, and I like this behavior and this care. It’s not just for me, you know? It’s for everybody I come into contact with and all of us, you know? So that is one way to be less me, me, me oriented, you know? But it’s not to say, right?
Wendy Nash (59:52.421)
It’s all about me, Josh. It’s all about me.
Josh Dippold (59:56.128)
It’s not to shrug off responsibility, yeah, use Wendy’s call to go deeper into this notion of what is this self, what is this me thing I keep referring to. What the heck is that anyway? Why do we have this construct? It’s crazy mystery.
Wendy Nash (01:00:13.767)
You know, there’s so many, it’s like me, myself and I, and we’re all doing everything. Is it me who talks or is it me who’s listening or is it me who’s rambling or is it me who’s thinking or is it me who goes and gets in the food queue or is it me who thinks that, you know, whatever.
Josh Dippold (01:00:16.974)
you
Josh Dippold (01:00:26.762)
center of the world, but don’t let that turn into self-loathing, self-hatred to try to get out of it either, right? Because that’s the other kind of extreme of unworthiness, is anything I do valid, this type of thing. So yeah, this is a great exploration for our practice for sure.
Wendy Nash (01:00:45.779)
We’re up! We’re at time, Josh!
Josh Dippold (01:00:47.656)
All right. Okay, may you all be protected well and may you protect yourselves well and each other. Bye everybody.
Integrating Presence 