In this thirty-eighth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we to delve into the influence of language in meditation. Recently a podcast guest mentioned a turning point when a teacher described the breath as: oh so delicate. There’s also an exercise some insight teachers do of getting into a meditative state and then reading off a list of words that are quite emotionally charged both positive and negative and then noticing the effects when dropped into meditation. (We do something like this with various words related to acceptance.) And if we can notice how impactful this is in meditation, how does that translate off the cushion? Also, how can language hinder and how can it help liberate? All this and more
0:00 – Introduction and Weather Chat
1:38 – Topic Introduction: The Influence of Language in Meditation
2:58 – Onomatopoeia and How Words Sound in Different Languages
6:26 – Language and Thought in Meditation
8:30 – Auditory vs Visual Thinking and Word Choice in Instructions
10:57 – Precision in Meditation Language and Over-Reliance on Words
13:53 – Guided Exercise: Dropping Acceptance Words into Meditation
16:32 – Discussion on the Acceptance Words Exercise
21:10 – Radical Acceptance and Wisdom in Arising Thoughts
27:42 – Article on How Word Sounds Affect Us
35:27 – Language, Emotions, and Wise Speech
37:40 – Harsh vs Passive-Aggressive Language
41:18 – Gender Differences in Nasty Language
46:41 – The Power of Kind Words and Self-Talk
49:51 – Meditation Helping with Reactions and Regret
51:15 – Internal Self-Talk and Judgment
54:55 – Moral Shame, Self-Deprecation, and Humble Brags
59:20 – Wrapping Up: Kindness and Christmas Advice
1:00:21 – Goodbye
Ai summarizes it thus:
1. **The Power of Words in Meditation Instruction**
– Certain phrases from teachers can create breakthroughs (e.g., describing the breath as “oh so delicate”).
– Subtle differences in wording matter: “observe the breath” feels distancing and dualistic, while “notice the breath” feels more open and direct.
– Historical translations of Pali terms (e.g., “enlightenment”) carry outdated Victorian-era cultural baggage that can mislead modern practitioners.
2. **Language as Sensory and Bodily Experience**
– Words land differently depending on the person: Wendy is highly auditory; others are more visual or kinesthetic.
– Onomatopoeia and sound symbolism show how some words mimic real-world sounds or sensations and affect the body more vividly.
– Reference to a research article: certain words (especially vivid, concrete, or emotionally charged ones) are more “surprising,” grab attention, and stick in memory longer.
3. **Live Exercise: Dropping Acceptance-Related Words**
Josh guides a short meditation, rapidly reading a list of gentle acceptance-oriented words/phrases (e.g., allow, permit, embrace, soften, surrender, tenderness, “it is like this,” “this belongs”).
– Wendy notes varied reactions: “allow” feels effortless and empowering; “embrace” or “surrender” can feel forced or trigger personal associations (e.g., childhood memory of unwanted physical affection).
– Highlights how the same instruction lands uniquely for each person and can reveal resistance, memories, or personality traits.
4. **Language Off the Cushion: Daily Life and Relationships**
– Harsh, passive-aggressive, or veiled toxic speech can be more damaging than overtly angry words.
– Discussion of “wise speech” (right speech): avoiding harm, gossip, deception, and “acting with a twist.”
– Gender observations on meanness: women sometimes use subtle, relational aggression; men more direct/physical.
– The importance of honesty as the foundation; lying (even to oneself) removes safeguards.
– Self-talk mirrors external speech: judgmental inner dialogue spills into how we treat others.
5. **Meditation as a Safe Space**
– The cushion amplifies sensitivity to language and emotion, making it easier to notice habitual patterns, reactivity, and inner narratives.
– Meditation creates space for response rather than reaction, revealing unconscious motivations and reducing self-inflicted drama.
– Keeping precepts (especially wise speech) reduces mental “gunk” that arises during sits.
6. **Closing Reflections**
– Shame can be healthy when it signals ethical awareness rather than self-beating.
– Humble-bragging and false humility are pitfalls; sincerity and kindness are the goal.
– Final holiday advice: be kind, give yourself slack, avoid excess alcohol, and choose words that bring peace.
Overall, the conversation emphasizes that language is not neutral—it shapes perception, emotion, bodily sensation, relationships, and meditative depth. Mindful attention to words (in instructions, self-talk, and daily speech) can liberate, while careless or harmful language hinders both practice and life. The tone is warm, honest, and practical, blending personal stories, Buddhist insight, and linguistic research.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Audio: Language | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #38
Past chats with Wendy:
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Hey, wholeness. Welcome. This is Josh integrating presence and I’ve got Wendy Nash with me. Wendy, what’s going on?
I’m here on Gabby Gabby country in Queensland in Kabula and it’s heading
into the heat of summer. So, of course, I’m in the southern hemisphere and
Christmas is here and Queensland is really, really humid. So, it’s not that
hot. So, it’s about, you know, 20. A hot day for us is like 34, which is not that
hot by Sydney standards. 34 is kind of that’s fine. Um, but it’s so humid that
if it’s 34, it’s like unbearable. So, when it’s not like that today, it’s like
I’ve got a fan on, but it’s not too too bad. I have two fans on, but it’s not too too bad. So, yeah, I’m uh I’m I’m
happy. How about that? I’m in a happy space. That’s great. Yeah. And it’s winter time
here. When I got back from New Hampshire, it was super super cold. Like, okay. So, I’m sorry. We’re the
last country on earth that uses Fahrenheit. So, Celsius means very little to me. Fahrenheit will mean even
less to you. Uh those 8° Fahrenheit, which is way, you
know, way way colder that it would be sub or negative easily negative Celsius.
So, so yeah, and you could do a conversion. But here in mid Missouri, it’s it’s fairly mild for the winter
right now. It’s almost uh 50° Fahrenheit. So, not even close to
freezing right now. So, it’s it’s really balmy for winter here. Um but yeah, it’s
it’s okay. And uh here we are today to talk about language. Right. Let’s do a a rough abrupt transition here. And I’ll
just read this what I have written for it. In this 38th installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash,
inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we plan to delve into the influence of language in
meditation. Recently, a podcast guest mentioned a turning point when a teacher described
the breath as oh so delicate. There’s also an exercise some insight
teachers do in the insight tradition of meditation um of getting into a
meditative state and then reading off a list of words that are quite emotionally charged both positive and negative and
then noticing the effects when dropped into meditation and if we uh can notice
how impactful this is in meditation how does this translate off the cushion into
our life also how can language hinder and how can it help liberate? All this and more when Wendy and I speak about
language itself. So, I’m going to sit back here for a second and I think uh where does um is
is there anywhere you want to start with with what I read, Wendy, or anything else? Well, I as I said just before we came on
air, uh I was interested in the conversation had an article yesterday which was really interesting.
Unfortunately, I can’t find it today. I did. Oh my goodness. But what it basically said is that words
uh you know we are all familiar with anamatapia with which is that words
sound like um like plop plop a plop. Yeah. So yeah. So you can hear
sort of murmur, the water murmurs, you know, and so a a lot of words have this
anomatopic sound, although not all because as you would know um the word in
English is dog in in um Danish it’s hund. So or in French it’s uh so that
they sound all very different but a lot of words are very ontopic and a lot of
words land differently in the body. So I asked somebody when I was um in France
what does English sound like and it’s and he said it sounds like you’re always angry at each other.
There’s a lot to be said about that I think. Yeah. And I think maybe we are often angry and it’s like we hear French you know and we
don’t understand French. It’s like, “Oh my goodness, they’re so beautiful and lovely and flowery and and then you go
actually when you hear them, they’re just like, you know, arguing. They’re the same as us.” You know, it’s in Danish, you know, you you sort of have
that there’s a Yeah. So, but the saying is if you can’t say anything nice, say it in French.
Well, Greg GT, Greg, somebody rather um says hi. And Nexus Ingenaria says, “Hi.”
So, very nice. Hello. Welcome. Hello back. Welcome. So, uh, we’re here,
uh, meditation, Buddhist meditation Q&A. So, our questions, um, are about that.
So, if you have any questions about how language affects the way that you meditate and your Buddhist meditation
um, and any other questions too, meditative related, if we don’t get to them now, it’s been potential for for other times.
Yeah. Yeah. So L uh Wendy was talking about I think you’re kind of pointing at maybe
the origins of language a little bit. I mean, take it all the way back, right? And these categorizations uh about these
I always say that, you know, it’s it’s amazing how we make these little mouth noises and we can understand each other
or it seems like we can understand each other, right? And like you’re saying the anamanopia well just had to
conceptualize because there’s no video recorders of social media back then, right? We have to kind of do some guesswork about origins of language.
We’re going to look into this and I think that’s really val I mean it seems uh to make some sense, right? Um, how
did the language come about anyway? Well, if they’re actually mimicking um other sounds in the world, how things
make sounds or things like this, well, then it makes sense to to use our mouth
to replicate kind of sounds in the world, right? Mimic mimicry perhaps.
We’ve got call and response. And as um Wendy pointed out, there’s also this kind of um categorization of romance
languages, which is kind of Spanish and French. We’ve got like more Germanic languages. I would say maybe more
precise um you know dry uh more complex. I I
know I don’t know about more complex but it’s different. Sure. So So just in relation to Buddhist
meditation Q&A cuz we we had a chat a couple of uh and it’s like let’s keep to
topic. Let’s keep topic because I think it’s it it’s good to respect the audience you know it’s totally totally
they’ve signed up for that so let’s do that. So how that relates to this I would say is if we watch our minds in
meditation. So meditation is this like artificial container where we’re getting
to notice way much more about our internal experience and our um yeah and
things we don’t normally notice because we’re so distracted and I would say and um we’re there’s not as much going on so
we can calm down get subtle and go deeper and more subtle. And so one of
the things if we’re um think in language like like I tend to do more by default
some people in images is that we can notice that language can just where does
it come from? it just bubbles up in the mind, right? Thoughts bubble up in the mind in language. And so we can see this
process as it happens. And I often um look sometimes when I look directly at the mind, it’s almost like this subtle
energy uh where a thought wants to rise up, but there can almost be like a a
willful choice to not have it come up in in a sense, right? Or we can be watching
at the mind door for a thought like a like a cat on a mouse. And so, but why
would this be important? I’ll just throw it back to Wendy because I’ve been talking here. Why would it be important
to see our language or our thought b um
our language based thoughts? And there’s a thing called an inner voice that a lot of us come into contact with when we’re
meditating. um this inner voice that speaks. And uh yeah, I just want to see
how what what Wendy has to say about this, if she’s a if if Wendy’s a visual thinker, a language-based thinker, or
how she deals with language and uh thought in meditation. Yeah.
So, I’m very auditory. So, my visual faculties, it’s not that I
can’t see. It’s that of all the senses I have, audio is the is the one that just
lands strongest for me. It’s the one I rely on, the one that I feel sure about.
So, language for me is very um important. You know, speaking couple of
different languages, not so fluent now as I once was. But I think what language
can do in terms of meditation or even becoming aware of it. So you might say
when you observe the breath or when you notice the breath. Now one
has a sort of a distancing capacity and the other one is just ah
look what arises. So one has a more ah there it is look. whereas the other one
has this um separateness. I am the observer.
And so I for me in terms of meditation, Buddhist meditation,
that’s the sort of thing that I think can be really important. And when you read the old parley texts in the early
translations and we’re stuck with these terrible words like enlightenment and um
they’re we’re stuck with them and they’re from times when it was during
the Victorian era when words had different meanings to what they mean today. the culture was very different
and so the cultural lading of a word can really change
and that arises in our meditation. So
how about that? Oh, you can’t I can’t
Sorry. Yes, I I muted. Yeah, it is really important. So, um Wow. Yeah. Why
don’t we try this out, too? Like I’ve got a list of words that I once I bring it up here, we we’ll come to it in a
little while. Anybody a chance to see if they they want to do this about dropping words in meditation and that the effects
either gross or subtle. Um because I I’ve done this exercise before and I I
really like it. Um yeah, it’s a huge thing. What about watch the breath? I
mean some teachers say don’t watch the breath, but others they use that language watch the breath. So for
someone who’s visually oriented that might resonate with them uh more so you
know there’s a lot of like general instruction but when we dial in the
right words sometimes there’s just this aha moment. Oh wow that really resonates. You know, these other words
are are close and they’re similar, but there can be like a some certain nuance
for a particular word that really hits home and is really infect effective. And
sometimes it could work um I think it seems like maybe it can work towards uh
significant insights, but other times it just seems to work temporarily and then maybe we’ll switch to another thing. And
now this is another important thing maybe is that we don’t want to get overly dependent on words. So I think I
had my teacher very wisely point out that he um he said, “Oh, you’re you’re too dependent on language, you know.”
And I thought, “Wow, maybe you’re right.” You know, um maybe I’m relying on an overemphasis of language.
So in terms of your meditation practice, how how did that play out?
Well, you know what? So how else do we and and excuse me why I’m also scrolling through some notes here. You know, one
of the one of the things we can do is we can tune into our experience with language, right? Okay. So, I I uh found
what I’m looking for here. Um but we can also orient our experience to other
senses and other means, right? So, we can just be visual. So, um right or we
can be tactile. Um so it an overuse or an overreiance would be that maybe the
experience of meditation is being overre reliant on you know paying attention to
language based thoughts. But if there’s an intention to switch to another way of
noticing or paying attention like there can orient at least in my experience I
found to okay now that I’m doing earth casino I’ve got this casino disc and instead of being lost in a lot of
auditory thoughts a lot of times or language based thoughts I’m now putting emphasis on um an image uh in my um both
eyes open and eyes closed. And I’ve noticed a lot of that reside, you know, uh because it’s it’s easier to
notice as soon as that then there’s no meditation object anymore. There’s no, you know, it kind of predominates. Um so
that’s one way to kind of see a contrast I think in meditation um with this as
well. Yeah. So what’s your what’s your list of words? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, let’s let’s
invite everybody to to close their eyes and relax and take a deep breath. But what these are all just
going to be subtle nuances for acceptance, words that Buddhist teachers use for acceptance. And I think some of
these might actually be radical. So, I’m going to have to keep my eyes open while we do this so I can read the words,
right? Um, but let me I will take a few deep breaths in silence here before I
read these.
And just notice how these land and if there’s any variations with what your
experience is. Open.
Allow. Permit.
Embrace. Inhabit.
Be with a company.
Free. Melt.
Soften. Soothe.
Safe. Surrender.
Sweetness. Gentleness.
Care. delicate.
Yes. Tenderness.
Ease. Expand.
Relax. Release.
Include. Trust.
It’s okay this too.
This belongs. It is like this.
Okay. Just take um couple more breaths before we open our eyes. And I went a
little quickly through these, but there was quite a bit for sampling here.
Okay. So, did Wendy, did you notice anything with these?
I’ll be honest, it was so quick I couldn’t I could barely keep up. So I
not really um but what I noticed is um that some are
more I guess kinesthetic some of them require me to do something
more actionbased embrace. Ah some have a more passive. So I feel
allow is a more just you just kind of don’t have to do anything you just allow it. So I quite
like allow um so surrender that feels a bit um
you know presumptuous. Oh it just um like I’m giving up on
something. So I I don’t have any sense of agency in it. So
yeah, I mean they definitely make a lot of difference in the way that the word
is experienced and what I do with it and whether I fight with it actually. So the thing about allowing is that I I have a
very fighty personality. And so it says I’m actually the one who’s sort
of giving permission here about the breath, which is kind of silly because it’s just the breath, but
I’m not being asked anything that that I don’t have to do actually. Whereas some
of the others I felt like I was being asked to. So, so for instance with the
embrace when we were um when I was a child and I was 12 I we went over to
England and to meet you know it was Christmas and my uncle was there and they said
give you give him a kiss and I was like I don’t want to I don’t even know who this person is
and it sort of reminds me of that that I have to embrace this foreigner this who’s this man that I don’t I don’t know
who he is like you might know him but I’m a kid I don’t know Oh, he’s a nice enough guy. Like, I didn’t have anything
wrong with him, but but like no, I’m not going to I’m not going to do that. And so, Embrace brings up that memory
actually. And so, I guess it’s associative with all that. Yeah,
it’s real. It’s a really interesting experience to see what our kind of response and reaction to these are
without giving context because I didn’t really give a bunch of instructions or what to do with these words or anything
like that. So this is kind of like an old psychology thing of free association in a way, right? So if a lot of
instruction isn’t given ahead of time and the mind is open and malleable more, then I think at least for me it’s
natural to to from time to time free associate or like what is this bringing up for me? So yeah, you mentioned the
breath and yeah, a lot of these can be used with the breath. Some of them I guess don’t really make a lot of sense with it, but other ones it’s it’s just
kind of our inner experience, right? Um, so it is a very good thing to point out that you know, okay, what are we
accepting? There’s there’s plenty of things that we shouldn’t accept of number one, abuse. Abuse should not be
is never okay, right? So, we don’t want to pretend that we’re going to be all loveydvey with something that we
shouldn’t be with, right? Um, I think what these are more geared towards is um
kind of inner conflict with kind of the things we’re we’re we’re maybe struggling with or um these can help
bring relaxation and ease and a more um like you’re mentioning not as active of
of a role but maybe more of a passive role. And even the ones that call for more activity, they’re really not like
laborious, right? It it’s kind of like, okay, well, the mind needs to get involved like embracing. What do I
embrace? Well, whatever I’m resisting, what if I flipped it around and tried embracing it instead of resisting it or
pushing it away? What would that be like? Maybe it was maybe be like your uncle and be worse, you know? But but it
it it it gives a more of an intensity to to um see what our inner experience is
like when it’s I guess activated or engaged with in a in another way than
our maybe our habit her our habitual patternings and maybe we might notice
something and maybe we might notice I don’t want to ever do that again you know that’s that’s enough for me you
know something like that so and these come to um kind of a radical acceptance
some of these things too. Um, yeah. So, radical means uh from the root.
So, that’s what that’s what radical means. And so, and I just go radical
acceptance, accept it. I just, you know, I I think that there’s always wisdom
with what comes up and what arises. There’s we don’t always know what it is that we’re doing and why we’re doing
stuff. But I think there’s always wisdom with everything. Even when we’re nuts,
it can at least be raw material for wisdom. You know what I mean? We can
either apply wisdom to it or it can be wisdom can be mined from it. Yeah, I
think. Right. So, so, well, more than that, I want to say that there’s it’s
not just like one we do things not because we’re there’s
like one being, I guess, in charge of the whole show. Yeah.
Right. Not that I know of. Yeah. you know, we’ve got memories, we’ve got habits, we’ve got physiology,
but we’ve also got um
yeah. So, so but sometimes there can be like
something underneath the surface that we don’t know why we’re doing that, but we have we create the situation to sort of
force our hand to deal with it. So, I I’ve just been on the phone with a friend of mine. He’s in this whole big
mess with his wife and his family and it’s all just a big money. It’s all big
mess. And there’s a part of me that goes there is actually something I mean it’s
sort of self-inflicted. He he’s done some stuff which has kind of caused lots of problems and he hasn’t
done stuff actually which is the big problem. He didn’t want to face the truth. And so that’s actually a lot of
the reason why he’s in this mess. Um, but there’s a part so there’s a part
of me that wonders whether he’s actually getting himself into a position to
create this calamity actually to make it an irrefutable decision that he has to
make. And so in terms of language and meditation, I think if you’re not
so going back to your your thing with all those words, what I was thinking is
that is with each of those words when it sounds sometimes I feel like I’m forcing
myself to do and behave in a particular way and I don’t want to do that.
So um what does that tell you if if I may ask?
Yeah, it means um I need to pull back and just
go the something’s not right here. Something’s something I’m trying to push
a point or I’m trying to to respond in a way that
sort of sounds like it’s something I should do, but actually there’s some other thing here which I’m not wanting
to see and I need to bring that into the picture. So pushing the point I guess. Yes.
No, that’s it is really beautiful and I’m not. So one of the things if I have
a gripe about certain dhamma teachers they kind of presuppose and preload
these exercises and things to have it okay this is the right way. And it’s not
like that, right? That’s not But it’s it’s like it’s kind of assumed that there’s a whole kind of central core and
that’s what we’re trying to get to and that’s what’s kind of correct and right and the other things, you know, well,
they’re all right, but we know we really want to get to this thing that they’re pointing to and and getting people to
see. And um in this instance I maybe um but the thing if anything for me is to
explore what what happens uh in this and then use discernment um to say okay
what’s actually helpful in this exercise and what’s not you know um maybe universally but also in my own
experience you know um yeah and I think these kind of judgment calls can be good
as long as you know I’m not being judgmental towards myself or someone else and getting satisfaction from it.
But okay, I need to use discernment to say, okay, well, this is helpful, this is not. And I got to open to, okay,
well, maybe I think it’s helpful now, but I also could see, well, maybe I’m deluded about this, or I’m a little bit
off, and what do my wise friends say? What do the teachers say about my assessment and being open to being
checked and and and corrected? And then put it again to the test again and again. And we didn’t even get to
negative words. I didn’t even drop it. Why don’t I have a list of those? But it really is um contrast sometimes where
they’ll drop a really nice, juicy, pleasant, restorative kind of language
and vibe, but then they’ll go 180 and and drop something very harsh and
invoking rage and really unpleasant sensations. And there’s kind of a huge
um disparity or or you know, polarity here. And it it seems to be amplified.
and we didn’t have enough time to really settle down and open up. Meditation
usually to me it it does that kind of as a side effect. Settling down, calming
down and opening, opening, opening and the sensitivity level goes up. So what
I’m normally kind of more armored against um now becomes open and
amplified. So it’s easier to notice. So then my question was in the intro, how
is this going to relate to our lives? You know, one easy thing is, well, well,
I didn’t even notice I was there and now I do. So, surely that informs how what happens when I get off the cushion, even
if it’s just not in a fully conscious way, just and I love that thing you talked about with your friend, how, you
know, it seems to be this almost unconscious tragedy almost uh trying to, you know, just get it to surface until
it cannot be un denied or unconscious anymore. I’ve experienced this for sure. Yeah. this phenomena.
Yeah, I find it happens less now for sure. So, going back to language.
So, I found the article in the conversation and I’ll just sort of say that it’s by
an academic called Rick. Now, this is about as Norwegian a name as you can get. Rick Louise Bundgard Nielsen. So,
that’s so she’s at the University of Melbourne. And she says here the opening paragraph is so the title is called some
work some words affect us more than others. It boils down to how they sound. So this is what I was trying to get to.
Effective communication lies at the heart of human connection. It helps us collaborate with each other.
And I can say it helps us collaborate with ourselves as well. Here problem solve problems and build relationships.
And communicating clearly is a major consideration for most of us in most aspects of life. But what if the way
some words sound makes them more impactful in communication?
So then she goes through a whole lot of stuff and and she just says highly vivid
words are can be are more surprising. Why? Why is that? And so previous
research has shown that words with negative meaning meanings tend to be surprising. This includes words such as
snake or tiger, which is because they clearly communicate danger. Surprising sounds
mean dangerous words are less likely to be confused with other words, but it doesn’t explain why vivid words also
show high levels of surprisal.
Um, so we propose that speakers hack into the
linguistic structure to ensure that listeners attention and memory is drawn toward important concepts.
They do so by unconsciously creating or maintaining surprising word forms because they these word words grab our
attention and stick in our memory more effectively. In this way, the sounds of words are subtly guide guiding how we
focus and learn from language. So what I think is very interesting. So
it says here if we tested enough readers of this article we would be able to de demonstrate better recall for words like
flower and dog than stun and plot because we would kind of not include
those. You can sort of see there’s a difference. So I think that
you know in this very languageheavy society we have a lot of social media
I think we it sort of behooves us to recognize that we take the words that we
listen read internalize and bring them into the rest
of our world and bring them into our meditation.
And as my friend um was saying, his father wrote him a nasty text. Those
words haunt you, you know, and they replay in the mind. And so I think
I I think that can be that that’s quite a lot to carry in meditation. The
thoughts have an energy and they create the body mind to respond and then it
affects how we interact with others, ourselves, how we see ourselves, how we see the people who have said those what
our engagements and behaviors. Anyway, so there you go. It’s it’s it’s it’s um I’m glad you
shared that article. I’m wondering now the what she means by vivid. I mean, we kind of have an idea, but she never
really defined because I think what somebody might consider vivid, another one might uh not. And she does seem to
be kind of presuming, oh, if we tested enough, then we’re sure we would have this outcome. But I mean, that’s like I
I don’t I don’t know about that. But what I do see that something I I I just Sorry, there’s a whole lot of
stuff. Yeah, I skipped a lot in the article. So just as a heads up for that but the vivid thing is really because
these visual striking images you know uh they they do seem to stick with us right
if we read a novel that’s really visually descriptive um think about a pink elephant I mean that is you know
this classic meditation technique of okay whatever you do do not think of a pink elephant right uh so it’s it’s like
this um the mind doesn’t know negative things either right you have to just
like you don’t want to tell kids uh stop running. You want to tell them to slow down. Um so that’s another thing with
with language, right? Um and I can’t cannot count how many times I’ve sat
down in meditation and we’ll start having a um previewing the conversation like I know I’m going to have to speak
to someone or maybe I’ve talked to someone and either the conversation replays or oh if they say this I plan to
say that or this is what I want to say to them. you know, this type of thing. And not to even mention memories, you
know, that come up that, oh, where did that come from? They just sometimes they’ll just pop in and yeah,
so the highly vivid words. So that those that are very specific or concrete are
more surprising. It’s interesting this link of being surprised, you know. Um so it’s almost
that preassumes that um we we have this kind of set patterning. We know where
all the boxes are. Um you know don’t step outside that. Okay. We we’re kind
of expecting you know someone to keep with this line of thought and not do
anything out of the ordinary and I’m just just pacing along and then yeah if you deviate from that that’s surprising
right? It’s called comedy. Right? Like if you think about a great story, a great comedian, what they’ll do is
they’ll they’ll say, “Oh, you know, it like I gave a a cracked a joke at a
thing a couple of months ago and I said, “Oh, you know, you can always do the it’s much less surprising than instead
of saying than you think. It’s much less difficult than you think.” And I said, “Much less difficult than dealing with counsel, you know, like and people
and people sort of were a bit surprised.” Exactly. There is something about using the play
on words but I think in terms of language and meditation
just going back to that what I what I just what I think is not only the
instruction that we are given by teachers and their preferences and their cultural baggages and also as you know
across languages their different things. So we’ve just given a few in English but
um in French or I’m trying to think what in French I don’t I’ve done not done meditation in French or Swedish so I’m
not so familiar with that. Um, but I think that there is something
about words that people tell you and the how much that lands and the language that
they use like that vivid sort of language lands in the body like oh my goodness
did that person just say that to me and it kind of goes over and over or in relationships
you know when and they said this and it’s like, “Oh man, you’re had you’re go
away. You’re not being nice to me. I’m not going to talk to you.”
So, I think I think there is there we take our meditation,
you know, we take our life into our meditation. We take our meditation into our life. It’s not separate.
So, it Yeah, it it Yeah, it’s it’s a really good point. the um and emotions
you know emotions experienced in meditation. I think this is one of the most safest effective ways to deal with
emotions because some people have been they’ve suppressed certain emotions their entire life and told them it’s not
okay to not only u express that but not even really feel it you know and I think
a lot of us guys you know we there’s a not emphasis hardly at all on having any
kind of emotional intelligence whatsoever you know uh looked at as weak and whatnot and you know um look at
these causal links between certain maybe trigger words or you know certain
language that will trigger an emotion or an emotion that seems to evoke a certain
type of language too. So a way to deal with this on the cushion is is not
suppressing it because we can feel the most murderous rage and talk about a maybe a destructive like destroy
everything in its path type emotion. uh it can be felt uh very deeply in the body and but it doesn’t have to be acted
on so nobody um you know gets hurt with it and it doesn’t get suppressed either.
So I guess think of some of the um u like hateful language that we you can
use or be thrown at us like verbal daggers, right? I’m thinking lots of c
cuss words curse words with a certain type of energy uh behind it and maybe a
higher um raised voice as well when this happens you know um this heightened
emotional charge that comes along with some language and vice versa and yeah the Buddha talked about with why speech
Winnie and I have done a couple shows on why speech um and one of them is not using harsh language I’m still far away
from that you know especially when I’m not mindful and I’m matching someone else’s energy who is harsh too, you
know. Um, how many times do I feel justified for saying what I what I say and just, you know, are coming up with
excuses of why I said it later. So, yeah. And and there’s also this thing
where I had one of the bosses in a job I had and she had this very gentle soft
way of saying it but it was extremely aggressive
very passive aggressive. And so this idea that harsh words are
those which are spoken with a sharp tone isn’t in in many ways it’s more genuine.
So, you know, I have my community group, you know, I have my community group and I I I’m got this thing where I’m getting
all the foot paths fixed through an app and all the rest. And the guy who does all the fixing of the foot paths, he
rings me up and he says, “Now, Wendy, I’m like really cranky with you.” He’s
really like he’s he’s a guy. He’s a manual guy. And he’s like, and I really like it because I just go I said, “Look,
I didn’t want to, you know, make you cranky.” And he said, “Too late. I’m already too cranky. Are you?” Oh my god.
And he’s like, “Who’s doing this?” Oh, it’s Wendy Nash. Oh my god. And he’s and
he and his colleague, he’s recounting the the conversation with with me and he’s like totally filthy with me. And at
some level I’m fine with that because I mean I felt a bit like oh yeah well I I
didn’t behave my best self for sure but I prefer that than some of the stuff where I have to deal with people further
up the food chain and they are toxic
it’s it’s more veiled it’s this veneer of and and it’s hidden behind this
bureaucratic ease language which is uh uh just such you know I avoiding any any
person you know and in a way I think it’s slimy and snaky
totally totally weasel all the way and so I think the question is what does it
mean to be aggressive in language is part of that and I think and one of the
the lo jong slogans says don’t act with a twist And it’s that weasly smy whatever.
Oh, totally. And that’s that’s why the first tenant is honesty, right? Not saying mistrous. And that’s where it
borders on. And like I’ve mentioned before, my my girlfriend says, why do so many people say one thing, mean
something else, and then act in an entirely different way altogether than that even. So that’s the first tenant is
honesty, right? Because if it’s not honest, then then then we got a whole bunch of problems. It said that people
who feel no shame in telling a lie, there’s no limit to the evil they can
do, you know. So it’s um yeah, it’s uh yeah, because there’s there’s like no safeguard. Um so and this is can be
internal too, you know. Are we being honest with ourselves? Some people don’t even know if they’re really being honest
and that I think that maybe that’s something different, you know. Um but seeing um at least being open to the
practice of seeing the benefits of honesty and uh yeah sometimes our voice
needs to be raised and you know it’s really um I genuine niceness is pleasant
you know it has to be kindness but then the neness can be extra on top of it. It
can be extra pleasantness, but we have some people that will have this false niceness that they’re actually being
harmful and insidious and covering it up and s basically a sarcastic neness,
right? And it is just absolutely um toxic, you know. Um and uh yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that I I’m going to be gendered and and I just think that
women can be really nasty in the way they use language. There was a guy I I worked with and he said, you know, I
think his wife worked at a school or something and and his line was, uh, when it’s something when something dumb
that’s happened, that’s the boys. When it’s something mean that’s happened, that’s the girls.
Very well. And it’s very interesting because everybody goes, “Yeah, that’s so true.”
And yet bullying is seen to be this guy thing and this nastiness that can really
and I think both men and women can be nasty, but there is a a a nasty thing
that happens with girls for sure. Women and and I have been I have been a I’ve
done that too. And I’ve done it when I have not been my best self. And I’ve done it when I felt that I didn’t have
any other forms of power available to me. That’s right. And it’s a really good way to put it. And and in a way, it’s
understandable there because, you know, there’s a bullying that’s more physical and intimidating, but there’s also with
a with a sharp tongue, right? Or um with a silver tongue, but that’s also sharp.
And uh yeah, in deception, deception can get getting back at people with deception, too. and just being harsh and
saying one thing but presenting another way and uh presuming something else and
seeing testing someone’s intelligence with it or seeing if they can yeah just there’s just so many ways to be nasty
with with speech too and I think part of it for me is as soon as I catch it is just kind of not tolerating it speaking
up and even if it’s not uh right in the s situation I like doing this thing of testing people where I kind of try to
make it clear through what I’m saying that I’m calling the person out on their BS or what they’re doing and letting
them know it’s not okay, but sometimes can do it in a um kind of a humorous way
that will also not cause disruption for anyone around that’s not qued in to how
they’re actually using language and the intent. So, it’s a kind of a very sophisticated word game, but it’s um
when no one else is around, I have no qualms with really um speaking up and
making it clear that what they’re doing is not okay. And um yeah, sometimes making a joke about it can disarm the
situation and make them realize how ridiculous they’re being in what they’re saying. Sometimes that works, but
sometimes that backfires. Um I I think it’s true, you know, like I think there’s definitely truth to that,
but I I think you have to build up a lot of relationship first and a lot of goodwill with that first. Otherwise,
you’re putting yourself in a position you haven’t been given permission to do that. So, this is something I have had
to learn. You know, I tend to just go, “Yeah, but you’re speaking RA.” And then, of course, you know, look in the
mirror. No, no, no. I don’t want to look in the mirror. It’s all about you. You’re the problem, not me. And I was like, “Of course it’s me who’s the
problem.” So, um, yeah, it can be both. It could be both, you
know, and that’s that’s right. Well, of course, kindness is always going to be the best thing. And e having excess of
that is going to be really hard. So yes, all the other stuff aside, totally in total agreement with that. Sometimes we
have to give our ourselves permission though too, you know, and sometimes that gets me in trouble. Um, but sometimes I
feel called to do it and sometimes I have to reap the consequences of doing it. And other times I just need to bite
my tongue, take the hit and be okay with a bunch of unpleasantness right now, but
that’s going to save uh it’s going to save a lot more unpleasantness in the
future. You know, that’s the harder lesson because it is so tempting sometimes to keep on.
I was just thinking about that. So, I’ve got a bit of a situation with one of my local counselors and he’s blocked me
from his um social media accounts, which he’s not allowed to do according to the
code of conduct. Well, that’s my understanding, but he says, “Well, I can do it because it’s not um provided by
the council, so it’s my private one. It’s public facing but it’s my account so I can do what I like. So I had to go
into the um what’s called the office of independent assessors. So these are the people who
um are the guardians of the code of conduct so to speak for counselors and
counselors is the is like I mean m municipality I don’t mean I like a therapist and so
they then asked me for evidence. So what have you done? And I was there was one particular
exchange and I remember at the time just going somebody wrote an offensive term
and I wrote I was I remember at the time going ah isn’t he just you know whatever
but I just went don’t go there don’t go there and but I did write love it because I was so like
but it’s really like it it was a very offensive way that she put it but I then
had to submit that through to the official authorities. ities, government agencies going, you know,
what what is this? And it just made me really realize
really brought home to me in all situations.
If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. And in fact, I’ve got a friend who’s uh currently she
lives in Germany and she’s just on holidays in in Greece and she was just messaged me. She was talking with me on
a little voice message um through one of the apps and she said, “Oh, and I and
I’m making all these these relation building these relationships with academics who come to my university and
in to my group and and they talk about it.” And I just right afterwards going, “Oh, you know, thanks so much. It was
really lovely.” and she said it’s so easy to be kind
and it reaps such great rewards and language is how we are kind and how
we are mean and how we can get ourselves into trouble.
It’s a really good Wow. Yeah, it’s it’s really important because I could remember the times before and still a
little bit now but way worse where there was just such a satisfaction and getting
some being right you know and what a pointless pursuit that is a lot of times you know yes standing up for something
that’s important to stand up for but to win an argument so I can get some kind of momentary satisfaction it’s it’s it
leads it can lead to like kind of more depressive states I think you know because it’s at the end it’s kind of
hollow. Do we want to be right or do we want to have peace and harmony basically, right? And when is it right
to keep pursuing something in order to be right, whatever that means in a way. Um or to to keep peace and harmony. Now,
it’s easier said than done, right? I’m slipping up all the time, right? And I don’t even realize it. I one teacher
says, “Is this really worth me giving my peace up over?” you know, so it’s a great it’s a great thing to
remember, you know, but it is hard sometimes though when you’re in the thick of this. I feel very wronged, you
know, like my local counselor and I just and I’m just going, “Yeah, but no, but it’s and I I’m selfrighteous, you know,
and I’m and and I can’t critical and dogmatic family and push the point and
that’s my family history. So I’ve got that and, you know, generations before me exactly the same. and began
entitlement too around it, right? Yeah. Or I’m standing up for justice and this
is the way it should be and has to be, you know, and uh well maybe but maybe not. Um
you know, and and my my social class is historically, you know, quite sort of um
upper middle class with servants and things like this. And so, yeah, so you should go and do that so I can feel
myself do that. It’s like really mean. And then I have that all going in my meditation all the time. And and that’s
what I think is so helpful about meditation is that it just goes don’t do it. It sort of helps me kind of go what
are the consequences? What are the consequences? And I’m like nobody but want
no no but it’s not fair. I don’t want to hear. It is it’s like a kid. Yeah. I stick my fingers in their ears.
Tell it to the la. Yeah. I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear it. Yeah. Do you know it is it it is like a little
tantrum sometimes. And what we what meditate how this applies to meditation is we can see this so much at least I
can see this so much clearer in meditation everything we’ve been talking about gives the space gives the container uh gives the quietness um and
to to to see this and to have it replay and then get fed up with oh my god I
have to sit here and have this replay in my head or whatever and I’m wasting all my time sitting for meditation. So we
can see uh part of it is sitting down without regret. So this is the one of the things with the precepts. If we’re
keeping these precepts more um diligently and taking that as a training too, then when we sit down, a lot of
this gunk doesn’t have to come up. And so everything that Wendy or not everything, but a lot of we’ve talked
about has been complete noise that doesn’t really have to happen so much anymore when we sit down where I both of
us I feel are speaking from our own experience here and how we can now see this stuff and we can choose otherwise.
That’s the other nice thing about meditation is that it gives more space to um give a response instead of
reaction where usually it’s just operating more on habitual habit patterns and react reactivity where now
we can see oh we wait a second there we actually have a space here to make a choice and don’t don’t have to just have
that happen the way it’s always or a lot of times happened. Yeah. and how we talk
to ourselves too. This internal self-t talk, the language we use to ourselves as well. Yeah. I think is really
important. Uh when we’re on the cushion or when that part of meditation surfaces. Yeah.
I I feel that on the cushion like the way that I speak to others is the and
the way that I speak about others is how I is really just more the
external experience of how I see the world. So when I was a younger woman, I was very judgmental and I would be like,
“Oh, those people are so judgmental, you know, those people over there.” So it was like my
ironic, right? Yeah. I Well, I judging people for judging. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so um
it’s a common trait, you know, he’s so judgmental. It’s like, well, I think you’re being judgmental, but you know. Yeah. But that’s different because I’m
doing the judgment. But but even that’s being judgmental. It’s just like this like you look in a
million mirrors and it just keeps going on and on and on, you know. So, but how do you talk about it if you don’t even
say that? You can’t even, you know, you just have to sit there and have um won’t
there’s a saying wouldn’t say crap if they had a mouthful of it, you know. Yeah. So, it’s that’s why yes, we have
to speak out sometimes and Yeah. Anyway, so I’ve talked about my views on this,
but but I think that what I see my experience in the 20 odd years of
practice is that because I try and speak with love and kindness as much as
possible, recognizing that I’m a fully flawed human being, far from enlightenment,
that um a I’m funnier and I just let things go, but b I And I can see that
I’m kind of an idiot. Like, and I don’t mean like giving, but I’m like a bit of a doofus, you know? It’s like, oh, you
know, there was a great thing. Um, it’s my birthday today. Um,
what is it? Uh, h what is it?
Uh, old fool. And then last year, no difference. You know, it’s like I still
like that. Um, last year old fool, this year no
difference. That’s what it is. Um, but I do feel that speaking with others
more kindly um has a direct effect on the positive way
that I feel speak to myself and speaking with myself with more
awareness and kindness. And so I’ve just come to this idea that uh
um feeling ashamed is where I thought I was doing the right thing, but then I
realized I did the a bad thing. I felt like I was doing something good and I realized I I actually was did something
bad and I didn’t want to own that I had
done something bad but I actually had done something bad you know and I think
that that is a a useful um totally to useful way of seeing shame
and then by owning more and more shame I can be kinder and kinder and then when somebody says I feel so ashamed we go
yeah well you acted you tried I you you thought you were going to do something good, but actually what you did was bad
and and it is true. You know, it’s maybe not a bad thing to know that you actually acted badly cuz that’s kind of
the human condition. So yeah, anyway, I’m crapping on. No, no, I think this maybe might be an
episode we can do. Um uh here in Otapa this is a moral shame and a moral uh
fear not the shame where I beat myself up and feel horrible about everything and I can never do anything right but
it’s this protective what you’re talking about here this really moral or ethical
shame that is really helpful you know um and they’re called the guardians of the world so I think maybe we can we can
explore that uh for a future time I wanted to kind of do do this because I I need it for my own learning in
distinction on this to a little bit of a a more study uh because I tend to bypass these sometimes and get around them when
I probably shouldn’t as much. But this, you know, this notion this I I don’t know if it’s self-deprecating, but what
you mentioned there what what was coming to me is it seems like um the intent you have behind this is to be more relatable
and more belonging because if I present my let’s just throw it back on me. If I present myself as, you know, super
smart, super intelligent, I got it all together, you know, I’m so this and that, then then I’m not very relatable,
right? So, but if I if I take myself down, you sound like a really boring, irritating person. I’m like, I don’t
want to talk to him a lot of times. But, but, you know, but if I take myself down a notch with self-deprecation,
then it’s, you know, it’s it’s it’s kind of funny. Uh, and it’s relatable. You
know, so I I can see that. On the other hand, you know, what if we could just
shine and be who we are without needing to give extra effort to to have
belonging and you know what I mean? Like so I I can I can kind of see it both ways, right? Because it is relatable to
consider myself doing things foolish from time to time. And of course that’s going to happen anyway. But you know um
to to to be down on myself a little bit um to you know I don’t know um but this
is another thing conceit right that’s kind of inferiority conceit. But the other one I just talked about like I’m so good I’m got it all together. I’m
wise. That’s that’s an inferiority. We can obviously see that one. But I don’t know what do you what do you what do you
say about this? Because uh I can see the pros and cons of of this kind of self-deprecation if if that’s what we’re
talking about. Or maybe that’s maybe I’m off. I I Yeah, I just would be concerned
about the humble brag. Oh, yeah. That’s a big one. Yeah. They’re like, “That’s a bad look. Don’t
do that.” Yeah. Oh, I do that so much. Yeah. Yeah.
It’s really bad, you know. Is it? Are you serious? Yeah. Well, I mean, like you Oh, yeah. I’m going traveling here and I Oh, I’m
so busy. Being so busy. That’s ridiculous. You know, like I it used to be like I I used to wse at people that
did that where that like that’s kind of admiral, but I find myself doing it now, too. Oh, I I’m so busy. I’ve got all
this stuff to do, you know? I So I So I think when people say they’re busy, actually they’re chronically
overwhelmed. I think it’s actually a sign of feeling overwhelmed and not feeling like you’ve
got all your resources. I think that’s all it means. I think it’s a marker of being in an individualist society that
you have to do everything on your own and that’s why we say we’re busy. That’s what I think is going on with that.
That’s really wise. I think that there’s a lot to that. Yeah. Yeah. Um but I think the humble brag
uh Yeah. But I think the humble brag, oh yeah, I didn’t do that as well. You
know, like, oh, I, you know, just like, oh, and false humility. Like false humility. Exactly.
But I think if you if you did something and you were you got it, it’s like, oh my god, how about that? I did it. Isn’t
that super cool? High five. High five. Yeah. It’s like super exciting. But likewise, oh man, I
totally trashed it. I was like really bad. For me, it’s more about being sincere and spontaneous and understand
where things are and not being a miserable git. You know, I think the
idea of being a miserable git is a bad idea. And I think the idea of being guilty for being happy is a bad idea.
So, um, it’s just about being with what is here. And what is here is kindness
and love. And that’s a beautiful thing. It reminds me of a saying of the Buddha that more
than a thousand words is is one word that brings peace, you know, and it’s so
that’s so beautiful. Really kind of ironic here that we’ve got um a show where we talk for basically a full hour
straight, which by the way, we’re coming to a close here. Um so yeah, Wendy, is
there any um kind of final words that you’d like to wrap up with here? I think
that, you know, it’s Christmas in a couple of days and in a couple of weeks and that can be quite tense and give
yourself some slack. Try and be kind. Skip the alcohol if you can. And then
because that just makes you a bit grimy and groty afterwards and not a very nice person. So, um, yeah.
More willing to do things you normally wouldn’t do on the unhusive side. Yeah. I mean, get pay the consequences later.
Yep. Yeah. And that that’s yeah so just take it easy and do your best and we look
forward to seeing you in 2026. Here here I totally agree with all that.
Couldn’t echo it more. So thank you all for listening, tuning in, being here or listening whenever you do, watching
whenever you do. And thanks again to Wendy and bye everybody.
Integrating Presence 
One thought on “Language | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #38”