In this thirty-second installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we plan to share our current (meditation) practices. Stuff like what they are, for how long we’ve been doing them, how they are going, why we are doing them, etc. asking each other (specific) questions about our practices.
Wendy brings up lack and worthiness and explore how types of conceit play into this. There is talk of ambiguous loss and how reflecting regularly on loss can help. I mention samatha practice and Wendy mentions Rob Burbea in light of jhana. Wendy shares that acknowledging ease from others is at the heart of her metta practice. And actually during the show it was likely a sewer pumping truck instead of a trash truck. Of course we welcome questions about meditation practice before, during and after the Q & As
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Current Practice Share | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #32
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
presence and inner skilled and today joined by Wendy Nash again for our 30
second meditation Q&A Wendy what’s going on 30 second Q&A We’ve got 30 seconds
Stop there Your time is up So I think we’ve got our 30 minute Q&A today And you’re on retreat Josh So
that’s that’s really true I’m here on Gabby Gabby country in Queensland in Kabula And Josh you are not in
Queensland You’re not in Australia Whereabouts are you in the United
Kingdom And I’ve kind of given up on correcting people about on one retreat because it is more or less a retreat So
it’s at a Thai forest tradition in in in the lineage of Ajan Cha Monastery
outside of London at Amraati And I’m actually not at the monastery grounds right now outside but I’m living
probably amongst over 20 beus uh there’s usually more here and I don’t know how many um
female monastics nuns maybe 10 and seminaras and people called anagarakas
and anagarakas which are they’re the testing before they get to nost all all
in white but anyway yeah it’s um it’s it’s it’s quite a place to to be in practice and today we’re here to talk
about our current practice ices Speaking of this so the little description I have here is in this 30 30 whoops uh 302nd
installment of the ongoing live series of Wy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion We plan
to share our current meditation practices Stuff like what are they for how long how long are we doing them how
how are they going and why we’re doing them etc We will likely even ask each other specific questions about our
practices like in the modes of being um spirit uh spiritual friends
um in the roles of teachers and coaches and of course we welcome any questions
about meditation practices now and and after this So yes meditation practice I
mean that’s what this thing is called meditation Q&A I’ll just throw it back to Wendy right away and say Wendy what
is your what is your practice uh recently what are you practicing in meditation well I well practicing
getting wrong often So I thought when you said 30 30 second uh thing I was
going well it’s 30 seconds I think we’re going for 30 minutes and I’m going actually we’re probably going longer and you actually meant 30 the number 32 So
there you go Why we’re on small talk it’s a it’s a thing So if you’re from Germany or you’re from the UK if you say
let’s see half half 8 In the UK that means 8:30 but in Germany it means 7:30
So there’s been confusion from people this is international place of them missing appointments because they don’t understand where the Brits say half 8 So
the states we say 8 then there’s no but yeah these and you can’t they say like
10 to the hour but if you say 22 the hour well then you have a number 22 and
you can’t use cuz if you’re just talking you don’t say 22 because that could be the number 22 or 20 minutes and then I
say 20 tell which not very many people say that and people can get confused by saying 20 It’s a shortening for until So
20 until the until the top of the hour But if I say 20 till people are like
“What are you talking about?” Yeah Yeah I mean this is numbers in English Well
it’s you know this is the thing about cultural differences and and when you
live in different countries and you know I’m Australian Just do you want to mute just there for a sec Josh cuz you’re Oh yes
That’s right It’s windy Yes Yeah So um when it’s like I’m I’m Australian
I was raised here but my parents are English and I’ve lived in England a couple of times but I’ve also lived in
Sweden So and in Sweden they say half 8 which is half 7:30 And then in England 8
is 8:30 So in Australia we say uh 20 to 10 or 20 to 8 or um but we also we would
never say 20 before the hour like you wouldn’t 20 before 8 You would just say 20 to 8 or quarter to 8 So that’s that’s
kind of all you do quarter 20 but in Danish you have a whole lot of other ways of saying like
25 that’s different in Danish So that’s a bit more complicated and all these
things you know and and I think what this does is it those sorts of experiences and the different ways
language is used say sort of make you more aware of well just because I do it
this way doesn’t mean to say this is the only way to do it or even the right way to do it or even a better way to do it
you know so you know it’s that’s yeah
yeah it’s a really good point Um yeah in in Danish I think the literal translation is what does the clock
say and I love that because it’s this whole kind of abstract notion of time
and relativity and but the clock okay it’s a physical object it’s doing it
What does it say i like that And um the cultural thing was uh it was really it’s it’s helpful here because
you have people from all around the world And I was just so inspired by um just an Indian an Indian practitioner
and a Sri Lankan practitioner and they just so much more culturally involved in
Buddhism So they really knew kind of the sutas and the stories ins and out So I
could ask them about all these different things and and just kind of see how their heart was kind of more in it While
some of the westerner practitioners nothing against them it’s kind of like okay look at me and my lifestyle and you
know kind of my my spiritual ego and you know almost virtue signaling and you
know uh kind of these this outer trappings in this personality level in
the shell basically it didn’t kind of get to the heart where I can listen to them tell stories about the Buddha and
how inspired they were by hearing these and what’s possible you know well some
people might say well that’s just kind of cultural indoctrination or you know they’ve been got to at an early age And
maybe that’s true but it just it just um it touched my heart a little bit more than just another you know okay look at
me in my in my spiritualism and you know um all the different things and I I
don’t know how to put it So but you know I I I I’ve got plenty of both of these as well So wi with with that you know I
think inspiration is another thing for practice And then I guess we’ll get back to my question here of um what your
practice is And it’s weird I I kind of hear like a background chatter I don’t know if there’s a radio on Do you hear
anything i don’t No I haven’t got anything There’s a dog barking on the opposite side of the street I hear I
hear that too I hear that too No it’s I I maybe I’ll figure it out but it’s not that big a deal Okay so practice
So I’ve been looking a lot at at the sensation of lack actually and how this
is sort of a physical kind of contraction in the chest it arises and
it sort of matches in with um the experience of emotions like um dis
disappointed or sad or you know maybe somebody looks down at me which is a
psychological one and just seeing how it all kind of comes together in this kind of creation of self and other opposite
and I’m really curious to understand what it is that is this self
the the sense of lack and how that maps to the self and it arises So um I I’ve
been really looking at that that question of what is the sort of
sensation and physical and emotional and psychological experience and the
cognitive experience of lack and how much that creates a boundary and it’s like we get we get connected by our
sense of disconnection to other people I think that’s very interesting when you’re kind of really cranky with
somebody and you feel disconnected and alienated from them but actually you’re
tight in connected to the sense of disconnection So I’m very interested in
that So that’s where my practice is How about you i I think if I can touch on
that um that’s that’s a really good way of taking something that seems like a problem and turning it into to to
flipping it on its head and actually making that sense of disconnection uh a a connection point among people who
feel disconnected And I think there’s a lot of that with our technology now people feel maybe wired in tech
technological wise but they feel kind of disconnected from like real human experience like face to face and I think
there’s a lot of people empathizing with that right now and so ironically perhaps
that is a thing of connection I wanted to jump before I get into the kind of nuts and bolts of my formal sitting
practice which I love doing but maybe not everybody’s so interested um I want to ask the lack lack in a what what
sense Wendy If I may ask is it um a lack of um I don’t know Yeah just put examples
Lack what’s what’s being lacked just kind of an abstract sense or is there something specific that’s worth
mentioning so it’s you know the sense of lack So
I’m not good enough I um I have problems I’m a fake Um I feel looked down upon
like it doesn’t matter what it is When when I the reason it came up is because I was really curious about this I was I
was kind of wondering what is it that is the germ of
uh the self and and those thoughts that sort of create a lot of energy So I was
wanting to know what was that point and so this is what was revealed and it was like everything was kind of gallivanting
along it It was sort of quiet and then as it kind of I didn’t want to feel a
sense of lack What happened is it sort of gathered momentum and it sort of created
energy and it skipped over the top and and so I was really curious about that
Whereas if I just experience well I don’t feel good enough today or in this
moment I don’t feel good enough then then actually
uh if I just agree and I say well I don’t feel I don’t feel good enough actually I feel
um un unable to or unworthy in something
and just allow myself to feel that experience and then the self can’t form
So the sense of lack is somehow highly correlated with
uh feeling a sense of lack So the sense of lack and self kind of come together and it’s existential So I can say well I
have I feel thirsty I lack water Okay So I’ve got my water and that’s existential
I need water I need food I need connection I need people I need sort of
storytelling and creativity and things and um a sort of a sense of contribution
into the society into the participation with others lives to not have that would be I mean
you would die without any of those so it’s existential and so I was very curious
about like the sense of sort of how this arises and continues news and there’s a
I sort of did a bit of research on this and it turns out that Rob Burbia So if
you’ve heard of Rob Burbia he’s a um and he he died recently actually um but
he does a lot of Janna practice and or he did a lot of Janna practice and he
speaks a lot about the sense of lack So there you are as it happens So there you
go It it’s another another s uh synchronicity here that you mentioned
Rob and I’m not so familiar with his teachings but I’m booked on at Gaia House which is basically the house of
Rob Burbaya in the UK So it’s a retreat center
uh based basically on his teachings When they say they have all the Dhamma talks like what do you mean all the damma talks they have all his damat talks and
that’s they listen to them in a special room at a special time So it is I would
say kind of the house of Rob Berba So I’ll learn more when I go there again But this this sense of lack I can feel
it when you’re talking kind of this tightness in the chest and there’s a there’s a sense of sadness too you know
um a little sense of sadness and I certain thing here
especially for a male like me the stereotypical male that has um challenging time connecting with
feelings that wants to just jump into the the cognitive part of it right away and do kind of a cognitive override It’s
not necessarily to to not feel it It’s just my strate in in and going to things
So I think before anything I say here what’s more important is this felt sense
and allowing it to be there and feeling it and experiencing the visceral sense of it instead of just cutting that off
or jumping over that into into cognition Okay So that
said it we’ve talked about conceit You know usually we think of conceit as and
this isn’t necessarily judgment We all have this until I think we’re fully awakened Usually we think of conceit as
oh I’m better than that person I I’m you know look down on that person That person’s not worthy of my time effort
whatever There’s also an inferiority conceit I’m not good enough I I I I
don’t live up to this Um I I I don’t you know so in a sense I think this is
something to explore too And this is more common I think in in meditation circles in Dharma circles and though it
it is a conceit though in a way because yeah you know and so let’s just those
are the main ones and there’s inequality conceit I I see Wendy wants to say something here but then I want to I want
to I want to come back to this too because this is really important I have a couple other points Sure Well conceit
just put your mute on there Um so conceit is just um really the idea of of
being separate and being above or below and it doesn’t matter which way you go
and it’s just to say that the self arises but in your in what you said
there you said um you tend to you know um be more
cognitive and ride over which is the kind of not good enough You could hear the not good enough in that
experience So you’re doing the same And this is just what everybody does you
know and it’s wise because you can’t always speak about all your emotions at
the right time and at at the time it happens because it’s too intense So the mind will just
do its thing and put keep you safe and then at 3:00 in the morning it’ll wake you up and it’ll say okay now let’s have
a bit of a debrief which about those emotions and how it’s all coming together So it’s just this is the the
way it works It’s not about um it it’s not that anybody is above or
below but it is the sense of separation and disconnection that arises when the self arises from either being above or
below And both of those say there is a sense of lack Both of those they’re
identical in that way So that’s that’s that Over to you
Really beautiful to to put it that way too And see I didn’t even really realize it until you pointed it out And as soon
as you pointed it out you know there’s this saying that even a mountain of gold wouldn’t be enough You know so um this
this notion of lack you know um I think I I mentioned this It seems for the traditional feminine aspects of
us there’s a need for value and validation you know and and this sense
of worth you know and when we we’re kind of looking for from it from the outside
I don’t think it will ever be enough it won’t even be sufficient
um because no one knows kind of no one is hanging out with me as much as me
right so I have to give myself this sense of earth and and even belonging in
where do I belong in my own heart you know even and so I think all these qualities um we we it it’s so important
to get them from within and then anything from without is just kind of maybe icing on the cake because it will
I don’t think it will ever be enough coming from the outside You know what I mean and the more traditional masculine
qualities it’s it’s honor and respect you know we talked we had a whole um thing on this and you know I there’s
times in my life where I just didn’t feel like anybody was you know respecting me or you know honoring or
you know gave didn’t care the but it was me imposing um what I was wanting to try to
control their behavior to how what I wanted from them around me and it’s ridiculous because I can’t control other
people right and plus the main but the main thing was I really wasn’t respecting myself and I wasn’t giving
respect where respect was due too And even worse than that was probably lack of dignity You know the the the sense of
dignity that everybody um is is just it’s just a basic human mode of
operation It it hadn’t fully come online the way it should have um or there were
things clouding it or however you want to say And yeah so this this internal notion I think is really important when
it comes to this this um this lack as well because in in a way it is kind of a
it can be a construct of the mind and heart and a perception you know what
what one man’s trash is another man’s treasure you know what um how much do we
really need to feel not in a sense of lack some people can get by on very little I’m just talking kind of a uh
ridiculous external example Some people that are like rich and have to have a
bunch of stuff They have to have all kinds of stuff and have everything go
exactly right to feel some kind of sense of contentment or ease And then you look at you know the other kind of extreme
like aesthetics you know they have uh robes a bowl and you know food and
shelter and medicine and they could be very very content or we look at you know developing nations and how some people
are actually better off in the heart there than really rich people fighting to control power and and whatever And I
think I’ll throw that back We got a truck here Yeah So but you can hear there in the way that you’re describing
it that one is better than the other And that suggests that there is lack there
that sits between between the you know this high hierarchy of one is above and one is below So this this is again so I
would encourage you now that you’re on retreat to to notice how many times you
think that you’re better you’re worse you haven’t got enough or you know you’re in the lunchroom Uh I want more
or all of it Or I’m cleverer than this other person or I’m I’ve got it and I
understand what’s going on and they don’t and they’re fake and they’re sincere and they really get it all this
it’s exactly the same thing you go it’s compare it’s comparison conceit so this is the other one we didn’t mention above
below and comparison or equality conceit they talk about yes um but how do you mean with contentment here like uh I’m
lacking you know like what do you you know what I mean like how does uh how much is enough I guess that’s one thing
you know so I I was looking at the idea of you know duka which is obviously the
first the idea that Life is uncomfortable You know you’re in an you’re in a cart and you’ve got these
terrible roads which are all full of mud and ravines and then you’re in a cart
and the wheels are difficult and they go clunk clunk clunk You’re never comfortable You can never be you can
never be comfortable enough actually And so basically the first noble truth is
saying you will always experience a sense of lack that is existential to
your experience The second one is there is a cause to the experience of lack and that is the arising of the self The
second is um the third is that the self does end This sense it does end And the
fourth is well we’ve got a bit of a path going here This is how you do it basically to not feel the sense of lack
create a self because if you just have a sense of lack but I would encourage
you every time for the rest of your day to notice every single time you feel not
good enough not right or more this or less that it is comparison but there is
a quality to it which puts the self in
the front of it So there you go Well I want to know about your your meditation
And I want to know what you’re doing Sure And I’ll just pick that up um here But there the there’s a trash truck or I
guess they’re they’re sucking something up So hopefully it’s not too loud and the noise removal will get this But um
it’s interesting how you frame the second noble truth as an arising of a self the cause of suffering And I hadn’t
really heard it put that way You and I see that But there are also times when I
think a sense of self is is can be helpful or at least in a relative sense not an absolute sense but usually I
think of clinging clinging in the sense that I have to have it comfortable all the time you know it I I you know I
shouldn’t be uncomfortable and then when it gets taken away then oh no I want it back I I I you know you know so and so
like this trash truck that’s just that’s the cause of my suffering No it’s how it’s how I’m framing it now Oh I want it
to be different Getting what I don’t want right that’s one of the the classical things of dooka right and uh
not getting what not getting what I want and getting what I don’t want So so it’s it’s how much am I clinging to that you
know and um so this yeah the the sense of the um oh and generosity So the
Buddha started everybody with generosity too because when there’s a sense of lack sometimes it’s this me like you’re
saying the self it’s me that doesn’t have XYZ or not enough of XYZ or it
shouldn’t be this way for me Uh
generosity kind of flips it on its head It doesn’t matter really how much or how little I have It’s the it’s the
act act of uh you know to to sharing to to to benefiting another and at the same
time it will uplift my heart It gets to the heart of the of the receiver if
they’re you know uh willing to take the generosity and and it kind of it kind of reorients the whole um way of being
where in the world it’s just like what can I get for
me you know what do am I missing in my life you know how can I get more this
type of thing like that Or I’m a horrible person I can’t and nothing ever goes right for me You know why am I
always so stupid and you know um uh yeah it people don’t get me so on and on and
on instead of that yeah flipping it and I think that’s a um it’s it’s so beautiful and I had a talk with my
teacher too of how I’m just actually even taking for granted every chance I
get to serve the Zanga it starts to turn into going in with the intention I would
want to you know give this gift of service um to ultimately end greed
hatred and delusion and do that before during and after And this intentionality
really means a lot you know Um and I think I’m going to throw it back to Wendy one more time before I I jump into
my meditation my formal meditation practice here Yeah I don’t know So the other thing
I’ve been really thinking about is um sort of how I think it’s I’ve
actually been thinking about ambiguous loss actually that we are a society
which is absolutely filled with ambiguous loss Now ambiguous loss came
around from the Vietnam War when soldiers went missing in action and
their wives were going well am I married or am I widowed what do I do what do I
do with Veterans Affairs what do I you know well I’ve got you know Steve here and he’s really lovely and what do I do
about that and um how I I want to move
Should I leave the house and and all these really complex questions that they they were sort of grieving but they had
no funeral to attend There was no marker There was no end And so later after that
it became about dementia and how people’s bodies were still there but the
mind was slowly withering away And so the person was there but not there you know And also people with disabilities
when they acquire a disability they go well I’m me but I’m not me anymore So again this kind of thing and Esther Pel
who’s a relationship expert she says when somebody’s on their phone all the time and the other one is um not there
that’s also a form of ambiguous loss cuz you you’re missing your relationship And
I started to think about this from a societal perspective You know everything is online now And so
uh you know you go to a government agency and you want help but you’re sort of directed to the
website or even if you do get an officer the officer is just reading off the
website So you’re not really able to connect with a person or you get letters back from government departments that are vacuous and empty no one says
anything because of there’s so much fear about it So it’s very difficult to get
this engagement And so I’ve been really thinking about how our society
today you know even here you’re muted and you’re on the other side of the
planet You’re not sitting next to me having a yarn You know you’re just um
you’re you’re somewhere else and we’re having to navigate the tech in order to be able to have that happen And there is
an ambiguous loss that arises in this relationship between well we have a
relationship we’ve been doing this for a couple of years now and we meet regularly and yet we’ve actually never
met so I don’t actually know you there’s lots of things about you I don’t know
and and vice versa and so I’ve just been really curious about this sense of
loss that we don’t have community We don’t have people We don’t have connection in a way
that is I can just ring up and find out Everybody’s really lonely socially isolated in one form or another So just
that’s the other thing And how have I been thinking about that with my practice it’s really
uh just noticing this ambiguity in the connection You know I’m a very
relational person So that that means that’s important to me So yeah So that’s
me There you go It totally is And this ties right into
the the five topics for frequ frequent recollection Easy for me to say these
people it’s called the five daily rec recollections Um and it is loss you know
everything that I hold dear will be become otherwise will become separated from me and how deep does that go and
Wendy is mentioning these this ambiguous thing So we’re not just talking about a super obvious loss like we lose someone
in our lives they or a disaster happens and we lose a physical object or we lose
a job or you know um or you know some people lose a limb or some people lose
their minds you know temporarily or whatever And this is inevitable in a human life But as Wendy pointed out
there are more and more subtle layers of this right um there’s a lot of ambiguous
uh is this loss is this not and I think one of the ways to help what’s coming to me is to cut through this is that um
yeah you know even if we can’t discern exactly is this a loss or not or where
is the loss it it it is the the main thing is that this is something that
happens in life and the more we reflect on it and the more prepare for it it’s not to get bummed out to bum ourselves
out It’s to say “Oh this is just how it is This is the way this reality is structured.” So when it happens there’s
less devastation less fallout you know less grieving Uh I mean nothing wrong
with grieving but if we’re we we have this kind of down in our bones that this is the way it is This is part of the
human experience then being in alignment with that truth of the way things are
actually can bring a lot of happiness because we’re not denying that it shouldn’t be that way This is how it is
And reflecting on that again and again I think helps orient the heart towards the
way things are instead of trying to cope with things that we don’t want you know
that we think shouldn’t happen Yeah maybe it shouldn’t happen but it does you know and so how can we um yeah what
happens to the heart when that happens and then when we reflect on that and then if we reflect on that over and over
again how does that go into the real world and um how am I better off and
those around me when I’ve spent that time reflecting on this and and really touching into the heart on a regular
basis instead of just having it bam and then deal with a huge fallout from it you know so yeah I think this is a super
important thing and this hit me really hard too at a part and then sometimes it was so painful I would stay in loss in
order not to have to feel loss again Do you know what I mean so it was it was it
was more comfortable to stay in one type of loss than to have to go and gain again and then to lose that all over
again because that initial act of loss was so painful I didn’t never want to go
through that again you know So this is where that reflection helps a lot I want to hear you about your practice Oh yes
Okay So now we’re getting to this Okay So my practice is actually really really super boring at the moment because I
have Yes I have uh you know all this cognition and I love all these different ideas and there’s so many pallets to
choose from from practices So for years I was kind of just going from one to the other and in fact there was times in my
overall pract where I just sit down and I would just intuitively get okay this is what you need to do in this moment and I think that’s a good way to operate
because it helps with intuition for a little bit but the thing is you can’t go deep in one area like that usually you
know so the samata which uh is a cultivation for samadei um what it’s in
in kind of in the pak tradition uh right now of just samata practice So it’s
based on kind of a sudi maga samata on anapana So just paying attention to the breath usually right here So when I
can’t really connect right there I go into the body usually first off First I’ll usually set an intention Um and
then I will do a little bit of meta and Wendy is a meta practitioner loving
kindness or unstoppable friendliness I think she has some other interpretations So I I’d love to hear about your meta
practice too when I’m done here And then it’s just actually really really boring just knowing the breath in this area
Some people feel it on the top of the lip which I don’t so much So it’s it’s around the nostrils and just a few notes
here Um it’s just to know the breath you know know the in-n-out breath kind of
moment by moment And it is really subtle and one of the reason there’s criticisms here for doing it this way Some people
say that attention is very brittle You know it’s not embodied So you can get
you can get deep and subtle but it’s not really lasting and it it’s really super flimsy and brittle And I can see that
but I can also see where it is it can be really distracting in the body There is so much more uh potential for so much
variation which is a good way to practice too with the whole body and with sensations in the body areas of the
body you know some people focus on chest belly but um I found that there’s it’s
it’s at a certain point it’s too gross You know it’s harder to go subtle and subtle and stabilize the awareness on a
subtle breath when it’s deep in the body or anywhere else in the body Uh it’s a
good embodiment practice It it’s stabilizing It’s actually kind of healing a and uh there’s just so many
more possibilities within the body But this area right here it allows uh to to
stabilize and go very very subtle with the breath And it’s really hard to put language to all the different subtle
variations of the breath in that area Um I will say too that it helps um when the
mind’s going and the tension wants to be pulling pull pulled away it it helps me
because it’s not So if you think about it this is my speculation I don’t know if there’s
anything to this or not In our life our attention is drawn to the external and then to the internal Okay I have a sense
impression objects this thing but then I’m going back to my emotions and my thoughts about it So I’m getting kind of
pushed out and pulled back in with experience a lot of times right a thought a feeling a sense impression And
it it’s kind of like there’s not much stability and it’s um I don’t know maybe
a lot of energy going in and out but right here it’s right on the precipice of internal and external So if I’m
focusing the attention there I’m not getting drawn out or are drawn in a lot you know So in that sense it’s
stabilizing So with this method supposedly it will get uh subtle
enough for those who are able to and then an imita is supposed to arise and
that’s a whole another thing I haven’t got there yet right and that that’s this version of of um first into access
concentration uh with this counterpart nimita and there’s there’s three different versions
of enimmita sometimes and some people report them different and some people report a lot of similarities
like a light is involved apparently but again I that’s all um not from experience at this point So I’m just
practicing it again and again And yeah it’s there’s nothing juicy to it really
I mean it can feel really good and but there’s you know it’s not a lot of fancy
strategies you know it’s just simply knowing the breath again and again here And the purpose of it too is
non-distractability you know So it will it’s supposedly build up the mind strength and the mind power to
then penetrate deeper and deeper into phenomena and reality to start just then
discerning ultimate materiality ultimate mentality and then going on to dependent origination but in such granular detail
uh and complete detail that like no stone is left unturned And you know it
said we need to know and let go but how deeply do we need to know duka and niche nata I talk to people that say no you
don’t need that much in depth but I say if if it’s if I do need to know that and
I disregard it well then that’s it and and one of the reasons I switched to this too it seems that most every other
thing is conceptual you know the practice and I I would say I understand maybe 80% on a conceptual level a lot of
these other teachings they’ve very helpful and I’m forever uh or forever is
a long time I’m indebted and grateful for that and they continue to help my life and build wisdom and at the same
time they’re their concepts and so supposedly this will get to the ultimate materiality and ultimate
mentality meaning it can’t be pushed any further It goes to the ultimate end where a lot of these other practices and
teachings they’re they’re concepts helpful concepts but they haven’t gone to the ultimate level And so that’s
that’s my practice for the last couple years I’d say for the most part You know of course I do variations and and
contemplations and different types of things here and there but that’s the core of it
Yeah it’s interesting So we’ve been listening on Dharma Seed which is a
talks I think it’ll be okay to say that you can download that app And Rob
Burbaya has got talks there of 20 I would recommend the
2019 I think it’s sort of December into January it’s 21 days or 23 days of
retreat and he talks about the anapanosati suta and the the mind the
breath meditation and he says many people misunderstand it and they focus too much on the nose or whatever it’s
very interesting so here you are describing exactly what he says maybe that’s not the right way that’s just one
comment that has been taken as kind of gospel But it’s actually been taken out of
context This is very interesting You go Oh it it totally is And there’s a whole This is why I don’t talk about this much
especially solo because there’s a Janna war I don’t know how to put it but some
people say “Oh no you need to do the sutana and some visudi maga janna.” People get really heated and passionate
about this really opinionated And so this is on the visi Some people say there’s an aware
act Some people say you can be aware of other things while in you know the first two or three Jas Other people say no If
you really get Janna based on a nita and a light then you’re not going to have any recollection I mean you’re not it’s
just Janna Only when you emerge from Janna well then you can check the Jonic factors and things like this from what I
understand And I I’m I’m not like that I’m open to until I can see and know it for myself and say otherwise then I just
have to say okay I’m open to this now I’m just choosing to practice this way because the way that Rob talks about
I’ve already practiced that and uh you know it’s it’s it’s it’s helpful
But until this uh way of practice too then I
really can’t comment on both of them with any authority whatsoever you know and I see the pros and cons to each
approach and from where I’m at now And the jury is still out for me So I just
have to defer to some of the um people I practice with lay practitioners who do do this method and to me their practice
is really super profound I mean they’ve gone past this and into discerning lives and m the
materiality of different realms beings in different realms I mean to me that is super advanced and they’re using this
method Um but I can also see how people get kind of upset
and don’t make progress And this is why I think a teacher is is really important as well And uh spiritual friends of
course too but of course I love hearing what Rob has to say what very little I did because he was kind of an iconic class and he wasn’t a afraid to say how
he saw things and you know where a lot of people are very timid about speaking out on something that goes against the
grain and things like this But yeah he was uh kind of controversial too I haven’t studied the
soulmma he talked about but even the name of that title is very provocative because you know the Buddha never taught
anything about a soul you know so that I know of um but
yeah it’s very interesting as you were speaking I was listening to the sort of the arguments the Janna wars and I was
going yeah so this one person feels a sense of lack and they argue and they get upset and you can feel a sense of
lack in the whole conversation that whole and did you do it right and then when You said I’ve done the I’ve done
Rod Burbaya’s version and that didn’t really work for me and you can hear the sense of lack So now I’m trying
something new which is this one and so that I’m trying that because I don’t quite get it and I I feel like I haven’t
understood that So you can hear the subtle forms of lack and how the self is arising in that space You go
It’s great and I I can see it interpreted like that and it’s a great reminder to point that out Thank you Wendy uh I think what’s what’s more
important is I don’t know you know admitting that I don’t see and know and
the the one way I I I actually you know according to that I think and I don’t like to talk about attainments or
anything but it’s it’s I didn’t really talk to a lot of teachers in that way to to check and see if it would have
qualified under that but I know for sure this other way I so so I it’s just like
exploring options it’s not necessarily that the other way is bad and I’m disaffected and um I’m not worthy of
that so much It’s just like okay here’s here are the options Um I don’t know
what I don’t know until I can kind of see and know that for myself then I’m just kind of like but you know it is
though Um so I could frame it as I
l this other method because I’ve got it So it’s very important to keep in mind
that it doesn’t turn into that sense of lack and it doesn’t turn into this sense of striving and comparing myself to
other people and I haven’t got there Why haven’t I got there you know but I’ve been practicing for so long you know and
I got to have this and craving for it you know these are all very important things to keep in mind because they’re
actually detrimental to that And um the and you can see in the language that I use that there’s there’s still plenty of
traces of that left and that’s not not really skillful either So I appreciate Wendy’s friendship here pointing this
out keeping it real and you know um actually they say um feedback from
someone you admire is is more valuable than a pile of gold because not everybody is willing to be open and
honest and point these things out Not a lot of people are ready to hear things either you know and some people aren’t
even equipped to know what to do once it comes once they find it out you know
they don’t have the tools and resources to deal with it So we we have to be mindful of this too uh who we’re talking
to and when and how capable and resourced they are as well And uh but
yeah when the time’s right and we can get uh feedback like this from friends pointing I I always ask people I admire
for my blind spots because it’s so super valuable and no idea Yeah I mean as you were speaking I could
feel my own sense of lack and the sense of self arise This is the right way That’s the wrong way This is
misunderstood This is a very interesting inquiry And instead of avoiding the sense of lack and going oh well I I
shouldn’t feel I shouldn’t think like that which says I I have a sense of lack about my sense of lack uh just to allow
ah well I actually do feel like I’m not good enough at this or I haven’t got it or I got it wrong or whatever I think
that is a more interesting inquiry than saying I shouldn’t be feeling that
That’s to me anyway So it Oh yeah absolutely And I think comes in here
instead of me comparing and being jealous of someone else’s attainment where they are being happy for them Wow
Isn’t it amazing that I get to practice with people who are into this and have done that and it’s it it makes me so
happy to to where you are you know or that that’s possible And so this sense of muda I think can really help balance
a lot of this out And then when it meets something that someone’s struggling then that sense of friendly can friendliness
can turn into compassion you know and the the equinimity to so where it
doesn’t get you know too far uh heightened I think on one one end or
another So yeah Well Wendy I think we’re uh we’re coming up on the end here in a couple minutes Um I want to hear about u
any anything in your your meta practice or anything else you want to say and then if you want to wrap up and should
we do a little summary of what we talked about here Sure You you can do the
summary cuz I won’t Um but met I my favorite meta practice which is not one
that anybody ever you know I don’t do the verses or the the you know recite the lines I just go well notice anything
that anyone does for you to help you feel at ease and just do that as you go along your day You don’t have to do
anything with it You don’t have you just pause and notice it like it’s not complicated So it was lovely that this
week we had a surprise little Q&A uh session and you wanted to include me in
that and you’ve been wanting to include me in this for a couple of years which is so beautiful even though you’re in
these de different places like it’s such a it’s so kind of you to to include me
in your circle you know it’s it’s amazing So just to notice all that that’s I
think really easy It’s no effort I’m great believer in no effort in meditation practice
Yeah This effortless effort is so important And it’s it’s it’s so amazing how the heart can be brightened and
uplifted Just that simple acknowledgement And I would say there wouldn’t there wouldn’t be this without you Wendy you know without joining and
talking about that that this wouldn’t happen So I’m really appreciative to to
to just hearing and just I’m struck time and time again by how insightful you
know all these things and so many nuances that that I wouldn’t I don’t think stumble upon the
way you do And so it’s a great compliment um complimentary for doing this And yeah actually I’m not really
big on summaries either I let me see if I could even remember I think you know we talked about lack and we talked about
kind of worthiness a lot I talked about the meditation practice and this this
notion of ease that is the metauta may all beings be at ease and so honing in
on that I mean it’s it when even you said that I could just feel you know anytime someone does something that
promotes ease we’re so stressed out in society so many obligations um so many
things to worry about and deal with like this trash truck blowing uh dust and
stuff and at the same time there’s a sense of ease and the support you know
that get from Wendy and others uh normally you know without support I might be reacting differently or seeing
and viewing differently as well So it really does make a big difference and especially the ease we give to our own
heart and acknowledge the ease when it’s there and when it’s not there too and and then um intending to bring more ease
Yeah Yeah Like I think the sound of the the garbage truck has gone because just
on time Exactly Right It’s clearly it’s how it works usually Yeah Yeah Yeah You know
so yeah great to chat Enjoy your retreat and we will connect next time whenever
that is Sounds like a plan Wendy All right All right Have fun All be well and
at ease Bye bye
Integrating Presence 
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