Wendy Nash and I continue exploring meditation practices both on and off the cushion in the twenty-seventh session of the ongoing live series. While the following topics resonate to varying degrees with all of us, we focus on the more traditionally masculine themes of honor and respect as well as briefly touch on self-worth as associated with the feminine. We also planned to discuss the impulses behind craving, attachment, and clinging to the compulsion to convince others that “I’m right” but didn’t really get to that. We talk about themes of inclusion, exclusion, belonging, and the landscape of identity as well as field questions about chaos, order, war, peace, introversion, extroversion, psychedelics, silence, necessary / lesser of two “evils”, etc
Wendy writes:
I’m currently looking at self worth in terms of accepting self and other, the anatomy of the mind, the desire to persuade others that you’re right and the awful sorrow that arises when you know you’ve been excluded from the group and how that connects to self worth and identity.
Wendy mentions a video at the end but will leave it to you all to look it up
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
The topic of enlightenment is brought up. Here’s a take on stages of it:
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Honor, Respect, Worthiness and Belonging | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #27
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
bold and of integrating presence and today I’m joined once again by Wendy Nash Wendy what’s going on great I’m
calling from Queensland good day I’ve never actually opened with that before no you
haven’t I’m here on Gabby Gabby country in Queensland in kulture and just give
me one second because I just need to do all the audio here on YouTube because I I like to check the comments to see
what’s coming in so it’s interesting to talk about today’s episode I’m really looking forward to it you are in Korea
at the moment yes South Korea yes usually just say in Korea too yeah first
time in Asia entirely and this is one time when Wendy and I are actually uh only an hour apart in time zone so
that’s pretty cool I think uh getting ready to go on Retreat here in a couple days for a monthlong silent offline
Retreat so I’m definitely looking forward to that I uh I’ve been wanting to have that opportunity for quite some
time and now it’s finally arrived and I’m a little bit giddy in a sense but Wendy talked about something before the
show too about how you know that’s in this is that’s only one little U portion
of formal practice right our meditation practice extends you know into our everyday lives no matter what we’re
doing or not doing you know so the formal practice is just one little section of it and uh today though we’re
going to be uh the title I have we have here is honor respect worthiness and
belonging and I’ve got this the 27th session of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash exploring meditation
practices both on and off the cushion while the following topics resonate to varing degrees with all of us we’d like
to focus on the more traditionally masculine themes of honor and respect as well as selfworth as associated with the
feminine we also plan to discuss the impulses behind craving attachment and
clinging to the compulsion to convince others that I’m right as well as themes
of inclusion exclusion belonging and the complex landscape of identity and then
you know Wendy textt me this earlier and she says I’m currently looking at self-worth in terms of accepting self
and other the anatomy of the Mind the desire to persuade others that you’re
right in the awful sorrow that arises when you know you’ve been excluded from the group and how that connects to
selfworth and identity I like this term anatomy of the Mind a very good way to put it so where
should we start Wendy well you’re in Korea and you know
you’re you’ve been moving around a lot so I guess maybe something about
your how do you manage your practice how do you remain respectful of other
cultures your own imprint on the world particularly as an American traveling
around you know it’s quite politically there’s a lot going on in that space so
yeah how are you using your practice to be respectful mindful
heartfelt as a male American traveling all over the world might I say even
white male American right yeah well that’s true so let’s uh defi you know I was looking this up just it’s good to
have a dictionary definition and honor and respect are very close to each other
so honor is high respect great esteem and it’s also adherence to what is right
to a conventional standard of conduct you know uh to regard with someone uh to
regard with great respect to fill fulfill an obligation or keep an agreement and respect means a feeling of
deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities qualities or achievements and due regards for the
feelings wishes rights or traditions of others and of course a verb admire
someone or something deep as a result of their abilities qualities or achievements so yeah so
um this is particularly uh challenging I find uh first off how much do I honor
and respect myself you know um there were times in my life where I actually just absolutely loathed and hated and
despised myself you know and it’s not helpful you know um but there’s a way to
do it to be honest about it uh and not lie to yourself either
so uh yeah there’s there’s there’s so much to say it’s it’s hard to know but in the context of traveling here in
Korea I would say you know um well one thing that actually helps me
and hinders me is not knowing language right not knowing the language but also being an International Community where
it’s really no problem because everybody speaks English so it’s um a great learning opportunity and I think a lot
of it is just observing you know um and you know as as American I maybe I
spiritual Bypass or something like this but I just tell people right away and I haven’t gotten asked that much is that
politics are an emotional con game so I kind of opt out of all that and I don’t
really assoc yes I’m from America yes I have that kind of imprint in baggage a
lot of baggage and I just not interested in the very in least bit of all the
shenanigans going on in the political Arena my fiance is more interested and
um that type of thing than me and so regardless of what puppet is in there
you know the left or the right uh everyone is even them are honor worthy of our honor and respect and I know it’s
it’s challenging sometimes and that’s a high thing to achieve and I think some
people may be more um worthy of honor and respect than others however I’ve
heard this saying that you know um every time I honor another I set a part of
myself free so it’s it’s a good practice to to look at someone and and and and
find out what can I honor here you know what can I respect uh when I have the the the mindfulness and resources to do
so because you know a lot of times it just it’s not available uh another strategy I
found to help with this is okay someone is just completely different from me and I I don’t mean cultures here I mean
someone that could be very uh similar looking similar backgrounds and they just happen to be into something
completely different than my myself and so in those cases I can say okay I see and honor your Buddha nature or your
your your Divinity or whatever we want to use but that’s just not for me you know and so I can still have a degree of
honor and respect in some regards that everybody is worthy of well-being everyone’s worthy of love but uh maybe
they’re engaging in something I just don’t have any interest in so I can still be honor honor honorable and
respectful but again I fall way short of this a a lot of times too so yes um
Wendy how do you see this playing out you know in your life and maybe with the masculine in general I think this is
more of a challenge for men to you know um I don’t know I could be wrong about that but uh I we see a lot of disrespect
in the world you know we see a um people lacking honor giving and receiving and
you know what’s it what’s the importance of this even well you know be you said what does
honor and respect mean and I always like to go to the atmology of the word so the
actual core the root of the word in its origin to to understand the word because
that’s it really makes a huge difference into what does the word actually mean
and so honor means it comes from um
Glory renowned and fame earned actually so that’s the original it comes from the
old French angl French honor uh so and it’s also to do with
distinction position Victory and Triumph so it has something which says
uh I’m above you I guess in that way so
but when I look at respect that’s a completely different atmology so re as in again and spec as
in look so it’s the act of looking back so
self-respect you actually self-respect is sort of a uh contradiction in or what
do you call it a um a tautology where you are saying the same thing twice
because redundant thank you a toogy I think a toy is what that’s it
so that’s you’re basically saying you’re looking back so the meanings feeling of
esteem excited by actions or attributes of somebody or something is from the
1850s onwards but the beginning of it is actually about the relationship how you
look the consideration so it’s more I’m it’s an
act of me moving towards the person and how do I see them and and considering
that person whereas honor is more I deserve honor and I guess that’s you
call it honor killings or that whole death before dishonor I saw somebody on
his arm at the truck you know the big track hanging out the window is death before dishonor I thought oh sounds a
bit Grim to me so that that’s what I would say so the question for me is do I
respect myself in which case or how do I see myself in order to H understand how I
respond to another person is very dharmic in that response and how do I honor people and
now I understand why I find the word honor very confusing because I’ve always felt it’s a bit
weird and a bit why would I be honor and obey you
know what what is that that sounds just some horrible hideous you know uh way of
Behaving treating people you have to honor me because what you know I’ve got
some victory I don’t know I I just think and it’s also that that definition at least in the um kind of um
anglo-american perhaps or you know latinized or whatever we want to say it it has a lot to do with war you know and
that def that atmology that you read it seems very warlike you know uh gaining
it through battle but I mean and to me that’s not very honorable to kill another you know and then see that as
honorable um but I I you know it’s a good point in the respect looking back
it also brings to mind like um reflection right and also retrospection so seeing things in
retrospection review maybe as well so I just I I kind of see a lot of the
feminine way excelling way better this not that we need to compare anything but your beautiful definition of respect
there it hits the nail on the head the head and you know it’s a really good thing to these first impressions we see
of people right and how that can inform our view and how we re um interact with
them even just from a first impression and how much I’m going to kind of um
come with maybe judgments out of habits and or even judge myself for having
those judgments um so sometimes there there’s something to that and sometimes it’s not I think sometimes it’s just
habit patterns um yeah the honor thing I I would say uh
yeah I don’t it’s like well is it earned you know do does someone need to earn
honor and then if they do how do they earn that and do I don’t know if it’s
healthy to demand someone honor another you know um then again you know how much
value is there in respect you know every I think
even dignity is uh a prerequisite before we even consider some of these things
dignity you know it’s another one but oh Wendy uh let’s see your your
audio dropped out I’m here it’s my fault got okay can hear so uh we’ve got some
people online we have Miss Reed as usual thank you very much for joining you I
hope you’re on the treadmill today as usual uh dza asks what is the topic and honor
and respect and a whole lot of other things too and Mr Potato says I’m gay so I’m not sure how that works with honor
and respect but and I wonder if Mr Potato is a troll or being sincere or
what but either way hello and welcome so yes uh yes okay the other one
topic we were going to talk about is belonging to just so the other topic we have in there so honor respect uh
selfworth and belonging yes yeah so the
other one the other thing I wanted to say is respect means to look
again not to look uh back I got that one wrong because retrospect is to look back
that’s right yes to respect means to look and re means again yes yeah so just
to do that so that’s where I got so I think it is I think you know know
just to respect there is something about having a sense of dignity I guess
in both of those and how do you live with
dignity um yeah how do you use the Dharma how do you use the or maybe use
is not quite right utilitarian um yeah what as dignity now
Deva has asked would you classify as pure
Enlightenment what would what would classify as pure Enlightenment oh my goodness uh well first off what is
Tainted Enlightenment you know so pure Enlightenment that’s an interesting way to put it because I don’t know and I was
just thinking about respect in regards to disrespect you know I think we all know uh maybe due to negativity bias
what disrespect is but um pure Enlightenment know this is a classic question so we can just set aside the
pure maybe and just talk about it you know Enlightenment it’s a really kind of a hot button topic maybe a buzzword uh a
trigger word in spirituality too I’ve got mixed feelings about the the term and uh but actually I’ll throw it to
Wendy here to to start on that if she wants um you know I think it’s just
total clear seeeing there you are and when I’m there I will let you know
whether I was right or wrong so I you know I think if when you’re in
that space then I think you can answer the question but there’s a lot of people who think they are enlightened and and
they’ve just had a an experience or whatever and they’ve now got a whole identity with it so this was actually
something that I was looking more into which is where the self-worth question came in but that’s for later if you like
yes please yes and so this is a good point uh now there’s there’s kind of two extremes on this Enlightenment thing uh
and I I was going to say the exact same thing when you said when I’m when I’m certain then I can get back to you but
right now I can only speculate from where I am right but I do see these kind of extremes on this and Wendy I don’t
w’t say she did an extreme here but there’s this notion that oh it’s it’s beyond me it’s it’s impossible it’s it’s
kind of almost a joke because so so many of us are so far behind but I will say
that um I have witnessed uh you know certain practitioners that seem to you
know even though I can’t really Define enlightenment I would say they’re a lot closer perhaps than a vast majority of
people not to compare anything but on the other hand like when um you know um
on on the other hand you know it’s uh so yeah so we got one extreme saying it’s
not possible you know but the other hand is some people go and say oh you know
they claim enlightenment right away so actually it does help to have a definition for this but I don’t know
what it is and in a way to nail it down to I think doesn’t do it a total service
anyway uh maybe one way to approach this is um kind of the relative and the
absolute you know in the Buddhist tradition one would say it’s an attainment of nabana or realizing not
not necessarily entertainment but realizing Nana or realizing the unconditioned you know the uning the um
you know the deathless so there’s all these synonyms for it and you can’t really say what it
is directly you can kind of Point towards it you know and we have these things Notions of sudden Enlightenment
and gradual cultivation uh one of the things they say is you know uh
enlightenment’s an accident and meditation helps you become accident prone um of course the word light is in
there so but then I’ve heard other people who have been dubbed rots you
know um awakened fully awakened that um that it’s beyond this notion of inner
light you know uh it’s not it’s beyond this uh people talk about nonduality so
there’s so many things to say about it but at the end of the day I I’m not there yet so I mean I can you know this
could be multiple shows in and of itself but at the end of the day Wendy and I aren’t an authority on so I would I
would um encourage people to seek out those who are closer to that than than
we are if I may speak for Wendy too yeah I I um I think that’s right you
know so Deva says easy to claim when we don’t fully understand it you know and I think I think there’s some truth to that
oh yeah and clear seeing I like that and understanding it’s almost like a realization though you know it’s not a
cognitive thing although cognition can be invol involved with and then there’s
supposedly people who have reached it but they can’t explain it they can’t teach they can’t say anything because
you know it doesn’t do it service they’re just like if you hear these stories of people that are just like everyday people but they they can’t
really teach about it you know so yeah uh and then there’s these Notions of Liberation you know is that different
than Enlightenment um uh Awakening Awakening is that different than
Liberation and Enlightenment so these are um kind of complex questions Maybe they’re splitting hairs maybe there’s
significant differences but yeah I maybe we can get her definition of it if if
you’d like if you if you know what it is yeah what was her name de DEA DEA that’s
a cool name um so whether it’s a man or woman we don’t know um yeah so and M
Reed was seemed happy with the um definition that we gave okay cool yeah I
I think um yeah so what what were our topics again today exactly so let’s get
back to the Playbook no this is this just so you we know this is a meditation Q&A so this is encouraged to just
spontaneously ask questions that’s great we’ll field them if we can the only reason I have a um topic ahead of time
is because we don’t usually get as many questions as I’d like so please yeah please keep in with the questions um so
I think the next topic we can go on to is this self-worth and this is what you wrote about to me too right selfworth
and belonging you know and I I think go ahead yeah yeah so so Deva is a man just
so you know um so what I so actually I think it ties into this question deva’s
question about what is Enlightenment so one of the things that
I’ve been looking at is selfworth in and it’s about this sense
of you know when you feel you know when you have been excluded from the group you know you absolutely know and yeah
and you it feels awful there’s this deep sorrow and you go well I’m going to go
and find somebody else to play take my bat and ball and go and play somebody else or go and play over here or I’m
going to do my own thing and it’s extremely painful and there is a desire
to you know you can’t go towards that group we’re done with that
and it’s just such an awful feeling and it really corrodes the sense of selfworth I feel it absolutely eats away
at our sense of being because we have this understanding
about if we are if we are excluded we are not we have nothing what what I have
to offer is not valued it’s not wanted and so I think it sits there but
my sense is if we can allow that sorrow to be
experienced and to feel into that that being excluded and how awful it is so
this is not a light-hearted practice this is only if you have a really strong sense of uh love in your life because if
you don’t have the lot of love and space coming from other people you’re in a really sportive environment I think you
could probably go mad so what what I my sense is is that
you feel if there’s a way that to to feel
this sorrow and then allow it to be so that it no longer is something that you
fear and you try and distance yourself from because it’s that distance in
yourself from it that sort of brings the identity the
self and other into process by allowing yourself to feel it which is extremely
painful then then there’s nothing to fear and then you’re whether you’re
included or excluded it actually doesn’t make any difference because you haven’t don’t have that fear so that’s where I
am that’s that’s what that meant I hope I answered that question that I text
yeah it’s it’s brilliant and uh this notion that we’re just not conditioned
to turn towards something face it directly and feel it and just be with it
and because a lot of times it’s it is unpleasant and painful even uh however
the only way through it or the only way yeah um past it is through it you know
you have to go into it and through it uh in my experience as well now if it’s so overwhelming we don’t have to do it all
at once right um and another thing that came up with this is this is also
conducive to authenticity because if if we don’t want to face it and be with it and go through this unpleasant feeling
of being excluded then I’m going to set it aside and then I’m going to
pretend and take on fake things that aren’t um that don’t resonate with me
that aren’t aligned with me and and come up with something inauthentic in order to fake my way into belonging but that
it’s not based on anything it’s a house of cards you know and I get it you know uh it’s just a human drive to want to
fit in and belong uh I think we have these deep fears of being excluded from groups and then we will will die because
we won’t be supported or have what we need to to get by um but that’s it’s
just not the case you know I I feel we’re always going to get exactly what we need exactly when we need it and even
if we look at the where we do belong you know where we feel uh a sense of belonging it’s we’re not always going to
feel that way we’re going to have these senses of you know something happens I might have said something someone else
might have said something I might not want to do something or might have a different opinion something might happen
and then I don’t feel as belong u a degree of belonging like a spectrum than I did at other times so we’ll see how
this kind of es and flows and sometimes I feel like more I belong sometimes I don’t you know so I think it’s it’s
almost impossible to not feel belonging but also to always
always feel belonging so I think this spectrum is going to to come up but another thing that really helps is just
being authentic and the the more I can be real and and and just be natural and
whatever that may mean or just experiment with what that’s like then we’re going to kind of attract uh people
that um that you know that we align with or that we resonate with and or will be
drawn towards those people and some of us do in bigger groups and some of us do
better in smaller groups some of us do good with just a friend or two you know and they feel belonging maybe in nature
or we feel um belonging uh with guys a lot of times it’s it’s with activities
you know things we have in common things we share and maybe the feminine bonds more on you know more uh emotional
relation relationships right uh more kind of heart-to-heart um Intimate
Relationships or I’m I’m uh I’m not exactly sure but uh guys it’s it’s
fairly you know juven sometimes almost juvenile on surface level it’s just like oh you like what I like okay let’s hang
out and this you know we’re cool um so it’s it’s uh not I mean it’s
uncomplicated but it’s also kind of um surface level a lot of times uh but it
is a important human thing and I I hear this more in meditation circles more and more but this sense of belonging you
know yeah I I think for guys some guys are very sensitive and very
articulate and I was just talking with a friend of mine on the on Sunday and she
said my boy he’s about 12 she’s Chinese got a Chinese background her English is
very good but his is already surpassed hers he’s 12 he’s highly intelligent
he’s very articulate and she goes I don’t actually understand the words he uses anymore so
I think often guys have maybe not quite um such strong language skills as girls
and it sits there yes now before I go on I just want to say two things DEA says
you need to choose you need chaos to balance peace and vice versa and M Reed
says Wendy Josh and I don’t know what that means we’ve got a thumbs up yes
there I don’t know what that’s for I I I would just guess that she’s uh referring to what we just said about belonging
yeah yes um yeah you know and this is another good point about introvert and
extroverted Styles too and I would agree with Wendy that on a whole that females are the feminine has a greater capacity
and um what’s a fancy word here uh proclivity towards language uh and see
my vocabulary in that comes out when I’m around people that have a higher capacity and um you know wield for
language but when I’m just hanging out all that just kind of goes away uh kind of was a book nerd and language nerd and
the password nerd so that’s why I have a little bit of skills but my foreign language skills you know not so much uh
so yeah on the whole though it just I think the females working vocabulary in
general all the time is just higher than guys and it it just makes sense you know it’s it’s no really good or bad it’s
just a different difference and uh yeah uh so so in extrovert introverts seem to
have need time alone to recharge so belonging with introverts I think might
be a little bit different than extroverts extroverts kind of thrive on being around people and just talking and
and being in social situations right and then there’s an Ambi overt or mes overt that’s kind of in the middle um I would
say maybe when I was more introverted I um kind of really get into nerd things like really specific things and then you
could um connect on these activities that are kind of more internal so
spending more time uh a sense of belonging maybe more in the mind and
what activity I’m doing and the things connected to that um and then when get around people that also share the same
enthusiasm while extroverts are just like to be maybe seen and heard more or
just interact meet just people in general I don’t know if I I’m getting any of this right but I’m wondering if
there’s any significant but at the end of the day it’s a feeling right this sense of belonging is a
feeling um yeah either we feel it or we don’t we feel excluded we feel like we
belong or we don’t usually it’s more noticeable when we don’t feel we belong somewhere yeah I just want to address a
couple of things so um I go on to introverts and extroverts because I have a different kind of way of looking at it
but I’m just conscious that DEA has said has talked about balancing peace and vice versa yeah I heard it was about
um what’s the definition of peace and this was by a un conflict Zone kind of
person what’s the difference what does sort of Anglo uh un and UK and
Australian American kind of ideas of peace and that is not having conflict or
not having different you know not arguing it’s quiet but in he said in the
rest of the world peace is a PL where that people everybody lives with dignity
which is a deeper perspective so I thought that was a more useful
definition because it’s not about the absence but it’s saying well this is what we have everybody lives with
dignity and until you have that you actually never have peace because I guess it fits in with that thing about
selfworth so go going into introversion and extroversion I think of I think of it differently I’ve heard your
definitions before but I I’m very extroverted person but I am not
interested in parties or socializing I have to go to networking events because I have a community group I try and avoid
parties and I’m really dislike all that sort of stuff I find it all too
much but I would say the an extrovert is the person who makes the first bid for
contact so go up to somebody hi how you going now somebody can learn to do that
as an introvert you can learn to do that and that’s Barack Obama That’s apparently what he
does but uh and so what they’ve found with the introvert and extrovert is that so
people somebody who is introverted is somebody who will wait
for the other to come towards them and thinking about that people and
I don’t wait I always go hi how you going usually I do that too yeah yeah so
I think you’re I think you’re actually very extroverted now I am yeah I used to not be like that this yeah yeah so what
theyve found is that when you when you get introverts and you say behave more
extroverted they go well it’s a bit of a push it’s not my natural position but I can do it you know it’s okay I can do it
but when you do extroverts and you say say okay now you socially withdraw you become more introverted it kind of
crushes their soul and it erodes their self-esteem and I think it’s to do with this whole idea of feeling excluded not
feeling able to contribute what I have to offer isn’t valued so I think that’s
a bit more there that’s what I think yeah that’s really even better put way
better put I think actually and uh this is why a silent Meditation Retreat is great for more extroverted people
because then that’s the rule nobody’s going to get to to go up and do any kind of initiating you know uh contact and
and and speaking so however there’s still that sense of belonging are part of the group but communication will then
be in a different style other than than verbal you know won’t stop the body language it won’t stop the en energetic
interactions that people have around each other uh and actually in my experience a lot of times those become
more Amplified because still wanting to communicate but I can’t do it through language so these other more subtle
Realms that I don’t normally pay attention to because language can be so powerful and overriding these things
that now I’ll be able to tune in more to body language and energy and emotions perhaps um so now going back to what you
said about uh I I think both those definitions of Peace are good you know
and uh so what is the opposite of peace and some might say war and it’s interesting he’s um the the comment is
linking it to chaos so see I don’t know about that because chaos I think is also
uh the opposite of that would be kind of order you know so uh so are we linking
you know should we be linking uh peace and order together uh sometimes yes I’d
say sometimes maybe not and chaos and war or violence and I think sometimes
they do link together but not all the time you know we can have internal chaos and still be completely peaceful you
know um there can be war and there can be and violence and it can be very orderly you know we look at some things
in the past and you know it’s frightening so I think it’s it’s helpful to kind of sus these things out and see
when they might be linked together you know when they might be opposites when they might be U polarity and uh in
opposition to each other and when they they just don’t connect at all you know um of course some people start chaos
some people start violence some people work towards peace and some people you
know work towards order um and Harmony so yeah I just wanted to point that out
yeah yeah but I think I’m not sure I entirely agree with your definition that the oppos I because
I look at dea’s comment um as actually very insightful because I go when you
have peace it’s it’s a it’s actually a dynamic space and kind of has a little
bit of elasticity and it’s not chaotic but it is it does it feels within a
bound of movement whereas chaos is where it’s sort of you’re trying to maybe
crunch things down to be so ordered that there’s this external
things um that are unable to be controlled and that’s what creates the chaos so Vasa has said that’s what I
meant introspective introspectively it kind of falls apart
collectively compared to individually now let me read that again because I just need to understand that he’s clever
than me all right uh introspectively it kind of falls apart collectively compared to
individually perhaps you can answer that one um I would just ask to elaborate on
that too um because now we’re now we’re throwing all these complicated ideas
into um introspection extrospection and collectivity and individuality so yeah
these are multiple layers on layers and I’m I’m trying to um yeah to to to parse
some things out here so yeah these are all different layers and levels we can look at um things like this
on so yes uh and Wendy’s idea though of um me just remove the the uh the comment
here of um this notion of chaos I think this is something interesting to explore
because I I I I never really looked at it like that when you’re you’re trying to have order and it actually creates
chaos you know so in a way these are um I don’t know if we’d say they’re
polarity or opposition but um I think we all know what chaos is in our lives
right now how it comes about I’m not so um certain but when it’s
there it’s it’s in contrast to um I
guess order or lack of chaos right and Chaos can at least in my experience it
seems like it can be more conducive towards conflict and other than peace
you know I don’t think it always has to be but um I know it seems like some people thrive on chaos and some people
become almost debilitated by chaos you know um sometimes chaos can stir things up uh
and then allow others to come in and then impose more order or like Wendy saying you know U maybe there’s a little
bit too much order and then the opposition to that or the polarity to that is is just kind of expected that it
will you know have the other effect um so yeah I was just thinking about uh
there’s a guy um he’d be older than me probably in his 70s I think and been
around forever and a day and he he’s quite well known in Australia his name is Dick Smith and he he had some
electronic stores when we were younger uh that got sold out but he he
would sit down and he would have the television on the radio on he would have a book open and he would be incredibly
productive and I would just that to me would be chaos I would need to make all
of that silent and make it go away but for him that was peace so it’s an interesting kind of
idea it really is and I I I would really like to talk to him and see what that it’s about because now there’s some I’m
the same way as Wendy usually there’s some exceptions though there’s a thing where I can just say okay well I can
only focus on one thing at a time however the background the they call like the unconscious mind supposedly
some say We’ll remember everything we might not always have access to it so if we’re trying to take in a lot of stuff
in the background unconsciously maybe but you know that in a way it’s kind of pointless another one that people do is
they they turn on a sporting event right we used to do this when I was a kid we turn on the baseball game on the TV but
we turn the volume down and we’d listen to the announcer on the radio because the announcer on the radio has to work
way harder because he’s talking to people without that available image where you know the people on TV they’re
not vocally um as Adept as those doing it on the radio so yeah but but any yeah
so M Reed has said so is chaos a problem create problem to find solution gosh
that sounds like my local counselor to be honest he’s like always creating dramas in order to be the one to come in
and rescue the situation I’m sure we know other people around who are like that so is so is chaos a problem create
the problem to find a solution but the way is put the way it’s put here chaos
to balance is interesting but when you know the context of it then you can go
from there so did you get that by the way yeah did you understand yep well um so
is so is chaos a problem well that you know that depends you know does it always have to be or uh you know Can Can
it can it be okay because we’re going to face chaos no matter what so do we do with it right do we flip out and add
more chaos or do we do we have um a solution or what are our strategies for
dealing with it create so this create a problem to find a solution so this is a
classic thing uh it’s called Problem reaction solution so some people say that there’s a problem in the world
right but um they claim that actually that that’s not an organic problem it’s
not a natural problem that’s actually been uh orchestrated and engine ered by
those um who want to cause that problem and what they need is a reaction from
the public oh my gosh can you believe so and so I can’t believe this something should be done about it uh we have to do
something about this and then that and the people that created the problem said oh yeah uh a matter of fact we have the
solution waiting in the wings all we needed was the reaction to it you know so they’ll artificially create a problem
wait for the reaction and then they have a a prescribed solution already waiting
that they had planned while they’re creating the problem itself so this is called Problem reaction solution I don’t
know if it’s the hegelian dialectic or not but that might be something different so I don’t know if that’s what
she’s referring to but um but okay then the next thing is but the way it’s put
here chaos to balance is interesting but when you know the context of it then you
can go from there so that’s right so there’s many flavors of Chaos right so
what’s surrounding the chaos you know where does it come from what kind of
effect is it having you know um what all is involved in the chaos and then um how
are people viewing it and responding to it and what are people doing about it you know and what kind of um effective
re um you know how effective are they in in their View and response to the said
chaos you know uh yeah so these are some things around this so devasa says
sometimes it’s a necessary evil I I’m not I’m trying to think back to what that was that was uh I think about the
chaos I’m assuming and then M Reed has said no chaos is not a
problem it’s a copout for drama to thrive not a fan at all while I’m with
you on that one and I would I think a necessary this
phrase I don’t know where it came from I’d like to look up the the origins of this because isn’t evil ever necessary
first you have to Define what evil is but I think this is a retrospective um excuse for um things
that aren’t skillful in the world right so and a lack of creativity so you know
how much are we just jumping to the conclusion that oh it’s a necessary evil and how many wars have been just ified
saying oh it’s a necessary evil you know uh yes war is bad but it’s um we need it
in order to to fight greater evil so I don’t I don’t I I’m not really on board with that so I would have to say we have
to go by more of a a case-by casee basis in a specific thing because a lot of time it just has to do with a lack of
understanding you know a lack of create creativity for for dealing with things
and and not that it’s wrong I mean we’re all doing the best we can if we could do better we would but I don’t think there’s a very rarely do I think there’s
ever a necessary evil you know um so it says here a necessary so I’m on
Wikipedia at this point a necessary evil is an evil that someone believes must be
done or accepted because it is necessary to achieve a better outcome especially because plausible alternative courses of
action or in action are expected to be worse it is the lesser of two evils
basically yeah yeah um which maintains that given two two bad choices the one that is the least bad is the better
choice and I I heard this about how the Chinese view American politics and I actually think it has a lot of wisdom in
it it’s not the lesser of two evils it’s they’re both poisons so so you know so
you know pick your poison it’s it’s both are going to poison you poison you so why not just sit down the poisons and
walk away from them you know so I think that’s it sure yeah so the history of it
is the the Oxford dictionary of word origins asserts that the idea of a necessary evil goes back to Greek
describing the first necessary evil as marriage there you go and further stating that as a good dose of misog I
don’t know if I’m going to judge that one describing the first necessary evil as marriage and further stating that the
first example in English from 1547 refers to a woman Thomas Fuller in his
1642 work the holy State and the the profane state made another of the earliest recorded uses of the phrase
when he described the Court Jester the Court Jester as something that some
count as a necessary evil in court so that there you go it’s interesting
these English you know the word English on a pool ball means to spin it right to put a spin on something okay yeah well
so miss Reed has said diversities diversity allows for growth each being
authentic evil does not need to be here to grow
you know people talk about the Devil’s Advocate that phrase and I go well does the devil need any advocacy I’m thinking
no that’s another interesting term isn’t it yes it’s uh you know these these um
these kind of dark Forces in the world there’s these claims that oh you know
we’re just taking this role for your own good because people are too asleep you
know they they can’t uh they’ll never wake up without us you know they would just be in la la land but if I we do
something extreme then then they’re going to take notice and and have motivation in order to change and I
don’t buy that BS you know that’s that’s uh you know there might be a little something to it but like Mis points out
here misy points out evil does not need to be here for to for us to to grow you
know yes I get it we have as I think of as collective we have a really long ways to go but that that excuse I don’t think
is is good enough um for justifying and this is another huge thing in spirituality the I tend to not use the
words good and evil so much I mean yes there there are there is good and evil I think on a relative scale you know what
leads towards harm what leads to away from harm you know I think that would be a guiding point but what’s more resonant
I think with more people because some people might interpret one thing as uh good as evil and vice versa yada yada
but this notion of skill you know if we look at a skilled Craftsman or Artisan everybody can see
oh that’s a skill that person has skill look look at what they’ve done you know I can see them working that’s very
skillful um so we can apply that to our behavior and society and just about everything in our lives is it skillful
or is it unskillful and then wi Is it wise is it unwise you know is it foolish
or is it not foolish and then we can get into things like wholesomeness you know
what makes the heart this this notion of wholeness and wholesomeness or un
wholesomeness I think these are these are things to keep in mind when we it’s because evil good and evil they’re very
loaded terms a lot of times you know I I don’t want to necessarily shy away from them but I also want to bring into this
notion of skillfulness as well and yeah it’s a thing so I just
want to put in a couple more comments um so back then did they arrange them asks
Miss Reed I think that’s in terms of um Greek marriages and I think probably the
answer is yes um then because it was all just marriages were about a formal you
know Financial Arrangement so yeah when
you tied the knot that’s how it was in those days so uh then deesa says do you
think psilocybon therapy has Merit I think we’ve discussed this yes I was
going to say that and me for me the jury’s still out my
concern is always that I think that what can happen with with Sil cybin is that
you end up what I’ve seen with people and it’s
just anecdotally is that um people I the one
I’m thinking of and we shouldn’t really say it from one case study but this is the only one I know from my
friends a friend so I know the husband and the wife her her wife his wife says
um a friend of hers an acquaintance she had some a lot of trauma background she
had she has an autistic son an adult autistic son she has had a job she all
this she got into psilocybin therapy she said it was amazing it worked so well it
was fantastic I loved it and now she’s lost all her friends because all she can
talk about is silicide and therapy her adult Kool drink the Kool-Aid yeah but I
think it disturbs the mind so her adult son who is autistic no longer has contact with her she’s lost her job so
it’s do I think it has Merit I don’t know yet I know that in Australia it’s
allowed under strict supervision but I haven’t seen yet I haven’t met
anybody where I’ve that that’s been a change and my sense is I wonder if it
interferes with the egoic structure so that the egoic structure in sort of
takes over and then becomes this invaded thing I don’t know but I just I I feel
that we still need a lot more research on it yeah and and I can’t speak for everyone else of course I can give my
personal View and opinions on this but I don’t know necessarily mean it should apply to everyone um I think where it
might have Merit they talk about is towards the end of life so it could simulate you know if someone’s
absolutely terrified of death and they’re getting ready to die you know I don’t know but I that’s still not an
advoc advocation there and I’m not advocating it P necessarily um and uh
you know there’s so many different psychedelics and Psychiatry now wants to get in on psychedelics right they want
to uh be able to prescribe these in there in the States they’re prescribing ketamine you know and uh in Psychiatry
um I don’t know about psilocybin I mean I think they’re even doing like DMT uh I
know they uh what was the guy who did The Spirit Molecule um so there’s a movie about that and so yeah it’s it’s
all the kind of H Hot Topic in Rage now and um I just the the easy way to go
around this is do meditation you know there is uh you can reach um there’s
certain types of meditation I don’t know if I recommend these either but you can reach all kinds of different states you
know uh and in fact on the noble Eightfold Path you you’re supposed to um
eradicate states that are not helpful prevent them from reising and then
you’re supposed to maintain helpful States and then generate new states that are helpful towards the path now I don’t
know if any of these types of states are uh involved in those but I know intoxic
so I think this is what it points to are you intoxicated by this or not you know
in intoxication is not helpful because it will lead us to do things we normally wouldn’t do that will not be in our
long-term even short-term sometimes best interest nor of those around us so we have to look is it intoxicating or not
does this does this cause intoxication and just as a general rule usually intoxication is not helpful um I found
in my experience so that that’s one thing we want to look at if you are going to do them and not disregard
everything else and just hellbent deadset on doing this please please please do lots and lots of research and
you you vet PR um trained practitioners and um facilitators and go and talk to
them and make sure you’re comfortable do what uh you know see what the preparation is and then the integration
afterwards because a lot of times uh people take these and they don’t know how to integrate the experiences into
their daily life so it’s abs absolutely vital and like I say I can’t I I really just can’t recommend these things um
just right off yeah we’ve got we’ve got some more comment from that so devasa says I found it helpful it makes sense
some people may get consumed by The Experience though and so I guess I want
to ask deasa a little bit more info we’ve got five minutes to wrap up probably four by the time we get through this so it’ll be a bit more um but if
you can just say have has your do did you keep your friends do you did you
keep your job did you find that all the sort of capacity to live more in the
world has benefited or have you found that things have dropped off people have dropped off you’ve uh perhaps a little
bit more ranty and ravy so I’d really like to know that from deasa we’re off topic completely here yeah it’s okay
then exactly how is it helpful deasa yes yeah that would that’s a great one so
miss Reed says unless you know unless you know the entire role of it completely then yes so know what you’re
getting into before you do it and I did hear somebody who um who I think some
research which is again how do you integrate what you’ve had so she had had this amazing experience it had worked
really well for her and then what happened is that I think she went to see
her psychologist and her psychologist said something fairly neutral
and it just what resonated it landed really wrong and it was completely like
it messed her up for two years so that was so the the Psychedelic experience
was fine but the re the integration afterwards was a problem so I thought that was a very interesting thing so
it’s it’s not that I’m against it I want to know more because I want to find out
whether it’s hype I want to find out where who’s who it’s good for who it’s
not good for whatever um before I would recommend any of that and as you say
people who are at end of life they’re terminally ill it I have I’ve read that they’re more accepting of doing in that
in that circumstance because basically they’re going to die imminently anyway
so I think the reintegration of it doesn’t seem to be such a big big big
issue I guess that that’s that exactly and it’s just good advice I think this
comes from the Buddha too is when you’re doing it before you do an action reflect you know is this going to is this going
to be blameless you know is it going to help or hurt me and others and then
reflect on that while you’re doing it and then afterwards too so it’s just general good advice for doing these
things yeah the integration period for this is absolutely key I would think
too so Deva we’ve we’ve only got a couple of minutes so devasa said I found
life to be easier actually thank you deasa for responding the I have have been supportive in fact I’ve actually
found a passion for simatic patterns whatever that is and complex physics after I started experimenting with it so
the question is so I I get that you’ve got these new interests but have you
kind of dropped out I guess is and are you sort of removing yourself further
and further away from mainstream life and that’s always my question so I
perhaps because I think we need to be more connected with PE with life and people so that’s the only thing and uh
and uh the Vasa says and no I’m not o overly vocal about it and I for just
real quick simatics is this um thing of you play a sound and you run it through
substances and it will make certain patterns based on the frequency of the sound so it’s a kind of an artistic
scientific thing and I would just add to Wendy saying the way I view it is we don’t NE necessarily need I mean I don’t
feel I need necessarily be more mainstream however I don’t need to completely withdraw all the time I still
need to be able to interact with the world and move in mainstream society when I need to however it doesn’t have a
huge appeal for me but I don’t want to be completely seen as a shunned Outcast you know raving lunatic when I go into
town to buy bread or something I still have to be able to to play that game when I need to but then be around those
who are going to be more benefit for me and and for those of others and Wendy we didn’t even get to self worth here as
much I think we mentioned a little bit but uh yeah DEA says no I have not I
still find it important to be grounded and I think that’s what I’m I’m sort of curious to know is is whether people
stay grounded because I think you can kind of I know I sort of think I mean I have never taken anything so I’ve been
you know I’m taking a very cautious approach because I just don’t want to go loopy you know I have a tendency for a
lot of excitability in my life and so I don’t want to go have this experience and it tipped me over the edge so maybe
it’s better for people who are perhaps more cautious and withdrawn a bit like
uh somebody like deasa who tends to be perhaps more calm in their disposition
exactly but M Reed says you know yes very interesting but know the entirety of the substance and I think there’s
really you know be yeah it’s a really good point because with meditation you
can just stop it like that you can get up and it quits if you’re on some kind of psychedelic you can’t do that if you
it starts going wrong you can’t just say okay I’m done with this no too bad you’re gonna it could be hours and hours
and those hours and hours could seem like you know months and months and months and so yeah you really don’t know
there’s really not very many ways to prepare for it so yeah it like when he says it depends on your disposition like
Miss Reed Miss Reed says you know do we know the outcome of what it’s going to be same way with our actions or anything
in life it’s just like um the precepts in Buddhism yes I could break those when I need to but I better be sure that I
know the consequences of my actions and since I don’t I can’t see the consequences of my actions it’s easier
and more skillful just to follow you know these these precepts or guidelines um or if you have rules um laws and
principles in your life that you live by it’s easier just to adhere to those that work unless you know for sure if you go
against one of those what the outcome’s going to be and you have to be fairly enlightened maybe to tie back towards
the beginning of this of what those um consequences might be yeah so miss we’re
going to wrap it up here I think but M Miss Reed says meditation is a much
healthier approach and I definitely feel like that because it’s so you can go more slowly like pushing the brain
Beyond a space and then deaser has invited Miss Reed to do to ask what
about both at the same time in a sensory deprivation tank right
with binaural beats I you know I I think there is I
have seen there is a video on that somebody in Switzerland did that so deasa I encourage you to W check out
that video I don’t know how you’re going to find it but there was some research done in a Meditation Retreat in
Switzerland and they they did a proper scientific study so I encourage you to
look at that you can if Wendy if you want to send me that I can put it in the show notes otherwise yeah they can just
be found on folks own well we’re a little over time here this has been great I appreciate all the audience
participation and yeah and I’ll be back probably what sometime in December or
January at the latest I think that’s their plan yeah a while away and thank you Miss Reed you’re in the game of the
drug and that can be an entanglement and can do damage and that’s always my question so oh yeah there we are all
right we’re going to close it out because we are over time thanks so much guys and love the participation and uh
be well and we’ll catch up again in December or January whenever it is that’s right until then you all be well
bye now
Integrating Presence 
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