This is the thirty-seventh installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion. I recently witnessed a reoccurrence of various perplexing sentiments from the (USA) West Coast Dharma scene (which even parallel general society). After running this by Wendy she rightly pointed out tinges of self-righteousness in my approach. So how do we exercise judiciousness and discernment while observing life at large and in meditation without falling into traps of judgmentalism and unhelpful righteousness? Subsequently, how do we skillfully convey this in our speech and actions? What else can catch us off balance in meditation and the wider world? How do we regain balance, and how does this all interrelate? We fill in the details and get into all this and more
And here’s how ai summarized it (with minor edits from me):
Wendy joins with a freshly twisted ankle (courtesy of a sneaky pebble and a poorly designed footpath she was inspecting on her e-bike), turning the mishap into a perfect real-time example of how quickly we can lose physical, emotional, and mental equilibrium. What starts as a light-hearted injury update spirals into a rich, compassionate conversation touching on:
– Noticing and owning hurt instead of armoring it with judgment or self-righteousness
– The subtle cynicism in some Western Dharma scenes that jokingly dismisses awakening as impossible (and how that often masks personal pain or fear of failure)
– Dealing with politicians who block you on social media, toxic news, and other “poisonous food” for the mind
– Wendy posits dukkha as discomfort and sukha as ease/comfort rather than the heavier suffering/happiness framing
– The power of deliberately noticing tiny gestures people make that put you at ease—and how that single practice replenishes energy and naturally spreads kindness
– Taking responsibility without self-blame, starting where you are, and using what you have
– Sending genuine love and support to viewers facing cancer and other hardships
Warm, honest, funny, and deeply human—two long-time practitioners openly sharing their own wobbles while gently reminding everyone that balance is recoverable, one mindful, kind step at a time. Lots of metta, practical tips, and zero pretension.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Audio: Is There An Objective Purpose In Life? | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #35
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: (Losing) Balance in Dharma | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #37
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Hey, welcome. This is Josh integrating presence and today rejoined with Wendy Nash. Wendy, what’s up?
Well, I’m here on Gabby Gabby country in Queensland in Kabulra and this morning very literally closer to the ground. So,
today I’m sitting slightly to the side because my foot is resting on my bed on a cold uh pack uh compressed in the rice
method. There you go. Um cuz one small pebble and I just fell over. that’s not
at my strength. But um I’m doing this thing where I walk around my neighborhood every day or you know a few
times a week and just report the foot paths that aren’t working or and I’ll write posts on on foot path quality and
the impact and what I’m learning. It’s very interesting. Foot paths are much more interesting than you can imagine.
You you sort of take them for granted like every piece of infrastructure. You just take it for granted. But I have
learned so much. I’ve been doing it for maybe a month and a half and today’s one
was uh actually about a path and I had I tried to I had my bike because it and
it’s a big cargo ebike so it’s about 40 kilos and I don’t know what that is in
American numbers. You’ll have to figure that out but yeah I don’t know I don’t know how
to work out all those Fahrenheit things. Um, so it’s technically I know it’s a dupa so
um the last country on earth Fahrenheit. It’s like no I think you’re up there with I don’t know Saudi Arabia or
somewhere. Um so um
uh so there’s a storm water drain which means there’s no accessibility ramp. So already that was a problem. And then I
walk along. And in Australia, you know, when you when you’re on a path and they put in a sort of two uh metal bars a
little bit apart, so you have to do a zigzag around that. That’s to stop people like uh bikes and stuff like
that. But it also stops people who have legitimate um accessibility needs like pram and um wheelchairs and and all
that. And so and and where I went and then further on uh there was it was
actually quite muddy on the it was quite muddy buildup because we’ve had a little bit of rain lately and so this the leaves were gathered and one part of the
the footpath was actually quite pulled in all that mud and uh not too bad but I
couldn’t I just didn’t see a pebble and when I was trying to walk back um
because the path actually goes out onto this beautiful park and then onto the rail trail, which would just be amazing
for people on mobility scooters, just make a sort of a real life quality change for them. And I was walking back
and I just I was trying to figure out how to go through these banana benders we call them. And um and my my my ankle
just rolled often rolls now cuz it’s just does it all the time, you know. So
um I went down, the bike went down. I thought I was going to break my nose cuz
I whacked my nose and yeah, I was going, “Oh, wow. This is actually thing.” Oh,
we have someone Deborah Long C1M. So lovely to see you. Hi. So I fell over
and then that was the end of my little walking journey for today. For the week.
Luckily, it’s Thursday. I’ll be back doing it next week. Sorry. Sorry to my infrastructure guys.
Same run. Yeah, you’re a trooper, Wendy. Um, it was your the the eye last time and maybe you give
a quick update on that. And those banana benders, um, those aren’t as much the states. Uh, they’re in England and in
Denmark quite a bit. Uh, but, you know, I guess it’s to stop people from going through there really fast on like
scooters and bikes and stuff like that. So, you know, so people don’t run people over or something like that. But like
you said, they’re they’re a pain to get through. And if people have a, you know, if they have like a scooter or whatever,
they have to slow down or they can’t get through it or have to do something else. So yeah, I I don’t know. I don’t know
what to say. I don’t know the solution. Maybe you do. Well, you you actually don’t need to have banana benders. You know, if people
ride quickly, people ride quickly. A big part of the problem is that so much of our land space is just taken up by the
car. So if you create streets that are safer for everybody to use, people will
use them. And at the moment we’re all restricted because of this private uh
this sort of privatization of public land which is the car uh which is the road. Uh so and people have this idea
that they’re not allowed that only cars and motorized vehicles are allowed on roads which now that you’ve lived in
Denmark you would go yeah that’s not true but you in America it is. Yeah pretty much in
America it’s I mean like people treat bikers like crap in America. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Not in Denmark. Denmark they have like oh like total respect and you know just as much right away if not more than
everything else. So yeah. So uh yeah. So anyway, so we’ve
got Deborah Long and she’s asking what’s my name? You look better, whatever that means. Beautiful.
Josh, your makeup is stunning today. Is that? Yes. Yes. Yes.
I don’t I I actually don’t have any on so Oh, there you go. Well, that makes all of us. So, to follow up on my skin
cancer last time, there you are, Joyce. You know, it’s the body. It’s just the body. The body just it, you know, I’m
slowly getting to this idea that the body isn’t against me. The body does
what the body does. And and so, of course, it’s going to do what it does.
It’s no different to any other part of us. So, anyway, subject to the laws of nature. That’s right.
Exactly. So that’s that’s just uh no, you know, birth, old age, sickness, and death. So now I know that we were going
to talk about the title, but that’s right.
We’ve I’ve I’ve entitled this titled this. I don’t know which is the proper English there. Losing in parentheses
um balance in Dhamma. So that’s kind of optional. So we can talk about the positive balance in Dhamma, too. and I
have in this 37th installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on
and off the cushion. Um, so I recently witnessed a reoccurrence of various
perplexing sentiments from the USA West Coast domicine which even parallel
general society. After running this by Wendy, she rightly pointed out tinges of self-righteousness in approach.
Sorry. No, no, it’s very helpful. Yeah, it’s a tough one to get around for me. So,
we’ll work on that. So, so how do we exercise judiciousness and discernment
while observing uh life at large and in meditation without falling into traps of
judgmentalism and unhelpful righteousness? Subsequently, how do we skillfully convey this in our speech and
actions? What else can catch us off balance in meditation and the wider
world? How do we regain balance and how does all this interrelate? Please join
us as we fill in the details and get into all this and more. And wow, I’m just now realizing Wendy kind of lost
balance there. Uh I just needed to I just needed to shuffle myself around
because I felt a little bit uncomfortable. But I you know nothing compared to so Deborah Long has just written oh no you got skin cancer. So
just to let you know that I didn’t really I just got it in the nick of time. So in I’m in Queensland, skin
cancer capital of the world, and the minute you see anything at all, it’s straight down to the skin doctor quick
as a flash. So you just got to get there. So uh luckily they took it out um
and clinically clear. So um but I feel that your mom has cancer and that’s no
good. So I’m so sorry for you. So my dad died of cancer. Um, but that’s because
he didn’t go to the doctor. He’s a guy, military man. So, um, I hope that your
mom recovers well. And that’s a long time ago, my dad. So, I hope your your mom
Yeah, I I hope she’s just getting enough treatment that works for her. So, um,
sending you lots of love, Deborah. Echo this sentiment and also want to say
that we do what we can to prevent, too, right? We look at our our diets and
Wendy takes precaution in the sun as well, I guess. And you know, there’s just so many causes and conditions
involved in this. We do what we can and then we still do what we can after that, right? And there’s certain things we can
do, certain things we can’t, I guess. Yeah. You know, always have love around it. Yeah. You know, a friend of mine, he
just uh went to hospital. He felt something about his leg. Anyway, it turned out he had pancreatic cancer.
Normally you don’t find out about camp pancreatic cancer until it’s until you’re at stage four. So
um yeah and I see thyroid cancer. I’m not so sure. I don’t know anything about
thyroid cancer. So and it is very sad. It’s very sad. And um yeah lots of love
and lots of um yeah patience. It just these things
are and um it just takes it just takes a long time so to heal. There’s no there’s
no you can’t there’s no shortcuts to pain and um you just have to
bear with what you can bear with and when it gets too much throw a temper tantrum and you know go out and dance
and life and and then get grumpy. So that is just
you know we coping mechanisms are helpful too you know we need these when we can’t do what um like do things that
I mean even do practitioners as part of that is having coping mechanisms to rely on when we need to absolutely
and healthy ones the more healthy we have coping the because there’s some really not so good coping mechanisms and
there’s some good ones you know so yeah well yeah drugs and alcohol generally not not a
great idea but you know I understand, you know, like sometimes it’s too raw. It’s too raw and um
and it’s too painful and some days you just don’t want to be good. You know, you’re sick of it and you hate everything and you just hate everything
and that’s it’s a mooncape. It’s a moonscape for a really long time. So, I’m I really I I
feel you. I feel you where you are, Deborah. So, um Yeah. So, there you are.
We’re here for you. We’re here for you remotely. Yes. Sorry.
Well, I mean that’s Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that’s right. Lots of love and the
compassion. So, they can never have enough compassion. And it’s okay not to be okay all the time, too, right? That’s
a classic one I like. Um Well, should we get into this as well? I mean, it kind of fits into this. I I I
just wanted to start from where I I saw this and hopefully I I don’t know if anybody
knows if there’s any really dharma practitioners here if they’re familiar with like California Dharma. You know,
California’s got some cliches going on. I think part of it is a really beautiful state. The weather is really nice. The
people are loving for the most part. There’s also a lot of problems out there. But anyway, I don’t want to get
into political things, but I joined this group and I saw this pre- pandemic and then it kind of went away around that.
At least I didn’t witness it. I don’t know. But then I saw it research. It’s this very strange blend. So, let me see if I can explain this in the the
kind of people cracking jokes um about becoming enlightened. Okay? Like
basically, you know, making fun of it and saying that it’s not possible. I mean, we we don’t what is enlightenment
anyway? So enlightenment, liberation, uh, awakening, right? These are similar
but maybe different. And and I understand I mean it’s a high bar, right? I mean this is a a hugely high
bar and it’s it’s it’s a rare thing in the world um to get to such a level of attainment. So it it’s understandable
and certain generations including mine like to give each other crap um at least
guys do in my um especially older generations. They cruel to be kind of
thing, right? you know, and kind of poke it kind of releases the pressure, right? Because you have, you know, you’re
you’re told these teachings and they’ll they’ll lead to enlightenment and then but it’s it’s little me that says this
this is not possible, right? And so it’s kind of like everyone is bonding about
how I don’t know little me can’t do this and we’re all in this together and you
know then we can kind of poke fun at it um in order to take like an inferiority
and turn it around into kind of like a superiority like since we’re adding our
I don’t know it’s a lot of interpretation here but it’s kind of like okay since we’re all recognize this
and can kind of poke fun at it then we’re kind of we feel better about ourselves when we lift lift each other
up in a weird way. I don’t know if I’m really describing this, but do do you understand what it what it means? So,
the Buddha said that this is possible in this very life. And so, you know, I just don’t see the helpfulness in the long
term of poking fun at that and saying that I’m that it’s not possible for me
and that it’s kind of a joke and you know, that’s what it’s implying. Now, if you said this explicitly and no, they
wouldn’t say that, right? that just kind of like um taking some of the pressure off of like maybe expectations they feel
or something like that. And I don’t know what I would have to do is sit down and do like a psychological interview with
this type of response, right? To really know more. This is all my assumptions and my my guessing. So Wendy, um so how
if if there’s anything to that’s of value, tell me how I’m getting it totally wrong, please. Or how I’m
getting it wrong. But then, you know, how do you how do you convey this without me looking like the same thing
like being judgmental, you know, and um yeah, righteous. And that’s that’s not
how I want to come off. I just how do we point something out, you know, that could be helpful in the long run, but
then it’s it’s then it’s me up here saying you shouldn’t be doing that down there even though, you know, so it’s
this weird dynamic and I don’t know how to call this out or confront people because then I’m that guy. And uh I I’ll
say another where I got it wrong after this too. Well, let me just say it real quick. So during the lockdowns I was
like we were on everybody was on Zoom all the time and I kept like preaching like you were looking at a computer
we’re talking to a computer we’re not really talk you know because I could like people I just could sense they’re
just in a trance and they were you know but I that was my projection too but
here I find myself doing the same thing when I don’t have full mindfulness in your very cool technique of expanding
visual um perception that helps a lot then I’m Okay, now I’m looking at a
computer, a screen, and not right in front of Wendy. The the mind can really
trick in virtual reality. And I just wonder if we get more and more in virtuality, virtual reality, how that
might even, you know, um escalate, let’s just say that. And so we get sucked in.
I mean, our our regular lives are a kind of a virtual reality anyway because we’re only seeing, you know, a bit of
the visual spectrum. There’s so much more going on that we don’t see, but we just assume. an even perception itself.
Anyway, yada yada yada. Wendy, take over here. So, I’m going to go a slightly different
way. Uh, so last week I discovered that my local counselor, so I have a so for
um Deborah and our listeners who might not be familiar, I have a community group to advocate for more transport
choice. Um, you know, everybody knows a couple of people who can’t drive. kids,
senior, disability, low income, cars broken down, broken foot, whatever. Um,
and yet we don’t provide transport for them, which shows that we have an incomplete transport system. So, I’m
looking in I work I’m in the outer suburbs and so I’m looking to close that transport gap in the outer suburbs and
counselors um have an obligation in Australia to as part of their code of
conduct to um share on social media the relevant appropriate one uh what’s going
on. This is what’s going on and then you know they get all the sort of status and glory that goes with that. But my local
counselor, he has the transport portfolio. I know quite a lot by now after three and a half years of a
transport group about the transport portfolio in the outer suburbs in in Kabulra in my town and he’s blocked me.
And so I found out on Friday on over the weekend that he’s actually not allowed to do that according to the code of
conduct. So I wrote to this the CEO of the local council and I said look could you just give me
the lowdown on on code of conduct. I did very politely and I also put a post on
my Facebook group uh oh I put a a post on my social media group and just said
oh look this is what’s happened if anybody knows that counselor could you uh reach out to them and
um the reply came back oh right you know it’s against the the regulations somebody said I’ll reach out to them and
so the reply back came to the counselor to to my friend who said, um, she’s
she’s, you know, off on her own tangent with her own community group and,
uh, and I will I will unblock her. So,
he hasn’t unblocked me yet. So, there you go. And actually, he’s not allowed
to do that. You It gets pretty nasty on social media, and I feel really sad for
politicians because there’s a lot of grief there. So, I understand the yearning to do that, but actually he’s
in my instance, he’s completely out of order. He just feels uncomfortable because I go, “Well, actually, you
haven’t provided for safe pedestrian access here. You know, I think what you’re doing is great, but you haven’t
provided for safe temporary access here.” Things like this.
And so, it’s been an interesting journey about that to sort of think about my own
and I I felt myself going, “Ah, you’re an idiot.” that, you know, you’re a toss pot, you’re a this,
that, and oh, you’re so pathetic. And then actually, I realized that I was
hurt by his unkindness. Fundamentally, that’s what it was. I
actually was hurt and then owning that hurt.
So to go back to your example of the California um
community, we are all in a state of confusion, not
recognizing that we are hurt. So I imagine in California and in the US,
people are terribly ambitious. It’s quite competitive. Um you don’t have
good social security so that it falls over like you don’t even have universal healthcare. like it’s a you know wow
what a basket case. So um therefore
it it gets quite desperate to succeed and that desperation to succeed to be
seen to be successful is is what can easily happen and I was there for a long
time just trying to gain enlightenment trying to gain more awareness and going oh maybe you can’t do it anymore and
actually it was my own hurt towards my own experience exper my own lack of
success with the dharma, my own insufficiencies that I was really
grappling with and I saw my friends and I saw other people and they were really skilled in
their practices and I just and so I just I was just hurt and so
often my temperament is to become superior and to be you shouldn’t be doing that
and you can’t do that and all those things that you’re saying. And so recognizing
that we are we’re just kind of confused and limited.
And I guess for you in how you’re responding, I would perhaps encourage
you to look at that part of you that wants to say, “No, you’ve got it wrong.”
And and I would probably go there. And before I do anything I want to say Amani
sauce says hi. So hi Amani. Um so yeah
just that’s that’s what I would say and I hope I have answered your question. I
think it well yeah if it um and it’s opened up some other things of course too and when I say this it’s not that
it’s wrong you know what I mean but in a way yeah you could say that it is wrong but but it’s it’s like okay I want to
it’s more about how do I I how do we reach in there and encourage each other and lift each other up instead of you
know encouraging uh inferiority. So that’s you’re talking about inferiority conceit. That’s a
conceit too. But then you know you and I both and most people do we bounce back and forth from superiority to
inferiority. And what I really like about this long game um when you put it in perspective at a really long game we
think about the sama sam Buddha that we have and how many um incalcables. Okay
that’s that’s longer than an eon. I don’t know how many eons constitute an incalculable. It’s this unfathomable
amount of time that it took for him to gain these parameas which I don’t know
if they’re usually considered um perfections which is not a helpful term for inferiority people right but so it’s
like building this up over eons and incalculable amount of times to get this
to the point so when it comes to we we look at fellow dharma practitioners we don’t know how how many lifetimes they
have been practicing really intensely right And so it doesn’t help. And then there’s the comparison conceit too,
right? When we’re comparing ourselves to others. So that’s what just kind of encouraged the long view here that it is
possible. And if we consider this notion of maybe there could be past lives and maybe um there could be all this
practice and param built up and that could explain why some people are are seemingly further along than others. And
you know, to me, it it it got to a point where, yeah, of course, I can relate to that, too. But then seeing this and
being inspired by that, wow, I’m sitting next to someone that has all this uh
wisdom and and and Wendy’s heart. It’s amazing. I mean, the aspiration you sent uh set and in body, I feel fairly well,
is you you you’re you bring it into uh Jesus, right? That loving everyone. I
mean, what an amazing aspiration, you know? Why not? Why not set the bar as
high as you can? I mean, you know, just don’t tell everybody because some people they won’t get it. But, you know, you
don’t have to tell anybody. You we the titagata, right? The the when they ask who the Buddha was, he’s a titagata. And
what one translation I like that is I am thus. You’ll know me by my actions. I don’t have to tell you who I am. Okay,
I’ve got so many social media followers or I wish I had more or you know, I’ve done this in my life. Well, that’s all
great and fine, too. But how about okay, this is how I am. Know me by my
the actions. I I don’t know that. So that’s that’s kind of what comes to mind around that. Yeah. Encouragement and
empowerment. How do we lift each other up and encourage each other? It’s really easy to talk about too. But you know
what if we’re having a how do we do that when we’re having a bad day? You know, when we really need it. And I think that’s where we uh friends can help us
out too when when we need that if if they have the capacity too. Yeah. So,
all right. So, I just looked up parameter and uh through one of the language large language model uh AI
systems and par means the far shore and meter means gone or arrived.
Interestingly, you’d go gone or arrived like they sound contradictory but
actually it means whatever. So paramata is a virtue that helps you reach the far
shore of enlightenment it says here but awakening in the terravada traditions 10
paramese generosity virtue renunciation wisdom and we’ve talked about wisdom
before it’s not about being more knowledgeable or whatever it’s about seeing things clearly and and yeah uh
energy patience energy I probably would put as effort how your diligence
patience truthfulness determination Not through grim determination but more
setting your heart to forward on a regular basis. Loving kindness and
equinimity. In Mahayana traditions the six permitars generosity, morality,
patience, energy, meditation, wisdom and then it sometimes expanded to 10. I also
looked up the teat ah let me just uh
tatagata. So I looked it up and it says tataha often spelled suchness or
thusness refers to the true nature of reality as it is beyond concepts labels or dualistic thinking. Tatata suchness
means things just as they are points to the ultimate unchanging nature of all phenomena. It is not a thing but a way
things truly are. when seen without delusion or confusion. I prefer confusion because you go I don’t I’m I’m
really I’ve got these these going round and round round and round round and I’m really muddled you know. Uh it’s closely
related to shunata emptiness the insight that things lack inherent separate existence and tatagata the one who has
realized suchness a title the Buddha uses for himself. In simple terms, tatata is the reality that remains when
all our stories, judgments, and mental constructions fall away. I obviously spelled
I said I did. I did, but it got me the wrong but we we got there in the end.
We got there. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s right. Like when we It’s just kind of like the raw experience, right? Raw
experience. And and I wanted to add something. So, you know, we often have this thing and and I have this really strong practice
which is to notice the and I think this has been my my most effective practice.
It’s to notice the small things that people do to help me feel at ease. So earlier this week and I was at the um
operations center for the transport uh the the state transport agency which
looks the whole of the state Queensland for all of them trains, buses, fairies,
uh trams, everything. And um and I arrived and I was I asked a
question and then somebody asked me a question um
back and I and he goes, “Oh my goodness, you have such energy.” And I and I
explained that well partly it’s my disposition. I just have lots of energy. Um, but mostly it’s restored or
maintained because I see the kind gestures that people do to me to help me
feel at ease. So the other day he just answered me a question back and he took an interest and he kind of engaged with
me about the topic. Now they seem like, oh well, why is that important? But then
when you ask a question to somebody and they go, yeah, okay, I don’t know if you’ve had that experience, but I have
it a lot. I notice it when somebody doesn’t do that. And so I go, “Oh, wow. That’s really lovely. That person sort
of put me at ease in that way.” And so I’ve been thinking about this idea of
how to be, you know, Buddhism’s got this whole thing about being happy. And I think that’s not really a great
translation. And I don’t know what the correct translation is, but for me, I find that’s like I’m supposed to be, you
know, it’s kind of delusion and excitable. And I think it can be too too confusing, you know, totally
because particularly in America, you’ve got the pursuit of happiness is a sort of in your constitution or whatever it’s
called. And I think um you know the Russians, you know, they don’t even want happiness.
Don’t smile at them. Yeah. You know, you don’t smile because you are crazy. You see crazy if you’re if
you’re if you do that. So I think it’s much more um the capacity to feel
comfort, the desire to feel comfort. It’s that simple. It’s like me twisting
my ankle and it hurts. So do I want to move away from the discomfort of that hurt? Yes, I
do actually. Would I like not to have a twisted ankle and be hobbling around the house with a cup, you know, trying to
make a cup of tea? Of course. Do I want to be sort of slightly at an angle? No, I don’t. I want to be comfortable. I’d
rather have you sit there, but I can’t because of my leg. So, I can’t. So, I think it’s I think maybe that’s
discomfort is maybe a better way to describe duka and suka is comfort. I
don’t know. But I I think that’s a a better way. And when we when we see the
translation of the tagata which is to see things as they are you know we with
the suchness a person who sees things as they are actually you just have comfort
without being niggled at by an axle wheel that’s grumpy at you. Anyway
that’s my thought. So there you go. I I get the sentiment and I I appreciate
it too. I for me personally I would refine it just a little bit because from what I understand being high on heroin
is very comfortable you know. Yeah. But you you’ve got the come down. So it’s not but you it’s not comfortable
because I’m sure heroin is like amazing. There’s a reason why people do it you know a lot of pain have the heroin no
pain until you get the come down. And so and and it’s the come down which
is the problem. And then you are not comfortable cuz then you have to go out and you’ll do anything for that.
That’s right. Yeah. And and so I think it’s there. So sure. Yeah.
Yeah. And I like what you said about ease. That’s if I were to choose it, ease for me is is great because that’s
in the metaut too. Contentment I resonate with that because in in Denmark, you know, from what I it’s just
not culturally appropriate to be really uh uh extrovertedly showy and uh in a
happy manner, right? It’s just not how people’s dispositions are. But contentment is and cozy culture and
comfort like you’re saying that’s very valued. So yeah. And so the the only
other thing um some people they need more of a comfort zone and some people need less. You know, I’m thinking like
some of the generations maybe that have been maybe overly modled
have basically said that they could never do anything wrong. that they’re basically lied to and said, “Oh, you’re
you’re you’re doing so wonderful and so great.” You know, in the wrong in different context where, you know, maybe
that doesn’t apply. Of course, we’re all worthy of our own love and the love and affection from others. Of course, that’s
where the equality goes and the com. So, I I And then what comes to mind around
is nourishment, right? Nourishment. The only thing is with this u we talked
about this before. We’ve got pleasant which is basically comfort, right? And we’ve got helpful. That’s the goal.
That’s what we want all the time. It’s pleasant and it’s helpful. But sometimes
we have something pleasant and it’s not helpful. And we don’t want that though, right? So, so and then we have we have
unpleasant and helpful. That’s actually something that that is of value. And it
sucks not to have the pleasantness around it, but some things that aren’t pleasant in the short term can be
helpful, especially in the long term. And then we have the one that everybody agrees on, unpleasant, unhelpful. So
that’s the only caveat here I would say around this. You know what I mean? Now this I’m not talking about tough love,
you know, suck it up. This is good for you. Not that. It’s just, you know, you
think I’m trying to think of an example of when it’s not pleasant, but it’s it’s good for me. You know what I mean? It’s
helpful. I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna sort of throw it at you. Okay. So Deborah today she has
said that her mom is very very unwell with thyroid cancer and
it’s very from what it’s either it’s not terminal then it’s kind of you know that’s certainly a question that’s being
asked and so describe to me your framework
in a way that is appropriate for Deborah in her situation with her mom. Tell me.
M well don’t go do heroin um because you’re you’re in pain to do it you know
so you so so yeah how does it feel and um whatever you’re going through you
know where we need to discern what’s helpful and what’s not and then we need
to go towards the helpful and then it you know so if if if the helpful part of
it is pleasant that’s all the better you know but if there’s also some unhelpful
thing um then maybe we need to just keep going towards what’s helpful you know
regardless of whether it’s pleasant or not of course if we have the option to make it pleasant as well then then we
aim for that right now I I’m I’m blanking on what it is you know so you have to kind of go through moment by
moment and the thing with emotions I feel is they they they can change so rapidly and it could be unhelpful at
times to feel them and it could be unhelpful at times to ignore for them and pretend they don’t exist and to numb
out. Right? So, it really depends, right? Um this is where we need the discernment and friends and wise
guidance because sometimes it’s both ways. Sometimes we need to feel it deeply and sometimes it’s too much and
and it’s not helpful to do that, right? Yeah. Yeah. As somebody who’s experienced a
bit of grief, uh what do I think pain pleasant
helpful? I think I think sometimes pleasant is
helpful even when it might seem like it’s such a
intense time you don’t know whether you’re Arthur. This is an Australian expression. You don’t know whether you’re Arthur or Martha.
Um so so sometimes you don’t know what is
helpful in that situation because it’s so searingly painful. Um, and so,
uh, I think there is a really a really strong need a bit like what you
said before about giving yourself you a bit of slack. Yes.
And and I think also reaching out to others when it gets too
much. My my thing that I often say to women who are pregnant is if you get to
the point where you hate your baby, your child, it means you need to help. Um you
need to ask for help. And that has been the single best advice that so you
because they get lots of lots of advice and they go, “Okay, I’m I hate my baby. I’m gonna harm my baby because I’m tired
and I can’t cope. I’m gonna ask for help.” And they say, “This is the single thing.” And I think the same kind of
situation arises because it’s such a state of crisis and it’s so unbearable
that if you if you are at the point where you are hurting yourself
uh reach out for help. So I I I don’t know maybe I don’t know that’s just absolutely my thoughts. I was speaking
with a friend yes um a few days ago and he was he was relating some really intense things from childhood and just
unbelievable unbearable things and yeah you know in in some people abuse is
never okay right and compassion is always the right response I feel appropriate response to pain and um yes
so but not justifying staying around an abuse to you know if if abuse is being
done and then like Wendy says as if that yeah, you know, and if we look at comma
karmic consequences, we’ll just say it’ll be better long term for both
everyone involved, you know, to reach out and do that. Yeah. So, yeah. And
people um people are here to help and serve and without them, they don’t have
a purpose either. It’s not to make an excuse for bad things to happen so people could come in and be a hero or say, but no, there there are people
here. you’re you’re helping them out too by allowing them to help you, you know what I mean? So, yeah. Um, and just, you
know, Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I sort of I think that
probably responds to that. I just think it’s really easy to um do the theory of of this without really
engaging with kind of how hard some situations just are and it’s too too
unbearable. But we have a a thing here from Icy Fox 2 which is hi what’s your
opinion on furries and so it came up at the time when I was talking about fairy
so I don’t know what that is but if this is not a med Buddhist meditation Q& this is a Buddhist meditation Q&A so if
that’s not about Buddhist meditation Q&A then I’m going to let that one go. So
I’m just putting it up there. That’s Thank you, Wendy, for taking the reigns there because yeah, this I I I another
looks like a little trickster archetype. I think we got another one of these comments. I mean, this is this is what
happens when you’re on streaming live to social media platforms sometimes. I’ll just laugh and brush it off. That’s
that’s kind of funny. So, Wendy can look it up later if she want if she’s really that interested. But the thing
Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s probably some scummy thing and which I’m you know, and I’m happy not to know what
that is. You know, who cares? Well, that’s that’s right. And uh for the most part, but also it’s for for younger
generations that um there’s actually um anyway, I I’ll I’ll give Wendy some
background time if we ever want to address that because it could be a younger generational thing that that can
be more serious as far as far as asking for help in a certain way. So let me just uh put another little end on that
is um you know some and the reason some people I think aren’t uh just don’t do
it automatically is because it can cause complications sometimes and we can go to the wrong people for help
too you know so let’s acknowledge that um as well and so it’s it’s not easy you
know we have to use discernment too and sometimes we’re not able to access that discernment so again this is why really
good spiritual friends are helpful because they’ve got your back and you’ve got their back, right? And if you have a
teacher to that you trust and can resonate with and receive benefit from, it’s a great another great person to run
by u to doublech checkck uh choices and stuff when you can. Yeah, I’ve just dropped my cold pack, so sorry
about going off screen momentarily. It’s just the joy of having this
discomfort. Um yeah, so
yeah, I’m sorry for being naivity. I actually decided I would switch off a great deal of social media and things
that were unpleasant in life. I decided a few years ago to watch the news because I just decided it made me
unhappy and I decided, you know, who needs to be in an abusive space? You know, I found out with with the media,
the ordinary news media, that their job is to report the bad. So basically, if you just want to be miserable, watch the
news because that’s actually what they they plan for. Um, and so I just decided
I just didn’t need to do that. So I don’t know about lots of things and I’m not entirely unhappy about that because
look how much joy I have in my life compared to people who spend their lives watching the news.
And I’m the same way. It’s uh I’ve been reensitized to that. I haven’t had a TV for years. I I scan headlines from time
to time or some social media stuff, you know, in the mainstream. And that’s right. they it’s a shock value to sell
advertisements on the most um um base level. I mean, it can get a lot more
insidious than that, but it’s pretty obvious that they’re there to do the bidding of their pay masters. And the
more things they say, you know, it’s not it’s not a dog bites man that’s news, it’s man bites dog. So, the more
extreme, you know, the more attention people can u get to it and then the more
advertising they can sell. And at the end of the day, does it does it really help my life? And how much of what I’m
reading in the news or seeing in the news is actually applies to my everyday life? And I would say very very little
uh for the most part, right? Um politics are designed to trigger people out emotionally. And so yeah, I’m sure a
lot of people listening to that are already listening to this are already on to that. Well,
I mean, just making a sort of a comment on that and I did look up fairies and I thought, yep, I’m glad I haven’t gone
there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um so but I I do think that what we are looking at
here and you know in Tibetan Buddhism there is uh the the Tongland slogans and
one of them is to uh what does it say? It says something about abandon
poisonous food. And poisonous food is not just poisonous food
like don’t eat toxic foods like um ultrarocessed foods and stuff like that
but actually don’t take in uh obviously drugs, alcohol, all that
sort of stuff, but also don’t take in um
uh information that is toxic to your mind. So news would be one of those and
also people people who are toxic. Now it’s not easy. So, a friend of mine,
his mental health is not great and he’s made a big mess of his life and he’s had to move back to his parents and he it’s
a sort of extended community where there are certain social obligations and um is
very tricky because there’s all these social obligations and you can’t say
that I can’t say this to my parents because they will share that in the broader community.
So, it’s not like Yeah. So um
so what was where was I going that? So in that instance
don’t don’t um what did I say? Abandon poisonous foods. It means try and keep
out as much as you can of of environments that are toxic and and
unhealthy. And I think that often means leaving workplaces if you can if you if
it becomes too much where it’s where people are being really mean to you, you
know. So, so that yeah, this is the nutrients, right? What Wendy mentioned, it’s not just physical food,
which we can all know that there’s poisonous foods, right? It’s not a value judgment. It’s not that I’m being insensitive or u not respecting people’s
dietary choices. there are certain things that make people sick, you know, and why it might be an inconvenience for, you know, a group that somebody
can’t eat something, you know, this is this is something else. So, but then like Wendy said that the there’s also
emotional um nutrient, there’s there’s thoughts in the mind and that’s the news, right? And then there I think it’s
consciousness, right? It’s these nutrients and a lot of us don’t think of it like that. But once we really see
that these have a huge effect on the the mind and body and heart and spirit and well-being, we do this and it’s even
more complex because what some people think is totally socially acceptable and okay and not bad for them. Um people
with more sensitivity that it really affects them, you know. And then you have this whole older, not just older
generation, but some people are insensitive. Then they they they they say, “Oh, you’re just a you’re a
or you know, that’s not real. You’re making that up.” Or, “Come on, just buck it up.” And no, it’s BS, you know. And
then you have the other extreme where um people are so kind of fragile and frail
and uh are are like um there’s hardly any resilience whatsoever. And every
little thing can can trigger like a turmoil and a crisis. You know what I mean? So these are the two extremes of
these. So where do we kind of uh go towards the middle and and help the
others on you know without being you know judgmental either but also saying
hey you know um we need to so yeah how do we do it? I’ll just ask Wendy that
instead of me just fumbling in the dark here, right? How do we bring the give teach more resilience and at the same
time teach more tolerance to the other extreme, right? I think it’s much easier than you
imagine. So the first thing is don’t tell anybody how to live their life. That’s their life. Cuz otherwise if some
if somebody tries to tell me ah you know you should do this and you should do that, you know, I want to de I want I’m
going to hit them. I mean I don’t need them literally but I just in my mind I know not anymore. No I mean I never did
but I you know I used to give as good as I got and then some you know so anger
has been my work. It’s been my journey but if somebody tells me how to live my
life I I it’s hurtful. It means you don’t really understand me.
And so what I tend to do is to do my I it what it means is I need to listen
better. If I don’t understand what’s important to them, I need to listen better to
them. I need to tune my sensitivity to them. Now, what has this got to do with meditation Q&A? We might ask because we
have to keep on track here. is I think um
in order to listen to others, we have to listen to ourselves. And I my hunch is a
lot of what we’re doing in our meditation practice is actually learning to listen to ourselves.
That’s really what I and and I think that’s learning to listen to ourselves and learning to be kind to ourselves.
And when we can do that for ourselves, and that’s why I love this practice where you notice the small gestures that
people do to help you feel at ease. Like in that moment, you said, “Well, I’ll just let Wendy talk about that cuz I can
see she’s bursting to talk about it.” And you helped me feel at ease and and
so and plus I didn’t have I didn’t have anything to offer, too. So you a great combination, right?
And and and so I think that it’s that simple. And when you notice all these small things that people do to help you
feel at ease, um I I think you naturally become void and
and people people just delight like these guys that I met at this transport
thing on Tuesday and they’re like, “Wow.” And I felt like somebody was
going, “She’s got God or something and it’s like no.” It’s like because I do meet a lot of people here who are very
very they’re in the evangelical churches and they say, “God told me to do it.” And and I met somebody on Monday who and
she just that’s her vocation because God told her to do it and I think this is great. Um it’s just not the way that I
do it. And and and if I notice the small things that people do to help me feel at ease, I just I can
listen. I remain voided. It brings an energy that people just love. So this
morning on my little walk, um before I twisted my ankle, I bumped into one of
the one of the locals. Now, she’s not somebody I would ever socialize with. She comes from a different class and
very poor down and out. And I just went, “Oh, I’ve been looking for you. I’ve been wondering how you’re going.” And
she said this, that, and all the rest. And and it was just so lovely. And if I
was somebody who didn’t come with that um openhearted love, people just want to
feel loved. They want to feel listened to. They want to feel understood. It’s not complicated. And so that’s what I
love about that practice. And she sees me and she just lights up and I see her
and I light up and it’s this really it forms this really virtuous cycle. So did
I answer your question? I’ve got no idea. But I’ve had a great time to say. No, I was just lost in the good energy
here. It’s great. And uh absolutely. You know, people can feel this and know it
right away, right? And it’s a great protective mechanisms because people can let their guards down. They know you
have their best interest at heart. And I love how you do meta because you’re out there like a scientist in some ways,
too. Like, okay, what are people offering me that makes me feel at ease? Well, then I have that in my repertoire and then I can give that back and I know
new ways to to dole this out to other people to know how to make them feel at ease. So, it’s just like this
compounding you know what’s the curve that goes up you know um exponential and
to you know these are limitless states too. So there there is no limit and it’s great how many times were we told to
limit ourselves and to have boundaries you know when the time’s appropriate but there’s no need for limits and there are
no limits around this too you know there’s just just appropriateness and uh when the time’s right and and when this
this state meets um hard times and turns to compassion you know and when it meets
other people’s happiness it turns to rejoicing so yeah there’s more than one
person happy and um yeah then there’s the deep underlying equinimity that uh kind of balances it
all out. So yeah, these are these are beautiful states. Yeah, absolutely. And what you said about listening in
meditation. Oh, it’s so um so on spot I feel you know uh especially for those I
think living in community and and and in group containers and then socializing before and after. Um, I’m thinking at
monasteries and stuff. This listening is a really, you know, I mean, see because you’re living with people, too. And this
I like this whole body listening. And it’s not just with their ears either, right? It’s attuning to the other person
and what’s going on with them and the interaction, the relationship that’s happening whether we want it to or not,
you know. And um, yeah, cutting slack where it needs to be, slack. Um, if the
person’s open to be held accountable, we we’re there to offer that, too. Like, what’s needed now? I love this really
standard basic question that that does a lot of work, you know, what’s needed now. Yeah.
So, uh, M. Reed is on channel today. Lovely to see you again today. So, she
says that is what Deborah can offer to her mom also. Accept the strength she
has and she can walk the path she is in now. One step at a time. It’s with true
honest love and then the listen to herself part and then listen to her body
etc. Her p her her body wants her attention now. So uh this is a bit of
all communal love here just not giving advice but just putting forward some
ideas that may or may not work. So everything is always a question. What’s
this? Everything in life is a question. Does this work? That’s great. I love this. Um um
offering her to um to accept the strength she has. So that’s right. So there’s there’s still some strength
there and that can be amplified, right? So focusing on what strength is there can be um acknowledged and amplified too
and focused on that. So where we focus the energy will actually go to, right? And yeah, one step at a time. That’s how
we walk. We don’t I mean some people I guess can leap for a little bit you know and uh maybe uh do some air walking when
they’re jumping through the sky but still it’s basically one step at a time right and listening to the body is is
definitely key and that’s a great metaphor listening to the body what does the body need the body won’t lie to you
like the mind the mind has no shame it will come up with all kinds of stuff but the body is pretty much in as far as I
understand it’s incapable of lying you know so you had that really steady
resource there. Um, you know, to listen to our bodies. What does it need?
Well, my body is feeling a little bit uncomfortable here. So, I’ll be glad
when it’s an hour up. Yeah, exactly. It’s getting very close here. So, I wonder if there’s anything else here
in my little description. Um, what else can catch us off balance in meditation
and the wider world? Well, well, what how long’s your list there? Yeah, exactly. How much time do we have?
Right. For sure. Um, but I think I think going
back to your your thing, the the the mind is not even loyal to itself.
Yeah. And no shame either. Yep. You know, it doesn’t want to go into
feeling any shame. And I think that’s um Yeah. So,
but but I think that as you say, the body keeps the score. The that’s really what what is truthful.
Yeah. And I think um
just it’s it’s okay to feel hurt. So, the the mind doesn’t ever want to feel hurt.
They did it to me. But I think I I was watching a a television series and um
and uh it was somebody who’d been caught for a very bad crime and he said, “Oh, how could this happen to me?” And she
and the police officer said, “You you did this to yourself actually.
You did this. You did this. You brought this onto yourself actually.”
And I think about that and and it’s a little I don’t want to be sort of self-rriminating or anything, but
I think there is something about
um yeah, I don’t want to be self-criminating, but I think there is
something about taking responsibility and not avoiding
reality and the pain of the body. Yeah, absolutely. You know, no one else is
responsible for our speech and action, you know. So, we have to take responsibility. Heir of my comma, owner
of my comma, you know, whatever I do, be it skillful or unskillful, I’m going to be the heir of that action, you know.
So, that’s just how it works on a conventional level as far as I know. So, yeah, absolutely. And there’s, you
mentioned shame. It’s a big one. There’s healthy shame, shame that’s helpful actually that that prevents harm in the
future uh for ourselves and others. And then there’s the unhelpful shame. Oh, it just this looping and how how could I be
such a bad person? I’m so horrible. You know, on and on and on and then then get in this rut and get in the mud and can’t
get out and you know, I can never do anything. You know, it’s just on and on and on. So, yeah, there’s a helpful
shame and an unhelpful shame for sure. So my friend who’s found himself in this
bad situation and he’s now living back at home, that’s what he lives with and
I’m trying to support him and it’s actually quite it’s quite painful, you know. Um he also follows a different
religion so I I don’t want to in intrude on his religious uh inclination
and but I I but I want to honor that humanity. Um, and but I also am very straight with
him. I’m going, “Well, you actually brought this on yourself because you’ve been not wanting to look at your mental health and we’ve tried this over a few
years.” And and he’s always going, “No, it’s it’s the situation. It’s the situation. It’s the situation.” It’s
like, “It’s not the situation. It’s it’s it’s actually you’re not going there.”
And there is something and I don’t want to kind of suggest that Deborah has got
to be always present, but if you’re um
you know the one common denominator in all your relationships is you. So if you have these recurring crises,
there is something that you are doing that you need to look at. And I think
that that’s where meditation can be super helpful and I think that’s it
strength. Absolutely. It was for me because I there are so many things I couldn’t see without it you know and yes there are
complex causes and conditions and we’re not responsible for everything that happens to us. Not everything is karma
but where is the willingness to say okay I take responsibility. This is going to empower me when I take self-
responsibility. What can I do to address this? because it doesn’t matter so much what happened in the past right now it
can change due to my intentionality of what actions and choices I make now will
have an effect will pay off in the future so that’s what should be focused on what what is my role my choices in
this right now and for my long-term benefit and happiness and that of others so yes and that’s empowering we can do
that we can take responsibility and do what we can do to to change things you know because our action they do make a
difference otherwise there would be no point of doing or saying anything, you know, be complete. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. So, my friend for my birthday, I said, “This is what I want. It’s my birthday present.” And she she got her
kids to decorate it for me. And it says I think Arthur Ash who is a tennis player who grew up um black man and he
grew up under segregation in during the 50s and his motto was start where you are
use what you have do what you can and never dispute with the umpire who was
always going to be white. So, um, and I think, uh, but I love that start where
you are, use what you have, do what you can, but also be aware there are structural problems that mean that you
can’t just do what you want to do. And I I think there there’s a hard reality.
Yeah. So, that’s that’s what I we’re at time. We’re at time. We’re at we’re at time. I just there’s
one last thing I want to say about the the Christian thing is yes, do what God tells you to do unless he tells you to
start a religious war. Please don’t do that because that’s been known to happen before. So please, please don’t start a
religious war. Okay. Um Yeah. Yeah. Same of any religion, Buddhist, otherwise.
Exactly. Absolutely. Yep. All right. Uh I don’t know if that’s exactly where I wanted to end it, but uh
here we are. And so may everyone’s practice go well and may you communicate what you need to communicate in a
skillful manner and uh yeah, do it in a balanced way. Right. And thanks everyone for being on the
show and bringing your your you here. So lovely to have you here. Beautiful. Love
your and sharing and chiming in. Be it eeny meenie miny mo or furries. So yeah,
whatever. All that. Why not? Yeah. So yeah. All right. All right. Sending love to everyone. Bye.
Yes. Love you all. Goodbye.
Integrating Presence 
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