In this thirty-sixth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into trust: its aspects in and outside of formal meditation and how these interrelate and feed into each other as well as the importance of trust for so many things. To name a few: confidence, courage, openness, honesty, safety, intuition, friendship, ethics, societal functionality and their opposites and spectrums
Ai basically summarized our chat thus:
Wendy’s Personal Story
- Wendy shares a recent skin cancer diagnosis and treatment on her face (near the right eye, stitches down the cheek).
- She contrasts a disinterested doctor (free clinic) with a trusted one who showed genuine care, skill, and diligence.
- Removal was timely; further growth could have reached the eye. Stitches removed that morning – painful but successful.
- Contrasts her minor issue with her computer guy’s stage-4 esophageal cancer.
- Core insight: Trust begins with “mattering” – does the other person’s well-being matter to them? (Inspired by a recent book on relationships.)
Core Themes of Trust
Interpersonal Trust
- Interest in the other’s well-being builds trust.
- Honesty, competence, boundaries, and straightforwardness are key.
- Lack of honesty or self-centeredness erodes trust; some people are instinctively trustworthy due to broader worldview.
Self-Trust & Meditation
- Meditation reveals self-clarity: “It’s often me being the idiot” – seeing unskillful behavior without self-flagellation.
- Builds self-trust by testing the Dharma (“kick the tires”) – Wendy transformed from angry to calm through practice.
- Trust in practice yields confidence: “I can sit, let go, and just be.”
Spiritual/Buddhist Dimensions
- Trust in karma, impermanence, and universal laws (faith + field-testing).
- Equanimity amid dukkha (old age, sickness, death); trust in goodness/order despite chaos.
- Links to faith (saddha) in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha; balances with wisdom (paññā).
Wisdom (Paññā) Clarified
- Not intellectual knowledge, but direct seeing of impermanence, dukkha, non-self (anatta).
- Three levels: hearing (suta-maya), reflection (cinta-maya), meditation/insight (bhāvanā-maya).
- Experiential, compassionate; cuts ignorance (avidyā). Wisdom without heart is cold; compassion without wisdom is sentimental.
Cultural & Societal Trust
- Cross-cultural experiences (Australia, UK, US, Denmark, monasteries):
- Xenophobia often stems from unfamiliarity, not racism.
- Cultural norms shape identity; abroad, one feels liberated or lonely (e.g., English reserve vs. Australian openness).
- Monasteries offer universal Dharma ground beyond cultural overlays.
- Societal level: “In God We Trust” (added 1950s) reflects social contract (e.g., currency).
- Modern erosion: Capitalism reduces people to data/productivity → hollow, lonely, less trust in institutions.
Trust in Relationships & Society
- Golden Rule: Openness to foreigners; friendliness (metta) repels harm.
- Goal-oriented (Protestant work ethic) vs. relational focus → distorted effort, complacency.
- Lack of societal trust: Governments/employers not prioritizing welfare → “I don’t matter.”
Key Practices & Takeaways
- Meditation as Container: Observe self in context, own fallibility, build broader view.
- Self-Reflection Questions:
- Why don’t I trust myself? (Acknowledge unskillful acts with sincerity.)
- What would life be without trust in reality? (Maddening.)
- Tibetan Slogan (Closing): “Of the two witnesses, trust the principal one.” – Only you know when you’re kidding yourself.
Tone: Raw, personal, humorous, paradoxical. Trust is relational, experiential, and cultivated through practice – from doctor’s stitches to global society. Ends on hope: Deepen self-trust for good reasons.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Trust | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #36
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
ating presence and today I have uh very intrepid Wendy Nash with me. Wendy,
what’s going on? Well, hello. Greetings from Gubby Gabby country in Queensland in Kula in
Australia. So, uh Queensland is the skin cancer capital of the world and I am not
immune. So, it’s been an interesting journey. Today, I think we’re going to talk about trust. So, I thought that was
very interesting. So, I was at the doctor this morning. We had to shift a couple of hours later because of my doctor’s appointment. And basically I I
thought about trust quite a bit because actually I’ve got this well a I I went
and so I’m sort of trusting the doctor in June. I have to get skin cancer checked every day every every year. Um,
and I went to the the the doctor cuz I trust that he’s going to do a good job
cuz I went to another doctor, skin doctor clinic, and I just felt they were
that he was, it was a free service, but he was terrible. He didn’t seem
interested. So, I thought trust is actually having an interest in the other person’s well-being. Like, it already
starts to build from there. So, I went in June and then he said, “There’s
something here. It’s probably nothing, but if you start to feel a bit uncomfortable, just come back and we’ll
shave it.” So, I I went I went, “Yeah, no, I want it out.” So, he shaved it and
uh it never really healed and I thought it was just a pimple or you know, like
something. And then I was at the GPS a couple of weeks ago and at the doctor and she said, “I think that’s a skin
cancer.” So I was going, “Oh.” So I went up to the hospital cuz I couldn’t get an
appointment in time and I just went they’ve got a really good clinic up the road and um public hospital and
he said and she said, “No, that’s that’s a skin cancer.” So I’m going, “Okay.”
So, I went in and um and they said, “Yep, look, it’s probably nothing. It’s
probably just a biopsy and that’s fine.” And then they got the biopsy back and they went, “No, that’s a skin cancer.”
And so, he had to So, I’ve had a couple of procedures since we last met. And so, he had to take I hope you’re not
squeamish. So he had to take out quite a quite a kind of he was drawing it with
his marker, you know, quite a a size and a bit of a line. And then he
and so he sewed it up and it’s actually just here, but this the stitches go all the way
down to here, which I’m a bit weird about. So last Wednesday, that was Wednesday
last week, he put the stitches in and and everything and I was a bit I’m
pleased to have it up, but and I have to trust that he’s he’s kind of got it all,
you know, and I have to trust that he’s going to give me a look at the end
because this is my face. I’m not a particularly vain person, but nonetheless, I don’t want to look like a pirate for the rest of my life. And so
I’ve got this so it’s this line I’m going is this going to be like a permanent line in the middle of my face
and I I think probably the answer is yes. But on Thursday I was trying to I was
talking with my uh uh my computer guy and I said, “Oh, look, I haven’t seen
you in ages. Are you can you fix up just this thing cuz it’s actually super urgent.” And he said, “Look, I’ve just
been diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer.” So I’m going, okay, I’m going to have to find somebody else about
that. So this idea of trust and so this morning I
went to the the skin doctor and he took out the stitches and it it actually really hurt because of the way
stitches and I won’t go who are squeamish and and it was just it did hurt a little
bit but it’s done. And he said basically if if it had grown any more
he would actually have been a real problem because it would have been too close up to the eye. They wouldn’t have had enough skin for the stitches. So I
have to he said I got everything. So clinically you’re safe. You you got I
got everything but histoologgically it wasn’t kind of that edge. And so that
sense of creep out, you know, this Queensland, I was on the way back and, you know, skin cancers. So I’ve been
hearing skin cancer stories all week cuz I had these stitches on my face and a
bandage. It’s like and I’ve also had, you know, networking events and stuff. And so there is a so much trust. I have
to trust that he’s going to do clean stitches. I have to trust that he is skillful in his knowledge. I have to
trust that he is diligent and competent
and I have to trust that today’s medical capacities
actually are going to be good enough. So normally they say come back in a year and this morning he said see you in six
months. I’m like okay. So there’s it it’s one thing to go, yeah, I
mean, I don’t really want to have a big line in the middle of my face, but I sort of want skin cancer less. You know,
you got to make the decision that is the least bad often. And so I’m going, okay, well, that’s
that. And it’s not stage four esophageal cancer. So trust that’s I said I would
tell you about it when I saw you and you’re like, “Oh yeah, something happened to you.” So that’s what happened to me. Josh is just hearing
this for the first time, boys and girls. That’s right. This is the um this is where the rubber meets the road with
with practice. And for those of you who are not seeing this and just listening to the audio, uh Wendy has a a bandage
near the top of her left eye. Is I can’t tell with the mirroring. Left or right eye? Right eye. Okay.
It’s actually the top of the right eye. So, you know, if you think about when you’re wearing glasses and and you’ve got that the little foot of the glasses
that sits where the the frames are. So, it sort of is there. It’s where the actual skin cancer is. And then the
stitches go down across the cheek. So, if you go directly under the eye, probably about 3 cm, so 10 stitches down
the down the face. So, so apologies for those who are squeamish, but it’s okay, you know.
Yeah. I mean, well, you’re going through it. I mean, yeah, it’s one thing to be squeamish. It’s another thing to
actually have to to to to do this. You’re, you know, so yeah. And so trust.
Yeah. We’re just a minute here to uh Yeah. And I never really uh I guess
framed it in the way you did, which is a great way to do it. Um is that you have
kind of this feeling that someone cares, right? Um is that how you framed it? Do
it more explicitly again. Yeah. Yeah. It is you you you have to be
trust is does have an element that the other person cares about me actually
that I’ve been actually looking a lot who’s just published a book and he said
that mattering so not resilience not self-esteem but mattering is what matter
is what kind of is the core of relationships. So does my well-being matter to my
doctor? That’s the basis of that’s the foundation of trust. So
do you matter and do I matter? Do each other matter? This is the foundation of
trust. I think you know it’s really interesting to to contemplate it this way. I guess I come
at trust a different way. I think of something else a lot. I think of is is
this person trustworthy? are they full of BS? Are they trying to deceive me?
Or, you know, can can I um are they responsible enough to do what needs to
be done? So, it’s it’s really interesting and I don’t think that’s an invalid, but I think yours goes way u
more to the core of of the issue. You know what I mean? And I think there’s it
seems like there’s an element of letting go of control too because at a certain point when we choose whether we’re going
to give trust or not then at a certain point uh yeah because I think why do we
need to trust someone or not? because there’s an element we feel we can’t control I think is one of the things
right um yeah so that’s that this and control is a whole another topic but
that’s another thing that comes up when I think about trust and then we we hear hear about earning someone’s trust right
and people who kind of misabuse trust another ele there’s so many elements
I’ll just throw another one into the pot of soup here um is um honesty right so
if someone is in is not consistently honest uh with me then I really don’t
they have to really then earn my trust because you know if someone’s not being honest
and straightforward um or deliberately so then you know how can I really uh
trust that person and well I I take that back there’s one other thing here um we
talk about people that um just kind of they some people just seem to be more trustworthy automatically and other
people are really suspicious and somebody really has to earn their trust. So that’s another element. So plenty of
stuff here I think. Yeah. So all right. So we’re Q&A meditation.
So um yeah that’s another thing. Let’s look at that. So I my my sense of
what you’re saying is that is that what you’re asking yourself
whether that person is trustworthy whether they are honest whether they
at at the foundation there’s something about how will they treat me
and that’s your question I think and so yes does I does my humanity, my need, my
experience, my sk my my skin, my care, my wealth, my my health matter to the
other person enough that they will be honest,
straightforward, um say what needs to be said. So mattering isn’t just about saying,
“Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything’s fine.” Mattering means saying actually you have a problem here. So in relationships as
well like this is a boundary and boundaries are saying you matter me to
me enough that I need to say this is how
how this relationship needs to be conducted and that can be um a c customer business
one where you you need to pay your invoice in time or I’m actually going to cease trading or a uh you know like if
you’re co-founders or something you know how do you build that yeah so that that’s where that was um
but in terms of meditation I think that trust
so I have to I tested the dharma a long time with a lot of practice and I did it
you know as one of my teachers said Wendy is a testament to practice cuz I
was so angry and everything and really horrible a lot of the time. A fiveletter
word starting with B was not an uncommon term that people used about me. But I
practiced and I practiced and I practiced and I applied it and I applied and applied it. And so
the end result was that I tested the theory that the Buddha said, “This is
what’s going to work.” And I went, “Okay, give it a go.” And does it work? Yes. In a way, the dharma
I I tested the dharma to see if it worked. Field tested. Kick the tires. Yes.
Exactly. Did you just use it? Did you just use phrased? No. No. The bike tires. You can kick
bike tires, too. Just Great. Great. Great. Thank you.
So, yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, I’m raving on. No, it’s it’s it’s it’s a really good
point. So when we talk about this, we also talk about selfrust too. That’s another huge layer of this. And um
before I get to that, I just want to throw it out here to kind of a a bigger more spiritual
wider topic. Then we I was talking more on a personal level, you know, working individual basis and from a kind of from
a almost a ground where, you know, um should I interact with this person or
not? You know, there’s also the thing where what if you’re a parole officer? Can I trust this person to be in society
around? I mean that’s a kind of a really extreme example but when we talk about kind of more spiritual things uh and
maybe it’ll sound a little bit too newagy here but it’s almost something like trusting in let’s just frame it in
Buddhist terminology maybe uh trusting in that things don’t happen randomly
that there’s an intentionality um cause and effect you know the laws of karma
that you know that there is it’s not like a cosmic justice or something it’s just that there is
laws in the universe so to speak that you know that that have to be kind of obeyed and that work and even though you
can’t really prove it with science or math you can take it on faith and then road test and field test it um and see
if it works so in that there’s a kind of faith that goes along with trust trust
in faith um there’s a old suture I’m almost free associating here the
probably am trust in mind or faith mind. But so it’s that
I was talking about this with somebody the other day also on a on a deep core level if we can know that things are
okay meaning that uh in a way
I guess this comes along with fear too. if we’re if we’re okay and especially with things not being okay. So I’m
talking here more about equinimity I think you know so the the notion that um
there’s certain things that we’re going to have to face in life old age sickness death um you know self-responsibility
and loss so so how do
yeah I don’t know where I’m going with this but in a sense you know things are out of whack and there is dooka and at
At the same time, I to be okay with that and not be overwhelmed and and um
distraught about the way of the world and how things are and that um it’s if
I’m a fundamentally okay with things then there can be a courage and a kind
of self-confidence that with the right trainings and teachings and support that
we’ve got we can get through this and we’ve we’ve made it up to this point and we’re doing the best we can up to this
point. So, in in that sense, kind of trust that there’s some kind of the order and goodness in the world, too.
So, I I I’m stumbling in the dark when I’m trying to put words to what what I’m saying here, but I think this notion of
trust, too, and how when some of that is lacking, it can kind of lead to sadness
and um kind of discouragement and um maybe some people even have distrust
with the world. I mean, some people start with like everything sucks. Everybody sucks all the time. Well, that
would be a hell realm if it was like that, you know, but sometimes it does feel like that. Other times everything
seems to be going okay, you know. So, I’m I’m going on a little bit here, but I I think these are some of the things I
think of when I think about trust. Okay. So, just one thing, M. Reed 1747,
a regular listener. So lovely to hear from you. has said, “Hi Josh, hi Wendy. We’ll listen later today. Busy ATM.” So,
thank you very much for Thank you for checking in. Absolutely. Very cool. Appreciate it. So nice. Okay, so here we go. You know,
here’s somebody who um I guess she sort of is she’s part of
our little regular regular thing and how lovely that is. So to me
there’s something about the trust in the she matters to us. There is something here and I think you
were describing there before about somebody who feels very disillusioned and um in French the word is despis you
know to have lost hope despair desp
you have lost that there is a trust that others
um that you matter to other people. I think that is at the essence of that
what you’re describing there and trust
from a meditation and I and I think that one of the things about
meditation is that you as you meditate and you have time to reflect and your
mind goes from being this tight mind into a broader mind you can see yourself in the context and you can go oh It’s me
who’s being an idiot here. And I can see how actually
more things fit together. And it’s not that they were against me, which is this has been my my own journey, but that
actually and and they don’t trust me. It’s actually that I’m behaving in a way
that is they’re not sure how to interact with me and maybe I’m not trustworthy
actually. So go back to your other one. So I think there’s something about when
you meditate and you meditate regularly and you study the dharma and the texts
that you start to see yourself more clearly
and not necessarily positively but better with more clarity.
that allows you to recognize that
uh to take a broader picture and to become more trustworthy because I think in your case before where you’re saying
is this person trustworthy are they going to trick me whatever sincerity
that question actually says that that person’s worldview is quite small and
tight and it’s about them. Whereas I think somebody who you trust
instantly is somebody who you have a sense that they have a larger
view of their world. There’s some experience, energetic experience you’re
getting from that. That’s that’s what I think. Oh, that’s brilliantly put, Wendy. Yes,
it’s um because we we can I think a lot of people that are can tune in fairly easy. That’s a good gauge. If they’re
mostly self-concerned, right, it’s a very narrow what’s in it for me, you know, what can I get out of this all the
time? Well, then that’s yeah, that’s the compared to someone that has a more broader view and this is where ethical
things come. Um, and and I will mention though that I would disagree a little
bit about when you say, “Oh, it’s me that’s being idiot.” I I I get the notion, but I sorry to reframe and maybe
this is too cliche to reframe it this way, but I would just say wisdom is lacking in that moment, you know, and as
far you you touched on behavior. Now, this is a really important point. When we notice behavior sometimes in others,
I think uh I can’t speak. So if I can’t put it in a box and I don’t understand it, then I tend to I I don’t know what
to do with this, right? So then it turns to I guess it’s not not get um maybe
not having the trust there, but it’s not so much as okay, this this person is a
fundamentally untrustworthy individual. It’s just that I don’t I don’t know what to do with this behavior. I haven’t seen
this flavor. there’s something about it that might raise a flag and I don’t know what to do with it. So, it’s not so much
that I don’t trust it, it’s just that my wisdom is not there enough to know what
to do with it, how to view it, and how to respond to, you know what I mean? Um, and yeah, and I think this is um pros
and cons for conformity and behaving in certain ways. So, you know, on the upside, everybody kind of recognizes and
they know what to do with it. On the downside, you know, we can have very kind of gray hive mind societal
structures. We can have very bland cultures. I think we can have auton
automatons and people that are very easily controlled. Not that it always goes handinhand with that, you know, but
these are some of the things that like to point out around uh that the point you made.
Yeah. And societal um uh cohesion, you know. So I think um you know at least in
America these these people that still use the paper money it says in God we trust right. So but it is a type of
trust because at the end of the day all those are pictures of dead presidents on a piece of paper but we all kind of
agree have a social agreement that we’re going to use those pieces of paper and
be able to use things with them. So we trust that the other person will honor
that obligation. You know, it seems ridiculous to frame it that way because it’s just so almost automatic in
society, right? But at the end of the day, that’s really what it is. If that trust that the other person isn’t going
to honor that and use that or it’s going to be backed by something else or enforced by something else then yeah and
yeah if people didn’t trust each other there it would be like I think caveman times where it would just be kind of
every interaction do I have to kill this person or am I going to assault them or you know um you know whatever I don’t
want to go any further in that so there’s just yeah and we I think we take this for granted sometimes um how kind
of civilized in some senses um the people we we meet with at least in on
that such a fundamental level where we don’t have to you know vet somebody on that level every time because it’s just
absolute lawlessness like old westerns in you know in America or something
where there’s just shootouts every day or you know Yeah. So I that line in God we trust I
believe that only came in in the 50s or the 60s. It’s very very recent. It
wasn’t there until I’m pretty sure it was somebody post war
and who was clearly very devout and a president and wanted it in. And it was a
president that was there I think for four terms which is after that they decided okay we’ve got to make this so
nobody can run for more than two. So it was it was that one. I can’t I have a
feeling it was that one. Yes. And I and I know I I know the president you’re talking about. I’m blanking on the name now. And this is
this is sad. You know, here American should know more American history than than Australian, but it’s not a competition. And yeah, so I yeah, that’s
that’s it’s it is a really interesting thing to have that. And it people, you know, wonder about that quite a bit. Um
these things and I think we’d have to go into some philosophy to get more into that. So,
Mhm. So, um, now you’ve lived in a couple of countries now in a few different
countries and you’ve been in Denmark quite a lot. You’re back in the US now. And
so, when you meet somebody you don’t know and you’re in they’re from a different culture, it doesn’t feel like
they fit or something, maybe you give a bit more leeway because it doesn’t you
go, “Ah, they don’t come from here, so I can give them a bit more leeway.” So the word outlandish
actually comes from outland. So also which is a foreigner.
So I think there is something about is this person trustworthy.
And I think racism segregation is this idea that comes from contamination. So
we had to medically segregate black people from white people because they were more diseased. That’s where that
whole thing came from. So even though you would give your babies to them and you would have wet nurses and like the
whole logic of it was completely ludicrous. So you can see how this is completely numb like stupid idea like
the whole concept is absolutely
dafted but you’ve lived now in different countries and so tell me about
monasteries in different cultures and different Buddhist group groups and Denmark and just how
how have you experienced trust across different cultures.
It’s a good question. It’s just I would say I’m not really qualified to answer this on a broader scope because I it is
kind of a narrow uh thing, you know, and I think um it seems that xenophobia
comes in here too of racism because what I feel and maybe I could be wrong, maybe
this is just my own view that a lot of times it’s not so much racist as xen xenophobia meaning that this is
something new. I don’t know how to behave or respond in this situation. I have no reference point. This is not how
I see myself and people I know and I don’t know what’s going on here and I I
don’t know what to do and and and what my place is in this. I think that plays a huge role too. Maybe it’s just me
who’s more mentally oriented that sees that. But what you say about uh giving like the benefit of the doubt and being
open and I think that obviously goes both ways and this is kind of the golden rule, right? because that’s how I would
want other people to treat me too, you know. So there needs to be almost this
kind of un not unnatural but out of the ordinary
openness in a sense. Um, for me, I think now some people do the opposite where
they kind of close down and protect themselves, but for me, I kind of I feel that I am the opposite. Like I have to
open myself up even more than I normally would. And it’s it’s not really showing
Oh god, this goes into so much selfing, right? So, but I think um
yeah, selfing’s great. Like I’m always because I think if you don’t talk about your own experience, I think it’s
theoretical and then I think it turns into kind of like, you know, nice in theory, but where is the practice, you
know? Absolutely. You got to kind of work with your own practice. That’s why it’s your experience which is central.
Sorry about cross talking, but yeah. No, no, it’s it’s great. It’s a it’s a really good point. That’s right. And so it this is kind of our relative life.
And so I went from one point in my life to being like uh socially awkward and
socially anxious to now the other extreme where sometimes I’m so
comfortable in certain situations people are suspicious because they’re like why is this guy so open and comfortable um
he should be have a little bit of nervousness and anxiety you know what I mean? And so yeah I wonder about that
myself. It’s just because I really think um look at my I don’t have much of a
fear level and courage level but then I also kind of trust in instincts and intuition like if I really sense someone
is not a good fit for me or maybe even might be dangerous then I address it right away I I don’t shy away from it
and then I will make make distance usually most of the time you know right away. So trusting kind of our um
intuition and BS detector and gauge of that and just people that I’m interested
in and um that so this is where friendliness is just the meta like the
the translation unstoppable friendliness. So people, you know, it it seems to repel
people that that don’t um have our best interest in mind in in a way, you know
what I mean? It’s it it kind of it kind of I think it brings out something in the other person as well. you know, if
they can sense that kind of I have the best interest at mine or at least friendly and mean no harm whatsoever, it
does make it a lot easier compared to in the past when I wasn’t keeping, you know, precepts. And, you know, I think
people kind of either unconsciously or in their body can sense whether somebody’s, you know, kind of safe or
not or could can be safe around. So as far as like on social levels though I I
think one of the things that helps is being generally interested in the culture and the person at least
initially you know I think everybody almost in as long as I have enough resources and time everybody like 10
minutes of her attention and you know to be I think it’s one of my skill sets or
strong suits is I can usually find something that I’m interested in you know with someone together at least for
like 10 minutes. So, I think the more I can try to connect with someone, the better. And um as far as now the greater
cultures go, I’m just I’m just fascinated. You should hear Wendy and I um off uh offscreen uh really talk raw
and unfiltered about um some things in England. And I just I’m I’m grateful
because yeah, Wendy’s been there. She knows some of the things. So for all the good, bad, otherwise, and just
quirkiness and all the colorfulness of uh I think English culture, it’s just
it’s it’s it’s it’s a lot of it’s great. A lot of it’s frustrating. Um but it definitely is um a good practice for me
and I feel it’s a it’s it’s a fairly decent spot for the dharma. Otherwise, I wouldn’t keep going back like I have
today. So, it’s it’s um and then coming from like a new country like in America where it’s a basically an experiment
here, you know, it’s it’s lots of still weird crazy stuff going on which is fascinating in its own right sometimes.
But then you go to the old world like Europe where things are very kind of established and this is how we do things
here. This is how it’s done. This is how we are. This is how they are. you kind of know where you stand a little bit
easier than in America where people are kind of jockeying u to to to fit in or
make sense of a lot of things and the whole world is looking at them are looking at the states to kind of figure
out what the heck is this what what’s going on here with this and what you know um so it’s kind of a spectacle in
the states sometimes um I mean that’s everywhere so I don’t know I’m throwing a lot of things at the wall here maybe
you can help focus me a little bit more and then I will ask you kind of the same things too because you’ve been way more
places than I have and lived more places than I have. So I’m fascinated in hearing your response to this too.
So just going back to the question which is trust and meditation Q&A
which is um how do we understand ourselves in
different contexts? How do we understand ourselves according to our identity of nationality
which is you know I’m in the US now and I was and and I’ve been in the UK and
you know all this is what you’re saying and uh trusting yourself and that when
you’re in a new context actually can you trust yourself because it makes you aware that the structures
around you that create you whoever you is and we know it’s not fixed.
We become aware of how much you uh me I
is in response to the relationship with the culture and other people and expected
behaviors. So um the
so when you’re in another country at some level you can really let go and you go I don’t care. So not part of that
system because those things but it can also become I I found living in England
actually extremely lonely because the things that made me me which is being
outgoing and chatty and friendly and emotional and all those things are
contrary to the cultural landscape of what what will people think which is a
sort of this constant social barrier And and you know it’s like well you
could ask them what they think and they won’t tell you but if you want to know what they think just ask them which is
contrary to the whole English thing where you’re supposed to somehow get it by osmosis. This is my experience. It’s
all done by things. So in terms of trust
and and then it’s like and sometimes you’ve been in I don’t know if you’ve had this experience. I’ve been in a relationship where I was kind of nuts. I
was like, I wasn’t me. And people would say to me at that time, you just weren’t you.
Or after I se in in my separation and divorce from a previous relationship, my
marriage, I wasn’t you. You you were you
who were you? I couldn’t. And I I think we forge these kind of
relationships with who I am
in our sort of in that context. And in fact, when you undergo therapy, you’re
changing the nature and the relational, the way that you relate. And as you say,
people can sense that. people sense whether you’re safe or unsafe because you’re you’re actually working with that
and owning your own pain. And when you own your own pain and your own selfishness, it doesn’t fritter out onto
the other person because the other person you sort of feel like that person’s got you in check, you know,
they’re they’re in check kind of thing. And so you can trust them in that way.
So just in terms of Yeah. So self
no self and how that’s embodied in emod yeah
yeah embodied within the culture is really clear about what is the
correct protocol and who am I and some people find that tremendously liberating a lot of people come to Australia and go
ah it it’s like so free in comparison to England but others come and they go ah
I’m it’s going to be like this and this and this and this and actually they hate it and they go, “Oh, it was awful. I
hated Australia.” So I’m, you know, I’m no like there’s plenty of flaws with
Australia. I’ve lived abroad. I’ve lived here and I can tell you I know Australia’s got a ton of problem and I’m
in Queensland and there’s a ton of problem and I’ve come lived in Sydney and there’s a ton of problem. Like I know I’m not s of stareyed about all the
problems. It just works for me. That’s that’s all it means. So I think you know wherever we go there
we are and yeah so so that just going back to trust
anyway I don’t know where I’m going. No, no, no. This so much of the the path is paradox, you know, and I I experienced
that as well. On one hand, it’s so completely liberating. Say I can just use this as an excuse. Oh, I’m just a
dumb American foreigner, you know, and so yeah, oh, okay, everybody understands that, right? So, yeah, in in a way, it’s
it’s liberating and free, but then it gets to be like, okay, you get into certain social interactions and okay,
how do I play this? You know, how do I behave? You know, where’s my place here? How do I fit in? you know,
so this Yeah. So, in some sense, you know, in America, that helped me a lot to to know that what other people think
about me is none of my business, but it it it don’t I shouldn’t say it’s a national pastime in England because I’ve
I’ve come up with a lot of these, but you know, it it Yeah, it’s something about that. Now what what has really put
things in perspective and um I think the the emotional charge of this has been
diffused a lot for me because I do spend a lot of times in monasteries. So it is
kind of like a universal universality that there’s of course there’s different flavors of the dharma wherever you move
it around the globe, right? But at the core, there seems to be a common thread
that most people if they’re not on the same page, they’re at least interested in that page. And so that kind of gives
a common ground that I think it goes deeper and broader and is brighter than
the kind of worldly overlays and winds that that blow through this. So that I I
don’t know if I could do it without that, right? It would be completely different. And yeah, I don’t know if I would have such a huge support and
ground for that. And and then when we talk uh the things that Wendy mentioned too, this it’s meditation is a great
container to to see all these things happen happening in our relationship to
ourselves and the things that are unfolding in ourselves and how we’re holding them, what we’re picking up,
what we can put down. you know this this notion of trust I think goes um hand
inhand with faith um on the path right faith and confidence too selfrust trust
in the Buddha and his teachings you know uh and the in the dharma so and then the
trust when we have our teacher you know kind of faith and trust and confidence goes along with this self-confidence and
in our ability to do the practice you know so yeah these are really I think
fundamental When we talk about the um the five faculties and wisdom balances that out. If we get you know too
imbalanced in any of these then they kind of everything gets out of whack. But the kind of wisdom will balance
that. You can check it with wisdom and then we have energy and concentration and mindfulness that kind of ties the
whole thing together monitors the whole thing. So yeah, these are these this trust, this confidence, this faith is is
I think paramount and very important when we we go to kind of um kind of
gauge our pra gauge meditation practice but also keep it balanced and progressing, you know. So uh in a
healthy way and by that also I mean not too much clinging and comparing and
striving uh un unhelpfully too. So
yeah, there is something. So a couple of things with with the word wisdom. I’m always a bit tricky about the way that
people use it because often that means it’s sort of to do with how much knowledge you’ve acquired and you have a a presence. But what we’re talking about
here is the capacity to see that everything is interdependent. That’s all wisdom means in this context. That’s the
way I always interpret um emptiness and and interdependence. Yeah. I I would
also say say though too it it’s kind of the the lived experience from real life
choices and experience of things that lead towards suff uh away from suffering instead of towards suffering too you
know um so you know this you never thought of that so it’s like actually it’s kind of
um yeah we have information we have knowledge but then wisdom I feel is like
um is it takes it draws on that but it’s it’s not theoretical whole it’s embodied
um I think knowing in action and something that can relieve suffering
just by by um knowing it kind of in our own experience and from our heart you
know um that’s one way I look also at it as well now I’m going to have to look this up because I don’t trust you you see that
definition and and then nosis is another thing too so maybe I’m talking more of nosis than
wisdom OTS. Yes. Yeah. I would love a textbook example if it’s a good good
point. Why not, you know? All right. All right. Um, so give me a second. I’m I’m I use uh the um a common
big popular AI thing to ask all these question. I know it’s very unethical on multiple levels.
No, no, no. I find it Yeah. really handy. So, just give me a second. You talk, Josh, while
I while I put it into the chat. And I didn’t even read the the official um
introduction here, but I I’ll spare it this time. See if we can get through without it. And but I did list some
things here like confidence, courage, and we’ve talked about that. Openness, honesty, we’ve touched on that. Safety
we touched on that too about how that’s um with in trust and I mentioned
intuition. Friendship, we talked about loving kindness and unstoppable friendliness. Ethics, Wendy just touched
on that. and societal functionality. And we’ve also touched on kind of their opposites and the whole spectrum of
these two. So yeah, we did cover um quite a bit of what I wanted to cover. So I’m I’m glad for that. So what is the
definition for Okay. All right. So in in Sanskrit, in
Tibetan, it’s um in pari it’s pa. So it’s nothing to
do with being clever. So it it’s not to do with I think what you were describing. What it says is wisdom is
the direct seeing of things as they truly are. Buddhist wisdom is the clear
non-conceptual understanding of impermanence ana unsatisfactoriness duka
and non-self anata. It means perceiving that all conditioned phenomena are constantly changing inherently
unreliable and lack any independent enduring essence. In other words, wisdom
is seeing through the illusion of permanence, ownership and separateness. Nothing to do with your embodied
experience of you know this is the thing and and behaving. So that’s
I was thinking about application of wisdom. So yes, please go ahead. All right. Okay. So wisdom is
experiential not intellectual. You can study the scriptures for decades and not have wisdom. You can be illiterate and
yet through meditation and ethical living awaken deep insight. Buddhist wisdom arises when the mind is calm,
ethical and clear enough to see reality directly without distortion from
craving, aversion or ignorance. Wisdom works together with compassion. Pa and
karuna compassion are two wings of the same bird. Wisdom without compassion becomes cold and aloof. Compassion
without wisdom becomes sentimental or exhausting. Together they lead to liberation. Nibbana or nirvana. So
wisdom cuts through ignorance which is avida. Ignorance is the root cause of
suffering. The mistaken belief that I exist as a separate lasting entity who
can possess or control reality. Wisdom uproots this delusion. When the mind
sees clearly that there is no solid self here. The clinging that causes suffering
naturally ceases. Three levels of Buddhist wisdom. The Buddhist texts
often describe pa developing in three progressive states. Suta maya pa wisdom born of hearing or
studying learning the dharma. Chintamaya pa wisdom born of reflection. So
reasoning and contemplation and banana pa wisdom born of meditation direct
insight through experience. Only the third is considered true liberating wisdom. In short, Buddhist wisdom is the
direct experiential realization of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and
non-self. The clear seeing that dissolves ignorance and end ends
suffering. Beautiful direct experiential. So I got that right. But yes, the three
characterist three characteristics of duka nicha nata. And yes, it is the
direct antidote to ignorance or delusion in in the sense of the the three unh
wholesome roots, right? And really the other unh wholesome roots can’t be there without ignorance or delusion either
because when there’s wisdom then it kind of cuts off u the the chance for greed
and ill will to be there. So yeah, it’s it’s kind of hard to just have pure ill
will without also ignorance too, right? And and in same way with greed. So yeah,
it is kind of at the root the core and that’s what wisdom can address. And the big question for me now is how indepth
granular comprehensive full and complete does our wisdom have to be in order to
gain full realization, enlightenment. But we can see in our own experience that really any amount of wisdom is is a
huge relief to our suffering and you know so yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I I was
just sort of thinking as you were saying, I was thinking about a conversation that I had with my husband
yesterday after meditation. And I was recounting a conversation that
I had had with somebody in the computer shop because I could no longer get my
computer guy to come and fix and I was asking for somebody else. And and I realized that I had been a bit
uh what’s the word blamy or I can’t remember the correct word that I used but I was
and and there are many reasons for that but I was a bit superior and a bit pushy
and not really and and a bit blamy and I said to my husband well I see that I do
that with you as well and I actually don’t like that about myself and he went yes
so I think that trust comes from recognizing ognizing that you too are as
fallible as anybody else. And I think that is actually a core
feature of trust that something about
we’re all in this together. It’s not I’m separate from uh something
there. And it’s Yeah, totally. And it’s uh it gets muddied sometimes because what
you’re talking about from what I understand a lot of times and I at least I see it in myself that um there’s also
a seed there of I care about this and I want it to be very good. you know, it’s
just how we go about it and how we do it that that is the really is um I often
neglect that part because I want to kind of jump ahead to saying, “Okay, I want this to be good. I want you to be good
with it and I want us all to be competent and on our game and, you know,
doing things skillful and well.” Okay, that’s I I kind of jump to the end goal there and I forget how I go about
getting there. So that’s where the rub is. I I’m kind of more goal oriented and
uh principal oriented and then I for kind of forget the heart sometimes, you know, and that’s and if that’s, you
know, so yeah, we we all have something. So what do we do? What do we do about that? So we can also acknowledge the
more skillful things in that approach, but also be honest like Wendy was
saying, you know, okay, you know, that’s probably if I was on the other end, if I, you know, if I was in their shoes,
how would I like it if they were, you know, going about it that way, you know? So yeah, so I think there’s it’s a mix
and a lot of times it’s not so simple and straightforward and there there’s a lot of mixa or you know light and dark
um skillful unskillful and I I think yeah so we can assess even a bigger
picture and give ourselves some slack as well but also keep our feet to the fire when they need to be to the fire and
hold oursel to um you know skillful action and part of that is is being kind
to ourselves too and and forgiving to ourselves as well, I think. Yeah. Well, to me, it’s not about being
forgiving to myself. It’s about it’s there’s something about seeing that I I
am human in the same way my husband’s human and I
too am capable of the same mistakes as everybody else. So there’s some there’s
some capacity to witness myself in the ways that I witness others as within a
context. And I was just thinking about what you were saying about the gold orientation.
And just before we jumped online, I was reading an article in the conversation which I really like. It’s a I I really
like that website. And I know I’m not supposed to be promoting, but I’m promoting because I think it’s fantastic. And um I have no affiliation.
LA but and it was about actually the role
of um the Protestant work ethic and
Vber’s kind of ideas of the Protestant work ethic and how that has been
co-opted into capitalism that my worthiness is only according to my
productivity and efficiency and how that has been It’s you can sort
of hear that in the capitalist framework and how it becomes a hollow experience
because we are not looking at the relationship part of it. We are only focused on what’s the outcome and then
we become hollow and and lonely inside when we are only focused on the outcome
because we forget that we too are in this relationship together
and and we lose that trust actually. Yeah. Go. It’s a really good point and
it and it further distorts wise effort too because then we look at things like
this like why do I want to you know be like that and waste all my time and energy for something that means nothing
and that is pointless and then the danger is then to become complacent and
to not then use uh wise action and wise effort when it’s needed and how it
should actually be applied for our welfare and happiness and benefit. So, I just wonder why we’re riffing on, you
know, um the the kind of the misuse of that or the appropriate misappropriation of that or whatever. So, yeah, I really
agree with that. And we can again uh a great way to I know we’re been focused
more outwardly well but yes and no interreationally. So this is how we’re
relating internally with our own internal voice, how we’re kind of seeing ourselves and relating to ourselves and
even the meditation object itself, you know. Um, and then when we lo if we’re doing a more object-oriented meditation,
if we lose that, how do we relate to ourselves? We do we beat ourselves up or
we are how do we come back to the object? How do we continue the meditation? you know, um how do we use
this to support our practice and uh strengthen it in in a good way in
instead of uh the ways that we were talking about there. So yeah.
Yeah. So getting back to meditation and trust,
there is something about how can you trust yourself
um or developing a sense of trust in yourself
through meditation. Oh, that’s a good one. Really good.
All right, you you go, Ruth. You go, Josh. Well, another thing I want to talk about with with confidence is we look at the
before I turn it back in. Um I was I’ve mentioned this several times before. I was confusing um being egotistical with
self-confidence. Not the same thing. Obviously, the examples I had around me for being self-confident, they were so
super egotistical. And I thought I no wonder I don’t have any confidence. I
don’t want to be like them. But it’s not the same thing. So what um it what what
it can do is you can build trust internally by by looking at your
practice too and saying okay I can do this. There’s benefits to it that for
for one thing first it can let my guard down completely. I’m in a safe space. It’s
just me. I don’t have to perform. I don’t have to please anybody. I don’t
have to live up or accomplish anything. I can just sit here and be a human being, you know. And so allowing things
to to clear out and then that yeah, I don’t even have to prove myself, do
anything special at all. And so, yeah, I think when that falls away, there’s
maybe there’s more of a natural sense that, you know, I’m here. I’m doing the best I can. I’ve
made it to this point so far. I’ve survived everything up to this point.
So, there’s got to be something about that. reflecting on those we admire, the
goodness that we’ve shown uh others, and the goodness we’ve shown ourselves too.
Um there’s a kind of um a self-confidence that comes in that that that there is goodness in the world and
that there’s a benefit for from it for myself and others. It’s kind of inspiring to um yeah to act on. I guess
another question to ask here, why wouldn’t I trust myself? You know where is the I we can look at it more
cataphhatic if that’s the right term here. It’s kind of a religious term of uh aphatic and cataphhatic. This is more
of a Christian where you say what God is or what God isn’t. Cat meaning like um
what uh what is in the way of why wouldn’t there be trust here you know um
also what what am I trusting in my own experience and what don’t I trust? One more theoretical, what would it be like
if I couldn’t trust like my view of reality and how maddening that would be,
you know? Um, and where what kind of abilities am I not trusting, you know,
that that I do have and and can I be okay with where I fall short and where
can I strengthen weaknesses and where can I celebrate strengths too?
I don’t know. I I threw a lot out there. Hopefully that wasn’t too watered down, convoluted new age stuff. Some of it
Well, what you’re describing there, if I’ve if I’ve got this, is how do we
trust ourselves? And and the answer in that one is,
well, why don’t we? And the reason we don’t is because sometimes we’re idiots. And I know you’re a bit like, you know,
you want to turn it into another phrase, but I think sometimes it’s good to say, well, I’m an numpty. You know, I I
didn’t behave as my best self. There’s no twist. It’s it’s the behavior. It’s the behavior. We we’ve done things that
aren’t that aren’t good. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, and we’re we’re all like unskillful left,
right, and center. And I think it’s okay to say, “Oh man, I was a bit dafted there.” Yeah. Own it. Yeah.
Yeah. Totally own it. And I think there’s something nice about being relaxed about that. So when I say I’m an idiot, I’m not just kind of giving
myself a whole lot of grief, you know, it’s not a sort of a oh flagagillation, self flagagillation. I’m not doing that
at all. It’s all just like, oh wow, okay. It’s it’s actually got sincerity in its in
its core. And I think sometimes when we do this switching over into a kind of a
dharma language, feel embodied and owned. It just is fake and we can
lipstick on a peg. Lipstick on a peg. Totally totally there. Totally there.
So I think that’s that’s that. Hey Josh, I’ve just seen the clock.
It’s one minute before the hour. All right. So, what do you want to say
before we wrap up? I just left it there because I’m like, “Oh, look at that. The time’s coming.” Yeah, time time gets away from us
sometimes. So, yeah, these are I think we’ve covered uh plenty of ground on this. I’m I’m very satisfied with um
trusting that we’ve done an okay job here and that yeah that our trust will
continue to grow and that we’ll find even we’ll find value um in our kind of
faith and trust as well and I think where we even started with this was that
we both recognized that this was a big thing going on in society right now maybe a lack of trust and we didn’t even
touch on that but I don’t I don’t even know if it needs touched ing on because because it seems fairly apparent I guess
but yeah why don’t you wrap this one up Wendy then? Well I think there is there is a sense
that no one is keeping an eye out for my welfare. I don’t matter because I have become a number you know in the
capitalist who’s going through that vaporish thing you know I am just a dollar value I am a data point I there
is some there is some truth to that and my employment and my housing conditions have deteriorated in this post since you
know in the last 20 30 40 years that that is I think true
so I think there is as a result less trust because actually
you know, as an ex-boyfriend said, he said, “Well, you don’t trust me. Trust me.” And I was telling this to a friend and he said, “Well, yeah, he wasn’t
trustworthy.” So, I think it’s not surprising, you know, that there isn’t trust. It’s actually that governments
have not been behaved in ways that were trustworthy. And and so, yeah, of course, that’s I’ll
end it there on that fun note. And and only you know, I my favorite saying is
slogan. And it’s a Tibetan slogan. It says, “Of the two witnesses, trust the principal one.” And that means only you
know when you’re kidding yourself and only you know what is the right course
of action. No one can do it for you. So on that one that to me sums up trust
100%. Beautifully put and I will just leave it there and encourage us all to trust
ourselves deeper and deeper and for good reasons too. All right. Bye everybody.
Have a good month. Bye. Likewise.
Integrating Presence 
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