In this thirty-fourth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into the various aspects of Metta / Loving-kindness ranging from the more common place to those that may be not as well known and the many aspects in-between this boundless, immeasurable state. Share whatever you’d like about Metta in the comments or just watch to help strengthen your own practice
Some of our past chats related to metta:
- https://integratingpresence.com/2024/06/23/relational-practice-meditation-q-a-with-wendy-nash-22/
- https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/19/heart-practices-meditation-q-a-with-wendy-nash-06-live-at-1am-central-8am-central-european-time-feb-23-2023/
- https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/05/meditation-q-a-with-wendy-nash-05-love-brahmaviharas-edition-live-at-1am-central-8am-central-european-time-02-09-2023/
- (I also mention a recent live talk “Ill-will, Intent and Consent Regarding Metta”) https://www.youtube.com/live/iFA_PUltzxU
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Playlist of past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Aspects Of Metta (Loving-kindness) | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #34
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Welcome. This is Josh Integrating Presence and Wendy Nash is back again with me. Wendy, what’s up?
Well, just before you came on air, I got half an hour ago, I got an email from my
accountant. It’s tax time. And she said, “Here are the queries that we have. You
need to send this more information.” And I went, “Ah.” And I tried to get everything done. And I just I just need
to get that one little thing done and I’ll do it after the show.
Yeah. I know how frustrating that is cuz I had to file a extension for my taxes and I finally got that done. Excuse me.
And what a relief that is to finally get that done. I know what it’s like to have that last little piece and then just
like I’m going to get it done. So you have that to look forward to after this. Do you My voice is Go ahead.
Husky. Husky. So just waking up here I So I’m here on Gubby Gubby country in Queensland in
Kabula and I wanted to know whether in so in Australia everybody has to submit
a tax return every year. I don’t know if that’s the case in the US. You know I mean basically if you’re
alive you need to pay taxes. Um you know I think it’s if you owe taxes then you
need to file them and pay them. There are instances where you don’t. Like for
me, I’m a unique case right now because um I’m not making enough uh money what
I’m doing now to to make a living from it. However, because I have a business,
quote unquote, you know, or actually technical business, I have to file. So, I have to spend all this time, all my
time collecting everything that I’ve done, you know, with my website, with
online, with with training. And I have to report it all. Even though I don’t owe any money, I still have to. And then
I I don’t want to do this. So I pay someone luckily I have someone that’s um fairly affordable to compile all the
proper tax forms. I mean it’s enough for me just to go through gather all the information and submit it to them and
kind of have it worked out so where they’re not spending so much time and understand all the different things to
report. So to me it’s it’s kind of ridiculous. Um but you know and then the Danish tax system is it’s really unique.
It’s really complex but I think it’s really efficient too. So I don’t know enough about it to speak too much about
that but they say what the death and taxes are the only certainties in life really kind of a cliche but uh yeah
well in in Australia most people you have an accountant and they find you’ve
done research and it’s like you use an accountant and you actually get a better return. So most people use an
accountant. In Australia, everybody has to submit um a tax return except it
might not be for people with disabilities. So So we have some responses here. Okay.
Gamers team has says, “Hi bro, how are you?” Well, even there’s
bro gal. So brah brah. Yeah. Um
being inappropriate. I know. I mean, uh, this is guys talk to each other. Not really appropriate here,
but anyway. Hey, um, you know, if the spirit’s good, hey, how’s it going? U Melissa Reed chimed in, I think, on the
last one, and she said she enjoyed it and made we made some good points. Looking forward to the next one. So,
that’s cool. So, let’s let’s jump into it here. And, uh, taxes or no taxes. And
I I’m pretty sure in Denmark the the scat the the Danish t which is interesting because they also call their
loved ones scat, but it’s also the name of the tax system which I think is brilliant by the way.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s I think it’s pretty much everybody can just go online and do it
themselves unless it’s really complex. So, it’s kind of the same way in America. If you don’t have too much, I
mean, if you’re just an employee, you have one tax form, I think, and not a very complicated finance finances, then
it it is fairly simple and you can do it yourself. But, I mean, a lot of people do opt to have either a full
professional accountant or like me, I have a it’s almost like a financial adviser in and a tax filer. So, so it’s
not a full-blown CPA certified public accountant. That’s really kind of hardcore, but you know that you’re going
to get kind of But yeah, so this is somewhere in between. And then you can just actually have a friend who really
likes numbers and know what they’re doing, you know, help you out and file it for you, I guess. Yeah. Hey, we’ve got some responses here. So,
apparently we have an extraordinary number of deductions that you can claim. So, our tax system is really
um overly generous and uh yeah, there’s a lot of conversation about that at the
moment. Sure. Yes, we have some comments. So, Zoom 2944 says, “Hello.” Hello. Back. Gamers
team replied, “You are girl.” So, at least we know it’s a person now, not a um not a bot, which is always nice.
Interesting English, by the way, though. You are girl. Okay. All right. Well, you know, you don’t know where people come from. You know what? It’s
like you don’t speak your Danish is a bit rough and rusty. So, there you go. Well, non-existent, basically. But,
yeah. There you go. So, there you are. Your Danish is the same. And um Mrs. Reed is
hi Wendy, hi Josh. Well, hello Mrs. Reed. Lovely to have you here. And post your questions. We will answer them in
real time. So or any comments. But I love the questions.
It is. And I actually got one the other day when I was doing um a live event on loving kindness. I can bring that in
here too and get uh bounce it off you. Let me read the quick intro I have here. Um, in this 34th installment of the
ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we plan to delve into various aspects of meta loving or
loving kindness, ranging from the more common place to those that may be not as
wellknown and the many aspects in between this boundless immeasurable state. Please join to share whatever you
like about meta or just help strengthen your own practice. So this is um you know I would love to
even go on a retreat to just do in just one second get the screen bigger here. Um to just do meta on a retreat and I’ve
never done one of these to just dedicate entire retreat. I would love to do that. So the the question I got the other day
though I might as well just jump into that since this is a Q&A is um somebody said basically along the lines what
happens if you’re being too passive and people are walking all over you and
Yeah. And so this is um this is what I say all the time. I basically said, well, you know, if you’re being abused,
you have to get out of that situation no matter what. If you stay on the couch or whatever of a friend, but it basically
said, “No, I’m not that. It’s just so then I we talked about boundaries, which is what we talked about in the last
thing, and actually uh being assertive.” So some people really have a hard time like speaking up or a challenging time
speaking up and being assertive while other people are the other way around where they need to dial it down and they
come off too harsh and yeah but it’s for this the more passive it’s about asserting a boundary and then
strengthening it and saying hey you need to respect this boundary or otherwise I can’t you know take other tactics to to
to reinforce that. Yeah. So, so how how do you view this, Wendy? If if someone
feels and and meta kind of gets a bad rap, a loving kindness thing. Oh, people are going to take advantage you. That’s
one of the most common criticisms we hear. I mean, I can respond to that, but I want to hear what you have to say first with it.
Yeah. So, boundaries, I always think about it as if you love a child, do you
let them eat ice cream every day for every meal? And of course, if you love your child, you’re not going to do that.
you create you you know that what is the thing you know they have to eat vegetables and different grains and meat
and all these things to be healthy. So I think that we do know boundaries
instinctively when it comes to that. I think sometimes it can be difficult to know how to
speak up without being aggressive. Um or because I think we we can be quite
anxious about how do we do it and we bottle it up and bottle it up and bottle it up and then finally we say something
and it all comes out wrong because we haven’t said it when it’s a tiny little thing, we’ve said it when it’s like kabang. So I think it’s an a learning
curve to experience and to play with. Personally, that’s what I think. And I
think that um it’s it’s hard sometimes to even know whether
you have whe whether you’re whether you’re in abu in an abusive relationship. So, I was in an abusive
relationship once and it took me 10 years to figure out how abusive it was cuz that it was very subtle and I
thought, “Oh, I can’t say.” It was very subtle abuse. So, and it
made me understand how do people get into abusive relationships and how difficult it is to get out and how I can
be difficult. So, I think um if you are planning to leave an
abusive relationship, I think it’s really important to call the hotlines and the support lines. There are people who do amazing things and they will help
you do that in a safe way because it’s not straightforward. Um, but all that aside,
uh, if you’re if you’re not feeling if you if you don’t know how to respond,
you’re feeling like taken advantage of, how do you know that? It’s not always
straightforward. But I think that often what I do is I
will sit down and meditate and I will say and I will kind of bring it to mind
this problem and I will say to myself internally inquiring very gently what am
I not seeing about this or what needs to be known here or what’s being overlooked
and I find that that often brings up quite a good awareness and then I go Oh,
that’s what’s going on. And once I’ve connected into the emotional,
I guess, gate which is open or merged, I suppose, with the other
person. So, it’s like my shadow is somehow merged with the other person. I can’t distinguish who is me and who is
them, what is my need, what is their need. And so, that often helps reveal,
well, this is me and that is them. And then it’s very clear and straightforward. I’ve been teaching a
friend of mine boundaries with her kids. And that’s that’s quite not quite not
always straightforward because she came from a um quite an aggressive family
system and so she doesn’t want to do that. So she feels mean. But we’ve been working through it. So it’s been really
fun for her to learn and and the kids are heaps happier for it. So that’s what
I would say. You know, this is um this is a really complex topic. You know,
human relationships aren’t always so straightforward, simple, and easy, right? We know we know that. And there’s
so many subtleties involved, so many causes and conditions intertwined. Um
and then, you know, the the communication side too. So, like you’re saying, and if it is somewhat of an
abusive relationship, we know that there can be very um sophisticated mechanisms
of abuse. You know, there’s there’s all kinds of things going on from gaslighting to um you know, um
narcissism. And they don’t always have to be on full blast either. They can be very masterful and they can be very um
clunky. you know, they can be there not all the time. Um, so it is a tough one
and I I would like to echo Wendy’s thing about going inside, asking that question
and sitting with the answer. I found that so helpful in just about every aspect of my life. Um, so you know, we
can do this um outside of our regular formal meditation practice and sometimes it just happens in the formal meditation
practice too, you know. So it is tricky too with um you know am I seeing this
clearly or not and then we start doubting ourselves. So that that can be really dangerous too but we all there
also needs to be a check that I’m not also overreacting and being deliluded either because then I can not only get
them in trouble but myself in trouble too. I think another tip is um knowing
having the wisdom and discernment who to tell and when about it, what what of our friends and how much to tell them and
then you know um and what not to as well because if I’m completely off then I you
know then it might cause more problems than it might get. But if I hesitate when I could, it could be so much easier
on both of us and maybe even other people in in our various circles if I do speak up at the right time to a friend
to to get support to get feedback, you know. So this is why friends are so so important and the this aspect of meta. I
like the uh translation of unstoppable friendliness. It is kind of a it’s a friendliness too. It’s um it’s a
well-wishing. And the other thing I was reflecting on this morning I was doing this practice is um you know the
cultural context that it’s in. So meta in in Denmark to me looks and feels so
um I would say significantly different than when I remember 20 years ago when I was in San Diego, California where you
have a bunch of just like free flowing overt love. Hey man, oh it’s just so
great. Everybody’s so you know warm and loving and and upfront and just
uninhibited. But in Denmark everything um to me it seems so balanced um straightforward
you know like I I it’s it’s like hard to get an inpoint because it’s um I don’t
know I look at more of an aquatous uh e equinimity you know that everything’s
really balanced and it’s also I think important to point out here that loving kindness isn’t the right approach for all situations in life but the
brahavajaras pretty much I find are one of the best ways to to to relate to the
world to to just about any relational aspect. It’s um there’s a flavor of one
of these four that I find appropriate even if it’s kind of just holding them all together at once and I can go we can
go into more about how like each one meets uh whatever situation we’re in. So I just thought these are interesting
things to reflect on. Yeah. So just um Ahmed Amir has uh joined us and says meditation is a form
of prayer for Buddhists. So, I think that’s a statement rather than a question. And I think I I’m not really
one for prayer, so I don’t know what prayer is like for people, but I think it’s certainly a wishing.
I’ I’ve never really It’s I’ve not followed that sort of um belief system
like that. But am I Buddhist? Yes, I am Buddhist. Josh, I think you are Buddhist, too. Is that right?
I may I may as well be one. Uh, I don’t think technically, you know, I kind of weasle out of it, but I do mostly
Buddhist practices and study, so I might as well even though I don’t. Yeah. Um, yeah, it’s you’re a closet Buddhist.
There you go. Pretty much. Yeah. And, uh, he says, “Hello, exclamation
mark.” So, hello back. And it’s funny, uh, here too is I I also got a question. Uh the other question I
got the other day was is is meta kind of a prayer or can I is prayer a form of of
meta? And um and what I said is well anyway did you
have anything else to say on what I said before I go into that Wendy or uh just about Denmark. I read this week
that Denmark does compassion training from for children from I think six to 14
or something like that every week. it’s part of their curriculum and they have
much lower rates of bullying. So, I thought that was super interesting
and I thought, “Oh, well, if I ever run into an education minister, I might just
mention that this is something that happens because imagine you don’t have all those horrible
experiences of um bullying. Imagine it just doesn’t happen.” So, that’s great.
So Ahmed Amir asks, “Have you ever read about Islam?” I have never read so much
about Islam. I have friends who are Muslim, but I and I went to their wedding and and everything, but um it’s
a theistic religion and I have never found that Christianity worked for me. So I can’t see that another uh Abrahamic
religion is going to work for me either. So yeah. So Josh, you Yeah. You said um you said they do a
compassion practice. Is that what you said in Denmark? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I just I I have to I have to kind of
agree here. On one hand, one says, you know, well, maybe people shouldn’t teachers shouldn’t get involved in in in
kind of molding and shaping, you know, um forcing people to do certain practices. But then I’m like, no, wait a
second. Um you’re forced to do a lot of stuff in school anyway. And I wish I would have had less bullying. Just how
it’s it’s so awkward to be an adolescent and in school to begin with. And then when you get bullied on I luckily I
didn’t get too much bullied. I had somebody like slam books out of my hand before you know and in just silliness
like this and throw them on the floor when I was carrying them in the hallway and stuff like that. So I mean it’s just
ridiculous stuff like that. It’s just like you know this is like kind of lose faith in the the human race and stuff
and there’s a whole psychology to to this. But I would I would have to agree with this. you know, anything to improve
um the quality of life that’s authentic and uh someone wants to do it, you know,
and it’s just basic common human decency. I want to go back to this prayer thing in Islam. I actually lived
with um a few guys from um Tunisia when I was in in school. They weren’t really
they were I guess they were technically Muslim, but they weren’t practicing or anything like that. You know what I
mean? Um so that’s that’s my little familiarity. I haven’t actually studied it much. U I think I read like uh oh
there’s one um secret uh sec sectarian uh famous author in a spiritual sense
kamir u what I know I’m blanking on the name now we read no well room is really popular in
Buddhist circles too by the way and I was just going to say that Sufi some of the Sufi teachings I’ve I’ve heard of
too but let me just it go mysticism yeah I mean it’s Islam it’s sort of you know. Yeah, it’s and I think
my understanding is the roomie texts are have been misinterpreted. I think that’s right. Yes, I’ve heard that too. Um, now I want
to say there’s this um I love this really short prayer from Shanti Deva. I think this is in the Tibetan tradition
and uh to me this is I just want to read this real quick because it’s it’s so lovely and it speaks to kind of all the
Brahma vikharas and I guess it’s technically a prayer but yeah usually Buddhists don’t pray and one other thing
I wanted to mention is pretty soon I might be able to talk maybe go on a podcast there’s going to be a huge
Buddhist um a worldwide prayer um u time of prayer or something for world peace
and it’s not a technical thing and I think it’s more in the Vajriana but maybe I’ll be able to say more about
that somebody invited me on to to to talk about a certain huge worldwide event that that may be coming up and I I
that’s about all I can say now before I know what I really need to say about it but okay so this is by Shanti David says
may I become at all times both now and forever a protector of those without
protection a guide for those who have lost their way a ship for those with
oceans to cross. A bridge for those with rivers to cross.
A sanctuary for those in danger, a lamp for those without light, a place of
refuge for those who lack shelter, and a servant to all in need. For as long as
space endures, and for as long as living beings remain. Until then, may I too
abide to dispel the misery of the world. And I’m just like, wow. Um,
I think it’s I think that’s advanced practice, Josh. I think that’s beyond advanced practice.
And, you know, I I don’t want to go too much into this, but those on a bodhic sappa path who want to stay in this
thing, you know, for who knows how ridiculous amounts of long times that are unfathomable.
It it kind of gives me um kind of gives me a fright a little bit. I mean, I
can’t imagine, you know, I don’t know. It’s very admirable. And these are very high-minded, high-hearted things and
lovely. I mean, could you imagine if everybody like had that as their operating system around the I mean, how
much the world would transform. But then again, I I I it’s out of reach for most of us. I mean, you know, I look at that,
I’m just like, oh, wow, what a lovely sentiment. But how practical is that for me and other people? And you know, some
things don’t have to be practical, though. So um so in Tibetan Buddhism I’ve
studied it a little bit and the great masters um the great teachers they say
anybody who is studying Buddhism and looking to be you know aspiring in that
in that way. So it’s not saying so may may I always is not saying I must always
be may I always it’s a it’s a wish a desire and I think we can say well I do
wish that and I try really hard to behave like that but my cat is here and
she’s winging and whining at me and sometimes I’m not always patient so you
know I’m human too so and I think if you if you don’t have joy and lightness and
humility, oh gosh, you’re a boore. So, I think you have to be you just have to be
yourself. This is really important, Wendy. That’s a great notion that this is a kind of an
aspirational in a practice. It’s not a thou shalt not and you fail if you’re not doing it to the certain perfective
degree. And yeah, it’s really important part of this method practice. And yeah I
maybe we’ll um bring in here you know these different flavors and what you talked about there is balancing this out
because yeah if you do kind this rejoicing of muda the other brahma vihara this is uh comes more
light-heartedness and rejoicing and in the happiness part instead of this you know meta is considered a well-wishing
too which I I like it’s just this um wishing for goodness for yourself and others and um yeah so uh you know,
what’s the best way to go about that? And I think another uh aspect that’s really important is authenticity. What
feels real, you know, and there’s some days where it just doesn’t feel right. So, um if we’re doing a practice here,
oops, I got to pop up on my screen. Um you know, what what’s accessible? What’s like what’s feels authentic right now?
And some days um it can be this notion of you know when that um meets kind of
suffering when meant to meet suffering it turns into compassion and sometimes we can’t have it’s just not accessible.
So I like a teacher’s response with this is can I have compassion for the fact
that I can’t have compassion right now. And I love framing it in a consideration. It doesn’t have to be
okay. It either is or isn’t. It’s like can I sometime in the future uh consider
maybe perhaps giving it a thought that it might someday be possible you know
even like that’s a way in. Yeah. So a couple of things I think Ahmed Amir I’m not sure if you’re on the
right one but we’re on this is a Buddhist uh this is a Buddhist Q&A I guess. So happy to answer all your
questions about Buddhism. We’re not really um I’m not against Islam, but I
just it’s not the sort of I guess place for it. So, just a heads up on on that one. Um there was something there. What
was I going to say? You were just saying and I got distracted by by that. What were you saying, Josh, a second ago?
Well, I I said um like a a well-wishing and oh, if if you I you know, maybe
someday in the future I could consider I know what it was. So, one teacher, I
don’t know if you know her, Jill Shepherd. Do you know Jill? And yes, I do. Yeah. I love that. There’s an
Australian Buddhist teacher, and I really love her downto-earth practicality and really helpful,
especially when it comes to these Brahma Bahara practices. Yeah. She’s often in Australia. She’s from New Zealand, but I think she spends
a lot of time at um Oh, thanks for Yes. Okay. She’s she’s a Kiwi then. Yeah. Um and she said one
time there was somebody and he really struggled with u meta practice, loving
kindness practice and he just and so he he started this thing where it was
may I have the possibility that potentially there could be an opening um
and towards a direction of
um potential ial suggestion for loving kind, you know, and he had this whole
thing and she said it was like a United Nations document that it had so many caveats in there. So, but nonetheless,
he did it and he did it for about 3 days and then he went, “Oh, this is ridiculous. Why don’t I just do love and
kindness?” So I think it doesn’t it’s fine to be really hesitant at the beginning and um
and yeah so I think it’s good to recognize that this
is where you’re at and then kind of yeah lose it. So and and then just go yeah
anyway wake up I’m not I’m not going to be doing it. say, yeah, you know, the the the just being
honest and straightforward with herself, too. And now, um, Amaz, I just read the
comment in there, and what this brings up for me is, um, this is a classic antidote to illwill, you know. Um, so,
and it’s it’s it’s interesting because it can be both a kind of personal practice and an impersonal practice, you
know. there can be it can be practiced towards others ourselves you know and actually multiple groups of beings and
it’s just a well-wishing and it’s um an antidote to ill like I was saying so the
the historical Buddha he didn’t really advocate killing anything um other than
slaying ill will so that’s not a human or an ide ide ideology this is um
energetic reality right that when I have ill will to me how I kind of define that
is a thought or a notion arises in the mind and I’m aware of it you know and it
it’s a it’s it’s something where I want to harm someone for some reason whatsoever or no reason whatsoever and
then I consent to that I I say that’s okay yeah that’s okay for that to be
there so that’s what I consider ill will right so sometimes these um due to our
past actions and things like that are just different circumstances these things will arise that I want to you
know I I have ill will in the heart that I want to maybe um see someone suffer or have some kind of harm come to them or
something like that but if there’s a choice then I say no I don’t want that that’s not me that’s not who I am I do
not consent to that I do not want that so that I don’t consider ill will but when I consciously say to go along with
that that that’s okay then I consider that ill will that’s what I see so meta loving kindness is an antidote to that
so instead of suppressing this energy that you know some of us have and I’m I’m sure we’ve all experienced this in
our lives can actually turn that energy around on itself and use it to destroy that ill will you know and so um so this
um and then I like practicality about this what if someone is being abusive
towards us you know oh you’re going to be may you be safe may you be happy may you know it just doesn’t feel right
right so what he recommends and I feel this is kind of uh real um is you say
you know may you come to know the heirs of your ways and change you know for the
benefit of yourself and for the benefit of me in in all beings you know so it’s it’s actually actively acknowledging
that what they’re doing is harmful and hurtful and and saying you know may you
may you come to wisdom and know of your actions that are being harmful you know
and another thing is um there’s this verse from the dharmapata that ill will will never overcome ill will. Only
non-ill will can overcome ill will. This is an ancient and eternal law. And so,
you know, it’s so easy, I think, to have want to have revenge. You know, they did me wrong and I’m going to do them wrong
and then justify all my actions because of it. But the thing is, it will never
end like that. This victim victimizer going on and on and on, you know, and
just uh justifying actions through anything, you know. um through through through through deities through you know
um ideologies something like that but if we look into that and feel into this for ourselves someone has to choose
differently and say okay I’m not going to do this anymore I choose to not do this and look at the really long view
and that’s the only way I see out of you know this otherwise it just is self um perpetuating cycle for what you know it
you know if you want well-being and peace then then Someone has to choose
differently and choose not to do this. And I’ll just go into one more quick thing that I love. I find so um
like a pinnacle of this simile of the saw. If even if a bandit was uh this comes from the historical Buddhism, even
if a bandit was ripping my arms limb to limb sawing them and you do and I you if if a bandit was doing it to you, right?
And you do not have absolute loving kindness towards them, you’ve misunderstood my teachings. I mean, if
that’s actually a a possibility, I mean, I don’t see how you can really get beyond that. I mean, most of us are
obviously so far from that, but it’s kind of the spirit of that that that what if that was possible? What would
the world look like, you know? Um, even if we just refra if even just the whole human race refrain from killing one
human being or any human beings in one day, how different the world would look. And we take that for granted, but I know
I say this a lot, but uh that’s not everybody. Not everybody on earth can say that you know. So
for sure I was just thinking with her. So I came up with this sort of idea a while ago which is um that
um I I sort of stepped through and I can’t remember whether you and I have gone through it before but it’s basically you
bring to mind an emotional hurt and then you have an identity that emerges as a result of that which is something like
I’d never behave like that to someone else. Did we do this before in another one? No. And then um you know, so you
might hurt me and I go, “Oh, well, I’d never do that to you.” And then
and then there’s something about um you don’t care about me because you show
care in this other situation, but you don’t show the same care with me.
And then you bring and then you ask yourself what am I bringing to the table?
And and then inquiring further which is what
is your history when you have behaved like this before. So it takes the
assumption that you have and then sometimes you can be um you can you can
present vulnerability for for that person. So there’s a way you know maybe
um yeah and then also the next one is
what emotional blind spot are you unconsciously revealing to the other person that they themselves can’t
acknowledge about themselves. and then um noticing the emotional need. Does
this person have the capacity to have the emotions in the way that you would like them to have? So, there’s a bit of
a long step there, but um
yeah, it’s sort of interesting to think what am I bringing to the table in this?
I found that really helpful. And I’ve worked with my friend and she finds it super helpful to go, well, it’s actually
me who’s being really horrible and abusive to my husband. Is actually not my husband who’s being abusive to me.
This is interesting. But she’s going, he does this and he does that. And then I’m
going, I’m not sure it’s him actually. I think maybe you’re a player in this, too. So, yeah.
It’s like, yeah, you you want we our Q&A today is meta meditation questions. So, are we
still on track with that conversation? I think so. You know, this is um I think
any kind of human relationship um meta comes into it. And um so in this
instance that you’re talking about, how we meet another person, what we bring, ideally we bring a a heart of goodwill.
We want the best for ourselves and the other person, but like you’re saying this um what’s theirs, what’s mine, you
know, um who’s doing what? Who’s responsible for what? Did they really do this? Can anyone actually um be
responsible for how I feel 100%. What’s my role in that? What’s their role? You
know, how do we meet? How do we not really accuse? How do we end these cycles of victimization and being
victimized? um how do we not victim shame but how do we not stay in victimhood um and use that um to justify
all kinds of things and how do we get true empowerment so all these um wonderful amazing questions but when it
comes to meta I feel that’s what kind of meets everything in our lives and then
when it meets suffering then it switches to compassion right and when it when it
when we talk about the good side when meta meets um you know someone that’s having like a lot of good things happen
in their life that turns to muda and we can rejoice and instead of getting jealous which is so easy to do which I u
fall into out of habitual things and I think maybe a lot of us do and then I can say oh no I can be happy for their
happiness I don’t have to be jealous or think that I’m missing out or why doesn’t this happen to me why can’t I
feel good I don’t feel good right now why are they feeling good you know and so I can be rejoice for their happiness
and this also this notion of equinimity sometimes um we can’t really do anything
you know there’s not much we can do but what we can care we don’t have to be indifferent we can say everyone is
responsible for their own actions you know um I can’t live their life for them
that that what they’ve um you know it’s not the most appropriate thing to say in certain situations say oh you you know
you did something in your past because you know so that’s what you’re experiencing now not really the most
skillful thing to say but there is there is a lot to that you know when I do um intentional action
it’s going to have a result you know if it’s skillful it tends to have more skillful and vice versa so kind of
realizing that but then um um like when when we there’s nothing much we can do I
think so this is these are um I as far as I know the pinnacle of human
relations and it’s okay if we’re we’re not there these these practices. These are, you know, we can aspire to these.
We can find whatever flavors of these we find helpful and accessible and real and practical, you know.
So, what’s your favorite meta practice? Like how do you practice meta so that it
it’s it’s actually lands deeply and it changes the way that you are in your
relationships with others with people who are difficult and hurtful. How do
you do this? Well, that’s that that’s a really good question. I’ll just um tell you like
what I did my morning practice before I I was of course this is meta so it made sense to do a little bit more meta this
morning but actually my um practice has been a little bit more artificial in wrote lately I’d think um but it’s still
even that I feel whatever is whatever is possible I would just since I’m more
verbal recite phrases you know may all beings everywhere be safe inside and out
may all beings everywhere be happy and joyful but actually feel whatever is possible here. And the the intention is
what matters too. Really wanting that as authentically as you can because I know it’s going to benefit myself. I’m the
first recipient of all this, right? I’m going to benefit from it. But then when everybody else has the same, they feel
safe around me and u you know that there’s really nothing but benefit that
can come from it. May all beings be um peaceful and calm or no peace in their
heart. May they be healthy and strong and may they realize awakening and be free. So it’s this it’s this um yeah
well-wishing. But today, you know what I uh I have these crows in Europe and you
know they are in America too, but in Denmark and um England especially um
they just they creep me out a little bit, you know, and you watch movies and TV shows, there’s usually crows um
happening when something significant is going to happen to someone and it’s usually not the best most positive
loving, you know, uh thing that happens. And so I’m like, okay, I noticed that
that, you know, I have this kind of superstitious preloading thing into this and how am I
going to be with that, you know? Um, so, you know, it sounds a little bit ridiculous, but I’m wishing the crows
well, you know, even though I kind of feel feel I felt this kind of I don’t know, like dark cloud energy and uh but
at the same time there were song birds singing too, you know. So, a lot of times life is a mix of things. um uh a
lot how much is in the mind you know how much is there something to it and of course in this instance nothing really
beyond that has happened and um so so
that’s that’s an example of being more on a remote place like this but as far
as human interactions um I do find this thing what we bring to the table um is
going to affect how we meet someone is going to condition uh their response
back to us. If I’m, you know, it’s just really basic common sense in a way. If I’m grumpy, upset, and sour and
scowlling at someone when I interact with them, there’s probably not a good
chance that I’m going to be met with something that’s completely the opposite and loving and bright and just, you
know, oh, oh, hey, you know, because it it’s our tendency usually is to match the other person’s energy. This is
another thing this uh meta practice it does informal practice it builds up this
reserve this reference point okay I know how this feels I have this feeling now
and I I know this energy and it’s it’s getting strong and and stable and now
when I’m mindful in an interaction if someone meets me with a certain energy instead of just unconsciously lowering
myself to to to match what they’re doing and because we kind of do that naturally to resonate with someone to meet them
where they’re at. Now, it it’s it’s interesting, but when we do have a choice to meet them where they’re at,
but also to stay consciously choose not to match their energy, to stay in a more
stable ground, um, whatever energy we choose. And that meta I find is really
helpful to meet. So I can meet them, be empathetic and know what it is, but then choose to respond with a different type
of energy, a more beneficial type of energy for them and myself when I’m being mindful, you know. Uh so that’s
that’s one of the things when I am that that I can find very helpful because you know when I go down to some someone and
match the same type of then I just kind of just two people in a world of
messiness, you know. And the other thing is to switch to compassion too is to say, “Hey, I acknowledge this. I’m not
pretending this isn’t here. I’m meeting this. I’m this is painful. This sucks
and I want it to I wish for it to go away and for you to know peace and I know kind of my limit on what that is
and when I need to withdraw and then practice uh kind of compassion for myself because sometimes it can be too
overwhelming, you know.” And then what about you Wendy? How do you how do you So it’s interesting. I was just thinking
of two things. Um, one actually was from yesterday. So, I
had a meeting uh maybe it wasn’t yesterday, maybe it was just this morning and uh I had a meeting with
somebody very senior and um at council and my husband also works
at council. So I’m an external and I have my community transport group and he
he works as a staffer there and he was talking about his experience about
meeting this senior manager who I was meeting but another time like a year ago and he just felt this really unpleasant
energy and so I was talking about it and we
were talking about and we go so how does somebody get to that way like they don’t come children don’t come into the world
like that, just watchful and scanning and all the rest. And so we just
hypothesized about I wonder what happened to him as a little boy. You
know, you don’t know. We sort of both know his physical size
and what could have happened. And we we just created a story and we went, “Oh,
maybe that happened or this happened or that happened.” And suddenly instead of seeing him as this frustrating person
who’s XY Z, we just went ah he’s like this and suddenly the little boy
was sort of came alive and we could understand and engage with him at the
human level as a vulnerable person. So this was very interesting and as soon as we had kind of created this story about
him we went ah and it felt resonant. So, we weren’t skipping over or masking
over, oh, you know, maybe he had this, but was really like, well, what is it that we experience feeling into that and
going maybe that’s what happened? I mean, you just don’t know anybody’s lives and he’s certainly not going to be
telling us. So, it was very interesting cuz his experience and my experience is
so completely different because this person is actually very charming with me. So, it was just interesting to see
that. But my favorite practice that I have been doing for several years now, probably a decade or so now, is just to
look for every single thing that someone does that helps me feel at ease,
which is um so
so helpful. So um like you’re here today
with good energy. you’re coming with good spirits and it’s a sunny day. You’ve arranged a lovely
backdrop. Um, my accountant contacted me before and
said, “I can’t complete your tax return unless you provide these.” And, you
know, at some level, I mean, if she was not diligent, then well, I wouldn’t be able to do that. And so, that helps me
feel at ease. I go, “Oh, yeah. Okay, she’s doing a good job. Great. I’ll send that back.” very very clear about yep
bullet points this is what I want. So and that just made it super straightforward.
And then this morning somebody I had a bit of an exchange. I had I met again I
bumped into a colleague who I haven’t seen in a while at a networking thing
and we so hit it off and she’s going to connect me with this person and that person and then she and I are going to
connect and actually this morning I had a cup of tea with a friend and I’ve been living here for three and a half years
and I just bump in cuz I’m on a bicycle and she’s on a bicycle so we sort of
bump into each other. we have you know she’s married I’m married and we have gone out and done things lovely lovely
couple and she said basically she said uh let’s meet and sort of
uh develop our friendship and she was quite overt about that it
was a really sweet gesture that well I don’t have any friends and who has friends these days you know like really
who has friends that they catch up with anymore everyone’s sort of on their phone and you catch up with people,
maybe going out to dinner or something. But I’ve moved and here there’s no restaurants to go to and I don’t know
that many people. We move a lot. It’s it’s you can’t go somewhere and where there is a group of people often anymore
because there’s no group of people. You try and do something and then it doesn’t work and then that’s that. So that
people try things and then it falls over because there just is no longer this critical mass to keep the community
going. it’s all sort of false. So it was really lovely that she just reached out
to me to have oh let’s have a cup of tea and um and came forward with that
suggestion. So it was really really delightful. So these things and
really helped me with my day and yeah that that’s so cool and going with that
and then working backwards. Um this is it just reminded me of this
aspect of meta and how important it is for friendship too if we’re doing unstoppable friendliness and this
kalyana mita is a Buddhist term for like spiritual friendship and how he even said that’s the entirety of the path and
Wendy illustrated this so um importantly how this is happening more in a postco
world here post whatever lockdown world and uh I I do I do see the same thing
and I mean it’s a little bit different traveling internationally and being in foreign countries and things but when I was in America after this too it is
challenging to get together in real meet space as some people call it um but this is where I have to really um I value the
the the few friends that I do have I really value this I have I have to take the well I don’t have to I mean sure
they they reach out from time to time but if I really want friendships um I have to take the initiative and I just
done that and I the few relationships that that I really value and maintain. I
will actively and it doesn’t have to be all the time. And another good sign of friendship I find is I can use a long
amount of time and then just get back in touch with them and it’s like no time has passed. The person’s not angry or
anything. It’s like oh cool, you know, and just kind of almost pick up. That’s a rarity. And so I I I value that’s
really precious to me. But like I’m going to housesit for friends when I get back. you know, I keep in touch um you
know, when I uh with certain video calls every once in a while with it with a few people and then I make kind of I I go
through the effort to make arrangements to schedule I I’ll just throw out a time. Okay, well they invited me over to
the house. So I’ll actively just set a time and say, “Hey, we can change it whenever and just to have something there. We can easily change it.” But if
I don’t throw that out and take the initiative, there’s not a lot of incentive for people to to actively do
that, you know, for for you, you know. So that’s why kind of take the lead on this for things that I value. But I love
these chance encounters, too. They’re amazing. We have to have opportunity in our life to to make these things happen.
Be open to these things because some of the most amazing things happen when we least expect it. But then when I’m too
rigid in my ways and say, “Oh, no. That’s a lovely gesture, but I’m kind of I want to do this and I have this
habitual thing to do this and I’m not opening up to do that.” but also be understanding that hey even though I
like I have a friend here I’m just rejoicing because he’s got um kind of I have a lot of uh students now a
meditation teacher and he just just doesn’t really have the time to meet up because he’s he’s so being so successful
right now which I think is overwhelmingly joyful and I’m just so glad for him and I’m actually happy that
I can’t meet him because he’s having so much success because what he’s doing is what I want too for myself and for
everyone. So, of course, I’m just overjoyed and it’s it’s a little bit bittersweet, of course, you know, that, you know,
that I’m being a little selfish that I can’t meet meet up with him and talk. Um, but that’s okay. You know, I I I got
that chance before and it’s lovely. Now, with the guy um um and thank you so much
for reminding me of this guy. Well, actually, when when you say and reminding me of your meta practice of
when other people have brought me ease, that is I was going to bring up the the original meta and read it again. I I’ve
read it on a past episode, so maybe I’ll link to that. But may may you be at ease. May be that’s that’s the of all
the different kind of well-wishing in that suta, that’s the one that has the most refrain. May you be at ease, you
know, not a disease, a disease, but at ease. And you you hear me? I’m ramped up
here. I I’m getting enthusiastic, you know, so and brightening. But um it
can’t be stressed how much how how uh wholesome and usually I think with a
Protestant work ethic we sometimes confuse this for laziness or you know
not doing enough or not caring enough. And I think that’s another aspect that you what we are human beings you know um
we’re not human doings that we don’t have to do say or be any particular way to be worthy and valuable and be here
and put uh a worth on just being you know the state of our beingness not our
doingness not this or that but just how we are in a natural state and how much
ease and well-being that fosters and how we don’t have perform or do anything
right or get anything wrong or anything like that or not living up. It’s just
okay just to have things as they are. That’s totally okay. That ease is
conducive to some samati practice too. And so I I thank you for that because
it’s so much easier for me to transition into my formal breath meditation when I can recognize okay where where have
someone contributed to ease in my life and where have I contributed to ease in other people’s life and if nothing comes
to mind then I can wish that for myself I can wish that for others and that wishing that ease is it it I think
qualifies in some way there and it helps condition the heart even to more towards
more recognition of that and priming the And my teacher reminded me of this guy and I think it’s kind of a cliche in a
way but it’s still so helpful and actually it’s not putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. Uh I I just I need
more of this because my tendency is to to be judgmental sometimes even though you know I think it’s for I won’t go
into justification but when I just stop and say okay what has this person go through you know this thing that hurt
people hurt people. So something has happened and I like Wendy’s way of connecting. She doesn’t know and it’s
not probably not appropriate to go up and say hey you know um what happened to you where you’re such a you
know sorry you can’t no that’s not helpful right but so you know um but
putting yourself in those other people’s shoes and well I don’t um just a reflection on that is kind of more my
tendency Wendy has like most people connect with a story so when you create a story like that I would say maybe the
only danger is then starting actually forgetting and then mistaking that that’s actually what happened and that’s
how he is being very very careful not to mistake that for what happened but it really brings the
immediiacy right we hear someone’s story we kind of connect almost immediately with them we can oh yeah now I get it
now I can understand you know so I find that really helpful interesting technique to do that yeah so it’s a
beautiful thanks for sharing that yeah I was thinking about um
so a couple of weeks ago the house opposite that new people moved in. And
when the people o when we moved into this house, we we I mean I I’m very
extroverted, so I just go up and I’d say hello to everybody. But there is no um
but there was there was no kind of help or support. I mean, I guess we’re a middle-aged couple, so they thought,
“Oh, yeah, well, they’ll just organize it.” There’s no help or support. So when the family moved in across the street,
they I said, “Here’s a tray and with mugs and
tea and coffee and milk and sugar and some fruit for the kids and a knife and a chopping board, whatever.” And it was
just a complete godsend for them. They just loved it. And so when the new
people moved in just next to my neighbors that I just mentioned, um, so
they had done a whole lot of renovation works and the neighbors on the other side, they had been providing food for
the guys, the sort of I think it was the um, father in the house and then the
grandfather so to speak and um, and the other guys who the mates and so they
provided a whole lot of food on the weekends for these guys who otherwise wouldn’t eat. And then in the house
opposite when everybody moved in, they got stuff for the kids and my then just
opposite me, she did something and I gave them cups of tea and what and I
gave them some fruit and things and I also gave some tea towels. Tea towels really handy when you move into it’s
like oh my goodness. And also toilet paper. Sometimes when we moved in we didn’t even get toilet paper.
is so important to like practical things. It doesn’t have to be just
energetic. I think sometimes we can mistake energetic help for being helpful. But if you’re in a flood zone,
if you’re moving house, but I would say that um it would be in if you want to build
community where you live, you start doing that every time somebody moves in.
You take a cup of you take a kettle and some mugs and cake and tea and coffee,
whatever, fruit, and you just give them that. And then when they’ve, you know, say, “Oh, we’ll give it back when you’re
ready.” You know, and so the new people who moved in just a couple of weeks ago,
they said they’ve never come across anything at all like that and they’ve lived in all sorts of different places.
So they’ve bought that house and they just feel, “Oh, we have made the right decision instantly.”
They’ve got, you know, surround sound kindness. Super amazing. That’s so beautiful practice, Wendy. Um,
I think yeah, Huga in Denmark is really, but I guess it’s different. I don’t know
if it’d be out of place to do that or not, but this culture is teaching me more restraint, which I can which I
benefit from, but that is I I if I would have known that. Well, they always say if everything else fails, try a gift.
But you can go right off the the bat. It just you know, yeah, it feels like you’re you’re you belong. You’re
welcome. everyone. It’s it’s a kind of a deep in um ingrained need that people
have or even if it’s not a need, it just feels so kind of welcoming and stable
and you have someone that you that has made contact with, you know, gone out of their way to make you feel welcome that
that could be of support and that you know that I can connect with. So yeah, I
mean you can’t really say good enough about this. Then we did is show compassion and action and that’s right
you know um is everything okay? How can I help? Is there anything I can do? You know these are things even just offering
that sometimes when we almost know that they’re going to say no no thank you for all but anyway it’s just that that
gesture of offering and but then actually backing it up if there is something going to go to whatever makes
sense for you to actually do and I I think we don’t yeah these these are complimentary we can do it energetically
but we can do it in real life too. So yeah, what’s most needed in the moment and what do I have available to offer
and and being okay with okay, I really don’t have the capacity to to offer that now. I might want to and consider it in
the future. Um but even that I think counts is just considering it even if I don’t feel like I would that’s not my
personality style. I wouldn’t do that, but just considering it. Hey, that’s a maybe that’s a possibility or maybe I can show a similar gesture in in in a
different way, you know, um or or something like, you know, just feel what what’s uh feel into what feels authentic
and helpful and what you’re willing to do. And I think uh if I can use that practice, that would be great. And I
wish there was more of a tea culture in America, but maybe you might just bring like a a soft drink or I I don’t know
what you would bring. Uh hopefully not junk food or or beer or liquor or something, but I actually, you know,
yeah, you can do something. So, it’s really just a kettle. I don’t know if people make homemade coffee, like coffee with
instant coffee or something like that, but you can take a mugs, whatever you do to make your coffee, that sort of thing.
But here’s another instance. So, um we’re about to wrap up in one minute, but I’ll give you this super short
story. My longestanding friend texted me the other day to say that her mom had
just died and her mother’s very elderly and bit long awaited. So there you go.
And I said to her, people will want to offer to help. So
designate a friend of yours who lives nearby to be the contact person and you
just offer you just give that you know that person’s phone number out and then
that person can be the liaison person to go how can I help because you don’t want
to have to deal with all this grief and papers and funerals and everything else and then have to go and how can I help
you know you want somebody you want some sort of something useful so Yeah, that’s another way of doing it.
So, let me get that. So, let me get that. Uh, right. So, you um at a funeral you have a a contact person that takes
all the people that want to help deal with all the offerings that want to help. I think that’s really
so so she’s just like her she’s at home and her friend has died and her mom has died,
but you could say your spouse has died and you’re dealing with, you know, having to make all these arrangements, dealing with your own grief. if you’ve
got family members and you want to you just don’t want to have to deal with other people so much. And so I said
designate a friend to be the contact person. So when somebody says how can I help? You can
say Jenny can you contact them and give them some ideas about how they can help. So
that’s so great Wendy because yeah my instead of saying oh I’m sorry for your loss or or things like this I say how
can I help? You know is there anything you need? Is there any way I can help? The thing is, but the people are so overwhelmed. It’s too much. That’s
brilliant. So, you need to give somebody else that task time, Josh. We are. So, thank you for that
suggestion, too. It’s really it it seems really helpful. So, may you all out there have the most uh optimal loving
kindness practice, whatever that means for you, and may it benefit you and all beings everywhere.
Have fun. Until next time. Yes. Be light and joyful. be kind and remember those who promote ease in
your life. Right. So, totally. All right. Thank you all for joining and
uh maybe we’ll see you next
Integrating Presence 
4 thoughts on “Aspects Of Metta (Loving-kindness) | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #34”