In this twenty-sixth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore attention spans drawing from our internal and external meditative and non-meditative observations to examine how attention spans seem to be quite short these days, why this may be, and what to do about it in/with meditation practice and in everyday life. Amongst the topics mentioned are the four roads to success/power, honesty, seeing what’s really present, self-kindness and belonging.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Lengthening Attention Spans | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #26
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
holess welcome this is Josh integrating presence and today we’re back again for another Q&A with a lovely windy Nash
Wendy what’s going on what’s going on I’m here on gubby Gabby country in Queensland in Australia and what’s going
on my bike got stolen a couple of weeks ago so that’s been quite a journey
and uh and so what else that’s been a journey that was much
more expensive even though I had Insurance much more expensive than I expected so this been quite interesting
to discover how beneficial the Dharma is cu I look at all the good parts all the
kind things that people do rather than focus on why is my insurance company swindling me
and and why did somebody steal my bicycle in the first place so it’s been
quite good actually yeah it’s isn’t this interesting you’ve
got this group with um you know biking promoting biking more over driving and
then your car gets I mean your um your bike gets stolen you know uh hopefully
there’s no Shenanigans involved here um yeah yeah and like you said about the
dharm um excuse me while I’m bringing up something here on the screen you know it does it really does
so these inevitable challenges we face in our lives and then like what’s going to help us with these what’s what’s
really going to be a benefit I mean do we want to there’s plenty of things out there we can cope with and um you know
improve our lives but I as far as overall complete systems longest standing most effective this is what
I’ve come across especially for everyday life so today we’ve go ahead yeah no you
go oh I was just gonna do a little bit too much of a abrupt transition here to
today’s uh show which I’m calling um lening lengthening attention spans this
is the 26th um meditation Q&A we’ve done and this
is um and you of course for those of us for those oh easy for me to say those of
us for those of you and us who have um not joined before this is an ongoing
live series uh where we look into our meditation practice on and off the cushion and today we want to get into
attention spans and we’ll make draw on our internal and external meditative and non-meditative observations to examine
how attention spans seem to be quite short these days why this might be and
what to do about it in meditation practice and in everyday life so of
course I read that little description I wrote there Wendy I want to throw it over to
you attention spans what you what do you say about this stuff yeah I’m not very
good at detention spans I do notice that when I watch movies movies from a couple of decades ago gee they’re
slow you know and that’s quite interesting to see what La what
keeps what is it that dat that that makes us lose
attention so I think that’s that’s interesting I’ve been looking at in my
own practice sort of the benefits of having
a sustained day practice so even though
now I don’t have like a couple of years ago I was sitting for two hours a day it
was fantastic and now I can just about get half an hour so things change and
there are other commitments and other people in my life so I don’t have the same sense of control
and what’s really interesting though is that that I’ve by just even having the daily
practice and having done it for good number of decades now then what I see is
that I’m able to sort of widen this space so I guess
I’m talking about the benefit and and how good that is so I’ve
been thinking a little bit about low self-esteem and the sort of sense of
Sorrow when you feel excluded and the arising of identity you know how your
body hardens and when you have a lengthened attention span on meditation
you can see these you have time to allow these inquiries to
occur so yeah it’s probably jumping in at the cell end this is really helpful
not so much at the where do you begin end of the spectrum and how do you do it
and what are the antecedents in our current society and mobile phones and all the rest yes we’ we’ve got there’s
plenty to to discuss and talk about and I would definitely say yeah the the
lengthening of the space uh that meditation can bring right
the this um container this bigger container that it
provides um this tendency to allow for more of response instead of
reaction um you know this this notion of a continuity in practice too I think
that’s another huge thing so so many things to um to to jump into here and
where you actually started trying to to make sense of the whole notion of shorter attention spans in general and I
think what you pointed at the beginning was a really good place to um to bring up here is look at movies in media from
a long time ago I mean this is really evident I think I’ve talked about this
before where get these old movies where they have these really long camera you
know um without any Cuts just a really long opening scene and it’s just one
camera for a really really really long time before it cuts to a different angle
and that’s how you know movies and TV shows used to be now it is just uh to
look at any media especially social media chop chop chop chop chop Bam Bam Bam Bam Bam you know it’s maybe a second
sometimes not even a second maybe two or three seconds and so what does this do to our tension spans well I mean it
doesn’t take a genius to figure this out right and uh fracturing of our minds too
you know our minds are used to having this constant novel stimulation
something that’s different and not on the same thing and I get it you know it
feeds I guess maybe a dopamine response um there’s a lot of boring things out
there right there we our time is precious we don’t want to just listen to Somebody Like Me blab on and on and on
about this and that right we want to get right to the meat and potatoes but the depth of our experience
you know how does this dealing with contentment too if I can’t stay on a s single topic for a long time it kind of
mirrors or correlates the mind of just wanting to jump to the next thing and the next thing thinking it’s going to
take satisfaction in a new shiny object a new goal a new this a new that and
once we get it then it’s it’s okay for a while but then it’s it’s just on to the next thing on to the next thing and so
there’s this sense of really first off having contentment you know contentment
in staying with something the more we can be content with less I think just
the more opportunity we have for contentment when we get more you know um
this this notion of being okay with something now also we can’t really get
anywhere on but the surface level of things if the mind can’t just spin the
time on something the heart can’t really absorb and spend time on just one thing
we can’t really go into the depths penetrate The Depths and the details of something to investigate to see its
deeper nature to fully appreciate and understand you know to realize when he’s
talked about how important belonging is you know um but I get it if we think
maybe our chances might increase for belonging if we just go try a bunch of different things out and there’s nothing
wrong with that that’s what we we we we find people in this uh and different opportunities for
belonging but you know this fomo I think might play into it too fear of missing
out so I think that’s enough to get us going on maybe some of the current background of this and I just wonder you
know who benefits from this um does anybody benefit from this or how did it
get like this I don’t know if we need to to answer all these questions but these are the kind of things I see in our
external lives yeah so a couple of things I just want to pull out there from what you’ve just
mentioned I was just an observation I hadn’t noticed so in my previous
relationships I would get a bit irritated and with my partner or
whatever and I’d get a bit short-tempered if he did something or whatever but um he can hear you typing
by the way Josh oh no I’m trying to bring up the YouTube thing for comments but oh I’ve got it here it’s all right
I’ve got it got it all right okay you were saying about your partner and getting irritated yeah so so um and what
I realize now is that I actually don’t react that what I’m doing is going what
do I want to do is it worth raising it or is it just me having a temper
tantrum and is it my yearning for control or is it my what whatever so I
thought because I was thinking about that yesterday or the maybe the last few week or so just going I’m actually
really different in the way that I respond in relationships and this is because I’m not going well why did you
do it like that don’t do it like that but I want to do it this way which goes through my mind but it just doesn’t come
out of my mouth so I think and if if it if it’s something I really want to talk
about it I kind of can hold it and then mention it later in a nicer way
in maybe a more playful way or whatever so it just when you have that you
actually allow more playfulness in your relationships so I thought that was really interesting and the other one in
contrast you know I have online meetings and if there’s this sort of slight lull
where I think oh God I’m a bit bored uh and I can feel myself yearning
to sort of like just get the phone hide that I’m actually looking at my phone
you know but of course everyone knows that I’m looking at my phone cuz there’s a look that you get when somebody’s checking their
phone so yeah just how actually I can’t
tolerate online it seems to be a bit Hollow there I guess that’s definitely
one and just to go back about belonging and purchasing and things like
that um let me see if I’ve got what you saying that you were saying that because
we feel this slight unsettled something or rather that we then kind of flip to this to that to that to that and we end
up buying things that we kind of don’t want is that what you were sort of saying well that’s that’s part of it uh
but you know you said because we um you know I just we’re looking for things
that satisfy us it could be anything it could be you know buying or just what
information online to consume or what kind of projects we want to do around the house or who we want to talk to or
what we think will bring us satisfaction you know and yeah if you know so if
there’s a long attention span we can really absorb into something on a deeper
level and allow it to completely engulf us and um have this sense of
more contentment like if we’re reading a novel I don’t know for those of us to read right really get absorbed into a novel
that you don’t even really know that time’s passing or you don’t hear things happening um completely forget about a
lot of other things and completely right there into it um but when we think we’re
on the surf or but when we’re on the surface level of life we don’t have that type of deeper experience and that type
of satisfying experience a lot of times I like how you say about the the hollow
of online interactions a lot of times yeah and um how I think some of the
things of just going through the motions and some of the things seem more like commitment based or like we’re like an
obligation and but some of the things though I find online I I really want to do and I’m really engrossed and absorbed
in them but yeah about checking your phone on line and then what you said about relationships too you know this is
really important I feel for like Harmony in relationships um instead of just
immediately reacting right and that there’s there can be this pause this
this seeing of how we want to react and then restraining from this this habitual
way of reacting right and and I think it’s very helpful I just hopefully it
doesn’t lead to like repression of like how uh how we feel and how we um I
I I don’t know you know so it’s what we’re talking about here is not a repressing and holding down how we feel
you know um it’s just a kind of a what a consideration and a restraint for the
other person because sometimes I know when I react it it’s I feel like some kind of righteousness is involved like I
am entitled to say this and you
know and uh usually that backfires a lot of times it backfires it fuels the
ongoing contentions and um conflict so
the best way to stop that cycle is just to say Okay I I don’t need to be right I
I uh I can be with unpleasantness but I have to take my foot off the gas and I take my foot off
the gas yes it will be unpleasant yes I will want to say things and react and
and it takes energy to hold it back but in the long run somebody’s got to break
that cycle or it can escalate and it could blow up or it just it’s it’s it it
can be way worse than if I don’t do that and I can’t rely on the other person to do that all the time either you know so
it’s about taking responsibility for seeing a little bit into the future comparing ing how my interactions have
been and say okay I have a chance to change this I can just bucket up or I mean I can just be with unpleasantness
for a while and that energy will die out and then something more um wholesome and
skillful will then have the means to potentially arise and plus I’m protecting the other person too from my
own um heedlessness yeah M lack of mindfulness and lack of restraint
yeah yeah I want to go back a little bit to the dissatisfaction is that okay because
here we are it’s dhal land so let’s talk dissatisfaction sure um basically because I just had
this really interesting insight and so I’m quite curious to explore that a
little bit so I’ve been so I’ve been very curious about what it is that when you
are angry you get this high you know we there’s we see a lot of
politics at the moment where people are very angry and there you can feel their bodies are kind of hard in the way that
they’re outraged there’s a lot of outrage at the moment in our political
landscape and as I sort of fell into that I sort of became very curious about this and what I when I sort of step back
and back and back you know because I want to go back and back and find the root right down to the root and of
course there is no root because um it’s just Dua suffering there is no root
there is no self but what became clear is and I want to test it out see what
you think so this is I guess the benefit of lengthening attention spans that I’m
talking about here so I was thinking and
then if I bring to mind a time when I felt excluded in a group and we all know
that feeling we’ve all felt like we know when we’re excluded we just absolutely
know and there but what I’ve realized is that well for me anyway that when I’m
sad in that situation it has a particular flavor to it and I actually
can’t express it so it becomes quite locked in the body but it starts from this knowing I
feel excluded a deep sadness at knowing that
truth and then unable to express it and it becomes this
hardness and my sense is then it becomes the core of
dissatisfaction for so much of our Lives because we want to by that thing which
will make us feel that we belong because this is this sort of foundational
sadness that we’re trying to negate but like you said you know if you
sit there and you kind of follow it and and inquire and you space out the
attention span it’s the sort of thing that you can tap into what do you think
Josh it to totally is and I’ll just say that the
the my relation to non-belonging is kind of a different one too is that I’ve kind
of always been on the fringes right the social groups that coming up I never
really fit into all of them even the one that I was a part of which was kind of like the stoner group I didn’t really
even smoke pot you know but those are the only people that would that would take me and so and kind of roughy and
things like that completely different than what I am today and you know being in a foreign country not having a lot of
interactions going to another even more foreign country here pretty soon you know I’ve kind of always been on the
outside the outcast amongst Outcast so much so this sense of belonging um where
yeah I just I did reflect on it quite a bit of not fitting in but this
is more to um the not directly to your point but just in
the sense of belonging what I found really helped me with this is spiritual friends you know once I had uh a friend
that I could really relate to and really you know for guys it’s kind of more like
um things we’re interested in so it’s it’s in a way it’s kind of more easy to
belong I think amongst guys because it’s really a lot of it’s superficial you just have to share the same interest and
you just feel like you know you you have a friend or you’re you’re you’re you’re belonging and uh so this is U that’s
that’s how I found around this and really cherishing these these friends and now it’s spiritual friends because
you know there’s this famous line in the sutas that Nanda said you know went to the Buddha and said I guess spiritual
friendship it’s got to be like what 50 80% of the Holy life and he said no Nanda don’t say that don’t say that it’s
in the entirety of the Holy life and it really can’t be stated enough and forget
this time and time again and then it’s like this new insight every time oh friends oh wow yeah and I just start
recollecting dham friends and other friends and then I can it’s so nice today I can just reach out and then
instantly there’s this sense of belonging and so Wendy mentioned an insight and I think this a lot of that
has just do with remembering right reflecting on times in the past and just
let how letting that it in the heart and use that as motivation for um just kind
of our our natural sense of wisdom and insight and care to arise and meet that
with what’s needed and in Wendy’s case it it showed how she um really feels
deeply into that and what works for her with that you know and um you know this
this sense of belonging I I feel you know they they say it comes comes from being you know worried about survival
you know worried about being an outcast and not having needs met and not getting
enough uh shelter food you know things that we need to to to live and survive
and I think that’s one part of it today it’s I don’t think it’s as pressing in
that sense um so it’s more of a psychological and heart based thing and
mind based thing and uh this deep sense of s sadness too that can come with it
you know it really is now when I um started completely transitioning from
one way of being in life into another there a huge time period there where all
kind of my friends dropped away I just didn’t know what was up or down or sideways and yeah there was a deep
period of transition and with that came a lot of of sadness feelings of loneliness isolation but there was this
seed of something new coming like a almost like um um like a caterpillar
turning into a butterfly I mean it’s a kind of a cliche saying and uh we don’t want to use this for uh a transformation
happening and what I found with this sadness is sometimes it just a chance to
rest and you know it stinks because it’s kind of double-edged sword on one sense
um you need I I needed this time alone and a Time on my own own and a time from
away from other people but at the same time that’s not very healthy either all the time when you’re um you know
isolated and it can make it even worse so but then again if we’re if we go if
we force ourselves to be around people when it’s just going to make us feel worse and more estranged so it’s a
really delicate situation and I don’t really have the best answers for it I think it’s on a caseby casee basis and I
will say though that friendship is just absolutely um where it’s at for me
yeah yeah yeah I did hear though that you wanted to belong but you were
excluded and there was no no one would have you actually and it’s that sorrow
and that sort of okay I’ll Harden against it and it’s painful and we’re
sort of squishing down that that thing and we’re going you know what it’s not a problem I’m going to be friends with
those other people but that it’s that that I’m kind of inquiring into and and
so in terms of lengthening attention span I think it’s really interesting to
be able to pull pull it apart just little just
stretch that time not not to go above
it but to allow kind of observing and then
noticing and then allowing it to be so that’s what I think is it sort of stops
the reaction and allows not even a response but just sort of a noticing
allowing being that’s what I think is really beautiful in that sort of space
when it comes to lengthening attention spans but we have not talked about lots
of things that we said we would we okay yes the allowing being is
it’s a beautiful way to put it because it’s hard to really tap into our being
where we’re on the surface level of the heart and mind jumping from one thing to another to really explore just we human
beings I know it’s a spiritual cliche not human doings human beings and the more time we allow ourselves to do
nothing and just be it’s it’s like um it’s a really profound experience that’s
really not valued in our society but it’s uh it’s it’s it’s something you can’t go out and buy an experience you
can’t really go out and buy you know so yes what uh what were the other things
we were going to say that we were going to talk about I mean how do we do this I think the big is the the question how
and uh I want Wendy to probably talk about her uh meta practice right is that
still your main practice my mine is more insight actually um it’s it’s an inqu a gentle
inquiry process where I because I only get half an hour it’s very short
generally except on my in Brisbane there’s now a place where I can sit for a whole day in silence in the company of
other meditators it’s magic so uh but I think kindness is the
foundation to the practice because if you don’t have the kindness to allow whatever to AR rise and go okay
come what may then you know but I only get half an hour so I
usually just sit and it’s you know and then after a while I’ll ask
myself what needs to be known here or what are the themes or
flavors and that helps me stay in where I am
and it and it also allows insight and inqu it’s sort
of an inquiry and I something comes from somewhere else in the mind to come forward so that I guess in terms of
lengthening attention span it’s not a noisy kind of meditation it’s actually quite quiet
it’s full of thoughts and stories but there is a sense that
somehow I’m able to create gaps between the thoughts and there’s this I do get a
sense sometimes there’s a particular feeling in the body or the mind and I’m
like oh what is that what needs to be known here so I find that that helps me
I guess stay with it stay with the med
meditation rather than try and create something which I can’t create
or yeah so that’s that’s where I’m at so you’re the one who do does tons and tons
and tons of meditation these days because you’re always jetting off to some new country going yep I’m going to be three months over here and two months
over there and I’ve got to do a meditation something or other and this that all the rest yeah it’s a little bit
ironic I guess um however this is kind of based on necessity now because I have to legally leave the EU here you know so
I’ve got to go someplace for 3 months before I can come back for another 3 months until we’ve get things uh more
squared away legally here um yeah and this this this light
inquiry practice it it sounds like what I had been doing for for years and uh I
I miss I miss this more free and open meditation what I’ve been doing recently is just the standard s to practice a
really kind of boring dry straightforward thing and and it’s just basically the breath
around the nose uh around the on upon a spot and then when the attention goes bringing it back and it sounds so simple
it is very simple but it’s not easy you know and this trains the mind to stay on
one object over and over and over again and so there is there is a little bit of
wiggle room in the fact that okay well how do I how do how do we how is the
mind how do we how do we how do that accomplished you know and so there’s
still a lot of kind of creativity and bringing forth what needs to be known in order to do that um sometimes it just
won’t stay there not not at all so it won’t work so then there’s times to go into meta which Whitney so rightfully
said this this base base of kindness that needs to be there if I’m just going
to sit there and fume which sometimes that needs to happen too is just bring forth and and feel the anger if there’s
anger there whether it be hardening or hotness you know um or steam or whatever
um and and then sometimes it’s just too subtle and so I have to go with the breath into the entire body and um it
it’s also interesting how insights will just arise on their own you know when
you’re staying with one thing over and over if something really wants to surface and come up it’s almost like
it’s going to once we just we we allow the container to be there then other
times though it will um like it’s this practice of somata it’s said to suppress
the five hindrances I think you mentioned something a little bit earlier about you know there is no root to this
and there are some UNH wholesome Roots though right like greed ill will and
like kind of delusion or ignorance and and these these Notions of of craving
for the wrong things you know craving for things that aren’t going to help us and in other people and then um yeah so
won’t go into all those the notion that um yeah that that that this lengthens
attention spans though so any of this practice that Wendy’s talking about and
I’m talking about I think it goes a long way to kind of clearing things out you
know like you talked about the thoughts and yes they’re they’re there it’s just kind of like the momentum for our day
that just doesn’t go away when we sit down so being kind to that realizing
that that’s just due to causes and conditions of our what we’ve been doing through the day and past actions perhaps
and other factors and things we’re aware of and things that we aren’t aware of and that we can bring a kind attention
to that and work with that in many ways where there be a su to practice or more of an Insight practice like Wendy’s
saying I have always wondered why why bother with the shamata practices I have
spent my whole I don’t know 20 25 years whatever I’m still wondering it too yeah
yeah but the way you described it was actually very lovely because what you’re saying is by by by focusing just on the
breath you are training the mind it is the opposite to using social media in a
way you’re just coming back and then back and then back and then
back and yeah so that’s a very interesting thing and that Insight still
arise anyway when they really really really want to for me I’ve often thought the shamata practices are a little bit
suppressive they are so yeah and kind of quite repressive yeah you go oh that that’s
right that’s that’s what brilliant so they they temporarily kind of almost artificially suppress the five
hindrances and so we know that that’s the greed um ill will and then we’ve got
restlessness and remorse and then um then we’ve got sloth and toror which is
basically kind of drowsiness sleepiness and then we’ve got uh doubt these are
the things that hinder our progress and these can get kind of temporarily
suppressed and then the mind can be like bright and Brilliant and there’s really
no impediments to our attention span and and the mind it can get really
concentrated it’s not kind of where it is but it’s not in the sense that oh I’ve really got to Bear down and
concentrate right it’s kind of like this unification this gathering this colle
ing this calming um this alignment of the mind and heart with the attention
and uh yeah it can get into these beautiful mind States and it can even lead to Janna and absorption and we can
just just is around a traditional meditation object and the breath is just a traditional one there’s all kinds of
other ones meta loveing kindness compat all the Brahma viharas uh ones that are
done casinas you know these are like a colored disc or an element and so these
are like the I forget how many classical meditation objects are in the vuti Maga that are often recommended and they’re
matched up for people’s temperament sometimes with a a meditation teacher but the breath is always there you know
it’s always accessible potentially and one of the things that can be done too in daily life is just whatever our
practice is we can just set the intention to remember this throughout the day like I don’t know with Wendy’s
it might be to just ask the question you know what’s needed now what what needs to be known now what needs to be brought
forth and so that’s like a continuation of the meditation practice through everyday life and that can lead
continuity so especially in the som the more it can go continuously the more chance it has to
build and have momentum and have Effectiveness it it’s said and I’ve noticed that too so just several times
throughout the day I’ll just notice you know where’s the breath at and even more the more I can push it the more I can
recollect it and it also shows how forgetful you know I am and how even
though I want to the mind gets AB uh distracted it gets pulled into other
things other things are seen as more important you know and that’s okay because we have other things to do but
it really gives us a chance to look at our heart and mind like times like other
times we don’t and so the other thing um I wanted to mention maybe is these four
spiritual powers or four roads to power four Su uh roads for
accomplishment uh that we can maybe get into just a little bit but these are these are things that four measures of
success or four ways to success not just in meditation but um any area of life
for any measure of success it said too you know it’s interesting how you
said success instantly I go success I want success I want it I want it give me
give me me I want it first you have to Define what it is is for yourself not what somebody else says it is you said
you said the word success I’m going to be successful I’ve just got to do my four bit more four things for success I
want it I want it I want it tell me what they are that’s funny you mentioned that because I some people I think some
people might say these particular qualities are can be cultivated but I think others say that they just kind of
naturally go along with and strengthen as our the practice goes along and so
I’ll just name them I think Chanda is the first one and I’ll go back to these
then there’s um Viria um um chitta and vanga so the
first one is the still the one that I find I used to find uh way more easy for
some reason and it’s just this wholesome desire you know the the tendency of the
heart and mind in life is to desire I want this I want this I don’t want that
but so instead of fighting that and try to eradicate that Al together what are the really good things to desire right
there are things that can actually benefit us and benefit others you know in the long run and so what are those
things it’s about finding those and really you know using that to our
advantage so I think one of the obvious ones would be um to benefit ourselves and other in other beings especially in
the long term to you know why not shoot for the the moon and realize full
Awakening you know why can’t we have that as a a wholesome desire and a serious one too you know however
unattainable it feels why not you know why limit yourself um I also balance it
with reasonable expectations and not being diluted about it of course right but like what are these really things
that make the heart leap up and sing and even just go into my meditation practice
I’m just not as inspired as I was with it you know actually the hardness in
life I had this incentive you know this this um what is it called um um this
spiritual urgency I I had that so much when I I actually had my life almost
seemly depended on it now that things are okay I don’t have that anymore so yeah let’s talk about this
wholesome desire joha yeah I think this is really good because I think there is something really important
about um the import of delight and joy in the experience and I think Viria
means Joy doesn’t it well it um it can mean that but it means effort in like a
dedication to a dedicate I think no Is It Anyway Viria is is kind of energy and
effort and putting putting putting yeah doing it yeah but then you get the
fruits of it that that yeah so but it’s similar one of the Awakening factors is
Joy you know pity and it’s an energizing Factor it’s right next to Viria too yeah
yeah and I think that you know just we’re talking today about lengthening attention
spans and if if it’s h like I I go to
pades and we’ve got one instructor and she’s like burn hard push I’m going this
is really really really unpleasant and I’m just not enjoying it and so I just
don’t go to her classes cuz I find them so it’s like why would I want to do that
like it’s just doesn’t it’s not fun so maybe there’s a difference between
having fun and and and I think it’s really
important to it is important to apply yourself but there there is this this
urgency I think an urgency to have fun but I think certainly when you take up
something new and you’re maybe not happy you it can be like um device to a tool
to maybe push yourself you I want to be happy actually how do I do it and maybe
that energy isn’t there anymore it’s it’s a more natural gentle soft energy
because you’re still you know darting all over the countryside all over the planet on Retreats so I don’t see any
lessening of it I just see it’s in a new form it’s actually softer Kinder good
thoughtful more appreciative quality rather than a driven quality yeah it’s
it’s a real good point and so what you talk about with fun I think that might fit into the Chanda right this is
something that you have to be to have a desire for something you really want to have to do it you really want it you
know that’s what it comes down to and if you want fun well then you’ll go seek out that quality in something because
yeah the next one is Viria that’s effort will you know um uh in let’s see let me
persistance energy effort and will and for some people that’s not fun you know that’s too much and that turns them off
but if we can find something we’re really interested in and then the key to that is balanced effort right so if we
see like like a a Commando or somebody doing basic training or uh you know some
kind of crazy amount of phys physical effort it’s like oh that’s not me that’s not for me you know that’s right we’re
not we’re not talking about that but if that’s what you want to do well then that’s needed so it it depends on what
it is and then what’s the balanced effort you know what’s the appropriate
amount of energy and effort to put in there and am I too am I putting too much in or am I not putting enough in and
what’s the best way to put in that energy and effort you know uh one of the
classic ways is to get rid of all the effort that’s the states that aren’t helpful and and to keep them from coming
back and then maintain the things that are helpful and then keep generating uh
more States in things that are helpful so it’s kind of a four-fold thing you know get rid of prevent and then
maintain what’s helpful and then and then generate more of what’s helpful and
yeah I think this is it’s a really good point actually having the right amount of effort for that design or what
whatever we success if we want to you know succeed in knitting we’re not going to
be you know uh so it’s it’s the right kind of energy and effort and will so that’s a different type of willpower
that’s needed for weightlifting I would imagine yeah although I don’t know if if
you’ve ever done any weights have you ever done weights I did I was doing um but it was a whole what was it called um
this insane workout that I did years ago now I’m completely blocking uh what it was but it maybe it’ll come up here
weights were part of it yeah but you know what it’s like when you have an aggression towards
weights it it’s like your body is stiff and tense yeah and you actually are are
not in the in the gentleness of it so there is you obviously do need to exert
yourself but if it’s something that is forced then you actually do more injuries to
your body true and I and I think that in terms of lengthening attention spans I
think it’s also really important to bring in uh the capacity to listen to
yourself and notice and be kind to what is here and I my favorite saying of all
time I’m sure I’ve said this before is of the two witnesses trust the principle one so this is a l Jong slogan
and I love this one because there’s two things about that one is you know when
you’re conning yourself so you know when you’re just are you know just ah
slacking off and sometimes it’s really good to slack off but sometimes you’re just kidding yourself you know so you
know when you’re kidding yourself and the other thing I like about it is no one can tell you can go
out seek advice all over the place but no one knows what is right for you only
you do and because you have that inner voice so I love that one and I think there is something really important
about in terms of lengthening attention spans I’ve started when I work with
people is uh 555 five minutes a day five days a week five weeks in a row just to
set up the foundation because if you go more than that it just yeah that’s not
going to work that’s about right and then you can sort of make it longer and longer and longer than that and it takes
a long time like 18 months I had one client she was there for two years I
think and she could only sit 13 minutes a day I was like come on lift it lift it
lift it and she just couldn’t she left she said no I’m done okay so it struck
me that if you don’t if you don’t um
have kindness then you
can’t lengthen your attention span it’s actually kindness towards
yourself a recognition of what is here and knowing when you’re kidding
yourself this is really foundational to lengthening your attention span and
lengthening your duration of meditation it’s beautiful you know it’s U that kind
of tension I mean back before I started all this it was constantly beating myself up but it was the conditioning
that’s what the people that I grew up around and Friends some friends they
just constantly criticized themselves were hard on themselves you know never live never give thems any slack or
anything any kind of uh friendly words or advice and and that goes into what
just seeing what’s here and when we really see that and see how unhelpful that is I’m not saying that’s never
helpful right because if we do get too slack then we’ll just come on you know maybe it’s time to yeah and that’s where
it gets into kidding ourselves you know being honest with ourselves so these three that you just mentioned are so
helpful to balance each other out and I think those go into a measure of success
too I kind of even lay a foundation for doing a lot of things as well and never
mind these these you know four roads of um to power four roads to success and so
yeah even I think what you mentioned there is kind of a more modern-day version before you even get off the
ground and and it’s okay you know we start where we’re at and these are things that need to be addressed and put
into place too yeah and Once the mind really can kind of see see these things
clearly and meditation is a great opportunity to do all this then it’s just like oh wow yeah it’s this huge
realization that it’s it’s easier to correct these these habits and these um
these yeah just that’s all they are I think conditioning and habits of of of
this going on yeah and and I think there can be a kind
of fun in lengthening your attention span in inquiring in becoming a kind of
person you know and it’s very interesting to to be able
to to increase your capacities and that comes from insights
longer sits and and kindness you know that it’s and
people you know as I say to people if about getting angry or whatever it’s like yeah people don’t like you if
you’re like a negative you know my you know Uncle Fred you know he’s
well who likes that person nobody it’s like quick you know duck for cover run the other way you know negative uh Ned
Negative Nancy yeah it’s um as long as it doesn’t go into this toxic POS
positivity but that’s right and we can just feel into this and negative all the time now I get it people have gone
through a lot you know they they have had a hard time we we this this life is not easy you know but it’s like okay
well how much that is actually helping me sometimes it actually helps to be negative some people won’t say crap if
they have a mouthful of it right never speak up never say anything and then keep it all repressed but then we have
the Other Extreme of just you know hey the sun shining you know hey it’s it’s a beautiful day no but you yeah it’s it’s
it’s balancing these extremes you know um so I just move on to the the next one
and the um of chitta but actually vanga
yeah this was always great for me because I I was a nerd right I I love studying the mind and how amazing it was
but then what I found out quick is oh my goodness I put that the expense of
behavior I put that expense of my heart and so then really seeing how much Gunk
was in the heart and how much that fuels um Beautiful Mind States and how when we
address the heart and clear that out then it gives a opportunity for the mind
to become even more bright and Brilliant and explored even more and how our
Behavior impacts all that and how it supports this so that goes into the investigation which is the fourth one
fonga and that’s uh let’s see investigation inquiry discernment
discrimination reason uh discrimination in the fact of knowing one thing from another right reason interest
intelligent curiosity you know feedback and fine-tuning adjustment learning from
doing and circumspection a lot of words there U but the third one is just chitt and
that’s kind of like the heart mind and and I’ve seen definitions for this is heart mind intent Consciousness The
Knowing mind mental development and devoting the mind to something so uh the
yeah I don’t know we don’t have much more time to go into these I think today but yeah these these are just things
that these these four things that that help you know success whether we apply it to
meditation or or things in life but I think even Wendy’s more fundamental things there especially for certain
personality types are really important of not being too down ourselves being kind seeing what’s actually there and
not and being honest with ourselves I mean I think those are even more foundational
yeah yeah I don’t know this must be somewhere in the thing but somebody said
yesterday H I had a a podcast and it didn’t work so and she
said because at the end I always ask you know how did you feel about today’s
conversation and it’s really good because then it opens it up and she said
yeah but you were sincere you actually wanted to know what the answer was so I
told you and I think there is a lot to be said for sincerity of
practice what what is the driver here is it about I’m the best and of course we
all do that we all want to be the best the longest sitter the purest mind da da da you know we’re all kids you know I’m
the bigest I’m better than anybody else I’m better I promise I’m like really
really really good and I’m really good at it you know like that’s just what we do or the other I can never live up to
this so I’m just going to quit or I suck at this I’m so horrible why am I such a horrible person why is such a horrible
meditator I can’t do this this is stupid yeah and and I mean you know I
think that I think it can flipflop actually and and I think that’s why it’s really important to have somebody to
support you to develop a practice whether that’s like oneon-one or whether
that’s in a group I think totally I think what I really appreciate is how lovely it was
to be part of a group and go in for a SE every Saturday morning or whatever it
was and that I found so supportive so supportive for
years you know and yeah you know what it’s like you have a partner now and you
you meditate together I’m sure and every once in a while actually so no this it’s
a really good point so we have to look at our personality types and what what we need in practice too and some of us
um uh do need that and I I’m looking forward to being in a community on Retreat because I don’t get a lot of
that I’m actually usually more solo practice here and then when I’ve had enough of that I’ll be like I’ll be so
glad to get away from that and go back and sit on my beach on my Island and in my little uh container away from any
distractions and stuff so it depends right some people get too dependent on a group situation that they they find that
outside of retreat or outside of community they can’t do it they don’t have the strength to do it on their own
and then you get maybe someone like me who A lot of the times when I go into Community I have to spend most of my
time uh not doing the stuff but actually catering to to PE how people are the way
they do things and how things are expected of me and the formalities and these are all great this is all great
training for me like I’m going to be doing a bowing practice I don’t want to do that so it’s GNA be great practice
you know to do all these formalities that I find kind of tedious but one thing they do is you can see the mind
and how aversive it is to it but also it gives also this great
container where uh you don’t have to worry about all these external things so much you can just watch how the mind um
in fine detail and heart can have these these significant changes because
there’s not a lot of outside distractions and not okay what am I going to do now should I do this somebody’s coming at me with this now I
need to do this and oh I wanted to do this but now I’m G to do that and just all so everything is contained and you
can see more and more subtle details and this unspoken communication and silence
there’s still how we react and respond on more subtle levels with the body
heart and mind and spirit when we can’t talk and so there’s this whole another
level of communication that’s still going on that I often miss because the word words take over the words take more
power and so yeah it’s it’s such a beautiful wherever we’re at it’s an opportunity for practice and growth and
development I think there needs to be a balance um between these two you know where do you need more support do you
need more support in community do you need some more support on your own you know and how do you do that friends
teachers uh and
balance I think you know just this thing about always being on our own it’s such
an unnatural experience for humans you know Hermits the only way they could
experience a solitary life was to be a Hermit in a Hermitage and you couldn’t
be a Hermit in a Hermitage if there were other people there because then it wasn’t a Hermit was
it so I think I think there is it is so
unnatural our life because we are disconnected now often on an island in
outside Copenhagen in Denmark so there’s lots of people
around I take it and walk around and everything well I would say a lot there’s only like two or maybe two 300
400 people on this island it’s a resort island so there’s more in the summer too so it is fairly remote but there yeah
there’s still people here there’s still a ferry running to the mainland you know several times a day so it’s not like
complete isolation you know like survival or Survivor Man or something you know no there there’s people here
there’s Community here you know it’s uh it’s it’s still somewhat modern lifestyle yeah you know I’ve been
thinking a lot and maybe this is something for another day but we live this very unnatural solitary life now
which at some level is lovely because it’s like they don’t irritate me because I get to do whatever I want but then on
the other hand I don’t have I don’t know a sense of connection to much actually
and people use the word community and what does that word even mean anymore
you know maybe you know we use the word sa but actually I think the word
congregation in the way that westerners use it is a better word it’s a more appropriate word that’s not that was
somebody called jetsen kandra rache who said that and I thought yeah actually it is we talk about Community as if it’s
the congregation but really it’s just the congregation it’s just a different format s is the robed
community and I think that’s much wiser where at the end of time though Josh
what a yeah no that’s that this is really good points about this you know I think
it depends on Our intention if Our intention is to kind of hate people and get away from them that’s one thing if
Our intention is I’m just so overwhelmed by the hustle and bustle of meaningless
ESS of consumer culture I just want to you know withdraw for a little bit you
know so it depends on intention but like where are the Quality Connections in life and what’s the best way forward now
for me where I’m at now where I want to be and then how do I factor into what’s going on in the world to this you know
so yeah community and congregation that’s a really good way to put it uh I think maybe this is something we can
explore later but like I said we be going on Retreat so we don’t have anything scheduled there might be one in
December there might not we do we have we have one at the end of January though right so so nothing nothing in November
uh that we yeah so maybe December maybe not so January though yeah New Year
watch this space fantastic Josh great convo all right may you all be well out
there and practice well
Integrating Presence 
14 thoughts on “Lengthening Attention Spans | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #26”