In this twenty-fourth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore fear and courage. What are the pros and cons of fear and courage? How much is too much and how much is enough? How are these best viewed and worked with in mediation and in daily life?
Note: the quote from Martin Luther King, Jr I was trying to remember:
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that.” Hate cannot drive out hate and only love can drive out hate “
And the similar fifth line from the dhammpada:
‘Hatred never ends by hatred. By non-hate alone does it end. This is an ancient truth’
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Fear And Courage | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #24
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
hey Hess welcome Josh depold and this is another meditation
Q&A and I’m just waiting a few minutes for uh Wendy to arrive let plan anyway
and go live on Instagram and it looks like it’s okay to go live on Instagram
now and yeah so today we have this topic of fear and courage and let me just read
the um description here and this 24th
installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the
cushion we plan to explore fear and courage what are the pros and cons of
fear and courage how much is too much and how much is enough how are these
best viewed and worked with in meditation and in daily life
well hey Miss re M Reed how’s it going uh got your uh comment here in the
studio and restream well I don’t know where Wendy’s at but it’s definitely
different without her so I just got to get started here
um well for one thing if if we’re in a situation like this when we have
expectations right and um they don’t get fulfilled is
there well likely there’s a kind of disappointment right off the bat and then that disappointment can can
potentially turn into I don’t know agitation
um the the mind can really spin out all over the place it can say well did I do
anything I wonder what’s going on is everything okay and then some people can
jump into to fear I imagine like they call it catastrophizing like but where
does all this start to begin with and I would say the expectation itself right
um so having expectations that oh things will just happen this way and and if but
we know that life is uncertain right so is there an alternative to to doing um
to to living without expectation um now this is not to say that there’s
not goals that we have goals or we just kind of have a general sense of how
things operate um but then we have there’s I think there’s a couple
kinds of expect expectations there’s things that operate in the background that we’re not really aware of that we
just kind of assume and take for granted that will be there and happen a certain way and this is kind of based on um
habit patterns and just past experience right um unless something very strange
happens we just kind of assume certain things will be the way they are but that’s not the case either and then
there’s the the more Insidious kind where we just we have to have something a certain way or it’s not okay and those
are the ones that are more easily worked with yes discernment absolutely and uh
that the the wisdom to know the difference to discern between things
yeah corrupt says uh is probably not an appropriate comment here um she hasn’t
showed up yet um okay
so fear and courage um I know that at least for me fear was
a huge thing during a lockdowns right and it seems like a lot of a lot of this has been completely forgot about um what
happened uh during the lockdowns you know and Miss Reed says before I get to that Miss Reed says real
time presence not being too strict yeah this is really important so um having a
an openness to meet something with openness as long as our boundaries are being respected right meet meeting
something with openness and being present for it instead of already living
in the future about a potential result or our expectations uh our
meeting getting things and getting our expectations met in the future already
living there right and then we don’t arrive there then we can um be disappointed and all the the
other things that happen you know this spiritual question how am I when things don’t go my way it’s a really good
question okay so the but yeah in the the best way to meet
that is with presence in the present moment if we can right fears during the lockdowns um and
know this is controversial and wherever you fall on the kind of divide or the
the things that people were kind of pushed into during this time you’re either this camp or that camp
um both camps I think were under a tremendous amount of fear um
and yeah that I find was kind of the most dangerous thing about it as we know
fear can really run down the immune system too uh I’ve got this quote I found from Jimmy Stewart fear is an
Insidious and deadly thing it can warp judgment freeze reflexes breed mistakes
worse it’s contagious so I don’t know I guess it could be an
Insidious and deadly thing um I don’t know how far that’s pushing it warp
judgment yeah um usually um when we’re in a fear State we don’t have access to
our highest wisdom freezes reflexes we know that from the fight flight or
freeze and it can breed mistakes um we don’t we’re not really
concerned about kind of being having integrity and operating in
a way that’s safe and I don’t know conducive thorough to how we usually
operate so mistakes are okay but I don’t think that’s what he’s referring to here
and then the contagion of fear that’s an interesting one I don’t know if science can prove that one but I wonder if we
can actually see that in our daily Liv lives right um if you have a boat full of
people uh you just have one you just have more and more people in fear but it can be the opposite too you can have one
courageous person and then that can be inspiring for another and then
eventually there’s a Tipping Point and um that Tipping Point can be um Can can change so now how all the
Dynamics of that work I’m not entirely sure Donald Kella says I found lockdown
comforting the state took control in a time of year and Chaos um in a in a in a time of fear and
Chaos okay well uh Donald I’m interested in knowing what part of the world you’re
in and um you know this is a good point too so it the the lockdowns weren’t
obviously all bad uh the I I think a lot of good came from these in a sense that
a lot of people had were forced to to to look at themselves look at their habit
patterns and go inside themselves and say okay I can’t keep going on the way I’ve been going on now I’m confronted
with not doing the things I usually do so this sent a lot of people into soul
searching um it I’m sure it sent some people into internal crisis um I guess
some people might have gotten of course this is all gure right I didn’t have the thorough scientific examination or
scientific poll asking people this is just uh from my um what I what I
observed a little bit and heard other people say some people you know might have got completely lazy and just said
okay screw this I’m just GNA sit on the couch all day and eat um potato chips
who cares you know um life outside is hard I’m just going to you know who
cares um so and everywhere in between so yes and this is a notion
Donald brings up of responsibility right sometimes yes things can get U very
chaotic and we we don’t want the responsibility of of making hard
decisions and so we we have other people do that and sometimes some of us are in a state where we um the decisions we
make they have dire consequence and they could lead to uh really hard
repercussions and it’s just easier to have someone else make those choices um
and I think that’s that’s totally okay if we’re out of our ball out of our league out of our you know if it’s out of our ballpark out of our wheelhouse at
the same time I have to encourage self-responsibility you know we have to
look um inside and say no one else is responsible for my actions um what am I
going to do you know yes we were put in a certain situation where uh we kind of had limited capacity um for operating in
the world um in certain regards uh compared to what we were used to however there are some people out
there that tested the waters and that took a lot of Courage because as we saw
overnight the kind of entire world population uh was locked down we never
even saw that coming before you know I could have not imagined my wildest dreams how quickly the the state of the
world changed overnight now I also saw a lot of people that were taking that um
courage too far and were badmouthing people um blaming shaming um acting in
inappropriate ways um not really having concern for themselves safety because
they their their their freedom and Independence felt violated so I saw a lot of misbehavior in that camp as well
so um you know it’s really a complex issue and I think it’s this has all been
swept under the rug pretty much and we don’t really have um you know it’s not encouraged to
really kind of U process and and DEC debrief and talk about you know the the
again social situations the internal situations psychological situations social situations all this stuff so I’ll
go back to the comments here um uh Donald says I am in Ireland we had one
of the most strict lockdowns in the world world it was also prolonged than elsewhere okay thanks Donald Miss Reed
says lockdown was a created fear they made it so we could face our fear it’s
like they create the chaos to create the peace solution okay so this one yeah there’s
um some people that talk about problem reaction solution and uh if you’re not familiar
with this I’ll I’ll just mention real briefly and I’m not saying this is scientifically proven thing but there’s
some people that claim um drawing on history and looking at certain situations that a problem is actually
artificially created I’m not saying this was or not I’m just saying this is a template um that some people claim has
been used and then then then reaction is that then people will react for that
they’ll say oh this is so horrible we want something done about it we H somebody has to do something about this
and then the solution which actually uh went along with the problem so the
solution was actually in place before the problem was even instigated and so they use the reaction saying oh you want
something us something to do about it well then jump in here and uh here we’ve
got the solution for you and so this is um how they kind of um it said this is
how they kind of control how um how they do things and Wendy just texted me I’m glad I texted her and
uh and uh I’ll just say it’s okay come
on in all right and
then Donald says um oh let me just finish with Miss Reed’s comment here
lockdown was uh created fear they made it so we could face our fear it’s like they create the chaos to create the
peace solution I think that’s a great way to look at it too um hey Wendy how’s it going I’m so sorry I saw oh I don’t
have your voice I don’t I can’t hear you can’t hear you can you hear me um
check your audio oh actually it’s funny never mind okay say something
again H I can hear you I can hear you yes I’m so sorry I had it in my mind
that it would be starting in 45 minutes time and I was on a pH phone called I having a lovely chat with somebody I
didn’t know and I just lost time I’m so sorry um but look at how many comments
you’ve got you’ve got more than usual hi Miss
read um so we we got right into the uh the lockdowns and Donald says um or well
let me let me address if it’s okay Wendy I’ll just uh address um uh misreads here
so says the lockdown created fear they made it so we can face our fear it’s like they create the chaos to create the
peace solution and I love this shift of perspective instead of some people saying that you know um it was actually
planned and they create fear and control people I can see that perspective too but why not make the best of it like um
like Miss Reed says and turn it back and say okay well now we have an opportunity to practice with fear you know what am I
going to do about it it it’s here you know people are afraid I’m afraid I remember
uh there was a two-month uh kind of a period during the whole thing where it was like Peak fear for me and it was
just off the charts and it was a great time to practice you know and meditation practice helped me quite a bit with that
uh so it was um it really I could see that run down the immune system like I
said earlier and Donald says I feared covid I didn’t have the education to question it
I needed State experts to advise me well that’s an interesting one you know like
I say I I I I refrain from commenting about this whole thing on a scientific level because to feel confident I would
need to know microbiology immunology virology and genetics and I don’t know
any of those things so I looked at kind of the mainstream camp and then I looked at the alternative science camp and um
yeah let’s just let’s just keep it there I don’t want to get political and I know we don’t want to mention certain words
on this because we will get potentially still get censored on on YouTube I I I I
want to kind of um focus on the thing that we can address here and that’s more the kind of meditative psychological
aspect of fear and courage because the other thing is just way above my payg grade so that’s why we’re going to kind
of mention the fear and courage that we can so Wendy uh what do you how did you
how did you deal with all this during those times and um how did your meditation practice come into it so so I
was in Western Sydney uh in an area called black town and it was one of the
most lock down areas in uh in
Australia um not the because Melbourne had more lockdowns than than where I
was I I felt for me I appreciated the lockdowns
I wasn’t going to work so it wasn’t a problem and I I actually just felt that somebody was more interested in my
well-being than they were about making a lot of money and so for me I felt
reassured by by the lockdowns it wasn’t particularly Pleasant I wanted to go out
like everybody I guess I’m a home Budd but I I
have [Music] um I think that for
me I would rather feel that somebody is interest Ed in my
wellbeing and take that perspective that me important yeah and
for that that’s my well-being one of the things I’ve been thinking about is is social anxiety and
how you know we get caught in this I feel judged and I am the judge and then
there’s this social anxiety that sits between the two of those that causes this huge conversation
about what will people think of me and it’s it is difficult to know how
to respond and I basically think that
whatever we did during the pandemic was stuff that we do anyway but just on a
more magnified level so it is a really good opportunity I think I’ve mentioned
another time in one of our conversations ages ago where I was living in another
country and I was finding it really hard to make friends and so I just decided
that I would do lots of dharm study lots of practice really engaged with it and I
was it wasn’t a particularly happy time but it was a time where I could really
work with my mind and it helped me not only then but much later so I I
found it you know I I recently was thinking about it
and I can’t remember if I talked about this last time Josh
but I realized that you know so as a child I was locked in my room my parents had this very old-fashioned way of
thinking about punishment well if you just lock somebody in their room you
aren’t hitting them so it’s not violence so they just were raised in a different
era and I realize now that I could go anywhere in that room but I could never
leave that room and but I still had freedom to move within that room and I think the way
that we live our lives now is that we have freedom to move within our room
which is our mind but we can never Escape out of that until we have done
the inquiry and until we have looked at the voices our social anxieties that
keep us caged in yeah wow uh that’s a huge thing so
we’ve got the the the the care or perceived care during the lockdowns and
then I want to touch on that briefly and then this notion of how um basically our childhood kind of
condition plays a condition ality and especially the specifics you mentioned so you know um I I wonder about this
Wendy and and it’s it’s okay what I I think if um if these officials I I
really think there’s a lot of good people in official Dum but there’s also a lot of bad apples as we know right and
so what I think happened regardless of of that because I know that or it seems
to be that a lot of the companies certain companies made a lot a lot of money during this and and a and a lot of
uh smaller businesses from what I understand at least in the states actually got pushed out uh during this
so that aside what it did though is it gave people a container um like you’re
saying to then go Inward and offer um a reinforcement of whatever was perceived
there as care right so you perceived uh that as care um and some people
perceived it differently some people perceived it as I’m being um I’m kind of uh subject to tyranny you
know I we’ve got one group of people saying one group of adults saying you can’t I’m in control now you have to do
what we say because of X Y and Z be it legitimate or not right so so either way
um I’m I’m my heart is warmed by the fact that you felt nourished and had the
opportunity to do that and I’m I’m glad that so many people did actually that so so many people did find it helpful and I
did too because I like you say we Wendy just demonstrated that she had been
prepared early on for something like this to happen so it wasn’t it didn’t seem like a huge change for you same way
with me I didn’t go out and do a bunch of things I was just kind of going to the grocery store going to parks and I
was still able to walk in my neighborhood safely too and um uh you know and I actually traveled a little
bit because the it was it was allow and um there was hardly anybody at the
airport right and it was really inexpensive of course I it was within America at the time um so that’s there
that we have you know these different perceptions about what happened and that we can provide ourselves with that
nourishment too and then we can like Wendy was saying we can draw on these perceptions of of our caregivers right
be they wherever they may be whether they be closer to us um uh you know this
notion of calling on our spiritual Entourage right these people we really respect that are kind of spiritual
mentors and we can draw on their kind of kindness and wisdom um with perceptions
and wherever that may be these support systems now the things Wendy’s talking about as a as a child in punishment I
had the kind of the exact opposite where I was in a rural area and I roamed around and was never really made to go
to my room and so much but I was uh spanked you know and unfortunately you
know it was um I would never advise that as a parenting technique to anyone you
know um unfortunately it was still kind of common back in that era I wouldn’t call it abuse but you know maybe it was
but it would say the more challenging thing was the emotional aspect uh coming
up in the world you know uh it’s it’s family life can be hard for some you know and um schooling in social
situations is even harder for a lot of people and I know this social anxiety uh was quite a thing and I I I don’t think
it’s totally uncommon especially when people are coming of age I think it’s quite uh um a common thing actually um
when we’re coming of age in this this this this social thing we’re always worried about where we fit in you know
and being introverted like I was uh you know not really wanting to interact engage with world and I I don’t and in
some people even look down at that they they say oh they’re they’re so introverted like it’s some kind of bad
thing and I don’t think it necess really has to be either and especially to judge and blame yourself for being how you are
I don’t find that very helpful either so but this this notion that Wendy talks
about and I I think it’s a good metaphor too for meditation practice of kind of
yeah you’re you look out there in the world right and kind of okay is this it is this all there is right by the time
you’re in your 20s you kind of have a bead on a lot of the world in the sense of the the the regularities of life you
you know you’ve got the the work the relationship the the house um you know eat sleep repeat basically and you know
and maybe you take a break and then you go on vacation and then you do it all over and for some people that works
great I’m not knocking that in particular but for me I was just like that’s it really there’s got to be more
than that and it wasn’t until I started going in you know that realized oh no that’s not all there is this there’s so
much more to this experience this heart this mind this body complex so
yeah um one thing I would say is that your response to the pandemic I think is
also greatly culturally driven and also a disposition to how you respond to
Authority so if you tend to be defiant of authority the lockdowns will
be will be experienced as um you know
enforced lockdown but for somebody who perhaps has a more compliant
personality then actually maybe that’s
that’s not going to be a problem so it just depends I think on how you see
authority figures I thought it was a really good opportunity to look at your own mind as it happens I wrote to our
state Premier in New South Wales gladus barlean um who is the who was the
governor at the time during pandemic and I just wrote to her and the head of the
Department of Health and I just said you m you must have your bodies must you must be really
tired by now because it had been going on by this stage for what a year and a half or something so you just must be
all really exhausted working all the time having to think about these emergency meetings and just to say thank
you to you and the team for just doing your best in these very extenuating
circumstances and I got a reply back and actually the premier had written you
know thank you wend dear Wendy as opposed to Dear Miss Nash
and thank you for your kind words they just appreciated the kindness of my
sentiments that they too were human they too are human yeah it’s really important Wendy
and uh even though you know yes I would say that I have been B with authority
but what I did see during this uh time for for that camp and I mentioned this earlier before you came on there was a
lot of misbehavior there was a lot of unnecessary Defiance in the wrong ways right I’m all for people speaking out
and questioning things and and and speaking power to Authority but it needs
to be done in a kind way otherwise it’s not going to be helpful otherwise it’s going to feed into the same thing that
they’re actually trying to address you know um you know I I until I actually meet
someone in power it’s basically speculation until I sit down and have a meal with them or chat with them it is
kind of like this um figure that I see in the media and that’s it you know so I
love Wendy’s uh thing with this so regardless of their their knowledge of
what was going on how much classified information they might have had to know what was possibly going going on behind
the scenes how much potential money they may have been make I’m not and I’m not accusing anybody I’m just saying you
know hypothetically for people in power you know the the the corruption that some have or some are faced with
regardless of all that you know I feel that it’s best take the high road in any of this regard you know how do we how do
we we we um speak to power well of course like Wendy says Not only was is
Wendy respectful but she’s kind right and she realized is that they are too a
living being and that they’re deserving at the very least of dignity and it just
it’s it’s so great to see Wendy’s default of of kindness and respect and honor and I know I still have a lot to
uh learn with that when it comes to certain authority figures um you know and yeah I I go ahead so I actually have
quite a lot which I guess we’re changing Tac about from Fear because you have to be Fe I think we fear we fear something
that is bigger than us that we don’t have resources for so and and I think
Authority is often that sort of place I actually have now quite a lot to
do with politicians and I meet them at Council uh which is our municipality our
town and um I have a lot to do with the police
Minister here in my state and I have a lot to do with the Fed Federal
member and they’re just people they’re just people and some of them I warm to
more readily but some of them I I have more challenges with you know but what I
see is that actually when you have a walled heart that makes you hard so your heart
is a wall so if you’re uh if you’re a politician who likes to build walls
against certain people to keep some people in and some people out that is we
were talking my husband and I we were talking about how that reflects the hardness of the heart how much the heart
has been walled around and I thought that was a really interesting thing and we don’t know why
that is some people have harder Hearts but I think that babies come into this
world generally speaking with a lot of
a lot of love a lot of kindness and you know these people by
the time I meet my counselors and my elected representatives they’re what 30
40 45 50 55 whatever they they’re the same age as me
certainly and they have history and we are all wounded so I’m always really
curious about how can I work work with not the behavior that is acted out but
how can I see the person who is wounded that’s always my goal that’s my goal and
how can I love that person who has been wounded because you know what does it
saying you know the quote from the DAP part hatred never ceases is never ceased by hatred only love will cure hatred
what’s the correct phrase do you know no yeah that’s right there’s there’s different interpretations the ones I like is U you know um hat yeah hatred
never ceases by hatred Only Love Can or uh the other one I like to is is um ill
will can never overcome ill will only non-ill will can overcome ill will this is eternal and ancient law you know it’s
just like Martin Luther King’s basically said the same thing right he said something like um oh why forget now the
quot quote but it’s very similar to that and it it really is you know if we if we think that we’re going to have we see
all this stuff in the world and we think that we’re going to try to overcome it with the same energy it’s just not going
to work you know it it doesn’t we have to it’s a vicious cycle you know it’s
this victim victimizer bully victim you know and then hoping for a hero but no
we have to break that cycle and and change the energy change it into one of
non-ill Will and that’s the only way that vicious cycle I feel can stop and it’s so great Wendy that you have
interface and local local politicians I guess what I was thinking of this kind of uh Force like in Washington right
this this machine this political machine um you know and that uh I’m just I don’t
know how it works in Australia but you know this this uh money that’s behind them because they’re just kind of bought
and paid for by lots and lots of money that’s as far as I know these super packs they’re Anonymous we don’t even
know where the money comes from who they’re pay masters are you know who they’re beholden to and I feel that a
lot of them get in there for really good reasons and then if they want to continue there they kind of have to play
ball now I’m oversimplifying I’m not saying that’s always the case and I’ve I’ve uh I saw some interesting um
stories and comments by few congressmen and women too uh but for for the most
part I I personally don’t get involved in in politics especially on that level but I’m I’m I’m heartened to see Wendy’s
cause in that she’s actually going with people that she can meet you know it’s not some uh you know face on a screen
that we can’t have access to she’s in pretty much embedded with with politicians and and seeing them as human
beings and and um uh interfacing to to work with them for her causes and yeah
so that’s different but the the most important thing here is what Wendy said is this this this trauma this
woundedness we’ll just call it I like that word woundedness instead of trauma trauma almost seems kind of climic
clinical and maybe not apply to me because that’s too severe or something like that right but this woundedness you
know having our heart ache quiver hurt you know and then even on the most subtle levels this I like this notion of
uh there’s a thing in the suta is like a poem one of the few poems that Buddha wrote I think or is attributed to that
there’s a there’s like a a thorn Lodge deep in the heart that’s difficult to
discern and once we can get to that thorn in the heart then we can have more ease and peace we
can wander in more ease and peace and we can settle down with more ease and peace and it it really is kind of a liberation
of the heart um I like this notion of the heart’s true release you know as a
kind of the synonym for Liberation and uh Enlightenment this type of thing because it it really is we’re we’re kind
of releasing the in a true manner the hearts the heart of hearts you know its
release and from from stress you know basically yeah
speaking of stress I just want to mention Donald mentioned here the lockdown in Ireland has resulted in huge
numbers still fighting for the right to work from home did it create or expose an anxiety of interacting with
colleagues and I think that’s a really interesting point because I was speaking with somebody this
morning um who does Research into Urban Design and this sort of the space
between your home and the street and what and I talked about this thing where
we go from a box which is the home and then you go into the box which is the car to the box which is the shops the
box which is the work or the gym or the school or whatever it is and then we go
from one box to the other and I think we’re now so separated out and even when
you go for a walk people have earbuds in and you can’t even talk to people
because they’ve they’ve got earbuds or they’re they’re on their phone or they’re listening or whatever it is so
still there is separation separation and and I think what that does is create more fear of the unknown I don’t
have control over it I don’t have control over it so we had a a friend here recently and beautiful friend of
mine she has a disability though and she loves to tidy up and we just I didn’t
have the heart to say I don’t want you to clean up but she wouldn’t ask where things would go and and I wasn’t quite
sure where they would land and how do we manage it and what would happen and it wasn’t unpleasant she wasn’t rude or
mean or awful like that but we had no control actually about what would happen
and it was like okay one more sleep and then she goes and it was about my
anxiety about not being able to control the situation so to answer or to respond
into Donald’s sort of statement his comment did it create or expose an anxiety of
interacting with colleagues I think that for some people it’s a real need you know particularly women who they they
have a lot of domestic burdens and that’s it’s just more practical and
causes a whole lot of other problems but I think that I think it did
exacerbate our wedge that we can too readily step into
to widen to say I want to be separate I don’t want to I don’t want to experience
any discomfort in my life anymore yeah this is a really important
thing Wendy um this notion of boxes I think it’s a great metaphor and the
comfort zone so get to that I’m actually I have a box well our our computers are boxes too right how many me include in
our screens are a type of box I actually literally have my laptop here on a box to to get it higher but it is a really
great metaphor and I make sure that I have U things that I could hear the surrounding with with earphones and I
don’t have the wireless ones so people can’t I don’t know how many times I’ve been talking to people and I didn’t see that they have this little Wireless
earbud in like an agent I guess I’m too old school but they can at least see here and you know and I can hear from it
and a lot of times I will take one out and when I walk by someone to know that hey I’m open to to being in the real
world here not just a virtuality in my head uh so um it’s it’s a really good
point and this notion of um yeah getting into creating a more of a sense of a
false comfort zone and expectations you talked about the anxiety of your your friend over and I talked about that
before you came on and how having expectations and not having them met can lead to kind of um you know at the very
least being upset or you know agitated or annoyed that our expectations aren’t
met all the way down to all this uh to the root kind of fear and yeah how much did these lockdowns create like a a
comfort zone that we now don’t want to get out of for some of us you know and but then how many people thought oh wow
how much should I take my life for granted you know I could just kind of go do anything I wanted now I can’t so I’m
not going to take that for granted again you know I wonder about this division in people and then what about people that
it kind of brought these two into more balance and Alignment it’s really interesting kind of uh social experiment
and psychological effect it had on folks so I had somebody come on to our podcast
from my community group I have a podcast and I had the world’s sort of number one
kind of person in it and he’s a social scientist and he was so interesting was
the most interesting way of thinking about things because we we’re obviously
wanting to get more people biking and walking and taking public transit and all this and he said don’t talk about
bicycles or cars or Transit just talk about uh well you you know you go to the
doctor and and you can tell tell the doctor there’s this everybody knows there’s this loneliness epidemic talk
about how when you have more connections on the street you reduce loneliness it’s
not the only thing that causes loneliness but it’s a a factor the other thing that he also talked about is you
know you by Nature you when you try and understand how something
is you can’t include everything something has to go so what do you let
go actually in that trying to par it all out you know how do
you how does that that that work where do you decide this stays that
goes what do you include what do you exclude and what is the cost of what you
exclude so for instance with cars there’s a huge number of externalities
that people don’t have any idea that they pay for actually so we have free
parking for instance it’s not free oh you’re Curbing and guttering someone
pays for that it’s me I don’t have a car yet I pay for your Curbing and guttering
so and all the externalities of obesity and um respiratory disease and the fish
that are killed and the wildlife that are killed and by cars and it’s very interesting when you start to try and
figure out where is the edge of something you can’t and I think this is going back to the Dharma the Buddhist
teaching the idea of everything is dependent on everything
else and everything is connected to everything else you can’t so
simply Define it and also whether it’s good or bad depends on the context and
the perception of how you relate to that so I do I don’t know that I’ve answered
Donal your thing did it create or expose an anxiety interacting with colleagues I think we have a lot of social
anxieties because we don’t know how to have s we don’t know to how to relate to people anymore and I think that that’s
something we lost when we decided that we were separate and that we weren’t we
didn’t have responsibility with I think we lost good what I call emotional
manners and how do we regain our emotional manners and maybe that’s why the mindfulness movement whatever you
may think of of that actually is beneficial for improving your emotional
manners I haven’t heard that term before I love that Wendy I’m G remember that use it’s great uh because I’m always
turned off by like hoyy toyy table manners a lot and but I I do feel like kind of a a neanderthal sometimes around
people that are very well trained in table manners and things like this but the emotional manners I think are far
more important right of course how we meet the world how we relate to the world how kind to ourselves and others
compassionate to ourselves and others what it’s called for and you you mentioned there and going kind of going backwards here the this notion of how we
relate to things whether it’s good or bad I would I maybe I would just say it a little bit differently because then if
people take that too far then there’s no good or bad in the world it’s all kind of how I am with it and yes how I am
with it is probably more important but I would think as a simple guide it would be non-harm right the reduction of har
in the world and then of course we can’t just have that’s my that’s how I see not
it is or it isn’t no we we we’re in relation with the world and other people right so that’s how we judge and we can
get whether something is harmful right through close attention through other people but how we relate to whatever
that is yeah go ahead Wendy you want to say something yeah I just you know we
are we are always in a place of harm actually because because when you buy
fruit and vegetables from the grer a lot of that is made with slavery all our
equipment you know our it and everything like that the lithium all that’s made with slavery and excruciating harm if
you ever buy flowers for your fiance then that those flowers are grow and you
buy them from the supermarket I mean all that’s terrible slavery and awful conditions you can’t
can’t actually Do no harm right this is a very good point Wendy and so we can
look at it like if if that’s a perception we’re starting with then I would say harm reduction right there
there’s choices we do have I don’t have a vehicle right now first time I I got rid of mine first time since I was 16 I
don’t need one here in Europe right um then then what with the other thing you said with the the the food well the food
right we’ve got an apple tree right outside the window so that when I every time I I take an apple from that that’s
one less thing that I have to buy from the store that I know where it’s coming from there are choices we can make to
reduce harm and what Wendy I think is pointing out is the care right the car
is enough to to know about these things to not turn a blind eye to be oblivious
to that our choices do matter in life we do we are faced with choices that some are more harmful than others right and
so we we take the notion to choose when we can less harm ful choices we create
we go out of our way to create conditions that Foster less harm right so yeah this absolute thing of no harm
yes and Our intention behind it is is the most important right because if we
act with intention to harm then that’s a problem right if if if if inadvertent
harm happens and we have no awareness uh of it but then we’re it’s pointed out to
us well then we can correct our behavior and make a different choice so that’s why it’s very important I feel to to to
be aware uh of our choices and the intent we’re having behind our choices as well now it doesn’t get us off the
hook just saying oh I’m going to you know um this will be for everybody’s good and then I just go out and harm
someone right it doesn’t work like that either so that’s a little bit uh cha or psychotic something like that it’s not
what I mean either um so it’s it’s the intentions behind your actions and
really quick with the the comment the guy you had on your podcast I think it’s a brilliant thing
of you know um what uh we tell people what we’re for instead of what we’re
against you know the they say some people say the unconscious mind doesn’t know the the negative so like when you
tell kids uh stop running they they don’t really hear the stop so much and
they just keep running you you say instead you say slow down we bring the solutions like you’re talking about you
we focus on the solutions and not just dwell on the problems that don’t really have Solutions in fact some people say
only mention the problems if there’s an offered solution that goes with it and more times than not there’s always some
kind of solution to the the challenges we’re facing and then I can’t stress enough
about how we relate to all this too so that’s where meditation I think can H help so much too because no matter how
it is how are we with it you know yeah I’m gonna somebody’s at the door I’m
really sorry I’ll get you to R all things they just been you knows so sorry I’ll read some comments
please go yeah and I will read some comments here U Miss Reed says um back here yeah I
make good use of the time no excuse to say I had no time to do XYZ we all had time to do the little
things and this was from a past comment um when we were talking about the
lockdowns and then miss Reed says yeah good and bad all over yeah the
rich got richer that’s a shame but it taught me that we all need a way to make money hopefully in harmony with life no
greed fear Etc yeah people were forced to to look at their ways of doing things
and and how they earn money and how they um yeah work in things and then here is
the comment Wendy just addressed um and all right and so Wendy
yeah I got I caught you in a comment did you remember what you were going to you were going to say here it was about the
expert and the relating to things yeah I I guess I felt for a long time
really guilty because I was creating her and it is really hard
to realize that it doesn’t matter what you do you’re always going to be creating harm that’s the thing that’s
what I want to drive home and to Bear witness to the harm that we we create
actually cuz we do live in a system which has harm so yeah at its
foundation the minute one person is seen as a as a resource as a human resource
you have a system which by its nature creates harm this is really important Wendy and
um I want to talk too about the the healthy kinds of fear and this is the way I feel that there can actually be a
fear of wrongdoing right that now I’m talking about the not the subtleties in
the overall system where we only have so many choices but that we this this
healthy fear of of wrongdoing of intentionally harming and hurting which will only hurt us too so that’s a kind
of healthy fear I think we should have because uh if we look at some of our choices in the past for some of us we
know we’ve taken certain choices with certain intent and it had a certain outcome and so then we know that way
goes so it it in those instances it’s healthy to have a fear I feel to not do
that again now I’m not talking about being in Terror of um having everything
in my life right and that I’m so in fear that thing that’s going to happen to me again that’s not what I’m talking about
I’m talking about a thing that that governs um our our our speech and behavior that’s for our benefit and for
the benefit of others and but like Wendy says there is so much you know this is an imperfect realm right that just by
its very nature there are things that need to prey on others to survive you
know they’re they’re at every level so to how do we not get disheartened by this all the exploitation all the
corruption you know all the harm that’s every day if we look close enough we’ll see right so this is a perception we
have too and I’m not saying delude ourselves to pretend that it’s not there no on the contrary this is um we we see
things as they actually are and then what do we do about it right do we fall into a pit of despair do we pretend it’s
not there and wear roast colored glasses no I I feel that one of the the best ways to to do is actually see things
where they are and uh work with the the choices we have the effort we have to
create the conditions to reduce that harm to act with intention and that we
we are presented with sets of choices in our lives and which is the best way which is the best choice in any given
moment without getting overwhelmed by our sense of responsibility and that we’ll make mistakes right because it is
a practice but which Which choice do I have that will bring the least amount of harm to me and everyone else which Which
choice will actually Foster well-being for myself and all beings everywhere in the environment we live in you know um
so so Wendy’s right and I remember the the Buddha praised a lot of the Jane religion from what I remember for a lot
of things but one of the things he said is that it’s just too extreme like they wouldn’t they would hardly ever move
because they didn’t want to kill like tiny tiny insects everywhere he said that’s too extreme you can’t really the
quality of life around that what really matters our is our intent we don’t go stomping outside trying to kill every
insect we see right that would be not proper and uh it would be kind of
pointless and waste a waste of time and energy anyway you know but if we just happen to step on something without you
know um that’s going to happen like Wendy says we’re just just by our very nature we’re going to cause harm but
it’s how is the heart does the heart want to do that you know how much effort are we giving our choices to reduce as
much as possible you know to to to create conditions Foster conditions for uh well-being and that of
others yeah I think I think it’s really I think it’s you
know life is painful yes life is really
painful it is painful that’s the first thing you got to know about life he’s
really painful yeah and we won’t if you’re in a human skin suit here there’s no way
you’re going to get through life without experiencing pain in of story there’s no argument around that
there’s certain pains that were we were just born into and that I have to experience and then there’s the extra
layer of psychological pain on top of it that we can address right the two the the two
arrows right but I think you know going back to the thread before I came on and I’m so sorry I got my times mixed up see
I you know flawed being you know you know and just um you know you
were saying before you know don’t make the same mistake twice I thought next time I have to really double check what the time is cuz I had in my mind it was
as I said an hour later than it was so um it three times now it’s it’s now you’ve got that out of the way don’t
have to worry about that any the anxiety around that anymore who cares you’ve done that bought the T-shirt went home right exactly exactly um but there is
something about uh trying to a we sort of avoid
feeling into life for the fear I I must say I’m very happy about Miss Reed’s
engagement today I think us me coming in late actually has been really beneficial
to that comments because I just love what she’s writing she’s writing she’s really engaged with it it’s so
beautiful but there is what I realized is that I spend a lot of my time trying
to avoid the reality that I am going to
experience pain and so that’s what I really want to
step into is that you know the truth is you there’s going to be
pain and it might be regret or remorse and you go yeah I’m going to
learn from that lesson I made a mistake look at the clock next time um it may
be um the way you use a tool whatever
but but there is also a desire to
avoid stepping into that which is uncomfortable and unpleasant and living
life slightly to the side for the fear that a pain may
arise and that’s I think really hard that’s where I think the edge is how do
you step into life knowing that you will actually
feel pain I mean you’re going to feel pain but you actually have to step into that it s goes against as my my
partner’s son was in the Army and he said you know only a crazy person goes
towards someone who’s going to kill you you know like why would you do that it’s completely against human
nature so there is something about where you kind of have to be that Soldier
Warrior going towards that which is so painful to not
be afraid of that pain and that’s what we haven’t spent any time on courage and
but this is a beautiful way and let me just clear up some confusions on this because it’s it’s fourfold right we can
go into things that are painful and that are beneficial for us that’s what and
others that’s what we’re talking about here we’re not talking about the things going into painful situations that
aren’t beneficial for us and that aren’t beneficial for anyone else so let’s make that clear right but there there’s the
opposite you so let’s just I’ll just leave it at that because we’re talking about facing the pain that we’re
avoiding and trying to numb out or distract ourselves from that we would actually benefit from turning towards it
looking at it and going into it and going through through it in order for our own welfare and happiness and
benefit in that of others and the the environment around us as well we’re not talking about kind of nihilistic okay I
want to just go any kind of pain screw it all and it’s actually going to make things worse of course I’m we’re not talking about that but there’s the
discernment to know the difference because we have to have the discernment to know the difference of when to go into pain and what type in some pains
they aren’t healthy to go into are certain situations that that cause pain and and stuff like that so well with
that Wendy I think we’re about ready to wrap any other words on Courage too
you know there is a there’s a word people often use uh bravery and courage
the same way and they’re very different words so bravery is related to the words
bravado sort of slightly full hearty encourage is related obviously has its
atmology with the word heart C the core of our being so you to me if you step
forward and you bring your heart with you into to that which is a little bit
challenging and kind of I guess painful then coming into that space that
is courage if you’re doing that full hearty push through I’m going to conquer
this and I’m going to BR get to the other side and climb that mountain no matter what it takes well that’s bravery
and hey there’s enough broken souls in the world after bravery yeah really good point here
Wendy so may you all have the courage to cultivate courage and face fear and know
what is healthy fear and what’s not until next time until next time thanks
so Josh and thanks for being so kind with me about my mistake on the time oh
well thanks for joining me and no matter what the time is all right look forward to seeing you
Integrating Presence 
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