In this twenty-first installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore our experience of reality by (it being deduced down to): knowing and what’s being known, or perspectives like observing and what’s being observed, sensing and what’s being sense, etc. We also continue our exploration of the pros and cons of non-dualism; being in communities and outside of communities; and the importance of relationships in their multifaceted nature and vast contexts
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: An Integrating Presence Meditation at Mary’s House of Healing September 2, 2020
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
hey holness welcome this is Josh and today I have Wendy Nash with me back
again for our 2 first I think it is installment of meditation Q&A Wendy
what’s going on ah you know I was thinking before I came on air I have all
this stuff to do for my community group and this and that and and I could feel this huge pressure and I just thought
you know what I’m going to P my my husband what he does is he has this thing where he doesn’t get ruffled by
the by the time and so he just kind of pushes it out it’s really different way
of experience and he says no I’m going at my time I like it I love that and I just
thought yeah cuz I have this fictional time in my in my mind and that’s so I’ve
got to get it done but I’ve got to get it done but who like it’s my staff I have control over it I don’t have to do
it I I was I decided no I’m not going to do all those things I’m not going to fret I’m not going to frazzle I’m going
to do what I want to do which is still stuff that I want to get done but
instead of it feeling like I’ve got to run out the there’s a sense of desperation or something so I am here on
Gabby Gabby country in Queensland on in Kabula just north of Brisbane so that’s how I am we uh you
know we we’ve talked about this notion of time in our past shows and uh I also talked about there’s a difference
between being in a hurry and going fast and what you’re talking about is yeah
the um working on projects too there there are hard fast deadlines sometimes
that need to be met right but other other than that a lot of it is in our
own minds I feel about how we uh perceive that and if we’re going to get
anxious and in a hurry flustered by it you know one of the teachers I have uh
well online I haven’t really met the guy Gil franell he says when a lot of this stuff happens when he doesn’t think he
has enough time he just takes like 10 minutes to meditate and then doors open
up and can it just seems like more time you know sometimes uh so yeah how we
perceive it is a really big deal the selft talk we talk to ourselves and yeah a lot of the pressure just makes it
worse right so uh yeah hopefully at least for the time we have allotted here
we can um kind of move at a different pace and maybe set things and there’s all sometimes the nagging thing in the
back of the mind oh well I can be calm now but then I still got to get all this stuff so it is an ongoing practice in
training the these perceptions we have around and of course that old um folk thing about the amount of work expands
to the time we have allotted for it meaning that you know if we only have 30 minutes to complete a particular task a
lot of times it will take the full 30 minutes right so you know I think that one of the one
of the deals is really really just that I actually this sense of time that we
have the I’m just setting up all the tech here on the left hand side um so
one of the things is really just that we are doing everything on our own whereas be it’s sort of the first time ever in
history that we’ve been so solitary in the way that we do things and I think
it Wendy
Wendy oh seem to have lost Wendy oh I can hear you I can hear you give
me well we’ll give Wendy just a little bit of time oh no here She is again and
I’ll put her back on and Wendy are you back okay Wendy uh I have her turned on
here so we’ll see if she gets her audio again um so Wendy was talking about um
Wendy if you can hear me you can use the chat or send me a signal or an email if
you need anything on my end um when he was talking about okay I’m here got it
gotcha I just checked to see if there was I’m going to turn off all my devices I am very sorry about all that oh that’s
okay it happens um so you were talking about about how
uh we have to these days we do things kind of alone and in in a solitary manner a lot of
times yeah meditation that’s even that is a solitary Pursuit now you know we
are we do that on our own or with an app or on our own time and and there is a
different energy that arises when you do it in the company of somebody else we’ve spoken about this before and we have a
guy who lives downstairs and he when he’s here there is his energy comes up into the house
he’s not he’s you know not in a bad way but just his energy is here in the house
and when he goes he goes oh he’s gone his energy has gone and I think there is
this I think what is very clear at the moment is this sense
of I am alone in this task and it makes it a lonely
task and yes I can do it really more efficiently but am I doing it
effectively is it a pleasant experience so I was mopping the floor and I was thinking why is this not seen as exerise
I mean I know that sometimes people call that moving meditation I mean you could call it moving meditation but I have
this aggression with the mop you know it should be mopping itself or something
and why why is that that thing is seen as exercise not seen as exercise like
why it’s movement it’s walking it’s it’s not sort of very different to um maybe
you know doing light exercise at the gym what do you think this is uh well you
know the male mind wants to come in here and try to fix things Wendy right so it is I’ve I’ve struggled with this and I
think we all have have you know the these daily chores and things that we have um about it just being I don’t want
to do this I know I need to do it but it’s just it’s too much of a chore I’ve
got so many other things to do what I found too though is sometimes I had felt like almost entitled like I’m too good
for this somebody else should be doing this you know I’m above this you know
this type of thing so there’s all kinds of different strategies I’ve used one we
we’re speaking about having other people uh being involved with other people and not doing things alone all the time you
know one of the the best if if there’s someone else in the household that will
do that and then I offer to do something else that I I you know that that’s maybe a chore but I actually don’t mind doing
it you know the other thing like Wendy said is a moving meditation this is I mean it’s a little bit easier in monasteries where you just you have to
do your your chores otherwise you can’t really be there that’s just part of the agreement but then it can can see more
of a moving meditation it depends how much of a meditation you want to make it but you can be mindful of every time you
know one limb extends and one limb’s back you can give self extra time and actually move it into uh a meditation
yeah you can do a a fun exercise like that you know and then you can also just be in my crap I can be in my crap why I
do it and just see how Okay um is there a choice here am I choos to feel like
crap and not want to do it and does that make it better or worse and is there a time when I can say okay how can I do
this differently can I choose to be in a different mind state or watch the mind how is the mind doing this how is the
heart and mind while I’m doing this you know how would it be if I didn’t do this and didn’t do this for ages and ages and
ages how would I feel we talk about other people’s energy uh noticing it yeah and that’s that’s a tough one too
because when we’re around people’s energy who we love it’s a great support it’s a pleasure it’s beneficial but
we’re around people who uh we you know makes us clinch and tight kind of takes
energy you know it’s not helpful but if we’re in living situations where it’s really not possible to just go to the
landlord say hey could you kick this guy out because you know his energy is just not vibing real high right now so you
know all these things there there’s so much um so much in life that we can do there it could be endless
micromanagement too but we can go to the Other Extreme where oh just everything’s good everything’s fine and you know zone
out um yeah there there there is so much here um uh yeah yeah yeah um pleasing so
then if we are living with someone we cannot just do it for ourselves and know we can we can do it for another too
that’s that’s another easy way out of this I think in a way because I’m and living alone it’s it’s it’s way tougher
it was way tougher for me but if I know I’m contributing to someone else other than myself it makes my heart leap up a
little more we we’re we’re communitarian beings actually and this current solitary life
of is is I think you know there’s I I do
a lot about Community Transportation and one of the big conversations there now we’re supposed to be doing the Noah and
the Noah yes we’ll get we’ll get to the proper intro in just a bit we will get there but but I I often think about this
thing where it before people had to live with their relatives they had to live in
their Community they had to do all that sort of stuff and then and so people are like ah
we’ve got our own space we can create our own home and you know it’s not like anybody had a gun to their head in the
1940s and 50s and 60s to say go and live in the suburbs everyone was like finally
I get freedom I get to go wherever I want I get this car this big car I get
this house I I get to do all this stuff now for women there was actually a lot of drudgery it created this awful
solitary lonely life and there was a huge amount of a huge number of women
who were taking tranquilizers valum was just huge and and that hasn’t that that
was a big problem so it was sort of good for the men in many ways but awful for
the women um and not every family is nice so there’s no doubt that getting out of
really horrible family systems is one of the great things about our times you know I certainly don’t have contact with
my family and I think that’s Fab so but I think it it is it is a but I
look at Aboriginal communities First Nations communities they they lived in a communitarian system for 65,000
years that’s a long time we’re not even going to make it to so I think England and Europe was basically inhabited for
six and a half thousand years so you can and we’re not able to do it you know
where it’s all falling apart so whatever they’re doing is clearly working and what we’re doing isn’t working and so I
think I think going to the knowah and the knowing there is this idea if I just
leave behind my my the things that are painful and difficult the relationships
that are complex and I instead go to the this other place where those people
aren’t there I will be free of that and there is some truth to it but maybe it’s
the actual system and the way that we relate so in Aboriginal Families my
systems communities my understanding very limited is that they see everybody
as being connected to them and so they have obligations through the connection not only responsibilities to caring for
the community and each other caring for country but they also have a
responsibility to the quality of the relationship so if you they have
different tiers of types of types of ways of interacting with different types
of people in the community you have joking people you have close people you have people who you have to resp you
know respond to you you you know the elders you don’t argue with them they say do that that’s what you do you you
can’t negotiate that one actually and whereas we we are always looking for how
we’re different I’m not like them I’m different so these are all separating ones and I think this idea that we can
somehow leave our internal pain behind somewhere else and hook it on to the
other person the object who is difficult I think that is that and I think that is
the I know what’s going to be the right thing and I think this ties in with this
knowah I know what I should do I know what you should do and it is that what did you call it before the male thinger
I’m going to fix this there you go these are all great things here Wendy um I
will say that it it really depends you know of course the one thing that’s most
obvious is we can’t I I think think very few of us can escape some sort of community the rest of our lives right
even if we go live as a Hermit in in the wilderness we’re still in community with
nature you know um the the plants and the birds and the rocks and those people
you know it’s going to be hard to find places on Earth where we’re not going to have human interactions anymore you know so that’s kind of the extreme um they’re
still going to have to have food source sometime more than likely right so we’re going to have to interact and we don’t live in a vacuum we are interconnected
you know we’re we’re mutually dependent on so many things I don’t exist in a vacuum uh with that said I think there’s
a lot of causes and conditions with folks you know there’s some people who work really well in in social situations
and in fact they they’re terrified of getting out of a community or social
situations because they don’t know they’re that’s that’s their comfort zone and so just to maybe play Devil’s
Advocate a little bit you know they don’t know how to be on their own you know um they they’re just absolutely
kind of out of place like a fish out of water so they’ve become dependent on that there’s other people that I think
that are the the opposite too where they are such loners that they they’re trying to avoid you know community and social
situations because it it terrifies them and they can’t do really well in them and so they have yet to master these
situations so they haven’t mastered community life and social set at all and
well maybe very few of us have but I think it it comes down to balance as well you know if we if we can I think we
need socialization time and Community time and we also need alone time as well
and some of us might be weighted where we need it more than the other right um it’s going to be hard to kind of um go
within on deep deep levels if no one else around us values that right um on
the other hand if that’s all we do the rest of our lives you know are the is that deep wisdom and insight we’re we’re
we’re Gathering you know uh is that going to be of our best use of our our
skill set then you know if if all we do is keep to ourselves so I think it’s it’s not quite a simple cut and dry
answer I mean we have improvements to do on both social life and um kind of more
alone time you know um where’s our comfort zone um maybe it’s not exist IST
maybe we do need a comfort zone how are we in communities how are we outside of communities you know where are strengths
where are the weaknesses you know where’s um what leads to more Harmony and and H what’s the best thing for my
long-term benefit in the uh long-term benefit of others sometimes it might be more alone time or working in small
teams sometimes it needs needs to be in community for me to have more benefit and more benefit of others but at the
very least we can say yes how do we interact when we when we need to interact with folks and live around
folks in community whether it be more of a need or um uh more of a want perhaps
so and as far as transitioning to the knower and the known I was thinking about this too because uh what I meant
by this context is in switching kind of here into more meditation practice we
can also say this as um seeing and what’s being seen observing and what’s
being observed uh for more visual people for more auditory people it could be um
listening and what’s being listened to you know noticing and what’s being
noticed so where this comes from I can’t even remember this comes from it’s I think it was a meditation teacher or a
few who have just kind of boiled down experience into the most simplest of
forms here and to just this uh I guess it’s a duality dichotomy of just just
the object of meditation and what’s uh observing seeing knowing listening
um you know distinguishing that object and so if we can think of all the
different situations we’ve been in in life a lot of times it can just be boiled down to those two things we could
just say seeing and what’s being seen knowing and what’s being known and I think I we can we can uh you can
backtrack there to what I said and then we can look at this in a meditative context too and then maybe we can take
that off the cushion too I know you’re you’re approaching it a little bit differently uh I guess I was doing it more literally when I set this up but uh
yeah how what do you how do you feel about that as a meditation practice or as uh moving through the world as a
simplification well first up you use the term The Devil’s Advocate and I’m never sure the the devil needs any advocacy at
all I am personally of the opinion that when one is advocating for the devil I’m
not feeling it’s a good thing you know it’s a weird English term isn’t it yes I I want a better term for it because
absolutely I I do not Advocate any evildoing whatsoever it’s one of these
weird English terms that’s not very straightforward and helpful it comes from the it’s a Catholic term so they
had a lot of beatification and people wanting to be uh s Saints and then well
how do we measure that and so it became this pontification the pontiffs
pontification and the thing about pontification which is about knowing and you know being a know
pontificating is that it is this idea of being above and looking down and I think
the Devil’s Advocate role is often being above and looking down and not not helpful actually it’s
not a it’s not an it’s not like oh if I were in your position this is what I
would do it’s I’m above looking down and I’m going to cut down what you have
already have and I’m going to do that so just on the Devil’s Advocate very good
point Wendy thank you so much for that yes the other thing I thought about is
so when we’re on the cushion and we are you know it sort of R I think what you
touched into there were a range of issues about being
solitary being independent being interdependent being isolated feeling
isolated feeling separated feeling and and as you say needing time
having that sense of the need for to be on your own and I guess that’s so far from where
we are at the moment that we need to be on our own to restore we I think we are actually very poor at relating to
ourselves and therefore relating to others and when we don’t know how to
relate to ourselves it’s very hard to know how to relate to others and the idea so so I I use the
term the Noah because it was Elizabeth Mattis namel who is a Tibetan teacher in
the western western Tibetan Traditions very senior and she says I don’t like
myself when I’m a Noah and so I was thinking of it in that
context so here we are we’ve got a word you’re coming from one I’m coming from the other and it’s true that when we
come from this Noah Devil’s Advocate pontificating kind of
role then it’s we are not in connection with we
are separate from and that I think is the really the
challenge for us in meditation is how do we
connect with ourselves so before you were talking and I was sort of moving my
things around I want you had so much Rich stuff and I realized I wanted to take some notes and I was looking away
and I was doing some stuff and I I thought I was fully listening and and everything but I of course I was mildly
distracted and in that sense of felt separation and I’m sure that You’ felt where’s she gone
so but these sort of micro separations or you know we get the phone and with
these micro separations where just for a second we move away
from our attention is moving away and in that moment we are
disconnected so when our attention and so so I I don’t know where am I
going with this there is this sense of knowing being
known and being a knowah and you know I was talking with
somebody the other day and he was a Noah I was talking about a bike path and all
the rest and and he oh they won’t do this because of that and I thought you don’t know anything actually but you’re
just shutting down the conversation because you think that’s the way to
um show you you think that that is the way
to um show your separation actually the
is the thing about being not known being unknown being
unknowing is actually connection and I hadn’t thought about that you know I think last time we spoke I had just come
off Retreat and I and there was an interaction that I had
a conversation with the teacher at the front of the class where I felt this sense
of I actually felt the not not knowing and it’s
intimacy and when we are a knower when we know what things are we shut down the
world when we know what’s go I know what’s going on for me it’s like this I know what’s going on for them I know
what like then we have shut down the the
softness of the life and there is this intimacy that
arises with unknowing what do you think this is um
this is where it needs clarification I feel yes because what I feel you’re you’re speaking of is is identity right
what we’re identifying with heaven knows or Buddha knows whatever you want to say
that for such a long time and I there’s plenty of it I I identify with knowing
knowledge you know and it is so liberating to to be okay with not knowing you know in Zen they talk about
don’t know mind keep saying don’t know don’t know don’t know everything and is it’s liberating in this context uh maybe
I should I should have titled this um something different than that because this is a huge thing and what I feel you
were talking when Wy goes more about our identity about me as um this construct
of Josh and I’m identifying as a knower that’s who I am I know something and I
what everything else is what I’m knowing okay I didn’t necessarily mean it like that so that did does require a lot more
clarification so why don’t we change the language to um seeing and what’s being seen or observing right because I don’t
walk around say oh I’m such a great Observer you know I’m the Observer
which is funny where uh fiance and I are rewatching Fringe this TV show that we
were both kind of watched a lot of when it was first aired and there’s this guy Baldhead guy that he’s known as The
Observer he shows anyway I won’t go into that you guys can it’s actually free to watch on free verse or something with
ads now so but the Observer and what’s being observed so I I was meaning more
in a strictly meditative context and this is the other thing I want to talk about is um uh connection you mentioned
connection not being present and connected and and being attentive and then we lose track and then we’re not
connected to whatever we’re doing and so that’s what’s so great about a formal meditation practice I know some people
have so many different types what I’ve been doing lately is the kind of just the more traditional object meditation
right just knowing the object when the object when lose track of the object come back what this does it it does
train attention so then we can when we’re in our everyday life we can pay
deeper and more I think clear uh and more profound uh more broad more present
connection that we can really be there with something for longer and longer periods of time is a very special thing
and it takes training to to develop this muscle and this is where I think kind of
an objectification or a meditation object in this practice of coming back over and over again to one thing I mean
it is ultimately in service to knowing deeper and deeper levels of reality in order to uh realize the end of uh
suffering you know to realize Awakening and to be free and that’s it builds this muscle so where we can point it at
different aspects and investigate them and see things systematically or whatever so that’s the where it’s
helpful to choose an object to keep coming back and over to it but what Wendy’s saying is yes when we start
identifying as a knower and Mr Know It All and I know everything and you don’t
and I’m a devil’s advocate tearing you down and yada yada yada yada right that’s that’s not what I mean by this
here and so it’s it’s easily confused in that way and I wonder though if if if we
if I if one does overly look at it as a knower and what’s being known if it can
actually um strengthen the conditioning of this um of me being I’m I’m Mr Know
It All I know everything right so so we can just look at it as observing and
what’s being observed because that takes an emotional charge out it doesn’t build a a stronger self and that’s the last
thing I want to say around this is yes I’m not um we’re looking at like a healthy sense of self because as we know
self is kind of a construct right there is no what is Josh what is that is it
the body you know is it the thoughts is it the feelings is it how things are perceived you know is it the
Consciousness you know um oh I I say one other thing though I misspoke there
um it does this this observing and what’s being observed it does lend to a
duality you know and these people that are the non-dual people out there I I
need to talk to more non-u people because I see it as helpful but then I
also I I’ve talked to actually I’ve talked to some of these people and it’s great in a really spiritual context but
when they get into not they when when it comes to everyday life you know how do
we apply non-duality to you know going getting the groceries and um you know oh how are
you doing today sir there is no me you know there there’s nothing there’s only awareness you know there’s no separation
it’s only awareness there are no objects so you know it just uh okay so I said enough there Wendy I’m sure you can can
pick this up so yeah so the Noah The Seer and the
scen and the seeing The Giver the give and the
gift and where does one end and the other one start you know I I did a talk many years
a I I didn’t give a talk I attended a talk and it was a very senior teacher
and he said see that it was in a in a monastery of not in a monastery in a meditation place and there was a big
statue of the Buddha there and so okay look at that Buddha does that BHA would
cause your feelings do you know this one Josh I might continue please
though so all right so find something around you in your space where you are
now and find something that is uh attractive okay so just look around you
got something yeah okay so does that object cause your
feelings that would be really weird if it did so what do you mean by
that I would say if a fern is making all my feelings happen I that’s a little bit
um I don’t know that would be like some kind of alien planet if if a fern was responsible for how all all the rich and
death the the depth and breadth of human feelings uh experienced by this that
would be a little bit weird so when I ask this to people now
and I and I inquire into this they go oh yeah the vas or whatever it is that they
have in their house that yeah it causes my feelings you know it makes me I look at it and it looks
beautiful um or sometimes I did this the other day with a friend and I said okay
so you buy a dress or whatever and does that dress cause your feelings and she
said yeah I put it on and I feel great and everything like that and I said Okay so then you know a year later it’s not
so fashionable and whatever does that dress cause your feelings does it still
make you feel sothing it’s not about the object and yes there is something about wearing a dress or you know a piece of
clothing that that gives you that it sort of IM you imbue it with this sense
of uh it makes you know there’s something about wearing it that makes you feel great you know I think I might
feel completely different if I tried on that debt dress same dress Wendy yeah exactly exactly exactly
exactly so but but for her and then you you or you might buy a car and it’s the
brand new car and you’re super happy with it and then you know it’s a car’s a car and then a week later it it’s you go
oh look at all those people whove got that car I don’t want that car anymore I want what they’ve got and it’s the same
object what it’s a week later and really you know is it
that and and I think this is a really good exploration of the the know the or
the The Observer The observed and the observing that process or the sensor the
Sensei and the sensing that process is very very interesting and and as an
inquiry yeah now we’ve got it yes and I mean we can think about it cognitively but we can see a formal meditation
practice this is going on just choose a meditation object like the breath there’s what’s being known that’s the
breath you know either the pushing you know the pressure the movement the
expansion um the the lightness the coolness you know the the heat all these
different things that are being known and then there’s what’s knowing that you know and I like how you add kind of a third thing the the process and that’s
that’s that’s the knowing you know and some people that do awareness practices they instead of looking at the
object like we’re all trained to do throughout our lives even in meditation just this how we really relate to the
world however there is a possibility to to turn that camera around and look at
what’s what’s knowing that you know what’s I’m sorry observing that what’s sensing that beautiful way to look at it
too you know what’s what’s what’s actually seeing that and so the the metaphor that I commonly give it’s like
a movie you know usually we’re just completely engrossed in what’s ever going on on the screen but we take a
step back and like wait a second I’m in a movie theater that’s a screen there’s an image being projected where’s that
image coming from and look behind there’s a light in a projector and turning around and looking at that that
light projecting and so in a way that’s kind of like the light of Consciousness or awareness what’s actually knowing
what’s being known what’s actually observing uh what’s being observed what’s actually sensing what’s being
sensed and that’s a whole different type of meditation to to turn back around and look towards the source of that instead
of an object so I know somebody and that is his practice and it’s very interesting
and I’ve spoken about him before he’s a kind he’s a relative of mine and he did
that and he was encouraging me to do that and I did that and I realized that oh yeah you have the judge the sort of
the judging mind and then the judged person the judged mind and then the
judging you know moment and I looked at it and I was like yeah but it doesn’t resolve the underlying emotional stuff
that created the judge in the first place so I’m always uh I’ve seen I’ve seen too much
stuff go wrong in this space when people do that and they haven’t worked through their emotional stuff I couldn’t agree
more yes you know and this is um it’s just another tool right that’s another
um uh wonderment I have about about the non-d DU things is because they think oh it doesn’t take any effort any work it’s
just just a realization that all my problems are solved but it it it turns out when you I shouldn’t I don’t know if
it’s proper to say but some of the people in interact with them you know there’s it seems like there’s still
quite a bit of unresolved things that they have now just oh it doesn’t Ma you know not I don’t know if that’s right to
say either it doesn’t matter but there’s um it’s almost like an easy way out and
but it to me it’s kind of another tool set it’s amazing to be aware of awareness you know uh to know because
it’s so expansive and another um great thing about it is what’s being aware of
something it can’t be purified nor can it be defiled because it’s so purpose is
just to be aware to to observe you know but at the end of the day it’s uh it
seems at least until um a lot of we’re we feel like
we’re in a better space I don’t know if it’s but yeah on a mundane everyday level I it’s not a Panacea I don’t feel
uh maybe I’m wrong I invite people to to to chime in and say you know hey wait a
second this is you’re missing this this and this please you know chime in here and and let let us know that that this
is the end all Beall and not just another toolbox I I get it it’s um some people
do have like full realizations and then they just this wisdom can just spring up
and they just know how to interact and be involved and what action and speech
to say in any given moment and can use that to kind of break blockages dissolve
things you know bring things together that’s not necessarily what I mean these are kind of more rare beings who can
live every day in in in things like that in spaces like this and master their
everyday lives too so yeah yeah
so I think there was something there that I wanted to cover and I’m just sitting there going what was it that you
were talking about so the there is I
think when you use it as an escape from
seeing from being with it what pemma this is what I was going to say pemma
children um in the western Tibetan tradition she says yeah so how are your
relationships going and I think that is the marker and this particular
person who is you know I think he has great
insights and stuff and I I actually texted him and I said so what are you
not seeing about because he he said you know have the sense that you don’t think I’m XY Z and this is you know D and he
was going well what’s going on on here in the relationship because I don’t feel it’s working this is my sense of what
you think and I said yep that is exactly what I think so then I inquired and I said what are you not seeing
about your state of mind what are you not seeing about what’s going on for you
and he just raged at me and I’m going yeah right so what are your
relationships like and and then the next couple of days he said emot
and but after that I thought okay that’s great you’ve got to emotions and and you do that
but I didn’t he got to the point of acknowledging that he
had his emotion he had being blind to his emotional landscape actually and
often in that space he’ll go spiraling down and he’ll it’ll sort of become this
big inquiry for him but I haven’t heard from him and that is months and months months ago and and I feel that loss
because I I think there’s so much sort of opportunity that could be realized
and I think the marker of where you’re at in life is what’s happening in your
relationships that that to me is the marker you can be as enlightened as you like or get the clarity as you want but
if your relationships are no good you know you’re not as clear as you think it’s actually as e to tol says it’s come
the ego is coming in through the back door this is brilliant absolutely everything is pretty much relationship
even when we’re not with other people it’s a relationship to our heart our mind you know our thoughts our feelings
everything you know and even the historical Buddha is known to when a nand came and you probably all heard
this you know it’s just oh I think you know the spiritual friendship is you know such and such of the path and he
goes you know maybe half the path or whatever no don’t say that inanda don’t say that inand spiritual friendship is
the entirety of the path you know and uh what I take this to mean to is expanded
is that’s relationship in that context that monastic context they were you know spiritual friendships in that but you
know how are we relating or how are we kind of seeking out those who are good
for us and this is another thing that I find so brilliant is the fornal truth you know suffering in the end of
suffering I mean that’s is it leading a we of of suffering or is it leading
towards more suffering and you know this is how we test that is in our relationships you know are the
relationships um leading away from suffering or are they causing more suffering how we’re relating you know
how we’re perceiving and how how we’re reacting responding uh in our relationships ABS absolutely so um I can
I I see the kind of the nondual things as a kind of a relief from all the kind
of crap of life and it gets a A great break a a bigger greater perspective on
things you know and little things that are trying and troubling and nickel and
diming it gets some distance kind of can go through can transcend some of them
can allow us maybe to to be with them uh without getting flustered as much but at
the same time how much of a disconnect does it cause with our kind of relative
reality where other people are at not everybody is in that space but you’re still going to have to interact with
them how is that going to lead towards my welfare and being and the welfare and
um happiness of of them and everybody so is it is it helping that or is it taking
away from that and I would say it’s not as simple yes or no and say in some instances yeah it will help with that
some instances maybe not so much you know and but then it seems like there’s some kind of gridlock well if you say
that you’re dual that’s dualistic you know and that’s not how it is well I mean
another thing I like to say is so you think that nothing exists everything’s an illusion go run into that tree at full speed and tell me that it doesn’t
exist you know so I know we can we can philosophy and things like this we can say well that’s relative reality maybe
there’s a more Ultimate Reality at the end of the day though it’s um empiricism
how does it relate how are how does it help in one’s everyday life is it helpful is it
not so I think sometimes it’s very helpful sometimes it’s not so much
yeah and there was something in there that you said the you know nonuel is a
kind of relief in the world and I wondered if that was a you had kind of wandered into that space where when in
the nondu I am not in the suffering space and I wondered whether that was
also actually uh how am I saying you know maybe you too were in that delusion
that suffering doesn’t occur everything is this we skim over spiritual bypassing if
we just go into the Nal world and there is certainly a lot of desire for that because there is an idea that
non-dualism is somehow a superior way of being and so those of us who have these
deep wounds and that’s a lot of people who come into this path want to be seen
as a good person because we were told we were so bad all the time and so this is the right way to be good and we are nonu
and I’ve fallen for it you know there’s no TOS about that and it is an inquiry
always to go that’s why I find relationships so so good and going back
to the relationship so what I was the very beginning I talked about in First Nations communities they very focus on
how we connected with everybody and I would imagine and I don’t know so I’m not putting myself
that I know these communities at all but I would imagine there are ways
of seeing that you you are
influenced and if you come up to an edge where you won’t be influenced then you have to go to the elders in the
community and the elders sit there and go well let’s have a bit of a talk around that and then this is how it
is so I I think the key thing in relation in relationships in with in
human beings is how influenceable are you and how willing
are you to yield and bend to the other person’s wish and if you have a knowah
they are not able to yield to the other person’s wish so I in my community group
that I have about Transportation I meet all sorts of different people and some people are very passive and some people
other know it like these Noah what Elizabeth namat namel calls a a Noah like this fellow the other day and
sometimes they’re politicians and so we had a big function the other day State uh Minister came so that was police
Minister very senior man and he says we’re doing this and we’re
doing that and we’re we’re we’re great and we’ve got this happening and that happening and that’s in the
interpersonal style easier to manage than the knowah who says oh you need to do this and you need to do that and this
will happen and they’ll say no and all the rest but at another level it’s harder because they’re all smok and
mirrors and it’s a Wy space and it’s it’s very fickle so are you is there any
influenceability and the answer is in both of those cases well that’s where it
sits and it turns out that John Gutman who uh is part of the Gutman Institute
um relationship ship they study relationships and what makes relationships work well and
influenceability is the key predictor so sense of humor in a tight intense moment
playfulness and and this thing about influenceability they’re the two key
drivers of a of a happy relationship and what makes it work and how you accommodate the other person and and all
the rest and so yeah how do you what do you think well we’re in the age of influencers right I mean just look
online and this word influencer and judging ourselves and others by their
follower count you know and how much Social clout they have and I think this
can be a great thing if it’s used for the right purposes right if the individual is actually sincere and doing
what they say they’re doing where their actions align with their words then I think it can be a great thing I think it
could absolutely show you the other end of the polarity too right where somebody
that’s influencing something it’s maybe it doesn’t have the best long-term interest of themselves and others at
mind uh when we’re talking about our everyday relationships though I tell me
more about how that works just like maybe on um on uh like a romantic
Partners level if I’m an influencer to them I mean what is I guess I’m I’m I’m
Miss what does that mean or does that apply we’re talking about in groups right and yeah okay all right let me
clarify we’ve got a great session cuz you and me we have so many misunderstandings all right and this is
the nature of relationships we sit there going actually I think I have misunderstood what you’re saying and
that is the unknowing you know sure absolutely so if you were going no
you’ve got it wrong this is what I meant and let me make sure you have understood and we haven’t had that then then this
is the challenge right and then you have relationship break down the wall goes up and you’re kind of done for so what
influ inuencing means influenceability it’s not an influencer ah so that’s I
think maybe the misunderstanding here so what it’s talking about is all right my
neighbor he’s got a tree and it sits right on the boundary of both of us he
has a roof and we have solar panel he has solar panels on his roof and the
tree is growing up and the leaves are going onto it and the the tree height is
causing a barrier and it’s stopping the sunlight and he had the tree man come
the other day and go yep got to cut it down to the height that whatever now
down to the height of the carport now I I came out and I just said oh look hello
what’s going on here just checking to see what it is and he said well the and
I said what are some compromises that we can do here so I’m looking to see how can we yield together in this space
and we have always we mostly had a good relationship although we did have a problem last year in the election where
he was very Hardline about and saying some quite offensive things that uh were
just racist basically and and uninformed and he was again not influenceable it
didn’t matter what I said it didn’t matter what I wrote to him it didn’t matter what I what was what else was
there he was like no this is how it is the knowah this is this and I am not
able to influence him and so the tree man was here and I’m going so can we cut down maybe this branch and that branch
and how can we work it so that we don’t have to cut down all of it because it’s quite nice for us it makes a huge
difference in terms of the amount of light that hits our place gets very very hot on our
side and he said you know the compromise that you put an awning on your window
and I said that’s not a compromise that’s a solution just nailing it there so that’s
what I mean by by influenceability that capacity to yield to find a a place
where okay this is important to you how can this is important to you this is important to me how can we find
something that works for both of us yeah this is a really okay thank you obviously and this is where language is
so important too and this word influenceability it’s it’s it’s interesting it’s cropping
up now in the age of influencers though because we have we tend we tend to think
here’s an influencer and they’re affecting me I’m under them and they’re influencing me
and most of the time people think oh that’s good you know I can learn from them I can be influenced by them and
they can help me out because they’re this they’re this much ahead uh I think other people will look at this and this
is again I’m more of a traditionalist when it comes to masculine feminine qualities Maybe but usually it’s the
male that is the active giver and it’s the female tendency is kind of more submissive yielding and you know
accepting just generically I’m not saying this applies all the time so some people might look at that and they say
oh well I’m being um not influenced I’m being controlled you know I they’re
they’re wanting me to to to look at this and use this word and saying okay well
I’m going to allow somebody to tell me what to do and so we’re going to have Stu stuborn people like that so the
language I like to use around this is yes I I found in relationships of All Sorts that you know we have to have
boundaries and respect our boundaries but we also have to be open like we can’t come into every situation with our
fists up armor on guns blazing who’s going to want to be around that unless you’re in a war you know that’s
ridiculous to even get in those things so there has to be a a some kind of connection some kind of openness even
just to to hear someone out some kind of willingness um compromise and diplomacy
you know it’s kind of a it’s a weasly word kind of but you know this is it’s not a one-way Street relationships aren
one way they’re they’re they’re they’re give and take you know um I think everybody’s kind of afforded maybe 10
minutes of our time but some people we we we really don’t there’s not it’s not mutually beneficial to be with people
for a longer time but if we we have to give people kind of the benefit of the doubt I feel and uh be open and not come
with I feel not unless we’ll know right away if someone’s not trustworthy you know paying attention to our intuition
but also you know I’m G to be open and uh until they give signs of not being
trustworthy open and honest honesty is another huge key being straightforward
honest I know a lot of people don’t operate like that and I’m a little bit too much like that sometimes a little
bit too practical and I can be a little bit kind of of um impa patience is
another huge one because sometimes it just takes extra time to get on the same
wavelength as someone you know to understand where they’re coming from and the more we can listen and and um come
into it with okay where is this person coming from what do they want you know how can we help each other is there
anything here for both of us you know how can I help the other person and how can they help me maybe uh another
teacher I I heard uh that was really helpful is if you’ve never if you don’t know someone just assume that they’ve
gone through the most horrendous thing they’ve ever survived in their entire life so maybe that’s why they can’t meet
us the way we want to be met and they can’t have nothing to offer us so if if I come into a situation with that as a
as a possibility you know and sometimes maybe that could be the case so it’s
such a rich playground and um field uh
for so many Dynamics we talk about spiritual practice are just our everyday lives but what I feel Wendy means by
influenceability is just this openness to hear someone consider what they’re
saying and and I think we don’t need to necessarily be pressured in all the times to respond right away you know let
me let me sit with that let me let me think about that let me sleep on that you know and especially kind of not
responding or reacting when there’s heightened uh emotions we’re running on habit patterns and we’re not in a good
space A lot of times I feel it’s really helpful just to take some extra time in those situations so am I it kind of what
have I missed here Wendy too so I was thinking about all all what
you’re saying and so first up I think that extroverts are I I don’t know so
there’s a there was a Zen practitioner she was a psychoanalyst back in the 1930s and had to flee Germany uh and
Jewish woman and called Karen horai and she said people are moving towards
moving against or moving away that were sort of basic dispositions so greed hatred disengagement I or or ignorance
whatever you choose to use as your term and so I thought that was very interesting so I have a very moving
against personality so my initial response is no and then I have to think okay all right so no no no it’s not what
I meant I meant yes but my husband and I are always having these arguments CU he said why do you say no and then we end
up firmly agreeing on this point I like we’re having an argument in firm agreement firm agreement so it’s because
I go no and then I go yes and because that’s my disposition I’m always moving against people and it’s been such a
curse for me so I’ve had to learn and to yield all the time it’s not I’m not a
flexible person for me I think instead of the masculine feminine energies I
think it’s more more do you have a moving against a moving towards or a moving away personality my husband’s
sort of a yielder that’s definitely like that in terms of
influencer and the influency actually the influency is a participant in the
influencing because so for instance I have a a client and he wants to become a
coach and I have a unteer for the community group so he and he’s a very
passive person and we had this big event on the weekend so I said okay so to develop your skills how about you do the
event management for that which is great for me because I didn’t have to do it then and the CL the coach my client was
he likes to take over and control and then my client is very passive my volunteer is very passive so
as I we doing the debrief yesterday because my my volunteers he had a family situation so he’s not going to keep
going because he he’s had a big family doah happen and I said you were colluding
because the volunteer he’s very passive and he wants to be told what to do the
coach you want to be in control and talk a lot and so you’re in this actual
collusion neither of you is developing stretching enough because you’re
colluding in your marriage of the relationship one is very passive and one
is too one is too passive one is too active so the influencer and the
influency in that we talk about you know I always wary about these social media terms I always think they’re about more
about some Pravda Big Brother you know Pravda means truth you know and it’s
nothing but propaganda under the Soviet Union you know so I I’m very wary about
I’m an influencer I think that’s a way of saying I’m I I need to see myself as
having influence but actually I’m fodder to them great Mill of Instagram for
instance so you can yeah so um that’s that’s where I am but we
are at time Josh we have we are the only thing I will say is I used to be into
truth was really important to me and it still is maybe not as much but they’ve ruined that online you know it’s been
completely bastardized if I can say that you know uh it’s it’s just another just another game and stuff like that so the
real people out there they need to be more kind when it comes to to speaking truth and quit using it for ego and and
and propagation of agendas Truth for truth’s sake and do it do it kind and do it well and for helpful we are Wendy
this has been so amazing and thanks for that clarification around down there yeah lots of online rooms for
improvement for sure hey what are we doing next time because what have you got as our next topic that’s right you
know oh my goodness uh you put me on the spot I should have known this but we do have the next one just let me tease it
real quick here if you’ll bear with me for just a second we’ve got the second one is relational practice and we I
guess we’ll pick up on this because we did so much relational practice in this episode and so we’ll pick up on that
because I think it’s a really strong suit of Wendy’s and we we can always um
improve in our like we said that’s the entirety of the path so so join us next time for that one please yeah absolutely
we had fun great convo yes indeed all right everybody be well and uh yes enjoy
thyselves in
Integrating Presence 
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