In this fifteenth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore meditation retreats both from our lived experience and otherwise including formally, informally, attending, teaching, what to look for, what’s important, what happens internally and externally, and how retreats “change” us and the world around us.
Somewhat related talk mentioning retreats:
(Ways to) join these Q & A’s when they happen live:
- via downloading the free Wisdom app in your app store or via: https://wisdom.audio where I’m @integratingpresence or https://joinwisdom.audio/integratingpresence
- watch on my YouTube channel
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Meditation Retreats | December 12, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #14
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
integrating presence and today we’ve got Wendy Nash again with me Wendy how’s it
going good good I’m on Gabby Gabby country in Queensland Australia on the
east coast and my cat is just next to me so I apologize in advance if my cat gets a bit grumpy she gets easily startled so
uh she’s right next to me and we’re good we’re it’s warm it’s tropical and I know
that in the US and in the northern hemisphere it’s not tropical at all
um so yeah but good I’m in a um somewhat warm car here uh looking like a homeless
person or something um but due to the place where I live out in the sticks
there’s no internet so I’m at a a park just for people wondering what the hell heck is going on with Josh in the car
doing this so um yeah here I am and today’s topic is about meditation
Retreats and it is a little chilly here but not yeah not too bad uh here in Missouri rur or yeah somewhat rural
Missouri um so we thought we would just start off at the beginning right of
meditation Retreats talking about our first Meditation Retreat experience um
I’m gonna throw it right back to Wendy so then I can gather my kind of memories and thoughts on my own and then maybe
we’ll talk a little bit about the recent Retreats that we did so we can catch up a little bit and feel free to add in
comments and questions as we do this yes so just about the comments um
feel free to put put in comments or ask us questions or in any place that is
possible during the live uh so just as a heads up on that because I I will see
them and respond to them so it’s great to do that so my first Retreat gosh it’s
uh 2003 it was an 8 days and Retreat so I went from doing kind of no Retreats at
all to an 8 day like that was the first residential
Retreat I I guess I say there was a one day Retreat I did and it was mindfulness
in the morning and then loving kindness in the afternoon and have you had a meditation practice at that point did
you have you did you have a practice no I just sort of chck I just I’m not like
that I just thought okay I’ll just give it a go and I’ll give it and try it and
actually I did it and then I didn’t come back to meditation for a few years so it was probably before
2003 and I got to the end of the loving kindness meditation and he said oh the
teacher said oh how you go and I stuck up my hand and I said wow I didn’t realize I hated everybody so it was a
good mirror for me because it meant that I didn’t feel any peace and love at all
but I did see that I was the problem so that was really good and that it was up to me to change my attitude because I
just didn’t like anybody so that that was really useful to know but in terms
of my I think then a few years later I was a bit ready and I I went on an8 day Zen
Retreat and I didn’t know anything about Zen I didn’t know about meditation Buddhism I didn’t know any of
that and I was just going to go in my gear and stuff and I was really unprepared and
they said wear dark clothes because it’s Zen it’ll help you feel in place I
didn’t have a meditation things I didn’t have it was camping so I wasn’t used to
that and I went and I was how would I describe it I became sort of
aware I just got really tired and I and I started skipping sessions actually and
then the teacher said put out the message to one of the uh assistants to make sure I was first in queue for the
retreat I was banging and crashing in the kitchen you know I’m supposed to help out I was angry and they should
have done this and they should have done that all this sort of stuff anyway so I I was really angry I
got home and I was talking with somebody at work she was a temp and she said
something like oh you know you’re not a nice person or whatever it is and I said
you do know who I am don’t you like but it was like do you know who you’re speaking to I think I said that and I
had this I was going in therapy at the time and I was and I my therapist said I
said oh my God I feel my ego is huge it’s absolutely enormous and she said
yeah I want to punch you on the nose I was really really full of my own
self-importance and it wasn’t that that was a problem it was that it was the first time that I saw it so was good for
me I really wanted to see where I was going wrong so all these all this these
Retreats helped me say that I was the problem and I had a lot of
grandiosity and so that’s what was coming up because that’s what was there
and yeah so that was just in terms of my first one I remember getting to the
padic I remember getting there and thinking it’s a paddock and why is everybody saying it’s really beautiful
and then as the week went on I was like wow it’s so beautiful so it was just transforming in that way and the other
thing that happened is that my capacity to see trees change so in the beginning
it was just like just Bush and then I started to be able to
really see the trees cuz the Zeno which is the meditation Hall had Windows
looking out and so I was able to see it as the week went on and and became very
curious to me that how much my mind changed because nothing in the outside
world had changed it was only in me that this was happening so that that was
really good and I actually met that meditation teacher a couple of years ago
and you know I’m so much more chilled and I’m Not Angry Anymore and she said yes you are a testament to practice so
cuz she saw me at that one bang crash I was angry I was always angry I had a love and kindness meditation not long
after that it was a 4 day one and I was banging and crashing and I was so angry
it was a loving kindness meditation I was just angry angry angry that was how
I was so that was me at the beginning on my Retreats that’s
beautiful and that’s what loving kindness can do it actually brings up the things that need to be seen and
purified oh yeah there was a oh yeah lots of messy stuff coming up when I first started doing that um so the
people in America that what is a padic I should probably know that what does that mean a oh so a padic is you know it was
just how do you say that like a farm enclosure but it’s not enclosed it’s it’s like a just grass if a field in a
farm what do you call a field in a farm yeah that’s it like a yeah a field in a farm yeah like where cows graay and
animals you know roam around in Grays fenced in area yeah yeah but there’s no
fence and there’s no cows okay so just like an open uh yeah field yeah yeah I
guess a field is another way of saying yeah yeah and that’s cool how your Consciousness expanded basically right I
mean to be able to see literally see something with your physical eyes that you couldn’t see before yeah I mean we
can notice we can see the the expansions in Consciousness happen on Retreats I know so my and then the other key
distinction that that I want to that when you say you are the problem right so this is in context
that I’m guessing that you always thought it was somebody else that was doing it somebody else was the problem
right is that what that’s what you mean right before that or yeah like I was angry all the time they did this they
did that and they were this and they shouldn’t have done this people were like one woman uh a friend of mine she
later became a friend and she said she worked with uh soldiers from the
Department of Veterans Affairs so and she she worked so and she said she was
not scared of many people but she was really scared of me I had this really un
volatile anger um that was just reactive and unpredictable
and wow I was I mean I never physically hurt anybody but I had a lot of I spoke
very ill to to people yeah the the reason I I I chuckle here because I was
in the same position you know I was uh in in the workplace where I was doing
you know one of the most senior people there doing one of the most low-level things and I was completely I you know
this is ridiculous I shouldn’t I’m I’m way above this I can’t believe that they’re making me do that you know this
blah blah blah blah blah blah you know the self-righteous kind of thing and it’s exactly where I need to be then you
know and yeah blaming everyone pointing the finger at everyone you know now we this is this this bully this kind of
victim victimizer thing we’ve talked about so many times and a lot of other people on the other end of this you know
little me right oh it’s always my fault I’m I’m to blame for every so it’s it’s
the reverse so it’s the the counterpart to what Wendy and I are talking about and I even see that more with meditators
right even more oh I can never do you know I’m always wrong you know it’s
always my fault this thing so it’s an interesting balance but we’re talking here about Retreats and so mine’s quite
a little bit different story I had a practice on my own daily committed practice which is really rare on my own
without a teacher other than a lot of YouTube videos and I’ve told this before but I think the first time I went I
think I’ve I’ve told this before but uh I had a yoga teacher and she just came back uh came into yoga one week and she
just seemed really kind of calm and peaceful and blissed out really and then really genuinely happy and I was like
well what happened to her and she she told us about this Meditation Retreat that she did at mid- americ Buddhist
Association and uh you know and the only place really around and it it’s a unique
thing because it’s partially Chan and it’s partially terada and so there was a
week in sash which is basically a Zin you know weekend retreat and I went there and I
had I had these all these different romantic ideas about what a monastery was and what a retreat was and but I
also had my um kind of weirdness and strangeness and doing the things I want to do in my way so when it came time for
walking meditation I went outside and I took my shoes off and went Barefoot and
nobody else did that right and I was trying to find a patch of ground but there really wasn’t any level ground I
mean they let me do it I got a you know some weird stairs and things like this um you know but I I I went through with
it and I think the the the other week-long Retreat I actually did in real life was there too and no I don’t think
anything out of the ordinary happened to much because I had you know a really steady practice at that point you know
it was more about oh look at all the books and these teachers here and learning about different Asian cultures
and oh wait a second I’m not supposed to point my feet I remember reading the re uh the The Retreat things and it’s it’s
disrespectful in Asian culture to point your feet and being like a hillbilly from the country right I didn’t I didn’t know anything about this and so I was
always I was overly hyper um aware of which way my feet were pointing almost
to um Ridiculousness and I do remember the noble silence though was really
profound you know I like to talk and but communication doesn’t stop right there
is this um continuing um communication but on non-verbal
levels and all the different ways we’re communicating non-verbally become heightened and yeah it’s amazing what
I’m seeing in other people’s body language that I don’t normally see you know um it’s it’s amazing um that was
some of the big things that stood out so we have we have a comment here and then I want to ask Wendy what are some of the
um you know what are some of the common things that you wanted to know before you went on
Retreat or or did you you know and yeah so what what do we got here Wendy I just
didn’t know what to expect or um where to to go with it or I I just was like
okay well I’m going to go and I’m a bit like that I just jump in and then figure
out um figure out what to do later I’m I’m a
real that’s how I am so yeah I like doing that too you know I
usually have a plan a at least when I’m traveling or something which by the way we’ll talk about meditation practice uh
leading a nomadic lifestyle or when traveling too I think it’s a really important part of practice that’s uh our
next show next month um but yeah you know just jumping in I mean that’s some
people would never do that you know they wouldn’t even go to a new restaurant unless they read the Yelp review you
know online reviews about it it when I heard that I was like are you kidding me is that a thing people won’t just go try
something new without you know reading the reviews and things I mean yes we we try to vet people and teachers and
things like this but what about just being spontaneous uh every once in a while you know yeah yeah so yeah so in
terms of more recent Retreats how do you feel um now that you’ve been doing so
how long have you been going on Retreat for well hang on I want to read um IM
Reed’s comments here real quick she says hi Wendy your voice is much calmer and pleasant than months ago so yeah
definitely well interesting so Wendy I she just talked about uh this is a long
time ago but I I see that too I mean Wendy’s even gotten yeah even more so
she continues to be I mean the the loving kindness practice speaks testiment you know um and then she’s and
read says a testimony to it thanks and she says she might go to Toast Masters
uh all right well I still I’m still intrigued by this group uh and maybe we’ll get a Toastmaster update from um
Wendy later however I I don’t know I don’t so you as so I was just sort of in
response to emid and just kind of going yeah I guess we all have our good days and our bad days and often what you and
I experience is a lot of technical stuff you’re so humble when we have a lot of technical stuff that goes on and I do
get agitated by that and oh always you know so much um material to work with
and and you know it’s we’re such a work in progress there’s no final place you
know that’s the that’s the thing you know and um and how boring would that be
you know yeah if it was all sorted all the time that would be pretty boring yeah so I think I think you know just I
think often maybe what my the changes in my voice are more to do with my general
sense of irritation with the technicalities because it’s not not working and faffing about and things
like that so that’s definitely I’ve still got plenty of material to work with don’t you worry about that it’s
coming up to Christmas and I just yeah it’s not my favorite time of the year so there you
go yeah well and it’s technicality has been good so far I mean this new
computer helps a lot so I mean it was going on a 10-year-old computer so maybe that has something to do with it but
okay so now back to the the question you asked me about now do I look for now on Retreats right is is is that what you
you said what’s your experience now on Retreat so when you you know what makes you want to book one Retreat not another
what makes you what’s the experience like of it how do you feel now that you come afterwards or you know what’s your
experience if you compare a sort of before and after so all those years ago when you started and now what has
changed in your in in that good point and then I think this will be
a good segue to go into our current Retreats and and share about those as well so yeah um right away well I just I
won’t say too much about the recent Retreat I went to but I was overseas and there was a short time window so it was
a convenience you know of what I had so there wasn’t much available now um quick
side note I’ve heard some people similar to you but also never having done any meditation go into a 10day Goa Retreat
and for those of not familiar this is a super intensive as far as I know right I
have I haven’t done one um Retreat where you’re pretty much meditating 12 hours a day uh and it’s pretty intense from what
I understand I haven’t done one I and I was on a weit list for one uh but did or
for or considering getting on a weight list but they were they were filled in the UK so what I the The Retreat I won
on uh I didn’t know the teachers you know I didn’t know them from Adam um and
who they were big students of uh another guy who I had um chosen deliberately not
to go into his teachings in order to have Zen mind beginners mind right and
yeah I won’t I won’t say too much I can answer specific questions if ask about this but the the whole
thing Al so so there’s the there’s different sides to retreat right you we’ve got the food that’s the biggest
thing I I think when you’re on the retreat and you’re keeping precepts for so so for those that don’t know a lot of
Buddhist Retreats are um you take at least five precepts if not eight um so
there’s you know there’s there’s little distraction you’re put in a situation where you’re
not able to really run away or distract yourself a lot and so food becomes like
the especially in the terab you get like one big meal a day you get breakfast a lot
of times and then then maybe a little short meal in the evening or a little snack or something um sometimes
depending on what it is or whatever uh so it’s interesting to see the Mind work
around that too and center the day the the the the life other than meditation
around the food um and then we’ve got the basics of sitting walking standing
lying down right um and you know there is there’s just a
basic kind of um cookie cutter thing where it it’s it eliminates distractions
then you’ve got the room set up right either you have a roommate or yourself and this is a standard living situation
how do we live how do our preferences clash with others but more or less you’re just on the cushion right and
walking um so to me it’s it’s obvious that the facility the facility itself
and how it’s run and the teachers are another big thing so we don’t need much as far as facility this is not a spa you
know when and then let’s just get clear what a Meditation Retreat is it’s not just a thing where oh I’m just going to
go you know sit a couple hours of extra meditation a day I’m talking about a
formal Meditation Retreat where everything’s put aside and um you know that’s all you’re doing basically now
the other thing is cell phones um so this recent Retreat I had it off for six the entire time uh they have a ritual
sometimes around putting your cell phone in a sealed bag and they go you turn it
in in front of everybody and the teacher I didn’t do that but I did keep it off voluntarily in my room the entire time
and I haven’t done that for years so I think actually that might be the biggest thing for most people you know this this
lack if you’re actually doing that cutting that off so that was one of the most interesting things too but yeah
basically you just want um you know a clean room it doesn’t have to be you know
excessive um the the food if the food’s good you know um and accommodations if
things run well if it’s managed well everything goes smoothly right but
um that’s that’s one thing and then the teacher I think that the teachers and the teaching if they are giving Dhat
talks during the retreat are very important because the mind becomes very malleable very uh open very flexible uh
wide open so I if you’re not resonating with the teachings that are coming when you’re doing intensive meditation
practice it can be agitating and annoying and then distracting I find so
it’s very important that you I think that you’re familiar with the teachers and that you want to be there or you use
that as a practice too so I found myself actually going towards the full Noble Truths so the things I uh there’s a lot
of things that I weren’t aligning with with the teachings at all and my mind was seeing into other deeper things and
of course there was some doubt but there was also some some questioning you know but there was an opportun not
opportunity to do that we did have little group interviews that’s another thing so maybe Wendy can talk about
interviews on Retreat I think are very important as well so there there are several different Dynamics around this I
I think as the practice grows and en richens um and en liven there are uh all
these different Avenues in Retreat and the one that go if something’s really off it’ll stand out a lot you know it’s
kind of about Harmony and balance among these things but um as the rich inner World increases
then you know how do we keep from uh wandering too much away from the core of
it uh practice itself uh into all these other things um and how much do we
investigate and not you know how much trust do we have in the teachers and the teachings and the practice and how much
do we not so I I’m I’m kind of dancing around a lot of things here but I think that’s um kind of a slight overview to
to go into to um what I look for when I when I go on Meditation Retreat you
know yeah so um what do I it was as you were speaking I was thinking what do I
look for a how the cost because you know there’s a reason why it’s called the upper middle way you know it’s like you
have to be so rich to go on these these Retreats I mean I don’t know how much
they are in the US and but here they’re like $1,000 for a week and it’s a lot of
money and then you on top of that you’ve got Danna the generosity practices and you’ve got transport to get there and
you lose income so I’m self-employed so I lose income during that period it’s just for the wealthy you know it’s it’s
mading um how much it’s it’s expensive and then there’s that question about
well we we offer to people who are in need and then well what does what
does uh that mean you know does that mean I mean I I don’t have to pay for
rent but I don’t have you know a huge great big fat income either so I I find
that that that’s a real hindrance and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of
discussion about that in terms of race because if you uh have a lower
income you just can’t afford it and then it means that people who aren’t white who have those higher pay paying jobs
don’t go on the Retreats and it it’s part of the exclusionary sort of
mechanisms about it all but so that’s that’s one thing is is price where who
so I’ll I’ll be aware of I’ll look at who um and I’ll look
at the tradition uh definitely
um and and yeah and and whether I’m part of
that group or not so sometimes I’m part of group here where I am here now in
Kabula there’s there’s no nothing and even in Brisbane which is just an hour
away I asked if there are Retreats there and the answer is no there is a group that they meet in the evening a lot of
things have shut down over at Co um yeah so I would say that’s what I look for in
terms of my experiences now now what I I thought when I started the retreat so as
we were driving up to the first Retreat the Zen one that I was talking about before I asked them you know what is
what what’s the retreat like for you and she said well it changes every time and I didn’t understand that because I was
like well you’re not doing anything so how can it be different every time and now I understand that every Retreat is
different because my what’s going on in my mind is different so that has been a
big thing and I have found some now when when it goes a right the
teacher says something that I don’t agree with I I always bring it back to
well I don’t like them and what is it like to not like people and what is it
about me how how do I feel when I don’t like people and what am I struggling with so
I was on Retreat a couple of months ago and I just went straight into this
awaken first day straight into this awakened mind for four days it was fantastic and I got back up on the
questioning thing because that was at the at a question time and then four days later I was really reflecting on it
and I wanted to share this great insight and she clearly in hindsight I think she just thought I was very conceited I had
gone into this very conceited space and she just cut me right down
and so I Then I then was kind of reeling
from that experience not only in the in the SE like in the interview I was at
the front an interview between two people and then I just got somebody had
had come on retreat with a cold and I got that cold because I was fully
compromised in that space which caused a whole lot of problems so if you have a cold don’t go on Retreat because it it’s
it as it happens the woman who I was sharing my room with who I could have easily given the cold with we had to get
the whole place in you know infected and all the rest but we had to but she actually was going into a household
where somebody was imuno compromised so it had huge implications actually so
don’t do that um and but what was really clear is I was in this heightened State
and I was unwell and I was determined to stay to the end even though I was mostly
in my room I thought no I’ll go to the end and then I as soon as I got on the
bus to leave on the last day it I just stop started feeling
better so what was very interesting about that experience is when I became unwell it was really very clear that I
just wanted to get out of the place and that was my body doing its thing to tell me no you don’t go there this is not a
safe place for you this it’s very interesting to look at it from that perspective and I was thinking about you
know teachers where I haven’t felt it’s jailed but there aren’t that many Retreats and I want to go back so I
thought next time I’ll actually write them in advance and go look this was my experience with you last time I’m not
sure whether I would want to come back this is this is my experience and
depending on the reply I get I would wouldn’t go on retreat with them so I
think with with teachers there’s there are in Pro this
the process of self- inquiry so I think it’s okay to it’s not a finale and if
they say no this is your problem well you go yeah okay that’s time out I’m
done so that says more about them than it does about you so that that would be my experience
that’s brilliant that’s a really good idea if there was some some kind of um something gone on definitely yes email
the teacher and see what they say about that I think that’s a a fantastic idea if considering to to return or not with
that that teacher absolutely um now uh Wendy when you were talk the other
question I had so you you were doing interviews in front of people like they put uh no what did you mean uh when when
you did interview how did that work yeah yeah so um on the first Zen Retreat that
I did way back in 20 3 uh that was in a private room and that
was just the student and teacher but lately I’ve been to a few and what they
do is they do inquiry practices at the front I mean you have those private
conversations too just to check in everybody does it usually every second day but if you have a particular
question then you can go up to the front you can they do an inquiry at the front and then everybody hears that and uses
that it’s a device it’s a teaching device and I think it’s a really good one definitely yeah so it’s kind of like
a group Q&A yeah yeah in a way yes very Co yeah because we had we were in smaller groups I forget how many it was
two 4 68 maybe in the group with one of the teachers and there was a rotating
schedule uh about these group and that was just a group interview there was no one-on-one interviews I guess it was so
large the one I went to that they didn’t have enough staff for that and but but we got the two main teachers though so
um well we’re ready over time here um the only other thing I think I wanted
right are we no no no we’re only half an hour in that’s right I keep thinking we we started the bottom of hour great
because I wanted to go into what if we were teaching Retreats
now um disclosure here I have done a very tiny little Retreat uh at someone’s
house that I have led uh in someone’s backyard during the um the fall I think the fall
month or it was it was the temperature was enough to sit outside by a fire and
we did do it was actually like a quarter day Retreat you know it was several hours I’ve got it documented on my blog
anyway of sitting and walking so I’m glad I had this experience you know so what I did is I did do a disclaimer
obviously um not a disclaimer a waiver right a liability waiver um so you know
know this is this is important in some instances too so make sure all the legal
things are there and insurance if there’s you know not so everything yeah
besides all the the business end of it and of course I work on donation basis and let me actually backpedal a little
bit to Wendy’s main point about fundage you know and since I don’t make much on my uh my website I I I don’t have in
since I do everything is from the spirit of generosity for me it’s it’s a little bit different so I don’t have as many qualms of saying telling them what I do
and this is you know this is what I do so this is a training for me you know I can contribute in other ways now most of
the places that I did sign up they do have sliding scale but yeah there is this kind of kind of shame or blame or
you know what is this lo you know why is it to me uh to me what is the best way
to go about that you know this it’s called sliding scale right based on income but how do I thought the the
organization I did fairly well so you can get like half price retreat no
questions asked you know and I just told them that’s what I did and they didn’t so but then you could get a further
discount but it it was another process involved so I just did you know the
first one uh and because of my situation and it went really smoothly it wasn’t I
didn’t have to fill out anything like that you know I didn’t feel less than or more than doing it I said okay this is a
situation basic now there’s all kinds of complications involved in this so I would like to know if there’s a better
way of doing this than some organizations do it some don’t do it at all some do it I guess better than others I don’t know if anybody does it
perfect or if that’s a you know not perfect but the what’s the best way to go about this now I’ve heard of Goa
stuff which I think is really admirable they won’t even it’s all free it’s completely donation based and they won’t
even this is the kicker though they don’t apparently don’t even accept donations until you you set a retreat
for free first which I don’t think of any other organization I’ve ever heard of does that so that way there’s I mean
that lessens the corruption I would imagine so I think that’s a really good thing um so yeah so Wendy what would you
cons uh what kind of things would you need to know or want to know uh about
leading your own Retreat too and or or what would you um kind of questions you
would ask to to to find out what’s needed for that and would you consider maybe I’ll put you on the spot here
would you consider leading a retreat you know and what what would you need to make that happen so I’ve done one diploma in
meditation teacher training and I’ve completed that and they’re very clear it’s we were allowed to do I think a
weekly class drop in or something like that um and I I didn’t do that I did a I
we we had to write a program for it but we didn’t run it so there’s no practicum with it I’m doing a second one now with
Tara bra and Jack cornfield which is much better organized and led and held I
I have appreciated what I have learned I find it very structured and it’s given a lot of yeah it’s helped me in my own
inquiry so I have actually gotten a lot out of it it’s quite expensive but I I
personally feel that it’s a good course if you are interested in doing
it it doesn’t allow a person to be what they call a Dharma teacher so you’re
just strictly a meditation teacher and you learn how to do a talk and you have
to in the practicum you have to do six a minimum of six students six people in a
class and you do it for four to six weeks I think or a one day so you can
you can either do medit mindfulness classes or um you can do a drop in which
is harder because you need to get feedback and things like that or a one day and they provide all the course
material this is what you need to this is the program that you can follow if
you wish and then all you need to do is basically fill in the blanks you know
what do you want to teach on a particular day is very good because it it re it gives you the capacity to gain
confidence with teaching so I have already LED I’ve spent a year um giving
teachings in in for two hours a class so I I lead a 2hour class and it has got a
talk some guided meditations it’s very interactive with just one or two people
some friends that I that I have come to know acquaintances and now friends um
and my partner comes so it’s four of us three or four of us at a time it’s very intimate uh which is very nice because
I’m still I’m very much learning this game of not game game process of of
teaching meditation um so that I just I did that
every second month and from 3: till 5:00 p.m. on a Saturday next year I will step
it up and I will do it every Sunday afternoon every one one Sunday a month
because quite time consuming to write talks and and everything uh I have insurance so I can do that um and I do
it all danab based and it’s such an intimate group people are uh quite
generous with that um I’m even at the end of this two-year training that I’m
doing with tyara Bracken Jack cornfield I’m not allowed to call myself a Dharma teacher and they said I am not allowed
to lead Retreats so a one day course is what you
can do anything overnight you’re not not allowed to do I’m not allowed to to lead
that and I think that’s very wise because I’ve seen some people really go
crazy on Retreat uh not so much on a two-day one but you yeah I think you
need much more support than what this course provides um if I were going to go on and
become a Dharma teacher or lead Retreats I would I would seek uh some kind of
support in that process but for me in my little Community this is actually really
good because I I do very basic stuff it’s very applied
and people here it’s it’s not a it’s not an intellectually oriented
Community it’s I’m not in a university I I I’m in a suburb where there’s a high
level of um trades people who who live here and
um we’re actually in what’s called the ninth cental for social disadvantage in Australia so nine in 10 Australians are
more more have some more social Advantage than us so it’s a very small
number of people that who would be interested in the first place and it’s a very but a lot of people want to do it
but I can’t be wafty and they wouldn’t go on Retreat they’ve got kids and jobs
and that’s never going to work here yeah so that’s that’s where I feel I’m I’m
best placed for where I am very cool and that’s it’s kind of more practical like Zen too I imagine and but you write the
talks huh you you write the talk wow that’s quite an undertaking wow do you
do you publish them later Wendy that would be I haven’t done that I haven’t
done that how many talks have you got you can put them on your website amazing you spend all that time
I think well that’s cool hey and you mentioned uh it also reminded me of
Oxford so I think we talked before the show there was an Oxford queue in there do you remember now what you wanted to
say so keep that in mind but then the other thing was um um so okay you get
this accreditation from the Jack cornfield Tera Brock and um but what say
you did want to go on to so but you just can’t say that I’m approved by them to do you know to teach um you overnight
Retreat you can say I have this accreditation but you can’t say I’m approved by them to do this right I mean
they can’t like you don’t have to sign some kind of non-disclosure agreement say you can never ever do that until we
tell you you can right just to make that yeah so they they did have a legal thing you are not allowed to use this at and
say that you are a Dharma teacher you are not allowed to go on and do Retreats so that that would be I mean I think
lawyers would come back at you if they you know you can really cause harm yeah
but well I I totally get it but like let’s say years down the road you wanted to do that uh you would have to get
their personal approval before you could is that is that not the dhama teachers that’s different but I mean just a
retreat in any tradition you know well anyway I it would I would have to look at the legal stuff anyway I don’t need
to put you on the spot about legal EAS but I’m I I get the wisdom in it and at the same time you know um that what what
I thought would actually be a building block towards something like that seems almost like a hindrance now you know in
a way I mean right I mean no I not I wouldn’t say hindrance but I mean if you
wanted to lead Retreat you know just either something on your own or in another tradition I think you would
still be able to but you just couldn’t say that they allowed you to do it are you yeah anyway I sorry I should have
digging myself here I think it’s always really when it because you’re dealing
with people’s mental health you may or may not know the person who who’s here
who who’s come even my friends my acquaintances and friends I one of them
alluded last time now we’ve been doing it for a whole year and she alluded last time that there was some deep childhood
trauma we were doing forgiveness practices so I said start with the light stuff you know someone who I don’t know
cut you off in traffic or nicked your coffee cup or didn’t pay an invoice start there uh don’t go into deep deep
stuff big stuff cuz you don’t want to do Rail and if you’re in a big Retreat you
need to have a team you need to have support you need to be aware of the impact of it yeah it’s just it’s it’s
important to be judicious and recognize your limitations there are too many people who are going out there and just
doing weird stuff uh and I think they’re causing a lot of harm I I totally agree
you know and then when we throw people that are into plant medicine in there and you know it works really well for
some people and other but there’s just so much and I can’t speak to that because I’ve never done that but I mean
that’s a direct substance and you know it’s it’s it’s challenging enough without any substances involved so but I
mean you know I just for for a few more minutes here you know I’m I’m curious now what would that look like you know
if if you are you are Andor I would want to go into or look at something like
that in the future maybe even just a weekend you know so I think to consider
we have to look at the the number of people involved yeah if it’s a huge facility obviously I mean that’s that’s
I mean starting small here um I think maybe um volunteering under a teacher
are are just running as support staff for something like that or I don’t know
this word shadowing I don’t really like that word but I mean um you know being
there as an assistant or or a trainee um also you know I I just um I think this
this the the model you’re using is great too Just Close Associates or not
Associates I’m sorry close acquaintances and friends and then you know with
trusted um vetted individuals that you know you you really know each other and
so I think that would be a good first test that’s kind of what I did too with this this mini micro Retreat I did and
yeah uh so I’m I’m thinking about you know what kind of extra training is
needed what kind of boundaries and barriers need to be placed uh any kind of
safeguards extra training you know um and you know I don’t think there really
is a college course on I mean yes there there are accreditations for things like this but you know in the DH World from
what I understand you need to be have a dhamma transmission right you have to be approved by a an already credited dhama
teacher to be a dama teacher yourself and I don’t have any you know I don’t have any um aspirations to do that
because I don’t even consider myself a Buddhist right um and I’m a little bit um a a rogue in the sense too because I
don’t have any uh formal teaching training as of now my accreditation
comes that I am open to questions and criticism always without me uh doing the
same to to someone else unless they um are okay with it but so that’s how
people can keep me in check right I mean I don’t know if that’s um helpful or not
but that’s that’s the way it is and it it helps me with my own practice too and
um to see that I’m on the right track and I like Wendy said I’m dealing with
very small clientele as well so at this point so it’s not like we’re we have
potential massive opportunities for abuse and and going off the rails here with like Guru culture and huge communes
or something like that so yeah so what what comes to mind Wendy I was just going to say in terms of teaching I um I
started teaching I did these courses because I had friends who were saying you really need to teach you would be
you you really need to share this and and learn how to teach so that was why I did it I wasn’t I think you do have to
question what is it that motivates you to teach because and and when when
people are going no you really need to do it and they say it for several years then then I think you’re probably ready
but I think to to do that because you want to when you’ve got this amazing
stuff I think that’s a really bad marker of that before we go because we’re heading up to our last 15 minutes I
wanted to talk to you about Oxford and and yes before before you get into that
I’ll just leave this by think yeah I don’t really have much uh inclination to
go up there and teach dhama during a retreat but I would love to sit with people and if they wanted meditation
instructions to to sit continuously throughout a certain time period I would
love to be there maybe energetic support doing something like that but yeah
teaching on on higher levels of speaking no I just just the practice that’s uh
but so and that’s really good guidance I think that could be extended in itics too anybody that wants to be a politician shouldn’t be allowed to be no
I mean I’m joking a little bit but yeah so so just on that slight aside um it
was actually quite funny because the our federal Treasurer so I think the Finance
Minister for the country happened to be up here it’s an election a state election next year so he was here and
doing his thing with you know doing the promotional thing anyway I told him my company my company’s called kindly cut
the crap and and so I got a photo of of me and him with my
cup he loved it I actually got one done for him with yeah with sort of a little
personalized message just for him that’s great what a good sport yeah
because he he just thought yeah I wish they’d do that in politics I’d go down and have that in my meetings and I go
just put this C at this cup on my thing he really loved that so yeah he’ll
probably prob be the next Bri fin or the one after so yeah anyway so it’s a
digression cool Wendy all right so Oxford yeah so I I was living in Oxford
uh a few years ago in England and you know as an Australian my parents are
English and I thought I would be a I’d lived in England for five years as a in
London uh in my early 20s I was back there because my partner at the time got a job there I I didn’t particularly want
to go but I I went because of him and I tried to make friends with the
locals I couldn’t I just found I couldn’t figure out what what
they were was important to them I couldn’t even in the in the uh in the class in the meditation
class we once a month I met with people and I would go there and there were like five people and then go home
and there was it was very uh I felt very alone very isolated
very lonely uh it was really difficult I’d go to work I was working at the University
of Oxford it was very isolating I found it emotionally very very cold quite
traumatic actually um and you know this is common for
Australians they go to England and they just go wow you cannot make a friend here I was going the problem’s me
clearly because everybody else is doing that but I think they just are incredibly lonely they just don’t realize it you know so I was sitting
there and I was trying to make friends with people and I couldn’t do it so I thought okay let’s turn this negative
into a positive forever the lemons to lemonades kind of approach I’m going to say I’m on
Retreat and so I thought I’m going to go away whenever I can to Retreats weekend
weeklong retreats and I will just study the Dharma all weekend in the morning in
the evening I will memorize uh verses
and slogans and texts so that when I’m having a really bad time with somebody at work I will just do that and apply it
and and I thought it’s a different sort of way of thinking about
retreat but it’s a Daily Life retreat them and um so just you don’t
necessarily have to go away I didn’t have a lot of money and I I didn’t know anyone and it was very hard but I was in
a situation and I just flipped it on its head and said I don’t need to go to a
retreat I can say this is Retreat it’s not that different and deal with the
difficulties of my life on Retreat and I knew and because I’d done so much study
during that time was 3 years years then I I just got I had some
really good insights I learned a whole lot of stuff I was it was really a very
useful process and I knew that one day I would come back to Australia and I wouldn’t have that opportunity so it was
good to make the most of that opportunity and by flipping what does a retreat mean on its
head that’s beautiful too and you know I’m not a complete stickler for the
formality of this too there’s a formal retreat but then yeah we just think about this term in and of itself Retreat
it means to to to I think it’s actually a military term right to to to take
where your troops are and you Retreat back from someplace you you withdraw you
go back a little bit and you go into more of a safety area where you can kind
of build up and fortify and you know or yeah withdraw this um kind of seclusion
or renunciation renouncing things um minimizing things so yeah there’s all
these other words are um images and things that come up around Retreat there’s a formal Meditation Retreat and
then there’s just this notion of retreating or being on Retreat I know I was in a situation in my life for for
several years where I just it was I lost pretty much all my old friends and I I
completely changed but it was for the better it was a transitional period I listened to hours and hours and hours of dhama talks you know that’s how I
learned a a lot of dham with a daily sitting practice too so I it’s in in a
similar way as well yeah this and how about these lockdowns that we had right
the co the The Retreat that no one really asked for so I would say General
SWA of the population now had a chance to experience things like Wendy and I had
um that we had been training for in a way M perhaps um before these lockdowns
because I don’t think Wendy and I were any stranger to um spending aone time in
in in contemplation or dealing with difficulties um when by ourselves and
not doing some a lot of Superfluous things in life as well and yeah so this
is this notion of retreat is indeed a fascinating one some people are probably
absolutely terrified of it they might think that it’s like some kind of probationary period or being in jail or
being forced there by friends and family maybe all the way into you know leading Retreats and opening a retreat center
and you know this is my life I want to do this all the time type thing so
there’s so much variation to this and I love Wendy’s thing of about this this malleable perception of taking you know
these lemons turning into lemonade so in instead of just feeling defeated and I
um I can’t ever do anything right and what’s the point and being down in oneself actually use it as an
opportunity to go deeper and uh not help oneself and then by that uh I think by
default that those we come in contact with um can be benefited as
well yeah yeah for sure for sure you wanted to talk I think before we wrapped
up about now what was it you were you said you were going to talk about one other thing I yeah I thought we covered
most of them oh I know it was it was the difference between living in a monastery and being on a treat that’s right so
I’ll tease it a little bit here because our next show is going to be about nomadic uh Lifestyles but this was this
was a common thing people confused and they you know I told them I was going overseas and I was going to go stay at
buonas monastery and you know and they just I think I might have mentioned and
I’m going to be doing a retreat too uh so I think it might have been my phrasing but they they might have
thought that I was going to do the retreat at the monastery but it was actually a separate thing at a separate place but yeah I’ll go into more next
time on what life is like at um Buddhist monasteries the two that I stayed at for extended periods in the UK and I did
stay a little bit at the one in in Missouri but this short short short
summation here it’s not a retreat although there is meditation and there are um periods in portions of the Year
where there are extended periods that approximate Retreat right and there’s
also the Winter retreat that some of them have where they pretty much shut down but that’s these are all different
things but basically you do get to meditate in the morning and evening most days formally with others in a Pua style
setting but the rest of the time you’re you’re doing service work you’re either in the kitchen or on um um you know
taking care of the grounds and other projects but you also have free time as well so we’ll get into all that and uh
we’ll talk to Wendy about her different uh experiences meditating in various
areas of the world and in certain life situations and how it’s changed over the
years depending on what she’s been doing too right yeah I I think we can you go
go ahead I say we can even wrap up a little a few minutes early too go on though yeah I just a little bit on that
so I when I moved back from Oxford to uh Australia I stopped for six weeks in a
nunery and I did think oh there’ll be lots of meditation and stuff so there
was none of that and I no uh we hardly even had any teachings there was a a
meditation Hall there were a lot of mosquitoes so it was in India in the north and there were a million
mosquitoes and some people get affected and some people don’t but I definitely got affected um and it was
really um I was happy to have it was more just a general decompression from the time in
Oxford to feel like I was back as being a human being as opposed to this lonely
little person on my own but yeah I it was and you know there was a a Russian
nun her name was Yan she thought it was very funny cuz she was like yane as a Russian she thought that was very funny
and she was she and the the uh abbis were fixing up all the buildings and
doing all this stuff and that’s actually what what most of the people the nuns who lived there that’s what they did
they were just doing all that stuff they had a couple of guys to fix up the gardens and things but basically it was
free lab in fact aam brah he says he wants to start a um a monks Union
because about the labor conditions of for for monks because it’s so terrible
because you just have to work and work and work and you don’t get paid you don’t get anything you just have to do it so that’s a bram’s take on it but
yeah I that that’s me so well that’s lovely yeah maybe we can talk even more about that and and and things like that
too on on the next show and I will say though it does it is a contrast though even though it is kind of hard work and
that going back into societ after living there I mean even just down the road to
the Garden Center uh one places it’s just like people are living like this what’s going on I mean because there is
so much more cohesiveness and Order and calm and peace but you’re you’re you know going about your day but it’s
completely different than the worlds you know it’s it’s pretty wild I was just I
was just thinking when I I did a a 286 day very early on I think soon after the
The eight-day Retreat I did a 26 day silent Retreat not it quite similar to the goenka but so that sort of thing and
my friend came and collected me because I would I never drive in those situations after a trick because I just
think I’m bound to have a collision and and these people I was and then you go
right here and then you turn left here they said it was like have somebody
having somebody on acid because I was just and then you go over here and look
at that over there with that person St just thought it was so funny it has
completely different wavelengths than most people yeah yeah when it come yeah
all right well thanks very much to em Reed for our comments sorry about we didn’t we didn’t uh I think maybe you’ve
probably gone to sleep by now because wherever you are it’s half you haven’t been on for half an hour so uh thank you
very much M Reed for joining us and for Josh I think it’s been a great conversation it has I’m so glad we did
this and uh catching up on a retreat experience is a big part of practice so may you all sit well and uh all the best
of um Retreats uh present and future to you and integration of the past ones bye
now definitely
bye
Integrating Presence 
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