In this thirteenth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore why one would even bother meditating in the first place. And what’s so important about meditation anyway?
(Or other ways to) join these Q & A’s when they happen live:
- via downloading the free Wisdom app in your app store or via: https://wisdom.audio where I’m @integratingpresence or https://joinwisdom.audio/integratingpresence
- watch on my YouTube channel
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Why Meditate? | September 28, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #13
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
of integrating presence and today I’ve got the lovely Wendy Nash back with me
Wendy how’s it going yeah good I’m in Australia in Queensland
in WW country and we just had a big downfall
oh my goodness it’s always nice
well you know this is kind of an auspicious time I guess windy leaves for
Meditation Retreat tomorrow uh and here within less than a week I go
back to the UK to stay in a couple Buddhist monasteries and actually finally get to do a retreat after quite
a while and um both looking forward to it in today’s show we titled uh why meditate you know
this fundamental question of why we’re even bothering to do this
it is you know and uh the first thing that comes to mind is it’s almost like uh when when Wendy says that a dentist
right a dentist sometimes they inflict pain in order to get rid of a greater
longer pain uh I know that was like that for me the first part of my practice in
particular you know um but I’m gonna just throw this back to Wendy uh you know why do this Wendy why
meditate you know for a long time I had that
dentist approach we’ve got a bit of an echo here problem Oh while I think about it I’m just going
to check the YouTube and just see if anybody’s online yeah good oh I’ve got
sorry about this I just I’ve got duplicate sounds everywhere a
couple of Buddhists trying to sort out all the tech I tell you it’s not a good look why do we meditate it means that
every time we have to deal with tech we just don’t go you know swear and you know and blame
ourselves and blame everyone else I think that’s good to read just in the city then you can take it all with a bit
of lightness and and you know ease then why did I why do I meditate I
meditate while I’m going on a week’s retreat tomorrow so I’m super excited about that first one
uh away well it’s the first one in 18 months
um and it’s the first one to this new Retreat Center so I’ve never been to that retreat center before it’s on if
you’ve heard of Byron Bay apparently that’s where all the famous people are in Australia they’re in Byron Bay
um because it’s the most eastern point in Australia so it’s it’s amazing and this used to be a
real hippie thing um now it’s you know influencer and stuff like that
um and before that I was in Amsterdam and why would I meditate it costs money it’s a bit expensive you know there’s a
reason why it’s called the upper middle way um because you’ve got to be upper middle class to afford it yeah take time off
work you find out how unpleasant you are you’re kind of a bit uncomfortable
you don’t talk and yeah
but why meditate because
it’s a bit like doing the dishes comes in on the left
and you go and you you haven’t noticed how much of a backlog of dishes there are but you’ve had dishes for a long
time you have never done your dishes and then you put them in the sink and some of them need a really good throw
some of them you’re at that sink for a long long time and you need deep deep scarers and you’re trying really hard
not to break the plate and the pan through over earnestness
and then afterwards you put them out and then it takes a while for them to dry to dry to drain and dry
and I think that’s actually I just made that analogy up and but basically it’s
like that and then you know now I don’t really have to deal with the really hard
grit and grime it’s just it’s more about being curious
about what is this grit and grime because it’s not big I don’t feel
overwhelmed by it in the beginning I think the toughest time in meditation is actually the first few years
the first six weeks are the hardest to set up a routine I heard somebody say
five five five five five minutes five days a week for five weeks I hope that was very
interesting um yeah I think that’s that’s really
practical and doable for a lot of people I know I was a rare case with this um reflecting on this this morning I
kind of came to the same metaphor that that Wendy was talking about here it’s like a hygiene you know it’s like you
know we brush our teeth we we we we clothe ourselves and it’s just there’s
so much Gunk that builds up through the day you know it’s just like taking care of ourselves and I now people do this in
many ways they have all kinds of different things to do some more healthy than others for me this works just to
kind of clear the energetic Gunk that’s picked up throughout the day
um as well but you know um ultimately it goes way beyond that or
can has the potential and I just wanna um Echo Wendy’s sentiment of you know the
cost of the meditation Retreats you know then you’re going silence and so you’re paying money to basically
um do nothing you know go inside and you know
where you yeah so I but it does create a container these
Retreats for and maybe we can do a a episode about like Retreats frequently
asked questions but it does provide a container to go deeply inside
um now where it really becomes apparent is over time the gradual thing because
day to day it doesn’t seem like it’s a huge profound difference however with
the exception of the very beginning like Wendy was mentioning that’s when I noticed the biggest change as well to
complete transformation for me maybe not for everybody but I would say most meditators when
they first start diligently a daily practice they notice
quite a significant effect change um
so I’ll just leave it there and throw it back to Wendy before we get into what even are the potential you know I
wouldn’t say grandiose but even more profound things than this but for me day
to day I really couldn’t imagine you know in the world we live in uh going without it just
yeah so I I had a thing this morning and I was I have my whole big thing is
um well for beginners you know how to be happier without doing more so this is a really big thing that I’ve got and
basically you just notice anytime anyone does anything to make you feel at ease in some way
just pause and allow that to land in your heart so that’s it and go through
the day from the first cup of tea that your partner brings or maybe you know if
you have a partner and you just snuggle up and they’re you know they just snuggle you can do that that’s actually and they accepted that snowball that’s
actually a really nice thing then and you just go through the day noticing all those and then at night
time you go back to bed and there was one woman and she’s she’s I I do all the
caring I care for everybody else and then you know as you know Josh I also
founded a community movement to improve the non-cut travel options in my town and I do that as my engage Dharma
practice well that’s not my engaged armor practice it is what I do and I guess I
do it because I am sick of talking sick of myself and so I’m thinking about other people I
suppose um and I want a good bus service so that’s also there and she was really
aggressive with me about something and I got really kind of it
was like her pain body I I got really knocked off at her and
then I felt this kind of dirtiness of her kind of pain body speak
and then and then it kind of I don’t know something that eased on that
and I think that’s why I meditate because
people are a bit of a pain in the ass backside on a regular basis I find them but I
find that now that I’ve been meditating for 20 years and going on meditation retreats not as many people
peeve me and in fact I find I often like people
more so that’s why I meditate um because I just I’m less of a rat bag
no just that it’s a really good point you know and I
would flip it around here for myself that I’m more palpable to other people put it
that way because I used to be quiet of a rear end myself um but I was told that quite a few times
and I didn’t even see it you know and then to to be able to see how I was
behaving towards others behaving towards myself and I don’t know I I seem to notice too that
I became kind of or realized that I was more energetically sensitive and some people maybe might know what
Whitney was talking about that it seems like when when our heart becomes more open
um you know on the on downside there’s there’s more potential for crap to come
in but then there’s also more potential to just let it slide just let it fall
off like a water off a duck’s back and move through um and go through it quicker even
so yeah the things that once really perturbed me
um at one point they’re they’re kind of seen more as
not a big deal anymore you know the the classic terminology is empty you know we
can see that that nothing is going to be stuck there forever right and you can’t
really grab on to anything um for a long time I mean we can the
Mind does but it can easily or sometimes easily be let go of
um yeah so it’s just overall it’s just a better way of being in the world I’ve
noticed and I couldn’t really imagine going back to you know with without it
and it’s so weird I another thing that came up this morning is how can I talk about this like I’m not selling some
kind of product or something you know like are that I’m um you know proselytizing for some kind of
religion or something like this you know I I but I don’t know you know what are
your takes on this yeah it’s interesting I was thinking
about what you said about you’re less of a rear end I think like that’s a great way of putting it
um but I met a gentleman this morning and he’s a counselor and he was talking about you know the woke it he was so
contemptuous and I pointed it out to him and he’s like I’m okay with that basically he’s a
rear end and I’m trying to point him in that direction but he he has the good
intention he wants to help people but his Gunk is in the way so he doesn’t realize that being contemptuous of
people self-righteous is a marker it sort of shuts down the
heart at some level so um but you asked me a question about
something else um what was the question again
you know it’s this it will pick up on that it’s it’s really
interesting that yeah the heart is so important too and I think the the what
Wendy and I have touched on so far is the This Heart quality of meditation you know
um the other part of it is this kind of clear seeing and knowing the the wisdom aspect of it and I think the things that
we see about the heart have the wisdom built in but I was just saying how do we talk about this without like like we’re
sales people you know in a way I guess we are but it just seems like okay is
there another approach to this instead of just like selling some other type of product or something which it it does
apply and it doesn’t apply because there is no product you know other than
I don’t know how to put it so it was interesting this morning when
I was at this uh fair and I just said
yeah so I’ve got you know this thing how to be happy without doing more and everybody just liked it
and everybody does want to be happy but we just don’t have the tool kit so I
think less talking about it and more
giving people um an approach something they can do
which isn’t difficult which fits in with their life which will make them be happier
which isn’t skirting the issue so I never said um
I’m not saying there aren’t you know rear-end things in happening in life
I’m saying but there are also these other things and normally we Overlook the things that others do for us
and a lot of people talk about you know oh yeah it’s a gratitude practice and I said no it’s not really a gratitude
practice because what you’re doing is you’re just noticing what someone does for you pausing
and allowing that to land on the heart and then they kind of went Ah that’s
what it is so it was a bit everybody liked it
but no one wants to have their veggies rammed down their throat no 10 year old
wants veggies Ram down their throat in a kind of broccoli is good for you Sunny
gym kind of way but if you just make your veggies and
you cut them up into pretty shapes and then you do little trees for the
broccolis and you make it a yummy meal and you cover it in tons and tons of cheese or whatever
then then kids if you do it into a way that they like well then it’s not an
argument you’re not ramming it down their throat so I think I think proselytizing is is a bad idea
and I also think you’ve just got to live it so
people meet me and they just they resonate with the joy and lightness and
humor and warmth and care and I mean there were a couple of people this morning who just had tears in their
eye because they actually just felt loved a few people like that you know and I so
I think I think to me it’s just about meeting people where they’re at listening
and leaving it at that that’s really beautiful I mean I think
there’s so many of us that just want to be seen and heard and I’ve said this
before but some people need to be seen to be heard and some people need to be heard to be seen and you know how can we
show up it’s about how we how we show up too right and this this deep practice
that Wendy and I have are we’ll just say practice I don’t know how deep Wendy’s is or deep mine is really but it’s this
embodiment what do we embody you know when we when we’re off the cushion
you know how are we in the world um how are we with ourselves how you
know what is the relationship with like with ourselves and with others and yeah
people can pick up on that light and that care and in being seen and heard and and it really uh kind of starts and
continues and goes through with how we show up for ourselves and how we see ourselves and our relationships to
ourselves and what better place to do that in a formal meditation practice when you’re almost forced to I mean
there’s nothing else if the eyes are closed and going inside then
um well of course there’s distractions and things but ultimately if you do it
long enough it’s we’re going to be faced with this me
um you know or whatever that is and come kind of face to face with it and then
what’s the best way to go about that and is it oh yeah there’s so many better
ways to go about it than what kind of the default mode is that we’ve
um kind of maybe fell into before we’ve had a meditation practice and whatnot and I love this notion when
he mentions about um letting this appreciation just fall on the heart you know and I and it is
different from gratitude because gratitude I think is more of an act of like listing
um what we’re grateful for right and maybe reflecting on that but this is just getting out of the way of everything and just letting it touch the
heart and how does it touch the heart how is that
so actually I still catch up with my previous part no we still have conversations he lives in a different
country um but you know we catch up regularly just to say hi check in and stuff and
um and the other day he said ah you I’ve always thought you were a bodhisattva so
that’s like my ex partner telling me that and when we spit up you know I wasn’t always perfect but I
just went no no I don’t think you should pay for that I think I should pay for that I think you’ve done already too much I think I really need to take on
more of the responsibility and you know look at what I’m not going to say it was all you know without there weren’t
issues because of course it was and I emotionally completely shut down because I had to I didn’t want to be a horrible
person but that there was so much kind of hurt in there too so I was just kind
of kind of held back and withdrawn perhaps a bit cold but I always tried to
meet it meet him um because we were living in the same country before and yeah so I think there
is something about why meditate because we’re Kinder when when the practices are
about kindness and care and generosity we we become Kinder and more caring and
more generous when the practices are how much more can I make and I’m going to find a way I’m going to be really
Mindful and concentrate how can I make more money and be more manipulative well
I’m just going to be more manipulative and ruthless that’s that is still mindful but
wow I mean you’d just be a horrible person wouldn’t you so I think I think I
just wanted to check that in yeah and this brings up a good point
um uh this notion of of goodness and you know
the so in the classic terminology this is called you know right mindfulness
right there’s a there’s a wrong mindfulness a right mindfulness a wrong mindfulness would be all right the right
and wrong is not uh so it’s you know what skill I think Wendy’s used um whole mindfulness or
um yeah so yeah what’s what’s wholesome about you know what’s helpful and
skillful about the mindfulness because you can be really mindful as a thief right it takes a lot of being present
and concentration in order to steal something in order to pull off a theft without getting caught but that’s not
what we’re talking about here but what this does bring up for me is I’m wondering about these these kind of
wholesome roots in these unwholesome roots you know the when we boil things
down uh and get to the root of a lot of unwholesome things things that aren’t helpful or skillful
really that are the the cause of ills in our in our society comes down basically
to Greed ill will and this ignorance or delusion right of
not seeing these other two things and not um yeah yeah ignorance so
I just wonder about you know do you I mean this is more of a philosophical
question do we do you feel that people are Beyond certain people are that those
um that that they’re really entrenched in those roots those unwholesome roots and that their their good roots are gone
basically that their generosity and you know um their kindness and
uh wisdom is pretty much out the window you know it’s it’s gone it’s it’s not there anymore
um and I’ve been I’ve been reflecting on this myself and I I really don’t know and if they are gone can they be
re-established you know um short answer for me is maybe there are
folks like that and but if there are then then I I think it’s still possible at some point to to re-establish them
somehow I don’t know the exact details and this is speculation of course and I don’t know if it’s
appropriate to speculate but I just see if Wendy thinks there’s anything to this
before I go there I just wanted to say if you’re on YouTube you are welcome to put a poster chat I can see it online
um but uh you’re welcome to post a chat and I will and ask a question and then I
read it and then we’ll discuss it so no problem there uh I wanted to so you you talk so yeah
so a couple of things in there that I thought gee that’d be good to to talk about
so one is are people able to be
can they absolve themselves and technically I think people can I I heard
Bishop Desmond Tutu Archbishop Desmond Tutu give us give a talk at a thing it
was like ten dollars twenty years ago it was so cheap I couldn’t believe it and uh or went along
and he said that what happened during the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa is that you had the
police the um you know the racist police under apartheid upholding the law but they
took it to an extra step and what they did is they um sometimes
tortured black people by burning them alive and then they had a barbecue with
the with that emolliation you know with that burning it’s a grim Grim cruel
horrible like to me it’s a whole other level of Cruelty
and one of the side effects of divulging this in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
is the wives turned round and said oh my gosh this is my husband I thought he was
a good upstanding person I have been sharing a bed I have children with this
man I cannot be with them
so if in that moment
the soldier the police officer sees the horror and is open to engaging
with the horror of what they have done then you can
and I think you know that that’s what they’re sort of one of the few stories where I think well when
you know it’s sort of circumstance if you’ve ever done anything mean in your life all you need is circumstance in
order to be as dark as that because as unkind and mean as that I
mean you might go I’d never do that but we know from Germany that actually you probably could so I think I think it’s
um during the second world war we we know that this is possible we we know this is possible
um but I also wanted to so I think that that is I think that’s always what
Worth to remember but but I that people can at any stage
review their life and and go oh my goodness I mean I think it
was at Chandra kirti there was the one who cut off all the fingers of all the people and He Wore a necklace and he
finally unguly Mala that’s a really good point yes yes that’s a classic famous story
and anybody interested in that they um invite them to look that up but I think
that’s it and so what you’re saying is that yeah I I think it’s beyond me the
the psychology of it but there is at least you’re talking about um circumstances or conditions right and
one of the ones that you turned it around on there is if they just stop and
pause and review their life and I know that was a thing for me early
on in meditation I was like having this what new agers kind of call A Life review you know where I was going over
uh in my mind images in past scenes were arising in my mind that I hadn’t
completely dealt with and I was like I was kind of shocked of all the things
that were the gunk that was built up there and uh yeah um so I think that’s a really good point
this this condition maybe the willingness or whatever it might be to to pause and then look back on one’s
life
so one of the things you do need to not everybody is up for
for the courage to look at themselves like no I I’m in I with my sister’s
death I mean you know just gosh what a horrific thing to happen my father’s death what horrific thing to happen but
I’m the only one in my family who’s looking at my stuff and going well yeah
there’s a problem here and nobody else is interested one of my brothers he
enjoys a good bottle of wine and a beer in fact one time we hadn’t caught up and he just the idea of having dinner
without a beer or a wine I mean we had to spend 20 minutes going to find a
Bottle Shop he couldn’t do it and my other brother he’s just a cranky person who finds it difficult to keep
friendships and my mum she’s just quite a superficial person I’ve now kind of
understood that she has some kind of autism um and makes it very difficult for her to engage other people’s realities and
understand them which is why I thought she was cold so it’s it’s often just trying to understand what’s going on for
the other person that makes it one of the things I did want to touch in was this thing that you get to the point
where you look at yourself and you see who you are and then you also talked about greed hatred and delusion
and one of one of the things I’m really looking about with meditation is that
actually the first truth is that life is going to be painful sometimes it’s just
like there ain’t none there ain’t no negotiating on that one that’s just that’s the deal
and what that means is what what that greed hatred delusion is seeking to do
is to avoid that sense of feeling unpleasant
but in in no place in those four noble
truths so later on is there the inquiry into self that’s not a
necessary thing that is not necessarily what you have to do with four noble two is the first one
is notice every time you desire to put
pull away from that which is unpleasant and that’s that’s kind of it
so because I I I’m not so sure that the answer is we have to meet the self I’ve
met so many people who have seen the self and they’re still just as whatever as
rear-endish as um they as they were beforehand they
just have seen through that and the grandiosity the child’s desire to
be a big grown-up and I’m going to have as much as ice cream as I want when I’m grown up that that character has just
melded with it so I just you know there’s a lot of enthusiasm for seeing to the self but I
I’m not convinced I’m not convinced yet that that is the way it may be a good
byproduct but I think fundamentally notice that you have a desire to move
away from that which is unpleasant and in what way do you choose to do that I think that’s that’s the core and why do
I meditate to become become more important than that that’s beautiful it really is and so I
guess for people that are new to this you know um people might be saying well I that’s
I who wants to be unpleasant I it isn’t doesn’t it make sense to go away from the unpleasant I mean that doesn’t that
usually mean danger I’m it could be in danger you know um then my life doesn’t you know it
doesn’t uh it sucks when things are bad things are unpleasant and of course I
could answer this myself but I’m gonna I’m gonna I’ll just uh play interviewer
here or something and ask it just ask Wendy that first and let her Brilliance shine first and then see if there’s
anything else for me to add to it so you’re just just to double check you
cannot because we put a bit of a sound problem here okay um so I what you’re saying is
you would like me to discuss why moving away from unpleasant is a problem
okay yeah exactly yeah or like something’s unpleasant happen and you’re telling me
I should go into it you know that as a new meditator yeah so what are the
benefits of you know um or how do we how do we approach unpleasantness
okay so I think first up when you’re a beginner don’t bother with any of that
first up look for anything that anybody does that is kind that makes you feel
more at ease and because that you need the you need to sort of feel more love
and buoyed by the connection to others uh it’s like a little trampoline you
know it kind of helps you bounce a little bit more um bounce back a little bit and so so as
a beginner don’t go there just notice all that just just do that all day every day not to negate that there are rare
Endy things in life but just to know that
um there is more to life that perhaps you have overlooked and that’s a good place to start but I think there is a
point at which you start to recognize that that it’s to
do with the patterning so it’s not so much about one particular thing it’s to
do with the patterning and whether you feel there is an option and every if every time you feel a bit I
don’t know Restless you go and do something
then that is what gets hardwired into the brain you know neurons that fire
together wire together or use it or lose it so if you want to if you wanna if you
wanna whatever you do now and you do more often when you’re an old KOJA you’re
just going to be grumpy or Restless or joyous or warm or
crotchety or whatever so whatever you choose to do in every moment
is what you’ll be like when you’re an old person but that’s easier said than done because
everyone thinks oh I’m much nicer to other people than I am to myself and I
haven’t generally found that to be the truth I have generally found that people are just as judgmental to other people
as they are to themselves it’s just that there aren’t as many expletives generally I find it sort of there and
and the it’s more that it takes away the mask so sitting with where your
patterning is noticing ah here I am I’m doing it again I’m doing it again I’m doing it again
makes you realize a bit like what you were saying before when you started doing the dishes of the mind that you
actually you’re a bit rear-endy and I thought I was really nice and then
it turns out I was a so I um yeah so so it’s it’s not about not
it’s it’s about have you got a choice sometimes don’t hang out in a bad space
don’t work down walk down if you feel uneasy walking down a dark alley well a
don’t go down the dark alley if you feel something isn’t right trust your gut and
move but if you find that all your relationships are crashing and burning
if you’re finding that you’re not satisfied in your work life finding that
um yeah I don’t know there’s some pattern that seems to be recurring in your life
then you then you’re avoiding it something that is unpleasant
so that’s what I would say what do you reckon Josh yeah it is and this this it’s a that’s a
really good way to put it so when we start seeing these things about ourselves and other people and whatever
it is this the patterning then there can be a tendency to add another layer on top of it right
um oh gosh this patterning um it sucks I don’t want it to be like that why does it have to be like that it
doesn’t happen all the time but it’s like you know I’ve done it again I’m such a why do I why does this always
happen to me kind of thing this kind of thing can happen at least it did early on so it’s important too to know our
relationship to that patterning right on one hand yes it doesn’t really help to
to beat ourselves up um but on the other extreme I guess would be you know oh it’s okay just who
cares I can just do this and I’ll be good with it right I can I can just be okay with it and in a way you know
there’s there’s like pros and cons to each of those sides right it I think
it’s a balancing act between how much am I being down to myself and uh really
being hard and overly judgmental and um you know just not again kind of thing
and then how much um am I on the other end where I’m like oh who cares whatever you know I can
just it’ll be okay you know um yeah that that might have been crappy but it’s okay
um in in a way it it is okay but it’s it’s this is where
these these ethical um things really help for me right because we can see this and see all
these things but if there’s no regard for non-harm right if we’re continuing
to harm then you know I think that I really feel that has to be established
too because that’s what I think that’s where this all traditionally all this stuff is
taught of of non-harming and um otherwise
this kind of insight that we have for some people that don’t have the the
um these these ways of being in the world it can just turn into another tool for
their their greed and Ill you know and ignorance basically um Whitney said earlier the courage to
meet your this is really big and I if I could stress anything for guys you know
you know put on your big boy pants and look at your pain you know stop running
all the time from it you know stop um trying to beat it up all the time and
annihilate it if annihilate anything it should be ill will you know um so but
sometimes it does get too extreme for some people and you know we can’t always be mired in our pain thinking I gotta do
all this inner work all the time that’s kind of another extreme right um and it goes back again to Wendy’s
point that she’s made time and time again you know how how is this hard and what does it
need and um yeah how is this hard in the world towards myself and others
and that is the kind of the core and the strength and once we see that and establish that then it just it becomes
obvious that why would I want to harm myself or others because everyone like
me just wants to be you know okay with the world wants to be content happy even you know
yeah I mean I think there is a real problem with if you are dismissive of the harm that
you cause others like somebody tells you oh gee you’re you’re
rude and it’s like ah you’re always saying I’m rude okay so if the one common denominator in all your
relationships is you what is it that people are telling you over and over and over again and that’s not about beating
you up that’s about going all right what do I want to do with this information
and I think that’s that’s what we’re looking at it’s not about oh woe is me
and you know it’s not like I’m any different to anybody else I’m
deeply flawed like you know and so are you and so uh so are all our listeners you know
but so it’s not about that it the reason why I was really saying it’s important
to focus on the love in the beginning is you need that to know that you are still loved even though you’ve got all your
crappy bits and I think that’s really important to to stay in that space it is and I you
know the flaw I see where you’re coming from with that uh at the same time I don’t feel that any of our hearts really
deep the our heart of our hearts this notion of whether it’s flawed or
not doesn’t really apply you know I don’t you know deep within the heart
it’s just trying to be love right and or it’s either being lover trying to be
loved and I don’t know if any kind of perfection or you know um
uh imperfections or Perfections even apply to that you know I but when he
talks about we’re deeply flawed that’s kind of like just a maybe a side effect or the the fact of being in this right
that everybody experiences pain that um you know there’s uh nothing is is is the
way we we can’t control the way we want things in the world in the long term you know it’s not a perfect world obviously
it’s not Flawless and this isn’t a Heavenly realm which leads me to my next
Point too is that the deeper aspect I feel of meditation not deeper because the heart is very deep and profound
right and that’s needed to do anything else anyway I think to any kind of depth
and breadth is this clear seeing and knowing how things are and it’s I’m
reading right now the um the lankavatara Sutra which is
supposedly this one text that Bodhi Dharma who started the Zen tradition the only text he took with him to China from
India it’s a legend and it basically is like the very first half line of the
dhamapada on steroids and I like Gil fronstell’s translation of this all phenomena is preceded by mind
led by mind and made by mind and it based this this this uh it goes
into how everything is a projection of our mind and I don’t know if I’m on board with this or not but what what the
wisdom for me is this and if I can kind of butcher or uh paraphrase from ajan
cha here um that everything in our environment you know is it comes from the mind and
then we get established in this and then we forget this and then that’s when
problems arise so for instance everything look around with the space you’re in here you know just the
physical objects unless they’re from nature and I’ll set that aside then it’s this is a man-made thing uh some human
has had an idea in their mind and then they’ve gone through um uh whatever they did to make these
objects right even the walls uh buildings uh that were in they they come from this idea in the mind and then
they’re carried out you know our streets are roads everything um everything we do in our life you know
um not everything but I mean most things we the activity we do we’re being driven
and led by our mind we have this idea we want to do something and then our mind
motivates us to propel the body to go do what we do say what we say and then uh
yeah and then even before all this happens it’s it’s a thought in the mind
considering possibilities of what we might say or do or create yeah and so this is
this I think it can lead to this deeper wisdom of seeing that everything around us has been uh it’s it’s it’s mind you
know the mind at least influences everything around us you know so I just uh to seeing and knowing this
and remembering that you know uh what we normally take things to be that’s not
the whole picture right it’s we’re most the times we’re not seeing deeply into
life and reality and that’s okay though but I think that this this practice also
has the possibility to see things more how they actually are instead of how we
want them to be and how that might translate to a better
way to be in this and for ourselves and others and
especially in the long term so just listen to what you said about
the I think that sounds like body down is has the um it’s it’s called the
chitta Matra School the mind-only school everything comes from mind
but the mind is of the Mind
so I I think um yes and then where is the that’s a good
question that’s that’s a good point too A lot of it is um that is self-contradictory you know what I was
talking to is just kind of my own experience now the longavatar Sutra it’s just like okay
one way I heard it put is it tries to it tires you out it tires it tires you out
so you’ll just kind of give up on all this stuff uh so I thought that was interesting a lot of it seems really self-contradictory just for instance the
the mind is of the Mind well where is the mind what is that you know how do you you know does that even exist you
know if it doesn’t then then what knows about that how does that work so all these really profound questions
um are they fascinate me and at the same time I have to be careful not to let them get in the way of you know this
thusness or this suchness or beingness and the heart so to me it’s all good
it’s it’s all uh it’s a better hobby than a lot of other things
say that M Reed is on board hello and read hello again it’s nice to have you
around likewise and she says here can you say the mind
is the architect I hope she’s usually on the treadmill so I hope she’s enjoying the treatment yes
the architect yeah it’s like well that that’s a I think that’s a fair
enough thing what do you how do you feel about that Wendy so what do I feel about that how do I
feel about that hello it can also be the deconstructor too right the the the the the Demolisher
not just the Creator but the Destroyer you know hi
I think that the self arises
when it seeks to move away from that which is painful
and the mind thought is that
so I uh so just so you know M Reed has finished her treadmill
and she’s back at her desk just a heads up on that one so
I would say that actually it’s just
I’m not sure that I would say the mind is the architect because we have a body
and the body is is here too
yeah that this is where the you know the historical Buddha said that you can’t really realize Awakening without
mindfulness of the body he stressed it time and time and time again and it’s such a mysterious thing right and the
interplay with the mind and yes maybe the the mind is an architect so much of
us I feel are just running on habit pattern habit energy though that um you know we don’t really have these
most of us I would say I can’t really speak for most of us but we just we just run on you know habits and the things
you know routines things like this and don’t consider a lot of times the minds
um play and influence in this just on autopilot and so if we do go deep within
and investigate this we can see where the mind is influencing and being
influenced by what we do day to day and are patterning and we can investigate
you know if we can see where the source of this patterning is or what fuels it
and what takes the foot off the gas pedal for our habit energy too I think
that’s probably where might be more of a fruitful investigation but I also feel
that it is okay to be inspired by you know how powerful the mind is and how
destructive it can be too you know um how a trained mind will benefit us in
an untrained mind can be our downfall
for sure for sure I think that’s you know going back to our original thing why meditate
because because it’s just a form of training
and it’s a way of keeping us well training in white but you know
training to to be we’ve already said that kind of finding out train the heart
and mind yes I feel that and I like Wendy’s approach that kind of brings me
more back down to earth practicality everyday life and how it benefits and
that there’s so many health benefits too you know this has been documented time and time again uh it’s a good compliment
to my sometimes overly lofty notion that you know all we just need to
do is meditate and we’re going to realize Awakening any any time now and well maybe that might be the case and I
still do it towards that and at the same time I reap all the kind of side effects and benefits of that and try to
um be in this world and be a part of it without being so entangled in the
external world and so entangled in the unwholesome
qualities of my heart and other people’s hearts and sit down and untangle those knots
and meditation is a good place to do that too so Emery says so living integrated in
body in Mind Body Soul the trinity in one living being I.E being whole The
Good the Bad the Ugly of us all um yeah and I was thinking you know
you’re now living in Denmark and you’re moving to England you know for a retreat
um and that’s what you do when you come from the U.S and I’m going back to the
us too here in mid-november that’s the plan anyway
no see I can only be here at three months at a time so I have to leave so
so before I can come back again and tell I work out a more uh more permanent living situation so
I’m kind of nomadic at the point right now so I’ve never lived a nomadic lifestyle but that’s kind of how it’s
been for the year so probably might continue to be for who knows how long so what you’ll notice about living in
different places and living a nomadic life is how much of you how much you
have a habit so obviously not only um with with the fact that you you do
things in a particular way but the way that you understand things
um and your cultural loading on certain words so I read a Blog the other day and it said the pre you know the text oh you
know here’s a Blog about race and class in America and I read it and I could not for the
life of me figure out where the Race part was and it’s clearly very coded in the
language that if you would read it and you go oh that’s completely race related conversation but I’m clueless about that
because the words don’t land in the same way that I go oh yeah we’ve got this huge
um voice referendum now you don’t know anything about that you don’t know what
what that’s about and the complexities about that and until you move to Australia you don’t understand the
complexities of um of kind of race relations in Australia
and the way that it’s loaded and things like that so I think that when we have
we have a habit of mind and what crappy things crappy moments in our
life do is they tell us well this is your your habit and that’s
that’s why being in slightly uncomfortable situations is good for us
now being in really uncomfortable situations is bad for us but being in a
relationship which is generally happy but then you just have difficult things
that’s good yeah this is a really good point we’ve talked
about this in the past of how you know some of us need more of a comfort zone and While others they need
to get out of their comfort zone and trying to stop maintaining the comfort zone at all cost
yeah and that’s right you know in these challenges they show us our our habits and sometimes we don’t see them and
sometimes the the external world will provide like a mirror for us in a way um
um that’s one of these mere teachings I I like these but they’ll it could also show us what we’re doing well at as well
you know perhaps we’ll see so yes um I like Melissa’s point of this this this
wholeness because there’s this kind of fracturing and division
um not only among ourselves but in the external World it seems too so you know
how can we do I mean this is spiritual buzzwords but you know how can how can
there be more alignment you know and wholeness and embodiment you know
um and why are those things kind of important and how does meditation help
with those or what’s a better way to put this you know
yeah it was interesting as you were saying that I thought it’s never going to happen
you know there’s such a yearning for us to live in a peaceful life
but this is where we are this is what we’ve got and to expect that everything
is all the pieces are going to come together in the way you’re dreaming
it’s a good point and and it will come together at certain times but then other times it’ll fall apart again right it’s
uh since nothing can really be gelled in permanent here uh things that are
compounded their their nature you know is is not to stay fixed you know it’s
the changeable nature of things so I guess when I’m talking about these things it’s more of kind of like
um an aspiration you know or a um an aim you know um this this ending
of this this lessening of suffering you know
unsatisfacturingness stress I think maybe it can equate with that so
less stress can equate to more wholeness you know more more alignment with things
that are beneficial things that are skillful you know things that are wise and
um yeah it’s it can happen very gradually and it oftentimes it does you know drop by drop you know we can fill
up a water container or whatnot so what we do say and think matters and
these you know these things kind of seem cliche you know to repeat these things but they
yeah so it to me it’s important anyway
I was just here um Melissa has said and now I know her name uh but living in body makes the
difference where it’s where we can start doing the clearing work taking that
moment to stop and look so that we can make the change if we choose yeah so I
guess I guess Maybe
just this sense that waiting for the world to be how I want it to be so then I will be
happy and that’s what I heard a little bit of in your in in what you said in your aim is to be
like that so that that’s just what I heard a little bit of that’s all I’m saying
yeah and it’s like okay that that’s a real good point and so what I meant more is what I’m responsible for you know
what uh what kind of what what’s my part in all that you know and then whatever
else I can’t really do anything about well then the only thing I can really do about that is how am I seeing it what is
my view on it and then how am I responding to it right so do the things that I can do to to to
to clear out and to you know do the work internally and take care of this body
you know give emphasis to relationships and how I’m relating in the world and my part of that and then everything else
that uh which is most everything that we can’t control that just happens you know
how are we seeing that in our lives what’s our relationship to that and what do we how do we respond to that
including no response is the type of response right
so we’re at time we’re at time we run out so nice to meet you nice to have you
online today Melissa yes now we are not medium in a month
that’s right we’re meeting in two months yes so it’ll be the end of November before we meet again and uh virtually
unless we do some kind of impromptu thing while I’m away but it seems like the the schedule I have overseas and and
the time of day in Australia is just not uh aligning up so
so until November I wish you all the best meditation practice and if you’re
not meditating then the best consideration in research and motivation to do so and I like Wendy’s notion that
sometimes you know it was really helpful that maybe meditation just isn’t right for you at this time so that’s also
something to consider as well so however it may be may it be well
yeah yeah have a lovely evening morning
may this moment be less horrible than it could be
you’re here bye now
Integrating Presence 
42 thoughts on “Why Meditate? | September 28, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #13”