In this eleventh installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we chat about how complex speaking wisely can be. We get into the confusion of words spoken amongst various social and cultural contexts and situations; guidelines; kindness; authenticity; perceptions, intent; responsibility; non-harm; assumptions; dogmatic ideas; entitlement; empowerment; being of service; infringement; and various polarities like callousness and oversensitivity, saying something despite knowing better and not speaking up when you know you need to, and differences amongst and between genders
See also: https://buddhistuniversity.net/tags/communication
Join these Q & A’s when they happen live:
- via downloading the free Wisdom app in your app store or via: https://wisdom.audio where I’m @integratingpresence
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*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or Wisdom App to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: World Wide Wise Speech | August 17, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #11
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
I’ve got Wendy Nash back with me today Wendy how’s it going good thanks I’m calling from Gabby Gabby
country in Queensland and I have a website called or a business called kindlycut the crap.com
which is not uh which has a problem with eligibility for podcasts I’ve discovered
because it actually tips almost into the explicit
category for podcasting so Apple podcast just goes a
bit oh I think that’s offensive so not family
friendly what I didn’t know this and Wendy and I are just I’m a little bit flustered because uh we where do you not
seem to have technical um challenges and difficulties sometimes we even got a little bit late here my
camera just quit working for whatever reasons and I totally forgot that I have to not have headphones on for wisdom app
so I can hear Wendy through my speakers way here we are and we’re um so it
kindly cut the crap that’s come on crap is not an offensive word they have that on American television if you could say
it on American television you can get away with it I think so I don’t understand why that’s the case
um it might depend on what time of the day um so you know I don’t I don’t know there’s
there’s certain words that you cannot say on television no matter what time of day in the states as far as I know but
uh so anyway here we are today when we’re talking about uh I we’ve titled
this world wide from Wise speech in just a second while
we’ve got the yeah that was the YouTube monitoring probably or who knows what that is but so wide
speech um what comes to mind when we say wise
speech what is that all about uh I’ll just have my co-host here what does that
mean to you Wendy what is wise speech
really difficult it’s actually not straightforward it’s a really nuanced thing because it’s so
culturally dependent and like not just say American or
Australian but I was on the train one time and there was a guy um like everybody is older than me and
he used to teach English and this these two teenagers arrived
and they were I mean using language and
that would be completely not allowed on even probably explicit you know Apple
podcast it was really you know derogatory terms for women’s genitalia
but that referred to um a person and they just use that that’s
like you know a guy but they were using this word c word
as a as a as a person a description for just oh you know that guy and
um and he was just this fellow sitting next
to me he was completely confronted by that the use of the word
and I said you know but sociologically that is not an offensive term
they just came from a poor end of town and in an area where
it’s just people have other things to deal with and care for kids and you know
lots of drug alcohol jail that that they would have come out of that demographic
so um so I didn’t find it offensive when they
were using it because it wasn’t offensive but it was social I mean different
sociology so I find that really nuanced so here where I am it’s quite poor and
people F and blind all the time
but so here you know I I went to a meeting yesterday
and a senior staffer at council at the municipality
she’s using those words she heads up
a heads up a very important team at Council so it was it was interesting
and she said oh that’s very vernacular isn’t it she kind of caught herself in that
but it it’s sort of what
it’s it’s nothing exceptional here now I I used to work at the University of
Oxford and there in the team you could swear
and you could effing blind but I came back to Australia and I was
working in a job at one of the senior managers
uh spoke about people as a mother f
and I was like I can tell I don’t work at the University of Oxford anymore because no one used that term that was
deemed way way too offensive um so it’s it’s so new like just swearing
is nuanced and I haven’t even talked about so to me I’m I don’t find swearing such
a problem I’m much more interested in when I was working at Oxford people were
very offended very very easily [Music]
and they said horrible things to me but because they all worked in one language
one culture it meant whatever they actually didn’t realize how
offensive they were when speaking to me they took what I said offensively but then they were saying
so many horrible things and there was no swearing in that language so
I think it’s such a complex thing now you’re living in
Denmark and everyone speaks English and
um and you haven’t yet develop much language skill in Danish I
think is that right yeah little by little little by little yeah it takes time you’ve got to do it but yeah it
takes time so you haven’t learned the nuance and what I always found interesting you know living in Sweden
living in France there is this thing where not only do you translate the
words but actually what I thought was so interesting is that my politics changed
and they became less or more conservative According to which language I was in and which language I had
learned that terminology and that that those language skills because my ex-husband’s family which are
French they’re quite conservative so they use language and it’s only now
when I speak French with somebody and I go oh that’s a derogatory term I think but I didn’t know that because it’s a
word and they they used it re you know fine and I go ah okay I was wrong but as
a foreigner you don’t know all that so it’s very complicated it it is and
this touches on a lot of things and this is a good place to start digging into this especially with the I love this
this cut this curse word thing uh just to dive in here and I mean for me as a
male uh ideally I don’t want to be having a potty mouth around maybe an
old-fashioned but women and children when I’m with you know other guys of
like mine and there’s no one around that we can offend you know then then we can speak more freely or whatever kind of
obscenities when I come out of the mouth I don’t do that as much anymore I used to my dad cusses like a sailor because
he he was a sailor so he was in the Navy so but so I grew
up with that even as a as a youngster all around and uh yeah it’s to me with
this um it also touches on this kind of I don’t know what to call it um uh being offended culture I mean
people are very easily offended I think there’s an agenda pushing that that people don’t want to get offended and
don’t want to offend which I think there’s a huge wisdom in that I think maybe it’s gone almost to the extreme
now where people lead with I’m offended before they even hear anybody’s words
almost maybe I’m exaggerating a little bit but the way I look at this and
um and we’ve maybe mentioned this before and it’s really gained a lot of clarity
when I heard this is when I say something I’m a hundred percent responsible for the intent I have behind
the words what I intend behind that now the outcome is different now about half of it is my
responsibility but I can’t control how the other person receives what I say
even though I’m they’re not totally responsible for it but I’m not totally responsible for how someone uh it lands
and so then then it becomes the intention becomes fairly important right because you know out of 200 percent
let’s say 150 percent of that is my responsibility you know uh and and vice
versa uh I don’t I don’t know if the math makes sense there but right like what I bring what the intent the reason
behind them saying what I’m saying I’m responsible for that that I there’s
nobody else can to do that and then and but then how it lands again is is not all my responsibility so now are there
Universal qualities that are helpful that go across all that aren’t culturally dependent you know
um uh and I would say maybe there is I would say one thing is um non-harming or
um kindness you know and by kindness I mean a lack of ill will and I think that and we could just say
dignity right uh and just you know um and then what perception plays a huge
role in this too right how we perceive things and how other things are perceived uh I think a good gauge is how
it lands in the heart how does it feel in the heart when I hear these words when I speak these words
um you know that and you know um
I’ll come back to the offensive thing later I mean I I other than just say I I wonder if people are holding back things
they need to say because they’re too afraid of potentially offending someone
else I get the respect but I wonder the amount of self-censorship in this too
now um there’s sometimes when we know we shouldn’t say something and we say it
Anyway come on people that’s I mean I’m still I’m you know I still do that from Plenty you’re right you know because I
feel either um uh indignant or you know righteous and I I I I I are entitled to say that
right but there’s the other end too there’s the other end where I know I need to say something but for whatever
reasons I don’t say it maybe if I I perceive the outcome is going to be too inconvenient or I you know I don’t want
to cause um you know I it’s gonna be you know for whatever reasons I I don’t say
it when I know I should say it so I think that’s enough to go on for now okay I was I as you were speaking I
was thinking about a couple of recent interactions so I’m I do Toastmasters which is a
public speaking program and I I do that because I’m in a new
town I want to make friends and hey it’s good for my conf self-confidence and
it’s good for my public speaking I haven’t a community group and I need to speak on behalf of that so
it’s it’s really helpful for that for people that for people that don’t know
can you explain like what a Toastmaster meeting is really briefly so Toastmasters meeting is just you go
along and you meet other people in your town and you learn about giving a speech
that’s it so that you you know say you’ve got you’re in a work culture and you’re giving a presentation you’ve got
your PowerPoint slides up and you want to speak and you have been or you’ve been given this job to speak about
whatever your work is and you need to present to a group the CEO or whoever and you might be nervous as all hell say
well there’s my swear word um and it’s just very helpful for that but there’s a whole lot of other stuff
you’re supposed to take on roles like secretary and you know all this thing and I I’m in a really small one so we’ll
have to do it and you know I dragged my partner along because I’m like you’ve got to do it
because we need the numbers and so he’s not really interested in any of the extra things he does it because whatever
but one of the women she thinks Toastmasters is the be-all and end-all
of everything she just loves it and she gets very self-righteous and she came up
to me the other day at the end of a meeting and she said oh that word you sent out
in that email to all the members that’s not you know you shouldn’t have done that because that didn’t comply with
corporate guidelines on you know you can’t use word games when you’re introducing about an evening I mean it’s
Toastmasters about public speaking and things word games is actually I would have thought who else doesn’t like to
have a bit of fun you know but no she thought that was not right it’s about leadership she was really
highly strung about it and she there was there were a few things where she got pretty pretty sharp and it’s it’s the
thing that was difficult isn’t that she’d wanted it different or whatever it’s it’s not what you say but how you
say it and there is a whole thing so I I you know my my training is in Psychology
so there’s a some researchers called the gottmans um I can’t remember their names but the
gottman Institute and they have a thing where if you want to say anything bad you have to say 19
positive you need to have 19 genuinely positive interactions before you say
anything a bit crappy that’s where we’re number two so
um and but think about that so it means you have to say
Hi how are you pause listen to the answer engage with
your reality ah that sounds bad you know oh yeah let me tell you about my day
that’s the second one now and then you respond to me it means saying thanks for
doing the dishes it means you know doing in the lawn it means
whatever you know all doing the grocery shopping 19 positive interactions
and then you know and you have to say sorry and all this sort of stuff so and then the way you begin a
conversation is the way you end a conversation so if you go up to somebody abruptly hey you need to do it
differently well what you get off what you get at the end is as I did sort of
in my head well said you if you want to do it then if you don’t like it you can do it but of course they can’t so I did
pretty much tell her that after that I think the fourth complaint in four conversations I just went that’s enough
now so but I wasn’t rude it too much but
I did make it clear that you’ve crossed a boundary and excuse me we are volunteers and you don’t speak to people
like that so uh yeah so you need to have very clear boundaries
so it’s not it’s it’s very straightforward so I I’m in the process of giving a speech about giving feedback
so that she gets it in a way that everybody can learn from it without her
knowing without anybody else in the room knowing I’m just giving her sort of instructions on how she could do better
so yeah so that was one indirect you know so I think the thing that we’re
both talking about is it’s not what you say but how you say it so I’m going to give you two more I’m going to give you
another example yesterday I was at this meeting and the
woman who was swearing before I was very senior another woman came and I’ve I’ve met her once at a sort of a weekend
workshop and then I bumped into her at another one of these networking things different environment and I’m not very
good at recognizing people’s faces and I said oh yes recognize you and she said yeah I won the competition
and I was like oh my goodness she was like ah so and then after that and I I
was so taken aback she so slighted me you know she cut me down
and and I was speaking with somebody else probably a bit too loudly and going wow I just had this really intense kind
of conversation and then yesterday when I bumped into her again I saw her and she just didn’t
look at me didn’t look at me and I and she went up to this head of Department lady that I was speaking with and she
said ah hi and it’s so lovely to see you yeah gotta go big hugs and wouldn’t even
acknowledge me so why speech comes there and I have and
this is a message to our listener if you have the guts and if this is your bug
bear like midis with me I want someone you listener to start a group called
don’t be that gal to train women girls and women
basic skills so guys have this thing don’t be
that guy you know when I if I say to you don’t be that guy you know what that means don’t you
yeah absolutely yeah women don’t have an equivalent and we really need it so I
just thought I’d talk about speaking but also intentionally not speaking Yeah
yeah so there you go so that there’s my little beautiful Wendy and I love these these
real life examples I need to bring more of these into to when I speak because I know people really can resonate with
that and I see that too with I mean with women this kind of almost a sleight of
hand you know and uh it’s actually my fiance who said this what I thought was really brilliant and it tied a lot of
things together why do so many people say one thing mean another and yet act
an entirely different way and that’s the classic example of what you just said there you know she said that and she
really didn’t mean that at all I mean she meant actually something else that you know the reason behind that seemed
like it’s not that she was just wanting to give hugs and say hi you know there
was other uh motivations behind what she did and how she said it and then how she
acted um so yeah this is uh this is really good and so I want to ask you for the
suggestions about that what do you think the answer and solutions is to this and before you answer that and you can maybe
um Ponder a little bit you know I’ll just throw these out here maybe these are cliche at this point but I I find
these very helpful the Buddha’s guidelines for wise speech and it is not
speaking falsehoods that’s the biggest thing right we say things honestly and
uh not deliberately lie you know until deliberate falsehoods the other thing
we’re talking about is kindness you know and I would just say a speech that doesn’t cause harm you know and some
people take this the other way where they have this fake niceness is it oh you know and it’s not genuine authentic
and it’s actually the inverted uh way of kindness you know this fake kindness
It’s actually kind of dagger sometimes and then so is it spoken at the right
time you know are we saying it at the right time sometimes it’s just not appropriate to say certain things in
certain situation instances does it create Concord or does it create division you know uh will it bring
people together and this is the one I challenge to have challenges with a lot especially from being the United States
probably more like the divided States right you know how can we cause uh Concord because it’s a divide and
conquer tactic if people are divided amongst themselves well then they’re easier to rule over because they’re not
responsible enough for their own actions and then um I’m missing one more here but I maybe if I remember it I’ll come
back to it but yeah so so I kept a couple of things just
um I I actually was rude yesterday and now I’ve seen M Reed has said a couple of Yips so I want to know and read what
you’re responding to so please sort of put in a bit more comment about where
what is uh clearly something resonating for you and yeah maybe you have an experience so
here’s my experience from yesterday so I was sitting around meeting all these new people networking thing
and one of the women there uh so it’s two things I I think one of the women
there and she said I said oh what do you do and she said well-being and mindset and I and I kind of went oh no and I
actually went oh no really like everybody does that yeah but I’ve been
doing it a long time and it’s like oh it’s really rude you know what did I miss what did you what did she say she
did I’m sorry I missed it well-being and mindset well-being and
mindset okay and I’m just like uh who doesn’t do well-being mindset you know
and I have you know my company thing I have a whole tagline which is you know I
work on the mind not the mindset it’s not just overcoming your limiting beliefs so as soon as she said mindset I
just went I’ll go four don’t get you get over yourself I I was really rude
sorry however it was uh it was authentic though and you weren’t trying to hide and pretend something otherwise so in a
way it was it was it was a kind of kindness maybe it wasn’t loving kindness but you know it was it was an author it
was authentic now now right how do we temper that to make it more palpable
sometimes though right so here’s an another one that’s contemporary so you know I’m doing this
meditation teacher training at the moment and there’s a huge thing and it was one of the reasons I really wanted
to do this one was because um it has a huge racial
uh awareness that I just think is fantastic you know I’m in Australia and
we our our former prime minister last year or the year before said Australia
never had slavery you go I don’t know like that’s the prime minister
I was just oh my God so um you know and
there’s huge amounts of racism we haven’t even begun that conversation yet not even close to beginning that
conversation so but there’s a whole thing on her
him him her him gender pronoun them they
and I was talking with a good friend of mine who’s just like who does Psychotherapy work we we did a
Psychotherapy training together and he had heard this line which was
as long as it makes the other person feel welcome and included
then use the correct language but there is something about the
progressive left and it’s starting to come through which is very this condescending thing so I I read this
book called White fragility by Robin D’Angelo as I’m trying to learn about white racism and Supremacy and all that
and she said uh she quoted this sort of Texan guy and
he said yeah my black my his wife and he said yeah my best friend is black and he
was living up in Massachusetts or somewhere like that at that point and the professor said well isn’t that neat
and so there’s a condescension by the progressive left you’d be a good girl
there and say exactly what it’s sort of got this maternal uh patronizing condescending flavor to
it that you know the poor the heathens the poor people and what was very
interesting in mind quite in as I listened to that is actually the left
Progressive communities physical geographical communities are less
racially diverse in the US and I would say
probably in in Sydney here it’s very very white just for lots of complicated
reasons but actually it’s probably less white than
some the wealthy areas in Sydney so but they all the progressive left they live
in these very white homogeneous communities compared to areas which are more
racially diverse and right-wing conservative
so I I think there is something about when you become overly inclusive like I
listened to one of these videos on the on the on the training and I love this training but it’s like and we welcome
people who are you know women and men and any gender and
transgender and any body shape and any color and I’m and I it and I’m not
against that but there is something which is and and if there’s anybody we’ve forgotten then we welcome you too
you know it was just like it becomes it sort of becomes meaningless and kind of cloying or something yeah so I I think
it’s really important to be polite and have good manners and respect for so I’m definitely not saying we want to go back
to the 70s where people were hideously racist and still are and I’m in a very
racist area so um but
I I don’t know that I like this new flavor of it either I well I’m glad
you’re kind of becoming enlightened so to speak to this because yeah it has gone a little bit overboard I think and
it’s almost I wonder and this is just a wondering if there’s any kind of if
they’re Iran not ironically is the right word but if they’re doing this as a kind
of protection for themselves right because if they live in these huge exclusive opulent white neighborhoods
and they don’t give this face or this appearance of being you know inclusive
and uh you know kind of pandering to I don’t know pandering that’s a strong
word but uh you know maybe placating that’s another strong word but to what
they think they need to say and appear as for their own safety so and maybe
this is a somewhat racist statement but if if just let’s forget demographics
except rich and poor if if they’re not putting on a face to poor people let’s
just say are people that don’t have as much money and uh and you know and then
day after day a lot of people that aren’t well off pass by this neighborhood and they say well why are
these people like have all this opulence and I don’t you know so but if someone
is in this protected opulent neighborhood then they can give the appearance that that they’re for the The
Working Man the common man you know the the poor man and that way they stay protected from any kind of
um retaliation or or you know trouble or problems or anything are people just asking questions or saying things and
speaking things so I wonder if that has anything to do with this you know
um yeah and I mean we’re talking about wise speech here you know like uh sort
of kind speech basic we’re talking about what is kind speech and
you know I have friends in the Progressive left and one friend of mine I was talking about uh the equivalent of
a Republican and I said oh yeah he’s actually A really lovely guy and he has you know I go to his events and because
they’re networking events but I go I’m on the Progressive left um and I go and he’s lovely and he’s
warm and and she’s just like oh yeah but you know and said yeah but he’s so racist and
misogynistic and I said why actually you can’t speak to that I don’t know if he’s like that I know the person who
heads it up that’s my opinion of that guy but the guy who who’s at my who’s my local that’s
not what I see I don’t not see that but I you know I’ve never he’s a politician
he’s going to be lovely um yeah so but this automatic assumption
judgment that is anybody who’s Christian is going to be
homophobic who’s going to be in a conservative church it’s going to be homophobic he’s going to be racist who’s
going to be whatever but now that I say that I wonder if actually it’s a a latent how do you say
this you know like their own their own shadow projected on
a variable could be and you know this is uh the other thing I want to add to the last point was it’s also can be you know
feeling better about themselves too you know because I have all this this I mean but then I don’t want to get into the
privilege thing because that is a thing and that can be overdone too but you know just because they have a nice
comfort zone and they might feel there’s a thing called white guilt too people are feeling guilty for you know even
though they didn’t do anything there’s just seems to be this push oh you should feel guilty about who you are and what
you are because that’s popular right now basically that a lot of times it comes to that but I um so staying in this
comfort zone and also doing what other people say if it’s the the Zeitgeist
then people want to fit into that or they couldn’t become an outcast they don’t want to speak anything different
than what’s being pushed you know in Academia and these things right now but but to speak to your thing this is the
easiest way I find it and and the least maddening way that I know of is just we
connect with people uh heart to heart you know I I do it well individually I know life doesn’t unfold all the time
individual to individual but when when we’re talking to people can we just be present and strip away all our ideas and
um you know stereotypes and agendas and projections and even I don’t know you
know um what this person might look like and reminds me of someone else you know
and what they did and what they said and who they were is it possible to meet someone afresh and stripping all that
because what I find really damaging a lot is that these ideas we already have
in place and when we start applying these ideas and especially beliefs are
even more dangerous a lot of times two something that we don’t even know anything about we haven’t even like
you’re saying we haven’t even spoken to a certain person but we have all these kind of assumptions and
deductions and inferences based on either past experiences or ideologies
and belief systems and what we think we know about something but the thing is we
haven’t even we haven’t even interacted now I’m now I’m balancing this too with our own intuition right we have to we
pay attention deeply to the heart and if the heart is telling us a message you know that’s that’s deeply felt then
that’s something to really pay attention to but you know the the mind has no shame about what it will will say and do
and trick and overlay and all these type of things yeah
yeah I mean it is it I guess it’s such a tricky path
and people I I was meditating the other day and I was thinking about how I get hurt
very readily so when this person at Toastmasters comes up to me and says you
did it you know you shouldn’t do it like that you should do it this way I feel totally offended and hurt and and
criticized you know and I’m too ten I think I’m too tender I take it too much to heart I think some people can manage
to separate that but I I just I always take it super to heart because I’m trying to do my best and and they’re
going no what you did is rubbish um so
um was I going to say just about feeling so I was meditating
feeling sort of a bit hurt by this experience and then I thought
I actually people speak
from hurt it’s like this pinball machine
you know that goes from one hurt to another person’s hurt to another
person’s heart to another person’s hurt to another person’s hurt and it goes
until one person just lets it go and then it passes
yeah yeah but that sort of speech is really what it’s yeah it’s really
important and uh so yeah let’s talk about this in a meditative context in
formal meditation I know um yeah this is the in well what you said first though is the this people
speaking from hurt and I I see that a lot you know there’s so many people have gone through trauma and we’ve talked
about trauma again and again you know uh and so these questions of you know how
do I how does this land you know um if if I was if I was the other person how
would this feel um this being said in in heard and you know
how can we speak more healing words and uh words that are going to be of
encouragement and upliftment and still be authentic without having to put on rose-colored glasses all the time and
our hearts not really in it and I think this is where um compassion can come in you know just
how how much can we open to this or how many boundaries do we need to to
maintain you know so the all this stuff is uh it takes discernment and wisdom to
to know when to and reinforce boundaries when to open up and just be courageous
and let it deeply touch the heart and be moved by it and have the heart quiver
and balance that out with not having a bleeding heart about everything all the time either you know and so one thing in
formal sitting practice with this is I know years ago and this is probably um
frowned upon in meditation circles a lot but you know I was just having this um
these well this is really common in just everyday life right is we rehearse these
conversations we might have with people or it’s replayed over and over oh they said that okay and I said that oh if I
could only have said it this way and or I can’t believe they said it that way
you know and they didn’t even realize that they said this the other time and
who do they think that that and but then also this this this strategy I this
strategizing I used to have is okay well if they say this then I’ll say that but if they say this then I’ll say that and
then how am I going to combine these if they both say that and then where am I gonna it’s just it’s it can be almost
maddening after a while and this is just what um this is what just what the mind
will do if it’s left to its own devices and I think to overcome that uh or to
another way around that is just to have this deep sense of trust that you know I
am doing the best I can if I could do better I would and to just bring make an effort extra effort to bring mindfulness
and into speaking and basically where it’s coming from the intentions in the
heart uh behind it yeah
yeah so M Reed our listener it says we speak from where we are at
at the moment so em read do you feel that
when we’re at our best because my sense is we speak
so often from the past but in in this moment so I was just
thinking about you know the woman at Toastmasters who comes up to me and she’s got her her
agenda and all the rest but I in my reaction no and I and I’m a
five-year-old you know or you know so so
I I feel I I’m not in the par I’m not in the present I’m so got this wounding
from early life which is you’re wrong you’re wrong you’re wrong you don’t know how you
so so that was that but I I think um yeah so do let me know do
let us know and read what you just to expand on that and where where
you feel that might be from um
yeah I I think we’re we’re both talking about and I was I was interested in what
you said there about how do we keep it uplifted and I’m not sure our role is to
keep it uplifted I don’t know that we should be doing that because
if you focus on uplifting people
then you’re you’re not listening [Music] because that’s your agenda that you’re
then putting on to the other person so good point it’s it’s sort of
I want to say a very subtle form of Cruelty I guess what I what I um what that was
informed by was that uh when encountering people that you know the type of people including myself that
will just jump to the the what’s going wrong all the time right this is going
wrong they did this this happened can you believe this why has this always
happened to me on and on and on and on now you can have the other end where it’s talked toxic positivity oh it’s a
beautiful day everything’s going great oh just just smile and great oh no don’t don’t pay attention to that let’s just
you know so that that’s that’s the other opposite and and as far as polarity goes
there’s the other one of you know deeply being affected uh by what someone says
and it really kind of hurting harming or or or the other end going to exuberance
and joy and over you know almost overwhelm of how beautiful things are that that deep sensitivity that’s one
end of it the other end is this kind of this cold hard callousness where I’ll
just say whatever I want and you’re a snowflake and you you know who cares if you have feelings or anything like that
uh this is just the way it is Bam and and so these this unbalance of these two
extremes I I feel I I but I think there’s a time and place for both of you know towards one end or the other
um but you know the discernment again to know when’s the right time to say
something and how it really comes back to how we say this and I would the only thing I would disagree with that Wendy
is in the context of if someone comes looking to us for encouragement and
upliftment and empowerment and ask specifically how to do that then I feel yes that’s that’s called for but you you
really have a good point that yeah if I’m just going to be what do they call it a pollyanish
all the time that’s not very wise either right and you’re right it is kind of
like um stepping on someone’s journey to just go in there and artificially try to lift
them up if they didn’t really ask for it and then again it’s so hard to see
people just continuously wallow in the mud and fall and trip in that mud pit again and again and again and we and we
walk by it every day and we see them splashing around in their their muddy hole you know uh so yeah you know it’s
it’s it’s a tough one I mean what I guess I could do is say hey do you just let me know if you ever want me to throw
your rope down there you know I’m here I can do it just to say the word or is there anything else I can get you while
you’re down there you know would you like a bowl of cereal or you know I don’t know is there but I I just like
this compassion in action is there anything I can do can I help in any way is there anything I can do that way it
shows a willingness for me but it’s not me imposing what I think the other person needs to do to become better
right they then they can they can say yeah what I need all right I’m gonna
give you an example so from my straight so across the road is a woman and her
daughter is is unwell and so I’ve just sort of been you know I
gave her some hints and tips and they’re always lovely they wave at me as when I’m in the garden and everything
and then I went over there and and and the mother said oh yes she’s just got
exactly the same thing that I have I had when you know I had some genetic thing and I just it’s a dental thing
so I’m going oh well that sounds quite concerning now we we have private we
have Pub we have a public health care System here universal healthcare
um but it doesn’t include Dentistry so I said uh okay well maybe if it’s a dental
thing and she’s really not well you know just go to the dentist oh no no no I’ll
go to the doctor and I’ll get a um uh a voucher to go to the dentist and
I’ll book an appointment in sort of you know I’ll go there and I’ll get that and there was something about oh everything
is terrible and it’s really hard and we’re all wallowing in it as you say
and and this and then there was this massive
amount of agency when it came to getting the entitlement benefit the entitled
benefits it was like oh no I I’ll do it that way and she also was sitting there with a
cigarette and a mouth so it leads to this well I feel pretty
judgy actually you know I can hear that I’m I’m quite judgy and and sort of thing but I’m
going well why don’t you just get it sorted you know I I’m sort of middle class aspirational kind of type and I’ve got a
problem and I go yeah you know what I’m going to sort it out but she was like well I’ve got a problem
but they ought to be fixing me
and that’s it rubs up against me and my sense of
you know to me I just found myself really not liking her not wanting to
support her because it just is a bottomless pit an entitlement as far as I could see yeah I
totally see that Wendy and you know it is it this is a different mindset
because if it comes from care then you’re gonna you’re gonna why hasn’t
this happened already you know in her instance I said I’m wondering and your your statement it came from care you
know and actually hers probably did too but in my out view in my look it was
misguided she thinks that the care means that someone needs to see her acknowledge her and then come and offer
her care the thing is though that you know maybe or maybe not the government’s
going to do that but do you expect that I mean who is the government it’s like this nameless faceless thing are there
gonna be people going door to door every day you know checking up and seeing if you’re okay and if you need anything as
far as I know it doesn’t work like that you know you have to reach out in order to to to ask for help and things like
that right but to me what’s really going on there or what I what I’m sensing I could be completely wrong is that she
hasn’t been seen or heard or met and that she wants someone to do that for
her you know or or see the pain and suffering she’s and she can’t give that to herself she doesn’t know how I could
be completely wrong there and this also entitlement I feel sometimes is people
feel their uniqueness isn’t being acknowledged too and so they they feel
entitled that people should pay attention to them and uh and you know I
don’t know I don’t know how this this works exactly but really
entitled to whatever because of how they feel about themselves and how they feel
they’re not being seen or met or heard or and then I’m sure a lot of trauma
comes in but again I’m getting off track here because I’m guessing I don’t know the woman and I shouldn’t probably
shouldn’t say this and it’s it’s nothing I mean they both come from care right
it’s just like they’re different approaches I think yeah yeah yeah but it’s it’s the sort of
part that I expect I feel quite judgy towards her and I I don’t want to I
don’t want to care I don’t I kind of lost my sense of care for her because I felt that
I because of what she said now we’re talking about wise now we have a new person here called Ali Saleh hello ali
um if you have a question please feel welcome to post that in Wendy you know that’s that’s right this is where
Equanimity because we can’t make their choices for them right you care deeply and just because the even the fact that
you think that you might be judgmental that’s caring too because that shows a lot of um
thoughtfulness a lot of people wouldn’t even give a second thought to that so that shows a
lot of thought and thoughtfulness and that comes from care you know even though yeah you think you might be
judging and maybe you are but the thing is that you would even consider that shows the care you know
yeah yeah hey we’re coming up to our last 10 minutes so
what do you think would be well or we can ask Ali Saleh and M Reed if you want
a question please feel free aha Ali has a question says I have a question why do
you try to understand the individual care not care why don’t you just treat them as they treat themselves
interesting huh well it depends on how well I know them
what if I just meet someone I don’t really know how they treat themselves right and I I wonder if it will just
flow naturally too because the the golden rule or you know treat others how we would want to be treated and I I
think that might be a better rubric to go on Because unless I really know how that person treats themself but what if
that person treats themselves like dog crap and you know I don’t want to treat them like dog crap because when I treat
someone like dog crap then I feel like dog crap so um I think that might be in my answer
to that I I would ask um yeah no no that’s I think that’s enough for me go ahead Wendy
I was thinking about that because I you know why do I try to understand the individual because Ali I’m trying to
understand you so that’s why because when we when we
try to understand the individual and I think what what I I have been more in
engaged with is uh this idea that listening to what the
person cares about and I think what I found Difficult by my
neighbor was she seems to care more about getting her
entitlements than getting a solution for her pain
so and I think that’s where I just went burnout so that’s that so I think it’s what does this person care about now M
Reed says if we are hurt or in pain and when we
talk to people person interaction lets the other person know where we are at
so therefore being authentic so maybe you hear
everyone doing mindset Etc so I think that was a comment on about what I was saying before about
mindset so and then she says or he says I don’t think so M Reed I don’t think
you were being rude this is about the person um Ali where I met this lady and she’s
very lovely actually and I said what do you do and she said I doing well-being and mindset and my kind of went oh God
everyone does that so M Reed has put in a comment here I don’t think you were
being rude but yes maybe responding from present moment and not from past experience Etc
aha so sorry doing treadmill what walk while listening hope I’m explaining
enough you you go and read you do your treadmill I love that I’m on the
treadmill why speech on the treadmill
multitasking yeah that’s fantastic where is speech you just go I hope or he I
hope I’m explaining enough I think that’s funny so you’ve got a smiley face there okay but I think to the the for me
the the real thing is trying to listen for the thing that I care about and for
the thing that they care about but I I I can’t I I can’t
I don’t feel I want to care about their sense of entitlement so there you
are aha yeah you’re a woman okay it’s it’s a it’s a um entitlement I mean
it no it it is it’s a core wound actually I think it’s one of the core wounds okay it doesn’t have to be from a
government agency it just feels I’m entitled to this person treating me this way and if they don’t treat me that way
well then screw them because I’m entitled to have everything exactly the way I want it exact all the time and if
anybody else uh violates that well then I can do anything I want to them to get back at them or whatever I mean that’s
the extreme of this entitlement it’s it’s a wound it is a core wound I feel you know so let’s let’s go there we’ve
only got a couple of minutes and if we don’t get far enough today we can pick it up in our next conversation
so but because there is a lot of sort of um in type so I I work in community
advocacy to improve the non-car travel options so I see these they they’re guys
and I I’m I’m gonna classify them as the hunt and shooting fishing guys and they
have these huge trucks and now they’re so huge they make adults look tiny they
only and a fully grown out up standing next to the car is Tiny next to that
this car so um I
I I isn’t it arrogance yeah maybe it is arrogance so it’s over compensation too
they’re complicated for something but but I feel that my heart shuts down when
people people are entitled now I I’ve I find it very difficult to hear
entitlement so um
yeah and maybe that’s because I I have such a strong sense of my own well I’m
entitled to be treated by with respect if I don’t get it then I’m gonna storm off like a four-year-old you know
well no but that’s a good point too so we’re not talking about dignity here I mean every you don’t need to be entitled
to dignity that’s like a human you know that’s just a natural human way of being and that everybody’s worthy of giving
and receiving dignity and that’s yeah that’s not exactly what we’re talking about here right but no I know what you
mean right I mean we can’t demand other people respect us either I know what you mean right as much as I want it you know
I can’t say well wait a second you have to respect me or I’m going to turn you into the police or something you know
you know Yeah well yeah yeah but but I I think there is there is that mentality oh sure
actually currently and I come across it but just going to these big guys these
guys in these huge great big trucks and they’re going yeah I demand to be able to drive everywhere and pedestrian
deaths are on the increase they’re terrible for the environment fossil fuel companies are making a fortune out of
them and they’re absolutely taking them for a ride but they’ve kind of the fossil fuel companies and the car companies have just absolutely sucked
their ego to kind of go yeah look you are the dominant one and they’re
completely taken for a ride which is kind of a pun but anyway sure but we’re at the end of time and I also see that
though Wendy as they it’s a false sense of empowerment they feel belittled by
the world around them they feel powerless and helpless and they think this is going to give them some kind of
sense of power and agency and autonomy in the world and because I have my big
truck that I’m bigger and stronger and powerful and I I feel you know
um strong and and so this is the the this is a kind of a false way of going
about that so if this is a masculine thing then then then men there’s other
ways to empower yourself that aren’t as that aren’t like this that that aren’t confrontational and and do the
intimidating for really no reason other than for you to feel strong and good about yourself that to me it’s actually
um there’s not much courage there or or um honor and and
so you know that’s that’s just the way I look at it but I feel for them because they have been emasculated and depowered
um by things around them too I just don’t feel this is the way to go with it so reach out to me and we can we can uh
talk man to man or you know about things like this too so let’s let’s have a
conversation about men’s men’s speech actually so M raid the woman says some
don’t know any better and I think this is what we’re dealing with we are saying actually we don’t know when any better
when we speak unwisely education education education is the solution to
this you know thank you guys for joining us and we’re going to wrap this up Wendy it’s been
fun and we’re going to do this again at the end of the month you’ll see uh check the website and then and check things
for the the exact times and whatnot but Emery has said no I think she doesn’t
want us to go or she said he is oh hey just join us next time we’ll be at this
time in a couple of do you know what the date is
yeah you can check it out later but just for those that are just listening it’s
going to be the 31st at uh the same time so yes 8am Central European Time
so wherever you are M Reed and uh Ali Saleh you are welcome to join us at this
time on the on the 31st so here that’s 4 P.M on the 31st Brisbane time wherever
you are so and Josh you’re in Denmark and it was what time did you say uh 8
A.M Central that’s Central European Time that’s right okay 8 A.M in Denmark time so am read says thumbs up well we’ve had
it’s been great having you guys on so just do do come back and we look forward to catching up with you then
thanks for everybody that joined on wisdom app too bye now bye
Integrating Presence 
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