In this thirty-third installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into boundaries, especially as they relate to mindfulness, empathy, and personal/professional relationships. Wendy has mentioned previously that she often explores this theme in her work with clients and that it resonates strongly with many people. We also touch on loss, recovery, honesty, etc.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Boundaries | “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #33
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
integrating presence joined with Wendy Nash once again. Wendy, how’s it going?
I’m good. I’m here on Gabby Gabby Country in Queensland. So, it’s winter. I’m cold. What can I
say? My cat’s got the the heated rug. It’s so wild. Uh I haven’t been to the
Southern Hemisphere yet, and here in in Denmark, uh it’s such a nice It almost seems It’s summer, but it seems almost
like a spring day so far. But this Nordic sun is uh it’s no joke, you know.
I I think it’s it’s fairly intense. Uh it’s deceptively intense because the the air temperature is nice and cool. Uh so
then I think, oh, the sun’s not as bright as it is, but it’s early in the morning here, so it’s it will get more
intense. So this will be the perfect time to be out in like this today. And today we’re talking about boundaries.
So, my little thing is my little description
here. In this 33rd installment of the ongoing live series of Wendy Nash, inquiring into meditation practice on
and off the cushion, we plan to delve into boundaries, especially as they relate to mindfulness, empathy, and
personal professional relationships. Wendy has mentioned previously that she often explores this theme in her work
with clients and that it resonates strongly with many people. And I thought before we get into this, we could uh I
would just mention a couple um like physical boundaries and things. And so that’s not what we’re going to be
talking about today, but just kind of as a more solid reference point. I mean, the most immediate one is the one behind
me. It’s a hedro. You can’t really see it without context, but our little garden here is fenced in by hedro. And
this is a foreign thing. Like in America, it’s very rare. There’s fences. Usually people make fences, either white
picket fences or animal fences for fields. There’s not a lot of hedgeros,
but they’re everywhere. Like in Denmark, in England, and I would assume other places in Europe, too. I haven’t been to
too many places, but this is like a um a noticeable physical boundary that divides one idea or group of land to
another. And then in the States, we have what’s called Well, we have country boundaries. Wendy, did you Oh, you’re
you’re still Everything’s okay. I’m I’m still here. I’m just There’s I’m reading a book about uh called Something
Between Us, and it’s um something about the everyday walls of American
um of American life and how to take them down. So, and they’re the invisible ones, you know, it’s racism and it’s
also cars and it’s also it’s very interesting. So, um I’ve just started.
It’s great raid. Well, cool. Yeah, we can get into some of the ideas of that. The um the other
one that I think everyone’s familiar with is these boundaries of countries. These are political. So, these are less
physical, but as we get onto the border of a lot of different countries, they are physicalized, right? There’s border
guards, there’s, you know, customs controls, people involved, maybe even
weapons enforcing these um boundaries that are basically ideas that people
have agreed upon. And it’s so fascinating to know that you can just cross this walk in one step and then all
of a sudden the language changes, the culture changes, the ideas, even the way
people look and things like this. And how bizarre I think that is to me to to
know that it’s not I guess applicable as it is in uh uh Australia I guess because
you know everybody’s I mean it’s an island right but then within the states we have these things called states and
they’re not as enforced boundaries but there’s a there’s a noticeable difference uh going from one state to
another there’s a lot of similarities but there’s also noticeable differences and then less um defined boundaries
there’s counties within the states and some people really know notice a huge
difference. I mean, you watch old American movies, oh, I made it past the county line, now the cop can’t get me or
something like this. But we were just walking one to the other and it would have never even known had there not been
a sign there. So, there’s we get really noticeable boundaries and we have these
really slight boundaries even in the physical world. So they can go from very subtle to very defined and reinforced
and and when you look at sometimes boundaries can be helpful and I think sometimes they can be um harmful like
Wendy was alluding at too. So So what do you what do you have to say about kind of the more clear notions of this before
we get into um the less clear notions I guess? Yeah. So that’s a great way of bringing
in the the topic because historically throughout most of history
people have just moved they’ve just walked from one side of the hill to the other or across the bridge across the
river or whatever. You know, China, I think, has historically had very clear
boundaries and you needed a letter of introduction to not be killed. And I know in Aboriginal countries, you don’t
cross into other people’s countries cuz there were, I don’t know, 300 different countries before white people took it
over. And you you on pain of death, you know, like you didn’t sneak there. You
had to to do it by through correct protocol by you arrived at the sort of
edge of your country. Then you started a fire that would attract people to come
and investigate and inquire and then you sought permission and where is the food and all these sorts of things and it was
very very strict protocols. Um and then as you were saying that I you know I
have a lot to do with transport so because of my community group. So I’ve also learned about urban planning and
different transport modes and things like redlinining which is a
political boundary and how or it’s a I guess it’s the
enactment of a political ideology u which is very clear and although it
physically doesn’t exist it still emotionally exists in the US uh we don’t
have that so here so much. There are towns. It’s complicated because they’re
in remote areas. Um, but the other thing is that when you have
a transport mode, then actually the and you were talking
about old movies, they had went up to the county, but it’s often dependent on
how far the transport mode can travel, how easy it is. So
for instance, what the research has found is that
people will commute 60 minutes to work and that’ll be fine. Once it gets to 90
minutes to work, they get really jack of it and they either they chuck in the job or they chuck in the home. One of them
kind of has to go because the physical boundary, the wear and tear on the body and the
mind and the family are actually there’s a lot of, you know, people get really
grumpy on the roads because they’re tired, there’s congestion, people are aggressive on the roads. So there’s a
boundary by a time boundary in that instance that is based on infrastructure. So when we had smaller
villages, people walked an hour to their workplace, no more. That is, they worked
off site, you know, whatever. And then there were horses, so people worked a
little bit further away. And then there were trams, and so people walked worked a little bit further away. And now there
are cars, and so people do these huge distances, but the journey time is the
same. I think that’s really interesting about this idea of boundary.
And as for national boundaries, that only started, I believe, during the
First World War with soldiers. That’s that’s when that began. Before that, people just hopcuadled everywhere. So
there you are. That’s boundaries from that perspective. Huh. I didn’t really know that. uh that
I guess what you mean by the World War I is then it became more enforced and noticeable where these boundaries were.
I mean I guess people could just I I don’t even know get on a ship and just go wherever you want whenever you wanted
and then they didn’t really say well this part is this part of this land belongs to this
country. Yeah. I don’t even know how I think I think um so people did have
different countries. There’s no two ways about that. But the passport which said I am of this
nationality. So that’s that’s where I was incorrect. That physical paper boundary
which created a kind of an idea of that really became implemented and that
started with soldiers in the first world war. But yes, of course, you know, you have these stories about places like
Iran and Iraq which were divided up according to the riches that the gold
the oil barons wanted. True. And so they divided it up and they’ve been fighting. Afghanistan’s been
fighting ever since, you know, the the sort of plunder of country of of of the the goods of those countries.
And then we have something like the end of World War II where Israel was not there before in the same way. it’s
completely created and it’s a huge political football and hot button that we don’t want to get in at least I don’t
want to get into right now but and then we have this notion of um digital boundaries too I guess like you know it
really has erased in a way a lot of our uh communication protocols with the internet like uh in some ways but in
other ways there’s been other challenges of course but like like Wendy and I are I’m an American in Denmark and Wendy’s
in Australia and it’s just like we’re right in front of each other virtually you know what I mean? Um, you know, it’s
if we align the time right, you know, it it it’s not too disruptive and we’re
able to do this where it’s it’s not usually I could just fly to Australia or Wendy could fly to Europe, you know,
every month to do this face to face. Uh, maybe in a perfect world, but with
really supersonic jets where it would take a lot less or something. But yeah, so this notion of that and how that
plays into how we interact with people, you know, hiding behind anonymity is is
um both freeing for a lot of people who would never speak up, you know, but then
it’s gone to the other extreme where people can just think they can get away with ever what they they say that can be
uh beyond harmful, I would say. Yeah. Yeah.
So, and then it’s difficult because that, you know, I write to politicians
and I write to council and I write to transport agencies and it’s so tempting to think about the
organization as a as a solid entity. And I was actually going back to meditation.
I was actually thinking about my meditation and this what is it that I experience? You know in Tibetan Buddhism
they say getting what you don’t want and not getting what you do want is the foundation of duka.
Oh yeah. and and and I went ah I feel
let down by them in whatever form and just and I was going you know council
lets me down and of course council is made up of all the individual players but in my own mind it’s the authority
figure and we say no so you know I was like ah so maddening and transport
agencies as well so this idea of being let down and this division in the mind
between me and you right wrong has that boundary you know the worldly winds
I was really curious about that at the moment about fame and disgrace and how
that becomes a mental boundary because I only want the good stuff and I don’t want any of the bad stuff and I realized
if I don’t want to have the bad stuff well I can’t have any of the good stuff either And that was quite disappointing.
So over to you, Josh. No, that’s that’s a really good point. I mean, that’s where our everyday dooka
is, you know, getting what we don’t want, not not getting what we want. And I mean, we experience that time and time
again, but most of us are don’t even realize that in autopilot and and uh think that yeah, it just it spirals off
into there. But if once we recognize and see that as a reality that’s not a failure on our part or even the world in
a sense because that’s just the way that that which is conditioned is is or
arises due to causes conditions is subject to to perish and uh it’s
impossible um to to get everything we want all the time and not get what we don’t want all
the time even when we put so much effort into setting up the right conditions. Yeah, it helps and we should still do
that, but it’s an impossibility because in the long term we’re not going to be able to maintain those conditions the
way we want to get what we want and not get what we don’t want. And this notion Wendy talked about these groups and how
kind of maddening it is. It’s the same way with like a corporation because the people in so a corporation corpse is a
dead thing. So it’s almost like this dead entity is given personhood and a
kind of pseudo life I guess you know uh in the minds and hearts of people but
also in law and however all that works. Um so it it’s this weird um vague quasi
whatever thing and then the people on these uh councils and groups too they can use that to their advantage which is
both good and bad I guess they if you try to address you know one or more
individually on an individualistic level then they can either take that on if they want but they can also say oh no
that that doesn’t really apply because we’re a council as a whole you know so they can bounce back and forth um to
however they want for their advantage and their agenda. But if a singular person is coming or an individual is
coming along, you know that that dynamic needs to be flown and work with too I
feel to to interact because they can so easily you know put it on someone else
within the group or as the group as a whole or you know go into their their values and their agenda but also pull
back you know how their personal agendas and um and ideas either clash or um
align with the groups and then whoever from the outside is is you know seeking
interface I guess but yeah it’s it’s it’s a strange dynamic here so so in in
that yeah the these these um yeah yeah yeah
and all right yeah so just coming back to meditation
what I was thinking about is um so I kind of got this insight So you
know when you get really frazzled, let me think about
it. It’s about boundaries and you receive something which is really
somebody really irritates you in some quality and there’s a shadow side to you
which is not owned here. And so because it’s not owned, we can’t
actually form a boundary of ourselves. There is no self. that is now I’m not
talking about it from a you know anata kind of perspective I’m talking about
the sense of self that is here that we need to have in order to have healthy
boundaries with ourselves and others but because we have this shadow which is
unformed we merge with the other side and then we get irritated for them for their bad
behavior when it’s our shadow which is exactly the same because when we feel
when we have good boundaries when we have a good sense of self firm boundaries are no problem. So I’m
working with a friend of mine and it’s a very interesting technique. So she comes we do it sort of four days a week she
comes she tells me a problem for 5 10 minutes and then I do a guided
meditation about that. So she starts to gain a sense of self and recognize
that’s very guided tailored to the problem she’s got. And then we debrief and we finish at half an hour. And that
process has allowed her to develop some skills and kind of come up with her own
boundaries and a sense of self. And she says, “It’s so hard to with the kids to
say no because I feel so mean. But I realized by not saying no to the boys
that I’m going to make their lives worse. So it’s even meaner.
And it was such a revelation for her through this meditation practice to gain a sense of self that this allowed her to
have very clear boundaries. So before she would have been quite ambiguous because the shadow self would have been
under formulated and overmerged with the other person.
And you know, we want to say you’re separate from me, but we’re merged because of our shadow self. I hope that
makes sense. And then yeah, and so how how now that she’s very
clear in her mind about her sense of self, she has very clear boundaries. And it’s Pemma Chron who says good
boundaries are about good communication or good communication is about good boundaries. And I think when you
meditate a lot, these arguments that we have of he said that, she said that, she
said that, he he said, and what should I do and it’s not fair and all the rest,
they settle and they give you opportunities for clarity to see, ah, no, this is my clear edge actually. So
over to you, Josh. There was one thing that I wanted to pick up on there, but I I see this
notion of of shadow too. I think another dynamic I I look at this is um when
someone uh this comes from another teacher that when something annoys me uh and I feel irritated a little bit um and
I didn’t see the connection at all. I had to sit with it and and not all the time but it sometimes it shows that I
feel not appreciated you know so it doesn’t seem immediately apparent but um
sometimes it seems to be the case you know when I feel irritated it it feels like I’m not getting a sense of
appreciation well that’s a whole another dynamic because we can’t I I can’t expect others to appreciate me you know
that has to come from me within me so uh if I’m looking for kind of um external
uh validation in the exact way that I have to have it all the time and I don’t get it. Well, then I can get annoyed.
But this is kind of a more subtle background layer. I think with this too about um is preferences in feeling. So
usually if someone doesn’t do something the way I like it or I find some
distaste with how someone is and how they do something or or they say something and then I feel unpleasant,
you know, then I can get irritated and annoyed with them too. So this is the
venom. I think it’s really important to to look at this too. I I think Wendy’s framing is really helpful with the with
the shadow self because obviously there’s something in me that’s I’m still getting triggered by and annoyed and
upset, right? And that trigger shows me what I need to work on and Wendy’s framed it in the shadow. I I see the
only thing I see kind of a danger at that is just seeing shadows in me everywhere all the time. And that’s not
the case either. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re just not pretending they’re not there either, you
know. But there are times like when we’re in full light or whatever where there isn’t many shadows or um the
shadows not having a significant impact on our reality too. So I just want to
add that as a kind of a counterbalance. But yes, so many so many of us uh ignore and deny our shadow aspects. I will say
some people focus a little bit too much on it. But but for the most part, I say the most of us um that’s why that’s
called shadow because we don’t really notice it, but it’s it’s there so much of the time and it does have this or can
have this significant impact. But when somebody does something that I find distasteful, I don’t like a lot of times
it’s just based on my preferences. And you know, it’s okay to have preferences. I don’t think it’s going to be really hard to get rid of our preferences.
That’s how we can make choices, I think, easier and um you know, kind of know
where to orient to sometimes. But it’s when I cling to I have to have my
preference the way I want it or I’m going to get upset and annoyed and then that unpleasantness uh a lot of times
will be there and I don’t even realize that there’s the unpleasantness there. And so then the way I see the world is
colored by that. The way I think especially the way I think um is colored
by that because I’m I’m sometimes I’m strategizing how to okay this is unpleasant. What do I do about it? How
do I get it away? How do I change it? How do I substitute something so I get more pleasure? And that’s not necessarily wrong. It’s just an
exhausting process that doesn’t have to happen all the time, you know? Can I be
okay with how it is? You know, too, you know. So, all of those things, the theme that
I heard, you know, you want validation or acknowledgement or you um getting
whatever it was that you said, all of that makes me think that you just feel let down by the other person. Yeah,
that’s right. Yeah. And and that comes from expectations. Expectations. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. But so if we’re talking
about boundaries, if the simple boundary here is to go,
I I feel let down by the other person. and just rather than it being I need to
work this out and figure it out, but just to experience it as a and I want to
say this is a an a personal boundary about developing practice. So instead of
saying okay, how do I strategize my way around this? Say I feel let down. Yes,
it’s true. I feel let down. and just simply allowing that. And if that becomes a personal practice and a daily
constant practice at some level, what you’re doing there is you’re developing
sort of a sense of self around that because you know we’re always
disappointed by other people. But I think this what’s really interesting is
this idea of expectation. And then when we have an expectation and we lash out and then that’s we’re crossing a
boundary and our idea of who we are and again
expectation and then we feel shame. So I haven’t quite figured out yet how the
mind works with regards to this sense of separation this internal framework which
for me feels almost like a washing line. You know in Australia we have a Hills hoist washing line which is those what
do you call it like it’s four it’s two bars that are crossed and then you have the the washing line that goes around
rotary washing you hang you hang laundry to dry on it. Yes. Exactly. So it feels like it’s very
solid but I know it’s not but it’s a it’s a structure of the mind and I don’t
know where that boundary lies but it’s definitely got an edge there. And I I’m
super curious about what is that? Again, this is where the rubber meets the road to um to to to acknowledge what
you talked about with acknowledgement is so important. You know, that is the first step of compassion, too, is
acknowledging it instead of pretending it’s not there or fighting against it right away. At least this a moment I
feel let down. I acknowledge this is this is the reality right now. I’m not trying to pretend it away or pretend
it’s not there or think that I’m above it or beyond it yet. No, there is a let down here, you know. So that
acknowledgement that it’s just such a huge relief right away, you know, instead of a lot of people will lie to
themselves and or pretend it’s not there, deny it, right? So it’s a huge relief. Um and acknowledging things in
others too. Um, yeah, maybe they might not be that accurate, but if if we don’t
have this habit of not habit, but I mean practice, I guess, of doing this, it can be really helpful again to
counterbalance this. I don’t want to get stuck in one way of acknowledgement and
then use that as a reinforcing mechanism to see it everywhere as a confirmation bias either. That’s not what we’re
talking about, right? I don’t go around now. Okay. Yeah. I then overidentifying with I’m a let down person. That’s who I
am. I’m always let down by myself and others and yeah, it’s just see and then using everything as um confirmation for
that. Right. So that’s kind of the distorted version of what we’re talking about here.
But what if I am a let down to myself? What if Yeah. Well, and see that’s No, it’s
really I am a total f What if I don’t? Yeah. No, that’s a really good point. Yeah. You know, like but I want to bring some
lightness in here because and that’s you know, you exactly answered your own question. That’s what has to happen you know once that
acknowledgement is there okay what do we do about it because if if we just keep feeding the same thing it’s just going
to keep strengthening and forcing the thing same thing so with the brahma for that one let down what about when we’re
not let down the exact opposite what about when I um am overjoyed by u doing
something for someone or someone doing something for me or even just um saying
u kind words and uplifting words to someone or some words that someone has and um that are not let down that are
the opposite of let down that that I am uh have been uplifted or uplifting. It
has to be authentic though. We can’t just pretend uh and sometimes and then that acknowledgement again. Okay, that’s
just not resonating for me right now. I can see the benefit of that in the future, but right now that’s inauthentic. And that right there is
uplifting. And seeing the uplifting versions of being honest with ourselves and being let down. Hey, I’m not lying
to myself. I’m being real here. And that is in alignment with truth and with with
the the truth of the way things are closer to it. That in itself can bring happiness because we’re not living in a
delusion. we’re not um you know denying or trying to do unhealthy strategies uh
to to get out of these uncomfortable truths sometimes. Just the fact that we’re willing and able to do that to me
is is can lift the heart, you know, and is a huge support. Um
I guess the only thing I’m not sure is is that we are we ever true? Are we ever
like may I try and always be sincere but sometimes I fudge it you know sometimes
and and it’s not that I’m insincere although sometimes I am insincere you know sometimes I do lie it’s no
there’s no way you know I’ve got to go now bye you know or uh a friend of mine
said that what she used to do when she was on the phone call and somebody rang and the phone call was going on and on
and on and she she would go to the door and she would knock on the for on the inside and so
someone’s sorry got to go someone’s just arrived and I’ve done that and
but unfortunately the other person couldn’t hear the person knocking and didn’t notice that
but so there are we are I don’t know I want to say we are not always acting in
our best self sure and then I don’t know I think we don’t have 100% perfect social skills M
and I don’t know like it’s difficult cuz I don’t want to hurt people either. And
sometimes I fudge it and if they go but you said that then I go yeah I didn’t want to do that because XY Z I thought I
was worried about you getting hurt and so that’s why I did it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but but it does Yeah. It’s difficult.
It’s it’s relationships. You know here we are talking about boundaries
and I think we have ethical boundaries and in terms of meditation how would you
feel what what do you feel is a boundary in relation to meditation?
Yeah, I’m going to get into that um because that’s what this this show is. I
want to address something you said real quick and this is really important too. the precepts um our meditation really
isn’t going to be as fruitful and it’s just kind of like a um maybe an aspirin
I think that if we don’t have a really firm um precepts practice and or
training we just put it as a training and so it’s okay you know most people it is a training of course and I’m still
training in precepts and um and but that acknowledgement of when it is and realizing how they are for our benefit
now if if I may with your example about on the phone. And I I get it. First off,
I get it. Um we It’s almost like this almost like an act of desperation that I
Okay, I need to care for myself now and I don’t know what else to do and I can’t take this anymore and I have to take
care of me now, you know, and so yeah, and I totally get with that. And that’s that’s what was the helpful part of
that. And to me, I just I get creative with things like this. You know what
I’ve done before? I take my um if I have a phone, then I will turn the volume all the way down. I’ll walk away from the
phone and just leave them talk. You know, um you know, first make it clear
uh you know, at least I was making it clear that this is um you know, this is not the best thing for me to just Well,
anyway, but then I just do that. So, it comes from the intent like I get it. you. It’s a mixed intent from what I
understand. It was that you need to shut down now because I can’t this is not helpful for me and this is going to harm
me if I keep going any longer. However, the I also think the mix intent was I I I need to do something
uh probably a little bit maybe hurtful or the intent was there. I don’t think you actually hurt them, but to deceive
that, you know, to to knock was like saying I need to I need to Well, maybe not. I shouldn’t say that. So, so you
know what I mean? But, uh, so, and I shouldn’t say I don’t want to blame you or say you you did it wrong. It’s just
like, uh, when I look at these things, it’s like, is there creative ways? Actually, when you said, “Oh, I have to go right now.” Um, all it would have
been to not be um lying is just thought of something you actually had to do. You know, even if it was like, “Oh, I got to
brush my teeth right now.” You know, or I have to go do this right now. It could be, I have to go open and close the door
right now because I want some fresh air in for a second. you know, it can actually be based on something other
than straight up deceit. I mean, it could be trivial, but it’s not necessarily, you know what I mean? But
like like I said um this is this is a training and I don’t want to blame so much you know because that notion of
care is is really helpful you know so so you know I mean we’re sort of
talking about boundaries here and in our meditation practice it is time to think about our ethics. So what do we deem as
ethical? And it’s it’s hard. So and
very hard. It’s very hard. So a couple of things. One is that women are ins snared by
multiple relationships in a way that men just aren’t. Exactly. So we get lumbered
with long huge career responsibilities that with you know great aunt Mildrid
that we’ve got to listen to rambling on and on and on for 4 hours you know and great aunt Mildrid is extremely lonely
so it after the third call that week it’s a bit tiresome you know so I I think there
is also a cultural thing here for women about how do you navigate that space
but there was also There’s something else I wanted to bring in and I just
thought about it. One was about the communication and it was about the precepts. I’ve sort
of but it’s Yeah, you go. We can definitely come back to that. Yeah,
we need to get into the boundaries now. And you were saying, how do you really even know if it’s true? And I would just
say, yeah, the what does it feel like? You know, is it in accord with reality too or not? You know, uh and then we we
ask for feedback from wise people, right? And we be okay with not knowing and that we don’t always know all the
time and it’s not always clear and that’s okay, too. That’s that’s how I look at that. And that that honest
acknowledgement. I think uh we we can know when levels of honesty I think that
we have uh towards ourselves and other and sometimes we can’t you know sometimes it really just strikes me oh
this I really know that I’m deceiving someone here oh I did oh that or realize
later oh I wasn’t completely 100% truthful with what I said there now I’m realizing it but it’s later that I
realize that you know yeah well it’s interesting because I have a friend and she says oh it’s like being
honest is is sort of new. Yeah. For a lot of people, that’s she’s Yeah. It’s a new experience for
her. So, I think that it’s not what people
really appreciate me is my sincerity. There’s no two ways about it. Um, yeah. So
I I think it’s not always it’s really I think communication
boundary setting in our current society in any society is really really difficult
and yeah so some people will create boundaries
and we’re talking about meditation here but
you know what if you in your insight in your meditation practice you realize
that you have been lying there was a book called mindful recovery 20 years ago I don’t know if you know about it
and it was and it talked about when you become when you get over your alcohol or
drug addiction one of the things and you might have to start look at places where
you are not honest and it’s really hard to lie to yourself it’s really easy to lie to yourself. A lot of people lie to
themselves and I think that’s usually the part that is the hardest lie, you know.
But um in this book, Mindful Recovery, what it was saying was if you’re
required to lie for your job, if you are a sales rep, you might have to give up
your job, your income. And I think that in the dharma when
you’re practicing meditation, I think that people do lose their marriages,
they lose their careers, they end friendships because they are actually
standing up for themselves and they are creating stronger boundaries. But there’s a loss there.
And as they become more themselves, I there’s a huge amount of loss that
arises. And you know, you’ve been doing a lot of meditation in this past year or
whatever it is since you’ve been going back and forth to Denmark and traveling all over the world. You’ve been doing
lots and lots of meditation. So, how would you describe your own sense of
your own boundaries has shifted because you’ve done so much
more meditation? Well, that that is really easy and apparent and immediate. First off, I
want to acknowledge what Wendy said too about um the the the extra challenges that that females, women, just
oldfashioned term here, have over males. you know, they I mean haven’t even walked down the street and go outside
their house and start assessing, you know, which male can be more um that I
you know, that could be a potential harm and threat just because they men are still the way they are, you know. Um and
you know yes of course um this is the way the species uh survives I guess to get a little risque here by you know
seeking out mating opportunities but it has gone over to the extreme a lot of
times too you know where it’s uh so there’s just a lot of men are pigs you
know and I’ve been there too um so and it’s just and it’s it’s not all to to
blame on them the culture and this is another the culture of dishonesty a culture of lying look got American
sitcoms when I was it it’s um it’s it’s it’s it was hip and fashionable. I don’t know if it still is because I haven’t
got into pop culture in a long time really to to to pretend you’re foolish to pretend you’re an idiot and that
that’s how you’re a cunning and you’re going to get ahead in the world if you pretend to be a useful idiot or a uh you
know um yeah a buffoon or you know you lie to get ahead. You deceive and take
advantage of people whenever you can. That’s how you get ahead in this world. that’s how you succeed and that’s how you get everything you want. So it’s
everything is kind of stacked against us in that. Now Wendy asked about uh this notion of so I was always confused by
this because this is one thing that I felt of all the other precepts that uh yeah this is one that I felt I was
fairly good at because I just didn’t see the point of it. I didn’t want to keep track of all the times I I I said
something that was deceptive and then somebody couldn’t call me out and then I would have to spend so much time keeping
that lie straight and sorting it out and who did I tell who did I not tell now
what I have to tell them if they say this instead of so it’s just it’s kind of maddening for me to keep so I I
didn’t see the value in it and I just saw um I I just didn’t want to associate with a lot of people that were really
into deceiving um I mean and deception for the most part uh either to get back at someone or to protect oneself. So I
get it if someone’s trying to protect themselves but there I I feel there’s there’s there’s more effective ways of
protection too. So w with this um my early meditation experience
and then I was no stranger to loss. I had like my my first real relationship and it was so painful to lose that. Um,
and I I so I stayed in loss in order so I wouldn’t have to experience the pain
of loss again, you know. So I stayed in that for years because that loss was so
painful. I never wanted to go through such a loss like that again, which was kind of backwards in a way. So this is
one of the reflections that the Buddha wants us to to to reflect on, you know, every day is loss that everything we
hold dear is going to be separated from us, you know, either by arangement or death. There’s no way around that. You
know, that is an inevitable truth. And you know, instead of pretending that’s not like it is, denying it, covering it
up, you know, trying to cope with it in other ways, actually reflecting on that for a minute, it it brings a sense of
happiness because, you know, yeah, I I’m I’m facing that truth. I’m okay with it.
And then I’m my heart is conditioned more for that inevitability. So when that loss comes, I’m not as affected in
in in so much um unhelpful grief over it or the grieving process goes quicker,
you know. So that is really it’s been really helpful for me. So so I was no stranger to loss when I first started.
And then actually there are some losses that are beneficial like I didn’t realize uh some of the company I was
keeping before I started going inward in practicing meditation. So yes, it was um
it was a little painful to lose some friends in the beginning, but it was it was so much uh better in the long run
because then I attracted you know people that were better for me and uh people
that I could contribute to and all all better. So, but it was that time
transition time between the falling away and the aloneeness basically and uh kind
of isolation uh in a way I mean in a way looking back it was more seclusion for
for healing and undergoing a transformation process and sometimes we just need that alone time and that sense
of loneliness. I think it doesn’t have to be judged. Uh it can actually be very helpful. So in in that way it just took
time and care and then it attracted new friends and new experiences and new opportunities. Um yeah so uh the honesty
for me more was remembering things I had forgotten about. Um there was old memories I guess that were kind of too
painful that had gone off to the side and so then I was coming back with these and I was oh my gosh I can’t believe I
said this did this or they did that and so going through that material like we would do in therapy and working with
that. So uh I it was actually a regaining in a sense uh of some things
but then a deliberate losing as well. So then I could have choices of what I wanted to let go of once it was kind of
healed if that makes sense. So I want to transition to here into what is even is a boundary because if we go inside a
meditation we get really calm and still the physical boundary. It’s not like we
I think experience a lot of time during our everyday waking life, right? The the the boundaries of where the even skin is
or where the body starts and stops kind of goes away. You know, look our hand,
right? We don’t even really know where does the finger start and stop. You know, these names and you know, you can
say there, but if you get down to a microscopic level, it’s really hard to know exactly where everything is. But
this notion of energetic boundaries, I think, are noticeable, right? When when
someone does something that’s not okay, the obvious one is abuse. Okay. Um when
when there’s obvious and clear harm and then we know I’m harmed by that, that’s
that’s not okay. But it is it can be a challenge to know what is mine and what is the others, right? Um, and I I don’t
necessar I think one way to get around this, okay, what is mine? What is theirs is is then looking at kind of guidelines
and values, right? So then it doesn’t matter so much if it’s theirs or mine.
This is happening. This has been established beforehand. So what do I need to do about it now? Do I need to
strengthen my boundary? Do I need to pull back because they’re not respecting this boundary and strengthen it? or or
or maybe I’m not respecting their boundary or my own boundary. So, I think one of the ways to do this is is set
some clear guidelines and some qualities and then have some evaluation
um and then bring in trusted friends and and teachers too to make sure that we’re
we’re not being deluded in what that is and and talk it through some other
people if we’re unclear on exactly what is the boundary points are. Yeah.
Where our boundaries are, where they’re not, what constitutes a boundary, what doesn’t, how permeable it needs to be or
how solid it needs to be, how strong or how weak it can be too.
So there were a couple of things I thought about with the praa parita and you know no eye, no ears, no body,
no tongue, no m whatever, no attainment, no non-attainment.
And that is really saying this internal division that we have in our mind
of what is good and what is bad is is a fiction.
Yeah. But that’s a sort of a boundary within the mind. I think that’s really interesting. I was
curious to know how your own boundaries have changed as a result of all the
meditation you’ve done in the past whatever it is while you’ve been globe trotting. Yeah, that’s that’s a really good
question. I want to address this good and bad thing too and on an ultimate level we talk about the prashna parameita. This is next level stuff. You
know this is not your average everyday Joe thing that’s immediately relatable to most people. Although it is on on on
a higher level, ultimate level, but what there is is there’s clear things that are helpful and not helpful. There are
things that are skillful and they’re not skillful. There is wisdom and there is foolishness. So instead of good and bad,
which what’s good for me, somebody might think is absolutely bad or what I think is bad, some people, no, that’s good.
Right? So this notion of good and bad, it it’s not helpful. But there are clear things that can be discerned on a
relative level. you know this is helpful this is hurtful you know these these can
be more clear and this is how I think we need to establish boundaries um so for
me um how my boundaries have changed first I realized I really didn’t have any boundaries when I first you know or
I had uh unhelpful boundaries that weren’t that weren’t helping me then I realized okay well yeah this is this is
going to be helpful for me and I didn’t see it before and so it was like kind of a recognition and then I just Um, I used
it to make choices like, okay, well, um, you know, this is, uh, this is this is
what I want to do and this is where this is going to lead and this other way is going to lead there and I don’t want that anymore. I know where that goes.
But when it talks, um, I I could, it’s a little bit personal here, but I’ll share it. Uh, there was a thing with my mom,
right? And, um, we were just squabbbling back and forth all the time and, um,
finally I had enough, you know, um, and I said, “Okay, I’m going to try something new. I’m going to not talk to
you for an entire week. No communications whatsoever. And um she was so upset, you know, but I kept it
and um really got to go introspective about how I was relating to her and I
saw all the other some of a lot of the things I was doing that I was responsible for that wasn’t helpful for either of us too. So that space and that
distance, you know, was so helpful. And then I think our relationship changed quite a bit after that, you know. Um, a
lot of the old habits and patterns I had fell away. I could see things clearly and relate in a different way. All I
needed is that that that space and that boundary set up for a short time and then we were able to reconnect after
that on help way more helpful level. Of course, it didn’t solve everything and there’s still squabbles, but the amount
of intensity as far as things that weren’t helpful changed. So, that was sometimes those hard fast boundaries are
needed, but it’s not always that simple, you know. um especially when we get into like
intimate relationships, you know, that’s a whole another thing we probably won’t get so much into here today. Um but I
can see how um I’m thinking of a a woman I was chasing at one time and I was
deluding myself. I was overlooking the the the bad qualities because I I I
wanted to go after the good qualities, you know. So is this kind of delusion, self-reinforced delusion. I knew they
were there, but I didn’t I didn’t put any importance on them when in fact I needed to put more importance on those
uh for for for the welfare of both of us really. And so that’s another thing how
we can get love struck or are sick in some ways like that and not oversee things. Um so the actually my boundaries
though um have while they were reinforced for a short time and I needed stronger boundaries, I think overall
they have become more permeable. You know what I mean? And um so more permeable
permeable. Yeah. Um that I don’t need to have as many hardfast boundaries for
protection anymore, you know. Um now sometimes that can not be the greatest
thing because we can stay around certain people that we don’t need to stay around longer because the kind of resiliency is
built up more and so the recovery from either my own actions or someone else
can can then be mended. I think quicker or they don’t hit as hard. Um there’s
more space around it. So um so be mindful of that. But also to counteract
that there is more subtlety. So the amount of subtlety that can be potentially picked up on where was not a
big deal before is now way more noticeable because the the mind and the
heart is now open to more and so it can detect and pick up on subtler and subtler things that wouldn’t have had an
impact before. So it’s like yeah it’s this balancing act of yes some things
were strengthened some things were weakened. Um yeah uh let’s see more
territory was was opened up to so then yeah where do we put the boundaries when
we don’t know where to put the boundaries so yeah it’s um I wish I could have a little bit more concrete
examples here but they have changed and flows yeah yeah so I was just thinking about the
one boundaries with with in relationships and I think about my current relationship and I mean I think
the dharma is Great. But if you only do it theoretical and not experiential, I
think you can really miss miss throw out the baby with the bath water because hard to relate to somebody from a
theoretical level. Sort of does matter when it’s personal. And when we first
met um he was a bit and in fact it’s still you
know for the last until about six months ago or something like that and I finally
said yeah sometimes you speak to me in a really unpleasant way and I sort of had
this inquiry and we we are actually very very fortunate because we wake up have a
cup of tea and then we meditate for half an hour and then we talk about the meditation practice and it really gives
us an opportunity to just incrementally share where we’re up to.
But it also means that when things that that aren’t working in the relationship cuz they sometimes that’s the nature of
being in a relationship you know I did this so that I would be a bit uncomfortable on a regular basis
then it does give an opportunity to air that and speak about the problems
um in that way and so I did I did say ah
you you actually speak a bit unkindly to me sometimes And you know, actually, I’m
pushing back on that now. I don’t want to I don’t want to hear it. Like, we we’re very solid together now, but I I
don’t want to be spoken to in that way. And it’s very interesting how that’s really calmed down. It’s it’s been
really really helpful. And then he talks about at work what he did is he he was
being bullied in his workplace and then his the the structure changed
and the boss who was bullying him moved up and somebody in came then came
beneath and there had been a bit of a change and so my partner was really
confused and going well they’re I’m still being bullied by this guy and so
what he did is he checked in. He said, “Why did you do that?” And the guy said,
“I didn’t.” But because my partner was so used to being he was in a trance
about being bullied, a bit like you being in a trance with that woman you were you were really hot for that he
actually crossed a boundary, but in a way created a boundary. And then it
actually it actually formed some safety in the relationship for him. He said,
“No, I’m going to stand up for this.” And he said, “Well, get over yourself cuz I don’t know what you’re on about.”
So, I think that was very I think it’s that’s a really interesting way of
working in relationships. And it’s it’s not easy, you know, we it’s really hard
and we don’t have good protocols. Th this is really important when it comes to relationships and communications I
feel is having so the the whole reason I think or one of the main reasons for setting these interpersonal boundaries
is so that we can communicate because if we don’t have like clear boundaries set up or let’s just say if we do when we do
have clear boundaries set up then it’s I’m more likely to say things that I normally wouldn’t say in a in a say
things in a helpful way because sometimes the tendency is oh I don’t want to express this because of okay it
will hurt them hurt me, it will make things even worse, right? But if we have
um boundaries in place and both people um recognize and respect and keep those
bound those mutual boundaries then we’re more likely I think to meet each other
face to face more sincerely kindly and with an open heart and able
to facilitate more honest and effective communication that will have a real
lasting um impact. You know what I mean? So like uh it sounds like your partner
um he he was able then to to to actually face and and and and confront not
confront is is too strong a word but uh voice it directly when Yeah. And and a
lot of times that’s all it takes. However, some people like me sometimes are too quick to do that. That actually
need more of a formal space, a formal container, some mutual um uh recognition
of where those are before I do that because I I can come off Yeah. too
harsh, too direct, um too, um lacking of
emotional qualities, you know, um or uh at the at the wrong time, too. So these
these formal containers, these formal mutual recognized boundaries, I think are really helpful when it comes to to
talking with folks and communicating. But it’s interesting. So I think about my own journey in the last you know 25
years whatever 22 years and there is one relationship where
I put up more and more boundaries because the l that the way that other person spoke to me was
um unhelpful. What I realize now is actually that person
um has an identity an idea of themselves as being a good listener. So when I
raised and a good communicator so when I said oh this is a problem in our relationship that person was just took
it on board as being criticism and actually just didn’t know how to took
exception to everything I said. Well, here’s a communication issue between us. And what was so interesting for me in
this journey is having now put up clear boundaries
and put up more and more clear boundaries. I stopped contact with that person.
And I said, “I’m not going to have contact with you. I need to take a break.” And it’s been several years now.
And I must say, my mental health is hundred times better. But if I if I had a choice, would I want
to would I want to not have contact with that person? If I had any choice about
that for my mental health, then I would have I would do everything I could to be
in that relationship. But I don’t have a capacity emotionally to be in that relationship because
that person says things that I find very hurtful.
somebody else might do it and and they go, “Well, that’s not hurtful.” But for me, that’s that’s very hurtful.
And these levels of sensitivity, these levels of who we are are are they’re
super important, too. And yeah, like you were just demonstrating, sometimes the most kind and compassionate thing we can
do is set up those strong boundaries, right? And reinforce them because um it’s better for it sounds like it’s
better for you, which in the long run is going to be better for them, too, you know. Um, you know, but it was interesting. It was when I
sat down and I’m going, “What am I not seeing about this relationship? What am I not seeing about this?” And it
said, “You’re traumatized.” So, I went, “Oh.” And I stopped my meditation. And I
think this is where meditation comes into play and boundaries is that I just went, “Okay.” And then I sent the text.
And normally I try and vet. And something that you can do in terms of boundaries is um email people
when you know they’re not going to reply so they can have time to think. But in this instance that other person would
just let fly and say all sorts of mean things. And
yeah and so that’s why so it’s very it’s very painful actually these relationships. Hey Josh, we’re at time.
We we are at time. Yeah. the um this is again this is this is a challenge for me
too that um I do really well if the boundaries are there and there’s a
formal thing but it can come off too rigid a lot of times too and not as natural but sometimes it’s needed
sometimes it’s not so let’s the discernment what Wendy was talking about she exercised discernment depending on
the situation and yeah this is a fascinating thing and we didn’t really get too much into how the direct
meditation practice helps but But what what what we can say though is it um it
opens up us to notice a lot of these things too and to withdraw and give us
space to to see all these things and to to better deal with them especially internally. Um all right. Well, this is
this has been great and fascinating. I don’t know if we want to pick this up for a part two or we’ll we’ll move on to
even f fertile ground. We’ll see. But I guess until next time, may you all um
have the most beneficial and optimal boundaries for yourself and for others and for all beings everywhere.
Absolutely. 100%. Yes. Well, great. Ideally. All right.
Thanks, Josh. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Thank you, Wendy. Bye.
Integrating Presence 
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