In this twenty-second installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we explore relational practice in its many modes and expressions like how we relate in various societal, cultural, national, institutional, academic and interrelational contexts; and in more formal contemplative containers like insight dialog, and meditation circling.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Relational Practice | June 27/28, 2024 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #22
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
integrating presence and inner skilled now too and I’ve got the lovely Wendy
Nash back with me Wendy what’s going on today well I’m just rearranging my
microphone but that’s what’s going on in this moment I’m here on gubby Gabby
country in Queensland on the outskirts of Australia and the YouTube is just about to start so sorry about that um so
and the YouTube is great so if our listener are watch would like to put in a comment I missed
it last time so I will pay more attention to the chat this time um thanks for doing that too Wendy
because yeah I should probably be looking at that too and I don’t so a lot to keep track of and it’s a it should be
on Instagram too we’re there but uh there we are and so what else um it’s a
sunny day it’s been quite cool here we had a bit of a cold snap it’s winter so for us it’s cold not by not by us
standards I don’t think or you know in the North or where Missouri I think Missouri in the middle of the states
yeah one of the flyover states as they say right Ral Missouri is that a derogatory term it is I think for some
people it is for me it’s just like oh well yeah you got to get to LA and New York as quick as you can right some
people do or whatever but no it’s it’s a beautiful state and um yes we can small
talk about Missouri quite a bit I’m sure but and I hear it speaking the bird in the background what do you can you tell
what kind of bird they go not that one I’m not so familiar with
what that one is my husband’s really good at that um no I I hear a lot of
parrots and mag pies we have very melodic mag pieses I gather your ones aren’t you you yeah Magpie in Denmark
but no Magpie in Missouri so so today we have um in well and we’ve started this I
mean just everything is relational right but um our pra uh our thing here today
is uh relational practice and I have in this 22nd installment of the ongoing live series with Wy Nash inquiring into
meditation practice on and off the cushion we plan to explore relational practice in its many modes and
expressions like how we relate to things while alone in various societal and
inner relational context and in more formal contemplative containers like
Insight dialogue and meditation circling you know yes we can get into all that but what was just
reflecting for a few moments before the show and where was I really pushed uh
relationally uh in my life and uh besides kind of interpersonal relationships you know intimate
relationships which can be really quite challenging and rewarding too besides that I would say this whole thing with
lockdowns you know um and which is real controversial and if we do talk about it
will forgo the word uh the VW uh so we don’t get like locked down or censored
or accidentally say the wrong thing because they they will they have done that before and so um but you know I
think I think that in in the very interesting situation of like school and
like uh High School in particular going through puberty in school and relational times around there but the other thing I
think with with with what Wendy and I can relate to is these Buddhist commun communities you know and just spiritual
communities in general uh especially it’s it’s more of a western based thing
I mean I’m so more Eastern based thing and here we are experienc it mostly in a western context so that’s all this is
ripe territory to explore but I want to throw it back to Wendy because I what do you think here is kind of the most
important arenas for relational practice that that we should put at the top here
you know I think we should maybe address some of the more important ones if we can up front because I mean this could
be a multi-episode show for sure well yeah so
I’m actually I just wrote a talk on love and you know it’s it’s a part of the
four immeasurables or the Brahma baharas whatever you whichever term you like to use in the course that I’m doing it’s
called the wise heart qualities so I think that’s quite a nice way of putting it and of course love is
one of those wise heart qualities and so I was most people talk about it from a
more you know to have love to generate love and maybe the 16 Greek words for
love or romantic love or was I kind of steered clear a little bit of that whole
conversation and I talked about communication and when I I I had some
friends listen to it one friend said well it’s sort of my
ful communication whereas my my sense is that when you
don’t speak with love you can really kill the love
that is in the relationship so to me I guess that is the relational component you know we in
Buddhism you have the absolute um or the what they call the
wisdom end of Buddhism which is all about seeing the full nature of being
the fullness of being a human being in all its flaws and it’s also
about but I think what is hard for us humans because so few people get to that
level of clarity it’s the nub of relationships it’s when this morning my
husband he just said something in a slightly sharp voice and it ricochets in
my body and I yesterday at the gym or the day
before I said something and somebody said something and it again it ricocheted in in in my body
so and and it interferes with our capacity to create this larger expans of
love because they’re like little Cuts or bruises or
thxs in the way that we can share and express love now some people are more
mellow and sort of just go ah you don’t take anything personally whereas I’m somebody who
takes everything personally so sitting with that juxa
position I think is really where the Dharma helps because when you when you
have kind relationships the heart can soften you
sleep well you have healthier relationships you can create good
boundaries you know what you yourself think and feel and want and you know
what you yourself don’t think and want and feel so it becomes a real Moment of
clarity the more you inquire into your own experience in relationship with
others and engage that relational part the more sincere your life the
more whole you feel about everything in your life so I don’t know what do you
think that is is so beautiful and I of course this comes at the top too because
how do we even do anything without communication really you know and uh it
just I just love if I can use that word listening to Wendy because she’s so well
spoken her practice is deep she cares she’s authentic you know and so it’s
it’s just such a joy to and um of benefit to to to listen to you you know
and the communication is really well done and uh beneficial I feel Wendy so
um this notion of communication is one that I took for granted for a long time
time you know I would just use words to do whatever I could to get my way you
know very egotistical and selfish in those ways not being um um sincere and
honest about certain things well in a way you know but really using harsh language and this is what that’s the
other thing I if I if I’m allowed to to compliment Wendy here or to to to respect and honor the way she does it is
just the the beauty of just not using harsh link language you know uh how many
you know in guys in circles too there’s there’s maybe a lot of cursing a lot of harsh words and things a lot of times
and it’s just so pleasant to to hear um Pleasant language I mean you know I go
go ahead I know you want to say something here so jump in I swear like a trooper and I’m often really really
harsh with my language and I read a story actually um somebody had written in one of the Buddhist magazines and she
said she had some workmen over and they were doing some big house renovations
and she just said look guys no swearing in my house no swearing while you’re
here what you do on other sides don’t care here no swearing and they got to the end of the work uh program and he
said the worker he said head boss said wow all the relationships went really
well it was such a smooth project and she put it down to no swear ing so I
think I know I can be quite brutal sometimes it can Hance it can
really cut through and sometimes you know because if you’re
always just sweet and light and sort of I don’t know meele mouthed or something
yeah you don’t necessarily cut through and sometimes you really need to cut through you know um there’s a whole lot
of different things happening in the world today and I was actually reflecting on this I gave a big long
list to the new CEO of bicycle Queensland because I have this transport community group and and I just said to
him I opened it I didn’t know him at all and I knew the advocacy guy and he’s the new first meeting I had and I said can I
just speak plainly and then I he said please do and then I just said well and
then I just swore and I said this is rubbish you got to do that d d d and I had a sheet of 20 odd points or
something like that and he loved it he loved that sincerity because he you know I I’ve heard since
that he’s a real hard head you know and so it’s different people need different types of communication and I think
that’s really important to recognize absolutely and that this is skillful means right so if somebody’s having a
really hard time and they can’t catch a break sometimes they need very comforting words you know other people
are just going to perceive that person as a pushover they’re not going to take them seriously you know um you have to
you have to address someone for where they are and what’s going to be the most skillful means for communicating with
them and sometimes love doesn’t look pretty you know uh with a masculine love it’s tough love sometimes it’s tough
love sometimes brutal honesty is the best method you know um so I I I don’t
want to give the wrong impression that I’m always all only for you know
Pleasant flowerly you know honey uh Speech uh you know it that’s right it
needs to be at the right time in the right skillful means here when we talk about this word of love and I just want
to comment on U Jack cornfield and Tara Brock as much as I found them helpful
and still do you know if I if I’m I don’t know if it’s helpful or not but Jack Jack he just his heart just seems
so huge and it seems to be bleeding non-stop a lot of times you know and he mixes so many things and I I find it
really inspiring and he tells really great stories he can use very real things and humor to get to the point but
I just I just wonder you know um this notion of balancing this with with
wisdom too and I’m not saying he’s a fool or anything you know it’s just um
yeah I just sometimes the heart is too wide open and too bleeding I feel but on
the other hand there’s sometimes when wisdom is just so cold and so sharp that
it it doesn’t really matter you know you can’t take that to the heart because it will just sear it in half you know
freeze it burn it explode it and sometimes that’s not what’s called for either one of the best things I like
about love is it’s a demonstration so in instead of me trying to tell someone
what love is I could demonstrate love I think
demonstration like you know Wendy talks about getting her husband um that first
kaupa in the morning and that’s kind of a British term right yeah a a hot bre a
beverage for the ones we and that’s a demonstration we don’t have to sit there and tell them how much just okay the
proofs and the pudding right the actions speak louder than words sometimes and
yeah and so but this this notion of communication when it comes to relational ships how it it really can’t
be overstated enough how many times do we uh find ourselves in trouble from just miss communicating you know
misunderstanding you know not being willing to to to be open to to talking and communication reconciliation is
another huge thing so I I thrown enough stuff out here I’ll let Wendy um speak to some of this but I think this is Rich
territory so my talk is all about actually the mechanics of communication
how to how to create love so we’re talking about here
this is a Rel meditation and there is somebody who had on their house on their front door and
they said as they step out they open the front door and to step out and it said Dharma
Hall that actually when you go out into the world this is where the Dharma is because it’s with people who aren’t on
the same page and that that’s your I think that’s where people will tell you
what they think if only you’re willing to listen so I think things that create a
lot of love are starting gently a conversation that makes a huge difference saying sorry when you make a
mistake um also saying thank you anytime anybody does anything but I have a
question for you Josh now you Mr Globe Trotter uh have spent time a bit of time
in Denmark a bit of time in the UK and now you’re back in the
US tell me about how the relational what’s it like to bring
relational practice in different cultures different languages and I don’t
think your Danish is is particularly strong yet is it so that’s something I keep reminding you that you must do
because you can’t yeah I I think it’s sort of like a h denying someone’s love I see guys
often do this and I don’t see that so much from the women I think it’s a way of not respecting your partner I’m going
to be really bold by saying I actually don’t think that your language and culture is important enough for me to be
bothered learning I’m not I’m not interested enough it’s so har totally
It’s So tricky because I am practicing every day so I’ve got an app and it’s five words a day and I just bought
another course so there there I haven’t missed a day since I bought the thing hundreds of days now but still it’s it’s
I there’s no excuses but it is a challenging language as they say and it’s further Complicated by everybody
knows English there already you know so everybody you know since the fourth grade pretty much knows English but I
will be forced into it if I want to get a spouse visa I have to pass these tests you know I have to pass language tests
so there is no really um getting out of it so there’s uh but I want to stress
Wendy’s um things here too and couch it in the positive that it is just like it
is a song of love language can be kind of a song of Love listen to the birds that we just talked about you know
before and so there’s there’s something about speaking certain things in a
certain language that um the heart will respond differently now I I know on one
side here we’ve got okay we don’t want to make cultural like appro I don’t know if Appropriations is the right word like
um categorizations you know um because it’s not culturally sensitive you know
it we’re all you know we all have commonality you know we’re if the more we discriminate the the and focus on our
differences the harder is going to be connect and I agree with a lot of that stuff a certain degree however when I’m
trying to get my bearings uh in a in a foreign country it’s just there’s
certain things that are just obvious that that stick out one thing is not like the other it doesn’t necessarily
mean it’s better or worse but it’s discernment how are things different how
are things similar I know it’s kind of a low-level thing but I I have to find uh I have to just use these methods of
discernment and judgment to some degree I feel until I can go beyond them you know and and blend in more and actually
think they can be better for blending in but your question was how has the relational what was the exact because I
I’m setting up for it here all right so it’s true that you know people are
people and there are different C there are culturals and not to stereotype this
sort of cheap cheap shot but I was more interested in actually your own
experience I’m not interested in your ideas of what that is going on for them
sure so I spent time in England and France and in Sweden as well and what I
was really struck by was how in Australia I have this kind of politics
in Sweden I have that kind of politics in France I have that kind of politics
in England I have that kind of politics so I found very interesting about how my personality how my belief system changed
actually so um that was one thing that I thought was really interesting another
thing is you know I I spent a long time in England my parents are well my mother’s English and how and the
different ways and so I would I found it difficult because I’m obviously a native speaker I sound not entirely English but
not not entirely English and so what I found where things like I didn’t
understand some of the cultural norms and they took offense when in Australia
that may or may not be quite so offensive and so I was kind of taken aback and what did that do well I just
ended up withdrawing and withdrawing and withdrawing so that I found myself feeling quite isolated quite lonely and
and I used that as a kind of okay I’m on Retreat what am I doing in the evenings and the weekends just studying the
Dharma going to work that’s my meditation hole and then just study
study study study I remember you mentioning that Wendy and I know there’s a maybe it’s more of a a a feminine
quality and to to hide away sometimes when things get we’re challenging and
it’s from a good place because um you know we want to protect our own heart
and we also don’t want to infringe on other and make things difficult for others so I can see how that is um but
for me it’s complicated because I don’t have a lot of political views but what I can
say is the interrelational um things that happen daytoday uh you know in
certain situations and how I had it let me see if I can generalize and sum a lot of things up to for England it was the
most like America than than say Denmark right so that one I um the the you know
and it’s just I I there’s going to be some stereotypes in here I feel you know
I’m not I’m not so interested in kind of your on what you think of them I’m I’m
sort of really interested what was your internal experience of interacting because Americans my understanding is
Americans are quite outgoing they say you know they may not say what they think but they have a there’s a certain
warmth and protocol particularly in the midwest where I believe it’s very friendly and then England you know
that’s much more reserved and people are held back and so those kind of subtle differences I’m interested in your own
internal experience not so much the judgments of others well sure no and that’s what I mean I I would have
considered your observations right there so that that’s fair game because that’s what I was talking more about yeah and
so I I did do that I was just kind of um brutally open and honest you know I could kind of see what the stereotypes
are of Americans and I I play into some of those those a lot of those apply to me some of them don’t you know plus I
was in a monastic environment so it’s I think it’s mostly completely different than when I went into town and had
interaction in shops and things like that but you know I’m just known for being more outspoken and really verbal
and talking a lot you know when we were doing this this show so that’s kind of how I was pegged by other people pretty
much and to the point where I got comments where well the only time he stops talking is when he’s meditating
you know these typ of thing so you know I just I kind of rolled with it and then at the times I was feeling like you know
maybe there was a little bit of um um you know I I oh I don’t want to be
around him kind of thing you know because in a way it’s it’s really different I think I I ruffled some
feathers because in a monastic environment people have a kind of certain ideal of how things are and how
way people should be and things like that and I I fit into a lot of that in in other ways though I I think I
challenge some people’s preconceived notions of how one can can can move in
certain environments maybe I don’t know this is possible ego but what I think um what I was coming back to again and
again is is is harmony though where what can I do when do I need to dial it back when can I step it up you know what’s
going to be for the the benefit of the Harmony in the community you know some people need to have their feathers
ruffled a little bit I feel there was a senior nun there that I called we Zin SP baring with each other you know we were
we were we were quite um verbally straightforward with each other on points of Dharma and you know
personality and bringing up kind of uncomfortable things to to to challenge
each other I really enjoyed that and then you know um it’s really so so these are the type of
things that that that come around um that I that I noticed and how was I with
that you know I just I Beed with the uncomfortability a lot of times there were times when I draw draw back Drew
back um a lot of times nobody wanted to say anything at all and so then I would
break the eyes with something and then people would come up to me later oh I’m so glad you you opened with that and now there was a conversation among mantics
and things like this so yeah it’s it’s almost like it’s it’s hard for me to sum
up the whole thing and a lot because it’s almost like each individual instance in detail can have its own I
don’t know Micro World or something but Wendy I’m going to ask you the same kind of questions um because you’ve been way
more places than I have you know um what’s what’s to mention about this based on location and and cultural and
culture just before I do I have now discovered there’s chat here on on the message and it just goes someone goes ah
ah ah ah ah was that you me no no anyway somebody VR whatever
that is and then yeah anyway so now I’ve got the the the chat up wait am I saying
ah a lot like uh uh maybe I don’t know if they’re poking fun at that or what
but don’t know whatever um so yeah I guess and so I was
also curious you were in Denmark and so you didn’t speak the language and and
what it’s sort of your your own I guess inner experience of maybe thinking wow
so you can’t really read the signs because they’re in Danish and if you’re
in say for instance you’re a foreigner maybe a Russian who comes to the US kind
of well what is that and you have to read everything or you can see that you might you know
you might not have good English skills I wondered did did your sense of
what it’s like to be a foreigner change how you are in the US and what was it like when you came back and did your
sense of being in the US feel different did you relate to differently having
spent so much time away yeah that’s a really great question so when I got back to Chicago this last time I was it was a
culture shock almost for for a day or two um it was partly in my own doing uh
circumstances I was supposed to meet up with a friend so the hotel I got uh was one that was supposed to be cancelled
but for whatever reasons pouring down rain the bus didn’t show up uh his his
his girlfriend was supposed to pick us up but then got delayed so we called the whole thing off so I ended up having to stay at this really sey Hotel uh but but
when I first landed and got into O’Hare it was like a developing Nation almost compared to Scandinavia you know how
everything is well run well thought out people care about each other not just
making money or getting ahead of people you know there’s a whole thing of societal U cohesion and consensus and
inclusivity in in in Danish culture uh and just things are just yeah just on a
higher Mark in general I think overall you know there’s some things in America you know that that beat it out or
whatever but uh when I get back you know I’m trying to find a SIM card I can’t even for my phone it’s like an
astronomical amount of money so I didn’t do that and just just this just getting around I had to get on the free wifi to
get a and as soon as I went outside the range just a little bit I got cut off so I was here moving back with my phone
trying to get a a ride and I have really no idea where I’m going but you know the
people are kind they’re just not um I shouldn’t say competent or
whatever it was just different you know you had guys in hoodies at the airport you know staring down at their phone in
Chicago and you had to kind of hey hey you know can I talk to you for a second you know uh but
uh it I don’t know how else to to describe it like nobody really had any
idea what was going on uh it seemed that way anyway you know so it was just a
different vibe too you know nobody everybody seemed more downtrodden they
didn’t seem to to care as much um the the capacity for Ability didn’t seem
like it was there as in Denmark and I don’t want to talk down about America because there there’s a lot of great
things too you know the anyway so I don’t want to just give a whole list but right that that that notion of
coming from a different way of life and then coming back to where I was before you know I’m trying to give words to how
it felt but of course it’s just a felt sense of like what is this what’s going
on I mean there’s it’s just like almost a different Universe in certain sense
but in other senses it wasn’t that big a deal that big a difference you know so so let me let me see if I’ve got this
your sort of inner experience is that what you observed is in Denmark there’s
this General sense of things being taken care of that people people in their jobs
are taken care of so then they take care of other people and there is a there is
an individual thing of course but there is also just a general societ soal sense
of cohesion whereas you arrived at Chicago and what you noticed is actually
the infrastructure the larger societal infrastructure is missing and then there’s this implication for the
individual that it’s not quite so easy you have to figure everything out on
your own kind of thing does that sound roughly it it’s beautifully put and I will just say to to complicate it
further being on a plane for a long time you know this is things that we think oh no big deal but it does take a physical
psychological mental spiritual toll doing that you know and uh of course I
got thrown through the the gamut again I totally forgot you can’t bring fruit back I hear it’s really strict on St you
can’t bring anything at all but as long as I had stuff sealed in packages it’s okay but I forgot the fruits that I had
like a banana an apple and orange that’s a no no they pulled me through the USDA thing and I had totally forgot again I
was like in a days or whatever but it was easier this time I knew that you know I wasn’t treated completely like a
criminal this time it was no big deal but yes as far as that that that relational thing it is different I will
say though um in Denmark there’s a thing called um is it Yonder law where there’s
people kind of keep E I don’t know how to explain this right people need to look this up because I’m I’m not
completely well versed on it but it’s almost like there’s um certain cultural
expectations that you just do this and you don’t do that and then people will
socially make sure you do this and you don’t do that you know um by various
means and methods let’s just say that and it’s just kind of like an almost an unspoken law that just understood you
you you behave and act like this you don’t behave and act like that you you do this and not that and then everybody
kind of uses all kinds of different uh Ways and Means to to to
enforce this kind of unspoken law also uh you know people pay a high
amount of taxes so the government kind of acts as that cohesive thing a lot so
um I think that that in a way it’s a maybe a surrogate or go through of how things get done and how things uh
operate you know so that’s a huge thing here in America there’s a lot of tax corruption it just it goes in the
pockets of cronies and people a lot of people are not happy about paying any kind of taxes because it’s not well
spent where I saw it being more spent in people more likely to to to pay into it
and people more likely to benefit from it it seems you know so I could be totally off on this and uh you know it
kind of distances the personal relationship another thing I’ll I’ll say real quick and so this doesn’t turn into
the Josh show here is that me and my fiance spit there was only a few times
when we weren’t together you know so my representation is very limited from
interacting with others you know I think I talked about the Insight time time or the Insight dialogue group I went to
where they initially told me okay this is all going to be in Danish you know but then they they they spoke to English
I was to me anyway and I did my dialogue process in English because they’re so inclusive you know that that they’re
they’re they’re they they included me anyway so uh it’s very
inclusive okay yeah so let’s talk about Insight dialogue so I think I think that’s really good because what what I’m
hearing there is just to tie up the the cultural differences is when people feel
well supported through the systems they themselves can be more to
the care of others so in terms of if I’m looked after if I look after myself then I can look after others and when the
state okay so I have to pay high taxes and you know it is what it is and I don’t want to pay all my taxes and that
doesn’t always suit me but at least I get my medical bills paid for at least I
can go to a psychologist at least I can get university studies all this sort of stuff so there is a sense of something
larger than me it’s not just me having to fend for myself so I was interested about Insight
dialogue so have you done Insight dialogue before we should explain what Insight dialogue is yes yes I I would
just really brief comment on that ideally though I would feel that in an Ideal World and we’re so far from it so
it doesn’t matter we would govern ourselves and we would be in such a good state to to not have other H uh groups
of adults tell us what to do and we would we would be in a very competent State very thriving state that we would
help others when they need help and we wouldn’t need an external group of adults to to extort money from us to
tell us what’s best for us you know it’s really really noticeable in the United States not as noticeable in Denmark but
you know so that’s it is what it is yeah yeah so are you saying that in the US
you have this idea that nobody should be looking out for anybody else we should be able to figure it out or like a
little bit Mighty on that one no no no I said in an ideal in an Ideal World you know there is a lot of you know on the
in the right wi especially in a rural area where I am where it’s leave me to my guns and Jesus kind of thing you know
and everybody else can do what they want so I I get the freedom of that but there there’s no care that’s a cold kind of uh
but to me it would mix the best of both both you know we would be self-responsible enough to to to treat
ourselves with dignity kindness and caring we would we’ be thriving so much in abundance so much that we would
naturally want to help others whenever we can that would where we would get the most satisfaction in our life is what
can we contribute what can we give what can we offer how can we help you know because we’ve got ourselves squared away
now how can we we don’t need to be forced into doing that by you know being threatened at the barrel of a gun to be
put in a cage because you you don’t want to pay a certain amount of money to whoever knows what for whatever or send
people overseas to die for whoever knows whatever reason right but it would be voluntary but we’re so far from that so
of course you know follow the rules and stuff like that but dialogue yes Insight dialogue let’s
go I have done Insight dialogue um with I think it was Bon
um a uh oh the one that’s known for the foremost for the Divine eye in the
Buddhist disciples um oh help me out here um starts with an A either way that
was his monastic name in Sri Lanka and um yeah we we we we we I engaged in that
process and there’s also a technique called meditation circling but I know Wendy has way more background in Insight
dialogue than I and so I will pass it to her to explain what that is I don’t have
that much I have a little bit maybe but I don’t have that much so um I speaking
with Jill Shepard recently who’s a very senior Dharma teacher yes I’ve listened many of her talks I I love Joel so yeah
and so I asked her about what she calls relational Dharma and what she calls
relational meditation and insight dialogue and she says when she use S
when she uses some of the um steps then she calls it
relational meditation when she uses all of the steps then she calls it Insight
dialogue so as to not correct the original meaning and I I’m doing this course with Tara
bra and Jack cornfield and they have kind of corrupted the understanding of insight dialogue so instead of calling
it relational meditation they call it Insight dialogue and I look at it and I’m like no it’s not really that because
you’re missing this this this it doesn’t quite fit the bill so I think it’s really important to be prudent with what
we bring and sort of our sense of yeah nearly is kind of good enough and it’s
in the it’s in the vibe you know and and that’s not it I don’t think that that’s honoring the Integrity of the practice
so my recollection of the six steps for insight dialogue you would perhaps
comprompt me on this one is pause relax
um listen deeply trust
emergence speak the truth I’ve missed one and I don’t know what the sixth one
is but yes I yes I remember all those yes um we I almost had it up and while
Wendy’s looking at that I I want to Echo that point with meditation circling so I
was looking at this before the show and there’s a there’s a registered trademark for that Circle and so that’s I love
Jill’s approach where she can use a lot of it but it’s not the proper thing but
we gota be so go ahead Wendy finish your thought there yeah all right so the last one was speak the truth no you said you
said speak the truth yeah ah okay pause relax open attune to open attune to
emergence listen deeply speak the truth there we are there we go yes yes and so
let’s step through each of those pause so you meet we come online and instead
of us just going I want to talk I want to talk I want to talk like that’s what doing we pause then relax in the body
and then open and then attune to
emergence and then listen deeply and only when you get to the
sixth one does it say speak the truth
so that’s that’s what you’re doing and as I was listening to that as I was
watching those it was just interesting to think you know because I’ve lived in
different cultures and so I’ve used and so you and and some of those are more outgoing and verose and some of them are
more conservative and withheld and I I said my experience of being in England
and this is mine I’m speaking for me I’m not speaking for you Josh in any way my experience is that people in England are
always cautious always wanting to they say the right thing and I think there can be a
challenge there about knowing how to speak truth if you always have to say the right thing and I think that’s what
we touched on before so there there is something so I think that’s great and in
the in the confines of that practice so I know for instance in on Australian
time um on Friday mornings there is an Insight dialogue group that meets
regularly um they meet different times um and I know it’s a sort of a drop in
one and it’s quite nice because everybody knows the practice everybody’s been doing it for a while and you come
together and then you just practice and it’s quite nice because you create space for
things yeah so how was your experience in Denmark and with with Insight
dialogue then I well it actually it was the insight timer Insight time gez all
these Insight things it was just the Insight um oh it ins Insight Meditation
group so it wasn’t actually Insight dialogue we did have a dialogue at the end that was more reminiscent of it but
not in the formal way of that but I wanted you brought up something about England and I I want to Echo Echo that
observation for myself it was almost like um every a lot of times a lot of
the words are very carefully measured you know wanting to be precise not wanting to make mistakes right wanting
to convey it in a certain type of way you know but also at the same time very
humble you know um and uh re kind of reserved too but I think how that’s
balanced out is the amazing British humor I mean I was in stitches so much
that I was double pull over just hysterical at some of the at some of the jokes that that I that I heard and just
every it just it’s just I think that’s kind of like the pressure relief valve
for this uh humbleness competition I think a lot of times I learned a lot from that because I have you know I I
don’t know if I mentioned this before but I did do a quite a profound humility exercise for two
months and I heard this from a teacher I every time I go into a public restroom toilet uh I guess they call it in
England right I if they had soap and water and paper towels I would clean the
toilet seat um you know and then I would uh and then take another one and then
make sure any any kind of soapy water was off of that and then that’s it and if they didn’t have it then I wouldn’t
do that obviously and there was only a couple times where I I ran into a a time
when I um it was a little awkward because somebody was trying to use it but otherwise and I was real lucky didn’t run into really nasty uh
bathrooms like you see in some movies in some places of the states but you talk about humility right uh that so that was
humbling but the Brits uh I think they they take it to the next level in their
humility right it it seems to be like a competition how can I be more humble the
the most humble but without coming off like that because that’s not very humble to do that you know so I I joke a little
bit but uh yeah it is but they have the English language to you know maybe I
haven’t been to France but I hear the the French are very particular about their language and I I I I don’t think it’s
anything like the English but I mean that’s where English originated right or they’re the the bastions of the English
language there and so um anyway I I don’t know where I’m going with this but
I just wanted to to to Echo some of these sentiments um and uh before before
you go on I just want to say Miss has joined us again today and I wanted to apologize to miss Reed because last time
we were on I didn’t didn’t see your text so I’m very sorry I didn’t get a
chance to inter interact with you um last time I wanted to apologize about
that so hopefully this time yeah it’s just interesting about humility because
actually when you live there a long time it’s not as gential or humble as as it
appears so appearance is the key word there yeah exactly so I think it’s a lot
about the appearance and you know I do know some lovely people in England where
it’s not quite so extended but for somebody in Australia who’s it’s a bit I mean I come from where I am it’s really
kind of hard in your face and people just say what they think but and and in
Missouri you know people are very Gentile in some places maybe not so forthright or maybe they are forthright
I don’t know so anyway that’s the thing and it seemed almost like nobody wanted to make a decision either like you
needed to make a committee to to figure out if you wanted to turn the light off at a certain time or not you know it’s
like everything had to go very there’s a lot of formalities you know um I wouldn’t say pretentiousness at all
but way more formal than what I’m used to you know which I I learn a lot from
too because I could I need to I need to it’s a healthy still to have to be to be
more formal in in certain social situations when everybody kind of knows what to expect of each other and for the
social harmony and order you know is helpful but then it can get really stiff and
claustrophobic and um suffocating sometimes and so there’s a big drinking
culture in England too and I wonder if that has kind of anything to do with it there’s not a lot of straightforwardness
I don’t think you know um so there’s a lot of beating around the bush around going in circles a lot of saying one
thing and meaning another you know we there’s a lot of that in society in general but you know uh but I I I do
want to say that I learned a lot about humbleness and you know formality and um
yeah it just impressiveness in language too of course um but uh yeah okay so you
you ask about um so the Insight dialogue that’s what we wna I want to focus on more now because of the meditation thing
so the one thing the uh is an a tune to emergence and that’s that’s that’s a
really cool language there so basically that means pay attention to what’s ever coming up in your experience right would
that be another way to phrase it yeah and just to heads up M Reed has said no
problems at all Wendy because I apologized I do like your website and the name is fabulous and a great site
thank you very much I appreciate you telling me that I
talked to to yeah she commented on that I said that’s one of the best website names I’ve ever heard Wendy
so it’s hard to top it really it’s great yeah um the point so yeah but again
kindly you know this is what we’re talking about yeah I think it can be really difficult to know what you really
think the other thing I wanted to just say about
[Music] um yeah well I guess I won’t say it but
it can be really hard to know what you think if you don’t have the opportunity
to speak in a confused manner sometimes sometimes you have to be really
incohesive and not have an idea what you’re going to say in order to gain
cohesion it’s a really good point you know and I think that stops a lot of people from exploring that you know and
containers like Insight dialogue I think are helpful for that because usually we have fairly deep meditators there that
know the richness and depth of the inner experience and it’s not a lot of times coherent you know a lot of people start
paying attention to their mind and they get frightened to death of what’s going on in there and how chaotic and out of
control and just absolutely terrifying it can be you know uh I I joke a little
bit but you know the nice thing about it is we we don’t have to be in that state you don’t you can stop meditating at any
time right but to to be brave enough to explore these with other people you know
and usually people that have done lot of meditation practice uh they get really um they get re resensitized to a lot of
things you know so it can be really challenging but then with that comes wisdom to know how to deal with
increased sensitivity you know and uh wise action and just the tolerance level
and the openness to receive another and really genuinely be interested in their
experience and how do I meet this other this being in front of me what is this Human Experience how profound it
actually is you know that we take for granted so much you know another thing I think uh might be worth talking about
Wendy is a stu a student teacher relationship you know both of us kind of have maybe like a teaching role now or a
coaching role which I feel kind of uncomfortable a lot of times in which is great practice you know that I the the
one thing I criticize teachers about are people trying to you know suck up to a teacher or say the
right things and try to get their praise and admiration I I found a few times that being done to me and I’m just kind
of almost flabbergast a little bit like okay what do I do with this you know how do I hold this uh how do I be honest and
tell them what they’re doing and call them out but not in a mean way you know and put them down or anything uh and
then also my experience with with teachers you know people that I really admire there are very few people I put
way high up on a pedestal there’s a few of those and I you know but then there’s other people like well maybe I’m a
little bit too far um sometimes maybe I might be a little bit inappropriate you know so um knowing
the discernment to know how to interact with our teachers too um around others solo and in certain contexts so what do
you have to say about the student teacher relationship too um yeah it’s an interesting one it’s an
interesting one I personally haven’t had that problem about people being pantic I
probably haven’t done enough you know inperson teaching I’m going to step up to the
plate and do it next year really just heads up that M Reed has said hey Josh
your site name is just as good as you onp for sure so here you go thank
you um yeah I think I think it is it is
fraught with challenges like any relationship
and whenever anybody is sick of fantic I think it’s always really helpful for me
to think about my family of origin and then I know it brings me right down you know
but I I when when some when I feel sucked into that I I for me I feel it’s
because I’m having a need being addressed which is my own desire to be
liked and loved and wanted and to be seen as popular or whatever and so the
inquire the attune to emergence the listening deeply is there and then then
you can trust to sort of speak speak the truth um yes and it’s it’s all I don’t I
wouldn’t say it’s uh totally psychop fantic it’s just kind of like this in in the western schooling system right you
have the the kind of the the the rebel kids and the bad kids and then you just have the teachers pets right they just
they they just don’t you you know um it’s well I guess they do have something to gain but it it didn’t seem like the
the the feedback that I got W was them wanting to get overly praised or
anything you know or something they could gain from it it was just like okay
here’s my role as a student here’s what a good student does and this is the behavior that a good student does and
you know I I stay in that bound and this is how I do it and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that but it’s um you
know it where do we go beyond that or or you know how how do I hold that you know
what do I do with that it’s a little bit I don’t know it’s it’s these roles you know these these roles we play in life
there’s so many roles you know so here’s my question when you started the dharm
and you started meeting teachers didn’t you want to be like really good and do everything right and get it right and
all that sort of stuff oh I am a star student actually that’s right you know I would love
uh the the class I audit I love uh piping up with my knowledge showing off my knowledge you know getting it into
where there the teachers going I know all I know all these tactics right you know uh bringing up things to fill in
the uh the gaps in a way you know oh what do you think about this how does this fit in you know to to Really build
on what they’re building on and help them build that you know and so yeah I I
it’s weird that I I turn around and criticize this but I’ve done this myself you know I’m I’m really good at doing as
well uh and and shining in in class and being a teacher not necessarily
teacher’s pet but just being the star student you know okay this guy knows the stuff you know I get praise and love
like you’re saying from from uh um achieving academically and but at my own
cost a lot of times because social skills you know um a lot of emotional intelligence a lot of times and it’s
it’s enforced in Western Society you know you you get the good grades you have the intellect and you’ll go far but
it’s it’s not like that in life you know no actually and and the truth is it’s not about it’s not not about the good
grades it’s that it’s about your capacity to understand what relationships are and how they how you
work together so in a workplace it’s not all like that when I
was at University and I started off in one of the big prestigious ones and it was so hard I was against these young
women who who the year before got 99 in their year 12 exam 99.9 in their year 12
exam and I was trying to write that and I’m a boring middle-aged woman and I didn’t do that so well I dropped out of
school and I didn’t I just didn’t have the skills and I didn’t have the confidence and I yeah and so then I
decided I would go to a much lower grade much lower standing University and it
Suited me down to the ground my marks went up I I had a great time and my
friend said that apparently he’s a Medico and he said two years after you
have finished your medical training at University your medical degree nobody
ever looks at where you went to University so I that kept me in good
stead because it made me realize that yep I didn’t go to the top prestigious
thing but can I say I completed a psychology degree yep can I say that I did my honors thesis yep not everybody
does honors here in in Australia so sort of just a select group so yes I can say
that so that makes a difference and of course if I went into the academic world there would be questions but I’m not in
the academic world I’m just here so that’s I think it’s really useful to
think again it’s what we started off what’s judicious in this moment what works for you is it better better to go
to a really super high achieving University and fail or is it better to
go a lower one where it’s just a lot easier and there’s a lot more support and complete at the end of the
day these are these are good these are good points because I wasn’t referencing so much University because I dropped out
of University too you you know I dropped out so the my uh I don’t have that so I
think the the key for me is and what I’m also saying in the last thing I don’t mean to be stupid because in America
there’s a whole culture of being just be stupid pretend you don’t know anything be an idiot and you’ll you’ll you know
you’ll everybody will love you and you’ll get ahead and play the fool and and be dumb you know and that that’s not
what I’m saying either that’s asinine you know don’t associate with fools you know uh so what what I found was find
something you authentically love the material about when I I was just so flab
GED in in uh around uh University people never talked about the subject matter they just talked about the lifestyle and
I I real it finally realized that yeah some people they they they’re doing it for the lifestyle that’s just more just
as important if not more important and yeah I had a hard time then or challenging time A lot of times in the
work world where I it’s no longer about academics you know uh nobody cared about
that there really you know that’s then you’re an egghead and it’s hard to relate to people like that unless you’re
really in a in in a place where that’s really upheld you know workplace relationships are uh challenging too so
yeah I can’t really speak on Academia that wasn’t for me for the for the most
part I I love learning on my own and if I find something I really want to delve into I shine and my heart uh leaps up at
it and I love doing it and so that’s I I think was the key for me just like a lot of things in life you know what where do
we really have our heart sing you know where does our heart leap up you know um
what’s beneficial especially in the long term yeah yep now hey we’re coming up to the
last two minutes we have about a range of relational Dharma
practices and I think workplace relationships is a challenge and there was a young woman at University and she
said oh i’ be so glad to be rid of the stress of University and be able to work and I said oh at work it’s all about the
relationship that’s where the stress sits it’s not doing the job generally doing the job is not that interesting
you know you do the same thing day in and day out it’s generally not that stimulating but the workplace
relationships now that’s really the core of it how well do you do in that and so
I think that’s where practices like Insight dialogue are really helpful and
one of the things that I’ve been looking into much more is how unhumble I am how
I tend to always take the superior position I think Josh you’re a little bit the same and there what I realized
recently is that I struggle to I’m I’m actually it’s a kind of a
social phobia where I’m don’t I’m a little bit afraid of other people and being with them in that space because I
feel out of my depth to be think so it’s easier for me to control the conversation by Rising above and giving
advice than it is to step in and kind of sit open and be exposed to my
vulnerability and my lack of social skills well you know this I this might
be another topic for another show I think conceit you know we can talk about the superiority conceit the inferiority
conceit and the comparison conceit so many of our uh world’s issues uh kind of
boil down to that and we can look at our Rel we didn’t even get into self- relationships the relationships we have
after ourselves uh which I find is is is really important so maybe we’ll do one uh uh one on conceit coming up here so
Wendy I think that’s going to be just about a wrap you know okay well thank you Miss Reed for joining us I do
appreciate you coming online and saying hello and having a little bit of a chat there and I hope you got something out
of it which is you know it’s great to have you on and Josh I hope I hope we we
did something useful here and maybe even just our own exploration what was useful we’ll find
out I I it was for me so that the the jury is already decided on that one for
me it was so all right may you all be well and may all your relationships um
be for your benefit and for the benefit of others you know uh that’s that’s I
guess the goal of them all
Integrating Presence 
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