Last time we talked about wise speech in various modes and contexts but didn’t get around to mentioning much about our always on worldwide internet society. In this twelfth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we return to wise speech this time in light of today’s instantaneously interconnected and increasingly globalist world. We also address frivolous and abusive speech as well as wise speech when it comes to women, men, men and women together, and other gender related stuff including pronouns, confusion and addressing beings from the heart. And how do we practice and work with this in a meditative context?
Join these Q & A’s when they happen live:
- via downloading the free Wisdom app in your app store or via: https://wisdom.audio where I’m @integratingpresence or https://joinwisdom.audio/integratingpresence
- watch on my YouTube channel
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or Wisdom App to type/ask live.*
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Related Integrating Presence post: Gender (Confusion?)
Audio: World Wide Wise Speech Part 2: Gender | August 31, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #12
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
com and today join once again by Wendy Nash Wendy how’s it going today yeah
good greetings from guppy guppy country in uh yeah actually we have a big
referendum coming up in about two months time called The Voice to Parliament so
very topical it’s I won’t go there because um I mean we probably don’t generally do
it but what it is it’s a it’s a very interesting process because it’s about looking at Aboriginal people
uh being advisers to Federal Parliament about issues that are problematic for
them so there’s about three percent of the population and [Music]
um and it’s just been interesting to see both sides of the campaign
uh and it’s just interesting because it’s called The Voice because they feel there is no voice
so uh yeah that I just think that’s quite interesting
you know what it is and lies a lot of lies that have been shared by the no
campaign and miscon you know misrepresentation and and things so it’s
it’s kind of interesting that um that’s um yeah that that’s such a big thing so
that’s today and that’s it that’s her but I’m good
well very cool and it’s just it’s heartening for me that the folks I talk
to in Australia there seems to be a big push towards the giving yeah more oh I
don’t know involvement voice whatever we want to call it recognition to the native uh people there and in the states
it seems like it takes some kind of Crisis like this pipeline crisis that was I don’t even remember when it was
to really bring the the the native folks of America to the Forefront of the
public attention and it stinks that it takes some kind of Crisis for that to happen so today we’re uh doing we’re
picking up a part two of this we’re calling it worldwide wise speech and we
we talked the um you have to check part one out if you’re interested the things that a few
housekeeping ends here forgot to mention um we’re talking about the Buddha’s kind
of guidelines for wise speech I think the one I forgot last time was idle chatter
you know here I thought you know maybe I might mention that I’ve been picking
some you know berries around here and foraging and then I thought well that’s
kind of vital chatter so um maybe we can pick back up on that but we have to well I might as well just
address it now um this is important when we were trying to put people at ease and connect to
people with kind of small talk and I had to learn kind of small talk now I can get out of hand where that’s all people
ever talk about and they feel nervous and they can’t feel okay unless they’re
completely you know talking about whatever insignificant pointless thing so yeah
and then the other part is This Global part before we get into the gender part
of this which was kind of what we titled it we’ll get into that but this Global
part the worldwide wise speech and now it’s something we almost take for granted being online here right that
this gets blasted out potentially all over the world you know all it takes is internet connection and there really is
no separation between for communication these days and what is the impact that
this is having you know how has it radically changed our lives in 20 years to to now where we we just kind of take
it for granted we don’t even think about the the global interconnectivity here I am in Denmark when he’s in Australia and
yeah so I think I’ll throw it over to you to address that Wendy
ding isn’t it so I was actually just speaking with a client before of this and he’s a marketing specialist
and we were just there’s so much hype how do you cut through the noise
in a noisy Society where it’s like you know I I’ve mentioned before I’m part of
Toastmasters and I’m the vice president membership what is that I’m the membership person
there isn’t sort of a president of membership there isn’t a subordinate it’s all about leadership skills but you
don’t have leadership unless you have followers you don’t have followers unless you influence you don’t have
influence unless you welcome so you can be bossy all you like but that’s not
leadership that’s just being bossy so um yeah but but I think in American
culture which is very culturally dominant globally on the internet as well there’s this
real hype and and it’s pretty overwhelming and how to be sincere I
mean that’s that level of hype it’s just not going to cut it here where I live
um people just be like yeah no it’s ridiculous
so so there is so I think there is
something about and you know I’m on LinkedIn and so much
hey I’m really amazing and and I guess that’s Idol chatter actually and
is there I can’t remember if is there one was there’s one about being truthful now where do you draw the line with that
one but I draw the line at I can make you your Millions because I think that is but yes
so really good questions here um yeah this this influencer culture
it’s huge now you know and it won’t fly here in Denmark either from what I understand people are fairly reserved there’s this
thing called the it’s but then there’s the other part where it’s there’s something called a tall poppy syndrome where you know people are afraid to
stick out here almost or I don’t know about afraid but it’s very frowned upon to to to try to shine your light
brighter than anyone else now I I think we we know from the heart if someone is
just naturally shining their light and not giving this enough in inauthentic
effort to try to you know claw their way to the top and do whatever kind of fake
things they can to be seen and heard but then there’s some people that just have this natural light that just comes forth
and it’s almost effortless so yeah it’s again it’s a balance it depends where
it’s imbalanced in the culture and the times I think and what’s the appropriate remedy yeah and then how do we call
people out on such Ridiculousness I mean do we give it any attention do we you know do we say anything how can we be
kind with that and the truth part you’re saying about it’s really interesting right what if somebody actually does
have you know um potentially ethical skills to make a decent amount
of money you know but then then people completely blow it off but then you know
then you have all the charlatans that you know just flood and trash the whole
potentiality of someone that might actually have some legitimacy
yeah so I guess it’s what we’re describing here is sincerity
how sincere are we and and I I had a friend and he he was from
Colorado and then he moved to New York and he did his undergraduate degree in
psychology and one of the students I don’t know whether it was in Colorado or whether it
was in New York but one of the street other students in the class you know
there was a video that that everyone watched and this person was just yeah
talking about whatever from the south and was just talking about yo the this
and that and and she just she was from the south and
she just said oh that’s just how people talk back home and everyone laughed at her
because there was this I think from the north from you know
that Texans are kind of country bumpkins or something
and so yeah that that
it’s a bit like in the olden days you know people used to oh my goodness gracious me you know this kind of
completely appalling racism um that I grew up with you know this is
just absolutely standard in my life so there is
um there there is a lot of nuance about
that where do you go in fact with all all
that stuff yeah it is and you know even within that you have certain races that
are I don’t know like reclaiming the stereotypes right and within their
within the demographic they’ll use these kind of racial slurs like ingest amongst
themselves you know but it’s not appropriate for other ones outside to do that although they will allow some
Outsiders to do the same as well so that makes things even more complicated right and you know it’s it’s really a
challenge I I like to take this stuff kind of on a case-by-case basis but what you hit the nail on here is the
sincerity I feel the authenticity you know how much is it coming from the heart or how much are we behaving like
ourselves usually most all the time and and you know um
yeah and then what do we tell people that have just been taught to be fake their entire lives to the the point
where they might not even know how to be authentic or sincere you know they get rewarded for being fake and a lot of
people I know I’ve mentioned this before say one thing mean another and can act in an entirely different way so it it
really is it’s a long slog um if there’s anything else to pick up
on this and then I don’t know of a decent transition to go into well maybe
it is you know this we’re talking about racial demographics here potentially um but what about this um gender
demographic I mean I’ve shied away from this for so long because
uh it seems to be continually pushed really hard and not
only popular media especially in Academia to the point where I think it’s
it might be a little much I mean even it’s in Buddhist communities too and now there’s a lot of good things around it
and there’s I think a lot of things that have room for improvement especially when we get to the um the the part in
kind of Buddhist teachings where you know the the less identity it’s
seemingly the better are the less clinging to an identity the less identity construction
as far as I I’m getting you know because what we tend to identify with it that
kind of becomes who we are this this being and becoming and then this attachment and clinging to um these
ideas and Notions we have about ourselves and for me I just I wonder if
there’s being put an over emphasis on uh gender issues right now you know I I
just it’s great that people can explore these things and I just think we are so much more than
um gender labels basically you know uh or you know I don’t know I I love to
hear Wendy’s take on this because uh the last thing I’ll say for now is
this notion of gender confusion I like this notion this term gender confusion
because there’s a lot of things going on where people are confused around this topic
um there we are I’ve got it unmuted um so it’s interesting before I do I just want
to say we have four people watching us on YouTube so if anybody if our Watcher
would like to post a comment we will answer your question so you put it in
the chat I don’t know how to do that but I’m hoping that you know how to do that so well I’m glad Wendy’s Fielding these
thank you Wendy for doing that and thanks for all for joining and yeah feel free to comment even chat amongst yourselves if you want and I think
there’s on the wisdom map as well at some
that’s right so if anyone wants to to talk um to just ask a question just tap
it to join in we’ll see what we can do okay so what do I think
so there’s there is that which is I think as long as it’s
inclusive and kind it doesn’t matter
and it’s sincere I think and it’s not always easy to know
and I think you know the Dharma that’s really I don’t even know myself
sometimes when I’m being sincere when I’m being blunt that’s my tendency
is to be blunt so when am I aggressive
so it’s a complicated but I I wanted to raise a um a bit of a sticky sticky
thing actually I was at a dinner party a few years ago and my friend invited somebody else over
so there were uh three couples essentially and she said something like oh yeah you
know well when he said that I just smashed you know I punched him so it was domestic violence
and and my my partner of the time said
yeah it’s not just men who are domestically violent quick as a flash so
um and I think there is some extra lenience
about women expressing themselves in ways
which could be considered abusive now that was domestic violence you know but in the same way you know if a woman
slaps a man across the face I had a colleague and she said oh yeah you know slap him across the face I’m going hey
that’s domestic violence you can’t do that and she’s going oh no it’s not domestic
violence I’m going yeah it is domestic violence
and um and it’s different because I’m a woman so
and and I just thought it was really it was really difficult
these kind of sort of Explorations about
what do you do when somebody is behaving in a verbally
abusive way and pick them up on it so a few years
ago sort of maybe five years ago a bit yeah probably about five years ago
I was at my brother’s house and he he’s got quite a strong energy
and I said I you know you’re quite an angry person and he said
well I get anger angry I’m not I’m not angry and I couldn’t convey this and he spends
a lot of time screaming at his kids and well particularly his son his
daughter not so much and I I wanted to raise with him
you know like you can’t speak to a child like that you can’t speak to anybody
like that and he
yeah and then the next day I did say I think I think you just saw your son he was going on about his son and I said I
think he just wants him to wants you to stop screaming at him
and but it’s difficult how do you raise this kind of nuanced
situation with somebody who is
um close to you actually you know it’s it’s quite complicated and
I I you know I have friends and they are in domestically violent relationships
and I just go your friend you are in a domestically violent relationship you
know because it’s quite on there at the moment and
um two friends of mine are there and I I sort of point out that this is domestic violence
and they skirt the issue because who wants to know that or they don’t want to they don’t want to engage with that or
their their husbands aren’t willing to come come to counseling about it
so I think that that is a very I don’t think I have an answer on that
but I think it’s another complexity about wise speech
whether you speak to somebody who you speak to how you speak to them
do you have a right to speak to them should you stand up
and yeah it’s it’s and and I think and I was thinking about when I was a young woman I just copied what my family said
and I think I was verbally abusive I remember getting to this point when I’d been doing following the Dharma for a
while and I went oh actually when I’m really anxious I’m verbally abusive
and I told that to somebody else in the Dharma community and she said
oh no that’s just saying things because that’s how you need to say it I’m going
no I think it was anxious so I I wanted to to sort of put this complexity in
about wise speech because it’s easy to say Idol chatter that’s an easy one but
what do you do when it’s when it’s it’s a complicated charged
area and you don’t feel comfortable about the Dynamics in a relationship
let’s this is great let’s explore this because this is uh complex terrain you
know um I I’m the same way when I have this notion that I’m in a hurry and I’m
behind time that’s when I can really slip up on how I speak to other people
because then I I met the end of my resources a lot of times unless I catch
myself uh and so then I will tend to behave in ways that I I wouldn’t
normally behave if I’m pressed for time and I want to keep a commitment right sometimes things will slip out the way
I’d rather not the the energy behind the words is two so we talk about this kind
of reversal on abuse you know um it’s a complex thing so if if a female’s
hitting a male in a relationship you know I think one of the Tendencies and this is just a thought that the male
is hesitant to say anything about it or do anything um it’s because then they will be seen
as weak you know uh this old kind of maybe misogynistic culture is you can’t
control your woman she’s hitting you what’s wrong with you uh why can’t you why is she doing that to you you’re
allowing that and of course I just want to say that it’s even weaker if a man would would hit the woman back in return
okay abuse is never okay and that goes for females hitting men too you know
it’s even worse in in my feeling is if the man would then return that physical violence even if it’s just a slap you
know it’s it’s never okay to abuse anyone and so but then it’s like like we’re saying It’s Tricky you know a guy
is kind of self-esteem and maybe worth and value and honor respect if that gets
out they just look like they’re being a doormat or walked all over you know what do you do I don’t have any good answers
for this you know um other men might say well just you know just man up and take it if she’s gonna do that you know I
really do not have any solutions for this but it points out right now
points out good terms too it’s not just physical abuse okay we can probably all agree on that if someone’s intent to
harm well even if you just uh if you inflict um physical aggression upon another
without them asking for it or wanting it or consenting to it and especially when there’s ill will or an intent to harm
that’s a clear and obvious abuse and abusive relationships are never okay do
whatever you can to get out of abusive relationship if it means you know sleeping on Friends couches for a while
or what I know it’s easy for me to say that and I know it’s not an easy situation but there is help out there at
least you pick up and talk to a friend that you can really confide in if you can’t do that perhaps a counselor you
know this isn’t professional advice here that I’m giving they’re just just some
ideas I’m sharing okay so then we have that’s the obvious one verbal abuse is really it can be you know gray areas and
I see the danger of this too getting too extreme where or people are labeling everything as verbal abuse and then some
people are hesitant then to even say anything because they might have this fear about offending another and so
their their voice doesn’t get heard they don’t get they don’t have they don’t get expressed or they they’re constantly
thinking what I say might be taken the wrong way or be too controversial and so
when they can actually speak up and have some um benefit or just an expression
that needs to be seen and heard and met then that gets stifled and suppressed due to this potential culture of I don’t
want to offend anybody you know um so I think that’s a really important
point when it goes to the Other Extreme I mean we’ve had such horrible speech practices for the the longest time about
people just you know blabbing out racial slurs and you know just
um really horrible harmful things really no reason and now sometimes it’s got almost to the Other Extreme where people
are afraid to say you know Express anything now there’s emotional abuse too
um you know um how people will blame other people for the emotions they’re
having and this is another huge gray area you know how responsible am I from my own emotions and how responsible
someone else for my emotions there’s not I you know I think it’s it’s it’s kind
of half and half you know um because we don’t live in a vacuum but then again if someone says something to
me even though they want me to take it in a certain way they can’t control how I take it so that the responsibilities
shared there somewhat from how I receive someone what they say uh and then
there’s even you know I would say maybe psychic abuse you know there’s there’s I
don’t want to go down to Long the laundry list but there’s things like gaslighting you know all these
sophisticated abusive techniques psychological abuse it’s a huge one too
um so yeah I think I think we’ll we’ll leave it at that within the the you know the the the father I would just other
other than to say too it’s important for me to yes don’t yell at your kids if you
can please don’t at the same time I’m sure it’s well it can also be a habit
but it it’s also he’s probably at his wits end he probably doesn’t have the resource it doesn’t make it okay but I
wonder what he’s going through and I wonder if the approach might be to to offer some compassion for him and how do
we do that how do we recognize the pain that he’s in at the same time you know
um not being like or not letting his him talk to and abuse another like that but
in another way not Step On His parenting Journey too so there’s really no good reason I mean there’s really no good
answer or reasons why any of this stuff is going on but it it happens so invite
anyone else with any wisdom here to speak up and again I think it’s on a Case bike case basis it’s interesting
how other people from the outside could come to this and have wildly wildly different views on what’s Happening and
potential responses and advice and suggestions on how to go about this
yeah and it’s interesting how in one environment it can be abusive but then
you you go into the parliament now um I don’t know how it is in Denmark and
I believe the US is very different you have your five minutes of allocation time or something and you read some you
know script or whatever it is that you’ve prepared but I don’t like that in UK or Australian or New Zealand
Parliament you know it’s rough as guts it’s called The Bear Pit in New South Wales you know it’s it’s pretty horrible
and and a couple of years ago people were going so how do I tell my five-year-old
to not scream at each other when I turn on the television and this is the great
illustrious leaders of our land you know so it’s it is context dependent and
that’s the culture in that space and it’s changing as there are more women in that space
um but yeah I think it’s it’s it’s it is complicated so I yeah I I think it’s
um when do you speak up and say something when you not and what are the Dynamics it’s so
unclear sad but true so let’s talk also about gender and
um I I think also that part of my thing about the gender speaking about you know
what gender they the pronoun thing
and I I think I just don’t know anybody
and so I can’t I can’t
connect with that because I grew up with well you’ve got men and women
um and the other day there was an art exhibition or a workshop or something that someone had and it just talked
about they interestingly I I was reading a book by Symphony Selassie I don’t know
if you know her she she’s she she’s a really really
um excellent meditation teacher insight it sounds from the name sounds familiar
yeah yeah and she wrote a book called you belong
or I belong or we all belong you belong and
and she just in that book now it might be a few years ago and she’s changed her perspective but her she put in there a
line which was because of this hyper masculine world we live in where you’ve
got this very very what you know people call toxic masculinity which you know people
don’t um I I’ve I now call it matro masculinity because I find that the word
toxic is not a helpful way um and
um the and and her take on it was that this
pronoun change the sexuality fluidity was somehow a
reaction to this hyper masculinity this Super Macho masculinity
so since you are a man um I I think it would be really
interesting for you to to hear about your ideas about masculinity
as somebody who’s not a macho man yeah but nonetheless is is straight he’s a
you know and um and yeah I just want to hear about how do
you and and one of those things just going back to speech guys have this thing called don’t be that guy
and women don’t have an equivalent which is don’t be that gal and I think it would be fantastic to have don’t be that
gal because women say so many horrible things and do so many horrible things so yeah I’d love to hear what your take on
masculinity as it pertains to wise speech that’s right and since the last
one we did was uh Wendy went in depth about kind of the rooms for improvement
that some of the feminine have amongst each other and yeah I want to address
the pronoun thing here in a little bit but to to jump right into this you know
my fiance is a little bit of a feminist so I’m challenged from time to time with
these and it’s a lot of good ideas and I do feel a lot of this stuff it comes out of this maybe hyper masculine I like the
word Macho masculinity because there’s toxic feminine and femininity too you
know and I just don’t want these I want to explore these issues and not use them as as a reason to divide the genders
further than they already are you know they talk about um yeah because men and women are pretty
I it can be pretty divided too so I don’t want to get into this but it’s
it’s interesting to explore these especially in these um current times we have and Wendy and I
are a little bit maybe old school and we still see the value and benefit in just the obviousness of men and women I mean
it’s just as plain as day to me so we can address the newer ways to look at it but we can look at it like this too now
there was a short time when I was more of um masculine or I would say Macho I
was doing this this exercise thing called CrossFit and it was an extreme
workout I mean it was I was sore all the time there wasn’t much rest that has a
real uh and I was more I don’t know uh I mean not too bulky but I mean my just
stiff all the time and really kind of puffed up uh with more muscle mass and whatnot and there’s nothing wrong in and
of itself this thing has a tendency called rabdo that’s short for some
medical term where I guess the muscles can seize up uh and then never have
functionality of them again I mean it’s an extreme workout that like Marines usually do so it was a little bit much
and I did a 180 turned um into just yoga meditation so but this is the thing it I
look at this stuff now in retrospect and I’m sorry and these um this bro culture
too I just I it’s hilarious uh I have to laugh at it because it’s a lot of it’s so ridiculous
I mean we talk to me it’s it’s kind of a false empowerment or overcompensating just like somebody talked about this
before drives a huge shock you know or has a ton of guns
um you know gets puffed up Acts certain ways you know um they kind of seem like
you know I get it in the sense that this is this what you feel to to you might have
feel felt like you’re not being seen or respected or honored and so this is
making up for it right you have to do these things to feel powerful
um and respected that’s where I think it’s coming from but it’s almost like a
cartoonish version to me to to do that because that’s not where your true power
comes from you know the true power for me A lot of times comes from how much
can I help and contribute you know how much am I going to stand in my honor and integrity even if it’s hardly any you
know even it’s just that intent to do better be a better man um now the the question again
um Wendy remind me on the the question that you had here
um with around this before I do I just want to say we have four people watching us on YouTube and
if one of the the four people or all four of you would three now one’s just
decided to drop off would like to add a comment
um you’ve got a very high chance of getting through and your message being seen actually you’ve got 100 chance if you post a com a comment or a chat then
um yeah we’ll we’ll read aloud and how about their on wisdom map
yeah we’ve got uh two listeners so yeah so mine was how you know okay so you
made that ship from this very hyper Macho space
into the yoga thing yeah I don’t do yeah so what was it a what
was it like to be this big guy how did you speak what how were your
relationships with other men with women and then when you what made you shift to
want to give that up or change things and then move over to this yoga you know person and then what was that like and
how did that shift in the way that you spoke to your to yourself others your
friends your male friends your family what yes I’d love to hear that well I don’t
want to I don’t think I’m gonna say too much but because it was an extreme time in my life like I had uh I was at my
wit’s end then and I think this was a last-ditch effort of kind of a protection and empowerment so once that
all broke down and fell away there was kind of a a dark
um transition period and then as I started to to come out of that then I I
turned towards more Inward and got into meditation and then the yoga was just to support that as well so it was it was a
time of being lost in my life basically and you know not really having much
Direction at all and kind of a Dark Night of the Soul too after I I came out
of that but it was all for the better you know I had that experience and then I was able to
yeah yeah um see that kind of for what it was for me anyway um now I want to go back to
you sorry I want to cut you I want to cut you off because I I was asking kind of we’re talking about why speech and I
was wondering how when you embodied this very Macho space um
what what what were your conversational like how did so so at that level I was
really interested in how did that change when you became more yoga oh sure yeah so it was I was not happy with myself in
retrospect you know for one thing I was doing this exercise at a gym where it
was not there was no one else doing it so just on the very face of it there I
was stuck out with a sore thumb people were looking at me why are you doing this I was running from one room to
another in order to like I would have to do sprints on the treadmill then I would have to go run back in the other room
and like do pull-ups and so uh in a certain amount of time as many as I could do so you’re not supposed to run
across the gym you’re not supposed to do this extreme things people are in there you know just going at their own pace
and things like this this was full out uh um as much as you could as fast as
you could and they have special gems for this apparently and that’s where I should have been doing that so my was a
basic disregard for everyone in there and was horrible um you know and I really even though I
knew that then I didn’t care and I pushed through with it anyway so that’s the kind of headspace that I was in it
was really pretty reprehensible and not considered to anyone so I don’t think
that I could um now I don’t I don’t wanna that was uh I think an anomaly I don’t want to say that the Macho culture
acts like that really anyway maybe a little bit of that you know but uh that was my taste of that you know
um at least in this the Mantra culture they have like a support and a kind of a culture and B is how ridiculous it is
there’s some you know maybe decent things to to to to to you know some
redeemable qualities perhaps you know um so I was kind of an outlier in this and I don’t know it it applied and it didn’t
apply at the same time and and how did you find that so you you would be
walking down this Street in you would be have cashiers talk to you and you would
have just you know you go to the doctor or just you would have strangers you probably had colleagues at the time
in that way did your physicality can’t change the way that people unders
saw you and then spoke to you I think so because there was this intensity about
it right I mean I have a fairly I’ve been known to have a fairly intensive personality to begin with and so when
the the physicality backs it up people can get really intimidated just in one’s
presence you know uh like that uh and I was fairly you talk about the belonging
thing and that’s a really important uh now and I feel and I didn’t feel like I
belonged you know I look at these pictures as the best man in my brother’s wedding and I just kind of stuck out
like a sore thumb you know uh and I I really couldn’t connect and there was
not much of a sense of belonging to you know um before that I was in a company
culture and there was this sense of belonging there and once I was out of that then I was just kind of like a lone
wolf for a while until I kind of really felt where I could you know I was so
disconnected for myself that’s the other thing not the external I think a lot of this has to do with becoming
disconnected from who we really are and I think once that’s re-established then we can connect with just about anyone on
any situation you know even if it’s just for 10 minutes with someone I think that
was the hugest turning point is when I really kind of Stripped Away all the EX
exterraneous extemporaneous all the the stuff that wasn’t necessary that was
clouding uh closer to the true nature of who I am who we are and once that’s
reconnected and established with then it’s then we can see commonalities or a way to connect with just about anyone
you know even if it’s just from a deep sense of compassion of um how I don’t know how to interact with
someone or how much pain they’re in and this sense of belonging I feel is really
important and it’s been stressed a lot recently and I still think it’s very very well to to be stressed and I really
think that it’s an internal it’s an inside job for the most part maybe that part doesn’t get as much uh attention
because where do we belong in our own heart you know that’s that’s that’s big
now um then we need to say something and then I think this pronoun thing definitely deserves some mic time
because yeah um but please yeah I thought it was very
interesting what you had to say that actually it was when you felt really just somehow the building up of the body
of chicken and egg helped you feel disconnected from yourself and then you felt disconnected from yourself and
presumably that’s what made you build up your body I don’t know well you know I don’t know I don’t know how that was but
I can see where it can be the opposite too I see a lot of men could actually get in touch with their body through
building I just did it in an extreme way that wasn’t that that intent wasn’t
behind it now I think there can be a lot of types of physical exercise that can help men and women become more embodied
right bring more awareness to the body I was not doing it for that purpose I didn’t know what I was doing I it was
just more like in an extreme State and I was acting out extremely you know physically
so now so let’s jump into the the the
pronouns this has got to the point where there’s even a preference in Zoom now about your pronoun
um when we go to fill out forms now there’s a male female and sometimes
another or sometimes there’s a long list of things right now this is unheard of and and I think where this came from uh
is actually came from a decent place from people that were sincere about this meaning that you know
um to be more inclusive I think that’s the the good part of this where it came from uh however I feel it’s also
possibly been either hijacked or there’s been other intent behind this besides
just the wholesome skillful intent of inclusiveness right so for one thing
um so we kind of agree on that but I will just go into maybe um some questions here about this this
practice and it’s almost like
um at a one point I don’t think it’s is is as much as this now but you’re kind
of expected to give your personal pronoun preference and expected to
um to really find out about someone else’s pronoun and not use uh not use
the traditional method and this is in some groups of saying just he and she right you could you couldn’t do you you
had to find out ahead um you weren’t almost it was in some
circles it was not culturally acceptable until you found out their personal Prof pronoun preference to address them any
other way other than their name I think you know uh and I don’t know the
protocol around this to me it seems what what I have to laugh a little bit because
um to me what this gets at is this is um kind of a self trying to control language trying to control what other
people say now I I get it if someone is it has malicious intent to harm someone
by their language and to to to make fun of them using language you know and
deliberately use something that they know they shouldn’t use in language to offend someone to harm someone that’s
different that’s not what I’m talking about what I’m talking about here is this
um uh like like a self-censorship and certain
groups who came up with this trying to control the language trying to tell people what they can and cannot say
cannot can and cannot refer to someone as and then these requirements of having
to fill out um you know to to to go through all this and to to
um voice the these theories you know in the academic space that I get it if it’s
an elective or someone wants to study it great explore it all we want but when it becomes
um imposed or required on another and then people get reprimanded uh for not
following this kind of contrive guideline then I don’t know the helpfulness of this you know what I
think it really comes down to if I’m one-on-one with someone and I’m being disrespectful dishonoring and I don’t
care about what someone um uh um you know feels or thinks or
anything think and make a total disregard that’s when it’s an issue and that’s where I think these things can be
helpful but if if someone is really sincere open caring and loving and
respectful then then we’ll know that what we’ll feel that in our heart hopefully unless we’ve become so
disconnected that we can’t tell whether someone is you know and then then we’ve got the other people who you know will
have this fake niceness about them where it’s actually kind of a harmful intent
you know just at this you know I want to be you know and then they kind of just use this as a um
what is it like sarcasm almost you know this this false niceness that’s actually
they mean the exact opposite you know that their their intent is just to be
really shitty to someone by being fakely nice you know and I don’t find that helpful at all
however it’s totally okay to be uh genuinely nice there’s just gently nice
people that are kind underneath the kind is the rule and niceness is just icing
on the cake it’s great it feels good but when you get this this you know what it’s like this fake niceness it’s it’s
crap I I’m reminded of listening to the radio and and I could just hear this radio
announcer he was completely appalling and he just said oh and so when does he come out of jail and it was just had
this malicious I’m absolutely laughing at you you don’t realize that
and I’m gonna take you for a ride let’s just go with this conversation so yeah I
was as you were speaking I was thinking about race you know because when I lived
in England I have I have two passports I have a UK passport and an or a British passport and an Australian passport
and it happened to be the census that year and I had to it said are you white
um white British White Irish White
European white other and I honestly couldn’t answer the
question because I was going well do you want is it the right hand the left hand and
um yeah I’ve Just Seen we have a message do you remember last time Alicia okay he
was with us so all right here’s our little message from Ali so thank you very much Ali it’s lovely to have you is
the issue that you don’t understand individuals that don’t use typical pronouns or that you don’t understand
when people impose rules onto an other people so let’s answer Ali’s question well that
that’s a really good point I don’t know if I uh I don’t know if I don’t understand it I understand it in the way
that I they understand it so it’s the Ali’s getting at the fact now so what do
you make of that Wendy and then by the way the the the other gal who joined us last time was one of my fiance’s
um uh uh yeah the new my fiance so yeah
thoughts aren’t the names sound familiar but yeah okay so M Reed it was yeah ah
yes that’s who it was yes um so is the issue that you don’t understand individuals that you don’t
use typical pronouns or that you don’t understand when people impose rules onto
so the way that I read that hi M Reed no
questions yeah nice to have you back
nice to have it here I read that is the issue that I don’t understand individual
understand individuals that don’t use typical pronouns so am I vaguely offended by the fact that they can’t go
sticking to one of the two or that I don’t understand when people impose
rules onto that so or that they somebody says are they and
um put that require me to say to use that pronoun yeah
so I’m gonna say I I think that I don’t understand individuals
that don’t use typical pronouns I I’m gonna put it out there that I I’m a little bit confronted
you know I’m I’m born in 1960s so it’s a long time ago and and I I I don’t
understand because I don’t know anyone with that and and I do feel a bit well
how come why are you imposing your values of gender
fluidity or whatever it is and I don’t mean to be that offensive but but but I
can’t remember which what the term is whether it’s gender fluid but um or non-binary or something and I I I
do find it slightly can’t you just be like everybody else and play by the same rules and then I know where I am and I I
think that I yeah so Ali so Ali says I can help so what would you like to say
with Ali that you that will help yes and in the meantime why the typing I I
totally get it Wendy I’m the same way um the the and see this is where it’s almost like
an incitement to divide people again right okay well they don’t respect and won’t use the way that I don’t have
anything to do with them and those that’s that type of person and I don’t want to be that type of person I want to talk to I want to on an
individual level and what I’m saying is that actually one thing for me it can help me be more mindful in speech how
many times am I just on autopilot gonna say he or she so then I can catch myself and say oh you know and notice that
however what I really feel if I’m talking to this individual that really
wants to be referred to as they and I happen to not say that and I say a he or
she that if they’re sensing in to if I’m being malicious or not that I’m being
disregarding of their sensitivities and or I’m not being respectful to who they
are right they’re not being seen by me okay if they pick all that up it’s different but if I’m just using a
Convention of language and uh they have to do it because it’s um oh you have to
hard fast rule by the letter then then I I then I see that as a
potential um challenge in communication because they’re not tuning in to the way I am
um addressing them right it’s only by the rule book and you know it has to be
this way or nothing else and to me that’s a dictatorship that’s that’s um
that’s an authoritarian a Viewpoint that there’s no you have to do it this way or
else that’s it there’s no other other option to me that’s a dictator and that’s I think I think you know the only
I think ever the only dictator should be is the one that where I am the dictator
so I by Royal Decree say that so here’s Ali has said if not man then woman if
not woman then man what about when you are neither well I mean you have intersex I guess I
always conflate gender with sex or something and okay so what a if not man
then woman if not woman then man what about when you’re neither and at times both and with others one and another
person another how would you like label this person yeah well
I I don’t know how would you be a gender how would your
gender change according to whether you were
who you were talking to I guess well keep going yeah no I think I’m just I
don’t I think I don’t think I understand a being so Emery has said a being
yeah yeah so yeah these are really good points you know it’s a case-by-case
basis and now we’re talking really about a theoretical thing because these are really these are fairly rare instances
even today I know the transgender population from what I understand is a very very very very small percentage you
know and the amount of media attention it gets compared to how many actual Trends um gender folks there are is way
over balanced and I’m not saying it shouldn’t be that way I’m just saying that it is blown way out of proportion the media compared to what it actually
is so we’re talking about really rare instances I feel you know even though it’s becoming more common and in those
situations I would look at their intent you know and this is why I said that the word gender confusion is really helpful
for me because it is confusing you know a lot of times the folks if and now I’m
not going to speak for them but what I what I pick up is that you know it’s they are exploring uh their gender and
sexuality they don’t don’t know either and so from one day they might be one gender another day they might be another
and so this is confusing not only for them but for other people and I use a little bit of exaggeration maybe it’s
not quite that extreme obviously right but a lot of times they don’t know we don’t know
um they might present to be one way but then want them to do another there’s this this this comedy uh that’s uh
called ghost go super ego where the the the the folks there they do these sketch
comedies and um they have these characters and it’s a man pretending to be a woman that’s
getting mistaken for a man and it’s it’s pretty funny I’m a woman you know in the
it so it’s just it’s it’s there you know it’s it’s really tough because
I think it’s on a case-by-case basis too it all depends how someone presents themselves as well right if an
individual is wanting to be um is presenting themselves as a certain gender and then we have the other one
that’s just obvious you know um there’s a physical sex organ okay and yeah there are really rare instances
where people have both physical sex organs and then I would say that one’s easy whoever whichever trade is most
dominant however they present themselves as well so um there’s also in in kind of more
metaphysical circles there’s something called a law of gender I don’t want to go into that now because I don’t have that and even in avidhama teachings
there’s a gender how with some is it some of the uh chatasikas I don’t know all the things
but uh there’s there’s there’s a yeah there’s these these type of things so
but when this comes to speech yeah we’re talking about this in speech and then also if before we wrap up here too
um how might we practice with wise speech informal meditation practice in silence you know I think one of the
things is uh is how we speak to ourselves internally our internal dialogue our our internal speech right
so Ali has said well we so I presume that is Ali
um would so well we would say that it depends on the inner and not about what
is being presented um well then again that has to be expressed
right because I don’t know the rich depth complexity of someone’s inner World they have to communicate it
somehow for me to be able to pick up because I’m not fully telepathic yet but yes I I agree that a lot of times
people’s inner world is being overlooked in their intent yeah and and so he continues and second as younger us
younger people can kind of sense these things so it isn’t as complex
so maybe it’s one of those things that because I have all these Decades of
history of seeing the world in one way sure I come with the coming consequences
of that baggage that somebody who is younger doesn’t have so much baggage and
so doesn’t it actually is more beginner’s mind about it
I totally agree and again this comes down to the intent and kindness kindness overrides this all so if I go to a
situation like this with kindness and openness and then we can we work out the communication style and you know there’s
uh there’s not a disrespect there’s a willingness to be open like Wendy and I are and seek to understand and be that
way and at the same time not holding back on our authenticity of this is just
how I come to it this is how I come to it this is my preference you know I don’t need to cling to a preference however that’s just the way it is you
know we all have preferences it’s just how much we’re clinging to them and what’s helpful too you know how how
helpful is it to cling on to identities when we don’t need to I think it’s very helpful to pick them up to look at them
and use them in certain situations where there might be benefit for a long-term happiness and well-being in that of
others and other times they’re not they’re not helpful in that way so we’re wrapping up we’ve got one
minute left but em read last time was on the treadmill I recall so I hope the
treadmill is going well for you and that you are doing what you do if that’s the
case yes continue treading well on the treadmill yeah and thank you Ali for
your engagement as well and Yeah the more
uh it was good to chat it’s good to have you online it’s good to so what what when are we online again did we decide
that yeah we did and uh it’s it’s towards the end of next month now
um we’ll jump a little bit ahead here October November be in the UK and there’s just too much of a Time divide
with a schedule living in a monastery compared to Australia so it doesn’t look
like we’ll be picking up till the end of November again unless we might have some exception we might catch windy out of
the blue and we can hop on without much announcement but for now the next one will be we have it scheduled anyway the
plan is September 28th and at the same time so that’s 8 A.M Central European
Time and what time is it there again Wendy it’s the start time so it’s it’s four o’clock so M raid says she’s she’s
doing good on the treadmill oh good and and I’ll make sure I come in at the start next time and Ali says I think
your conclusions will be the future conclusions of some people as they’ve been mine for a while oh beautiful
thanks for yes so final parting words Josh as we wrap
up ah gender well you know um explore this openly and at the same time
I feel uh know when it’s being overwrought overdone especially in
popular media and know you’re more than gender ideas or what’s between your legs
too right yeah and kind of a crude way of putting things but yeah I mean it’s interesting
I met somebody on the train I was just thinking I met somebody on the train once and I said what’s so good about
getting older is that my body is no longer public property and he was a young guy he was a guy in not young in
40 or something like that and I it had never occurred to him that a woman’s body is actually public property it was
kind of quite shocked by that but it is true you know we’re kind of seen in this
way so we can pick that up um we can pick it up another time we’ll we don’t know what yet what our
conversation is but we look forward to M Reed and Ali Saleh thank you very much for joining us and
um and amreed is also Ali has given you a message and he says I would consider
them a being a person too at M Reed so
let’s wrap it up there very good all right may you all be well and may all beings everywhere realize
Awakening and be free all a piece of Love yeah why not
Integrating Presence 
44 thoughts on “World Wide Wise Speech Part 2: Gender | August 31, 2023 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #12”