Before recording this third installment of this ongoing live series inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion Wendy said, and I agreed, unless there are live questions we perhaps ought to chat about “how to practice with ambiguity, uncomfortable truths, people we love but don’t like their ways or words, navigating guilt, shame, humiliation, privilege. . . The problem of wanting to be good, right, ethical, when these are all one side of the coin, how to include the crappy stuff without avoiding it or being overwhelmed. How to rise to the challenge rather than rise above it to avoid the challenge.”
I replied, “the only thing amongst what you’ve mentioned I see and feel has been mostly hijacked for political purposes on both sides is “privilege” so while I can still obviously address, this comes as low preference. All the others are all engines go with preferences weighted to meditative contexts.”
We talk about some of what Wendy laid out prior along with live questions about the two truths teaching and if playing saxophone can be meditation. Amongst many angles of approaching our primary topics of (real life) ambiguity and uncomfortable truths, we also touch on flow state(s) as well as the importance of delivery, tone and body language when communicating.
*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing up on Insight Timer live or Wisdom App to type/ask live.*
Join these Q & A’s when they happen live:
- via downloading the free Wisdom app in your app store or via: https://wisdom.audio where I’m @integratingpresence
- watch on my YouTube channel
Background
Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.
For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.
Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”
Past chats with Wendy:
Audio: Ambiguity & Uncomfortable Truths | 11/30/2022 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #03
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
We didn’t get to gratitude but here’s some links to the science behind its benefits (via the show above https://www.corbettreport.com/solutionswatch-givingthanks/):
Gratitude is positively related to increased subjective well-being
Robert Emmons: Benefits of Gratitude
Thanks! How the new science of gratitude can make you happier by Robert Emmons
2015 study: benefits of gratitude for heart failure patients
2016 study: relationship between gratitude intervention and reduced blood pressure
2017 study: relationship between gratitude and hemoglobin A1c
Is Gratitude Good for Your Health?
Stuff To Blow Your Mind podcast – From the Vault: Thankful: The Science of Gratitude
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
vegetable from integratingpresence.com and today I have Wendy Nash with me
again for our third installment to the meditation q a Wendy how are you
I’m good I’m good I’m good thank you very much well welcome to all those on uh wisdom
app and uh insight timer which you’re not good to get to see Wendy’s lovely
face you’ll have to just uh bear with mine I’m noticing that this is so superficial but I guess because I broke
my nose one of the nostrils is larger and I have this block so maybe the one
of the nostrils got bigger so I can breathe better out of that I know it’s uh this thing’s when you’re on camera right um and then we’re also on we’re
doing restream.io inches so it should be on YouTube so you’re welcome to chime in on
any of those platforms with questions and since we didn’t get any questions again Wendy I’m I’ll um Jump Right In
Here waste no time to what Wendy wrote me uh previously so if we’re doing a
Thanksgiving edition of this I guess when Wendy says that we’ll aim to chat
about quote how to practice with ambiguity uncomfortable truths
people we love but don’t like their ways or words navigating guilt shame humiliation
privilege dot dot dot the problem of wanting to be good right ethical when
when these are all one side of the coin how to include the crappy stuff without
avoiding it or being overwhelmed how to rise to the challenge rather than rise
above it to avoid the challenge and oh this is so good this is so juicy
there’s just so much stuff packed in there that we can we can unpack and unfold and I replied real briefly the
only thing amongst what you’ve mentioned I see and feel has been mostly hijacked for political purposes on both sides is
quote-unquote privilege so while I can obviously address this it comes at a low
preference all the others are all engines go with preferences weighted towards meditative context so a lot of
wordiness there for me right um but the the main thing is let’s just jump into this and so do they even
celebrate Australia and so celebrate Thanksgiving in Australia I wouldn’t think so right
no so I just before I start I forgot to do it last time but I always like to acknowledge that I’m um so I’m in
Queensland in Australia just um for our listener and what you know viewer and I just
um I’m Gonna Cancel uh in Australia and for 800 Aboriginal
countries in this huge country called the new world like the US and it turns out that people have been
living here for 70 000 years so that’s a lot of observation learning integration
that I really like to include because one of the things that from original sort of ways of looking at the world is
that it’s all about how do you relate to yourself and the people you’re with and
the environment around you how do you include stuff from the past what do you want to bring with you what do you want
to leave behind what you know I’m thinking long down the future so I I think it’s really important to
include that people have been caring for this country and really take on board
some of the good stuff that has come out of that the ways of being and living and
thinking about how to be harmonious in an environment now that doesn’t mean to
say that it has always been good there’s lots of stuff about payback which is
Revenge um there’s lots of stuff you know it certainly wasn’t all piece of Love by
any stretch but I think it’s really nice to think about how do we relate to people and how do we relate to ourselves
how do we relate to our environment um and that we don’t we didn’t just kind
of arrive here in this nanosecond you and me Josh apart from anything is the third time we’ve met but also just
um we come with stuff you know we come from families we come from communities and it’s just not always easy to hear
our own voice understand where we are so that’s I really like to include that and
uh yes just to say thanks to the people who’ve been caring to this
now you asked since Rush at the beginning do we do we know we don’t that’s an American thing
um I believe in Canada they have that but it’s a different date uh that’s all I know about Thanksgiving and it’s got
something to do with turkeys and um kind of um you know a lot of colonial
conflict about was it given was it taken all sorts of things like that so that I
don’t I don’t know so much about that complex complex you know it is uh
something else and to leave a lot of the Potter clashes with a side which I’ll
gladly do you know um uh uh that this is these are important points and I forgot
I’ve got my um my Native American art that I met the artist who drew it and I was going to
show that on camera I was really tempted to run away and show it real quick but it shows all the different peoples in
the area that they’re in and this came to mind earlier when I know Wendy likes to mention this but there is no
Sovereign land for the the Native Americans or the certain tribes some
like the word tribes still that I’ve um talked to but there’s none in Missouri the state that I’m in which is really
interesting I won’t go into speculation and I don’t even know the history of why that is I know there’s the Trail of
Tears that was here for um there’s a state park where that started um and no
need to go much into that but yeah let’s um let’s jump into this just I guess
um Point by Point here how to practice with ambiguity now for those not in the
states um Thanksgiving I spent it with my family and uh what is the old ramdas
saying that if you think you’ve had any kind of spiritual Progressive time with your family right
I don’t forget how long it is but practice with ambiguity now this for me
during Thanksgiving anyway is uh pretty much non-existent people uh in my family
are pretty much straightforward almost to the point of
um sometimes I wish there was ambiguity now the straightforward is a really good quality to have but
um but it depends how you do it and sometimes ambiguity can be fascinating for some of the subtleties that it
brings in life right and a lot of times I love engaging in subtleties but over
this you know there’s some times when they’re just not in these subtleties it’s just kind of blunt so uh which is
okay too it’s a different type of interacting but so when when I am in conversations with that are kind of
ambiguous it keeps me in my toes because maybe I’m constantly reading into things
that aren’t there or maybe I might be missing certain cues about what’s there
you know trying to find out well is someone being vague and ambiguous for
for a certain reason or they they just don’t see the importance of the details
here and sometimes I get too lost in details and I don’t see the overall picture too so Wendy how do you deal
with ambiguity um and then also we’re going to try to tie this into a meditative context too
which is going to be kind of fascinating I feel yeah let’s go with the meditation
approach because that’s what we’re here for so I think
um it arose because I’ve been really thinking about um people in my family who I love
but and they’re I don’t know if you’ve had this
experience where talking with people and just um one person in my family says I’m a
good communicator but then she churns through relationships because she also knows
that she says a lot of crappy things and I’m going well and then she says
sometimes quite hurtful things to me so if I say well actually that was hurtful
then I get this eye roll but yet you know this is somebody I love
and is often lovely and then is often really unpleasant actually
so I think from a meditation perspective that that’s kind of like how to how how
to be with with people who we have these unclear
relationships with and you know and so that’s
it is and it’s as much as as much I want to come come forward and
be myself and that is what is desired you know that that particular person
wants me to be very loving and warm but I feel like I have to hold back
and so there’s a because I’m so nervous about kind of what is likely to come out
of her mouth you know and it can flip at any moment so
it’s very complicated so how to deal with somebody who
is unpredictable lovely that they they see themselves in in one
way and then I have to respond with and then they behave in a different way
and then I how do I respond to that and I think really
keeping keeping family occasions like dropping was it I think it was premature
or it was um said you know just go for half an hour
like create it so that it’s just half an hour
um and that can and so that when it’s longer it’s a little bit more
appreciated I mean you cop Flack for that but it is how do we deal with all
this stuff where it’s actually families are great to work
with but it’s not easy you know I don’t know if you you sounded like you had a bit of
a time where people said things um that was actually
um so I used to be very brutal and honest and it still happens you know and
um and that’s that’s with kindness you know there isn’t always kindness in families there’s a lot of assumed
uh it what I’m always really amazed at is
um people say oh I never speak to other people in the way that I speak to my
myself and the way that they speak to their children are like actually you do speak
to other people the way that you speak to yourself it’s pretty unkind there and I don’t really understand why people
speak unkindly to their children actually and I see it in in my family
members I don’t have children personally so maybe I’m super naive about it but um
I certainly am aware of um yeah that oh we’ve got a question way
tea lady uh net came back by the way so that was that and we have Lawrence what
are her views as possibly seeing playing as a saxophone as a form of meditation
so should we go with that one so I’ve kind of opened it up I put uh Wendy’s
comment in in the chat and I’m going to add it too and and I know Lawrence is a buddy of mine so he’s um uh um he’s he’s
um Lawrence is I won’t say anything about Lawrence he’s an acquaintance so we can
um actually let’s do that and I can well hang on let me just throw some stuff out there to um to address what you said so
and then we’ll get right to Lawrence’s comment um so this thing it’s about perception and
then I’ll drop what Wendy said in the chat there’s a lot of perception involved in this right and
I would say in my case it’s more about actually I was doing the harsh things
too unfortunately you know I um you know it’s uh I don’t know how much I want to
go into this but it was it was fairly brief um but the question I want to ask Wendy with around this is
did she uh did she say or did you say um what was your comment did you bring
her into it you said um that made me feel like this is that what you said
um or how did you how did you express your feelings because what what I’ve
found that in it’s challenging to do is instead of having saying the other
person made me feel this way or when you when you say that it makes me feel this way so instead of using them as a cause
for it happening um it may or may not be true kind of
phrasing it in the fact that oh when you uh when this was said
um then I felt or no um and our how can I put this I feel like this now
so how can we say it and convey it that it you know it might there might contribute to the cause of it but they
might not it may it may have just triggered something in me from the past right that came up like this the other
huge Point here that I found from one of my teachers that’s explained so much in
life in a way but it doesn’t answer it is why do people say one thing
so many people say one thing mean another thing and yet act in an entirely
different way altogether you know it just boggles the mind how often that isn’t okay so I think that’s enough to
chew on there for a second okay
yeah and and there is a way of phrasing it but there but I think it’s also important to recognize that
one of the things that can happen in a in the Dharma world is to keep kind of
going back and going back and going back and thinking if I’m just kinda and I’ve
I’m just if I do more if I’m more loving if I’m more this if I’m more generous if
I’m more um that it’ll it’ll fix because there are so many stories like that but I I
don’t know I think sometimes you you can lack boundaries in that actually
and so and and not say actually I need
to withdraw from the relationship for a while or I need to
and it’s not always easy I was speaking with the client this week and she has a
I guess a lady in her community and she’s in a tight community so it’s
almost like a relative or something it’s not but it’s almost like that
and she’s got to navigate the relationship that woman who is very
judgmental who’s a bit of a gossip who’s a bit of a bully um and it’s not straightforward you
can’t always leave but I think you can and this is perhaps more important for
women you can think about how much you want to disclose to them
um yeah and keep it brief keep it minimal and but people do get
like offended that you hold back you know you’re seen as cold
and it’s also the opposite where people are offended from over sharing because I
actually have the opposite tendency where people are like hey Josh maybe you need to be quiet for a little bit now
um maybe you’ve said enough maybe you’re saying more than you should so it’s like and then we you know the the cliche
saying we can’t be friends to everybody right we can’t make everybody happy that’s just just a fact of life right
it’s impossible um also the the advice of limited to a half an hour this is really good even
more so there’s folks that we don’t want to kind of blow off but we just don’t want to engage on them with any extended
period of time so we can give them you know 10 minutes of our time but we just have to now how this is done in
practicality with some people it is a different thing you know some people we have to be more blunt with some people
can pick up more on subtle cues but this is the thing we have if we’re if we’re not in a space where we’re um bringing
out um something that’s benefit official for the other person are ourselves or both
or everybody well then I think it’s time to reassess like what’s the best way to
go about this to kind of get the most bang for the buck here yeah and I want to address that and then
we yeah and yeah I will and then we’ll go back to Lawrence um and and I think there is something
about um oh there was something you said and I
thought ah I I know kind of how I want to answer that and now I’ve forgotten what you said
so much good some juicy stuff there it’s just like choosing which morsel to take
so it’s about the the time limit um that uh it’s it’s not practical to
have everybody like us all the time oh I know yeah so when I was when I was a kid
you know I always really bullied a lot and I
okay well um I’m just gonna be me like there are some
people on the planet and I cannot know everybody not everyone is
going to like me I don’t like everybody and
um I can be passive in who I keep in contact with or I can take a proactive
position and go that person I want to have in my life because I like them
because they are warm they are kind they are thoughtful that person I’m not keen
on having them in my life because um they are not hurt they are not kind they
are not thoughtful they are not caring I mean there are people are going to be difficult there are times when you have
to just work through stuff but I I think it’s really important to
um I think in all of this what’s really
important is to acknowledge the actual pain in actual pain Lawrence has put here and
he said using the two truth method has helped and I think by just to check in
with Lawrence just just double check me here but I think with the tutus method
does that by that do you mean the absolute truth and the relative truth is
that what you mean but let me pick up real quick on what what Wendy said and it can also be the
opposite like there’s people that I I like them pushing me and challenging me
at the same time it can be too much so knowing when I’m being in my comfort
zone too much and when I need to get out and then sometimes I seek out certain people that will help push me to my Edge
and test me on how I’m going to respond but sometimes I fail at that it’s then
sometimes I have to limit the time with them and then pull back as well so that’s that’s an uh another thing that
that goes with this too and that now I forgot the other point too but yeah let’s jump into I know Lawrence and I
have had Dharma talk um I guess Dharma discussions too and I’m grateful for Lawrence for um asking the tough
questions to me sometimes um um so go ahead Wendy so he has confirmed
that it’s about the relative and the absolute and so for um other people who are listening just to explain what the relative and the
absolute is this is my understanding so um the relative position is that
we how do I say this well we relate so one is larger one is smaller that one is
you know there are bigger and smaller there are louder they’re taller there are it’s a it’s a comparative position
and it’s also saying that um we are we kind of connect at certain
points so there is a truth to the fact that Josh and I are on this
um call together and Lawrence and other people are here listening to Lady net
and there’s an a natural position of kind of engaging with uh the language how we understand sound
and and being part of things and and we exist in the sense that we uh we respond so
there’s all this like interactions and responsive so that’s what the relative
world is the relative truth is is working on the absolute is more to do
with this uh more deep understanding about how things are connected so I
guess I would say the relative is to do with the fact that we are interconnected
and that we kind of bump up against each other and we we are conditional in the
way that we navigate our relationships and the absolute is that at a deep level
we’re sort of all Atomic and there is there is no self there is no
uh fixed permanent stable condition we are always in this
state of flux and to not take it things so personally because there is no
person I think it can be very easy just on a side there to do a bit of spiritual
bypassing by by moving into that space of thinking well it’s not real pain
because it’s all um relative you know at a deep level
it’s it’s reli it’s absolute so it’s not really there and I think that that can
lead to a false unders false [Music] um
a false uh oh well somebody said to me yesterday it’s like emotional
um resistance rather than a resilience and I thought that was a really good way
of looking at it so emotional resistance would be bypassing I don’t feel upset because I know in reality that there is
no self and a self and and that’s kind of really you can hear that
over the top um but resilient is saying out that
really hurts and that was extremely painful and
how can I navigate that so that I don’t feel I don’t have
they should have done this and they should have done that and carrying it Forward says he is happy
um can you hear me because it says I’m one of the streams is not connecting can you hear me
I can yes I was um putting more stuff in the chat there
because I didn’t realize that YouTube will truncate the the comments so I had to copy and paste and pay attention to
how to do that’s pain anyway um so yes so this is um the so I the one
thing that stuck out at me that I would want to say more on in is the uh
not uh the not self so it’s this is a really complex thing especially for
people that don’t have a deeper meditation practice I would say not not all people but it’s this teaching of not
self and it’s more like a strategy and it’s it’s very complex it’s not that because when the Buddha asks point blank
is there a self is there not a self he didn’t answer the question because yes there’s there’s a type of thing we call
a self you know that’s how we navigate in the world right but on deeper levels it’s like this construct you know
sometimes it can be a very helpful construct to navigate the world in but it is that it’s a construct right if you
start deconstructing really looking into it which can be kind of dangerous for some people I would say because it can
be really destabilizing as well so you know there’s uh it all depends on who we
want to try to talk to about this strategy but I think everything you said was put very well
um the two truths um let’s see thanosaur Biko out a little bit on this that
Lawrence and I have talked about a little bit and
yeah I don’t know where I want to go with this you know um I I guess it would have to be more in relationship or in a
meditative context so I guess more specific questions would have to be asked with this for for me to Dole out
knowledge on it I think Wendy’s uh overview and explanation was very well
so um so what about the the saxophone Wendy and then I guess we can jump back into your original topic if there’s no other
question yeah um so I know people ask me what is
meditation I learned a really good good thing the other day which I had not I
hadn’t heard from basically with the Dharma you have three
layers of the the Dharma and the first is ethics the second layer is mind
training or meditation and the third is uh
interdependence I’m going to call it that that the two truths the recognition
of two truths some say it’s wisdom right and uh
it’s often translated but I I get I don’t really like that translation because it gives the impression that you
have to be kind of wise or clever or something like that as opposed to seeing that the world is inherently unstable
and dynamic and living with that reality and not getting overwhelmed or whatever
so that’s why I kind of went interconnected more at that point
I like them well I would say that um that is why you’re wise if you see and
know that right uh and not try to get too caught up in other um ideas about wisdom but actually can
live and know that so yes jump right into it though the interconnectedness I love that I want to hear more about that
yeah so I thought that was really interesting to kind of go okay so the foundation is ethics and I really like
that and the second one and I think with ethics foods not only uh whether we are kind and how do
we speak to others and how do how do we behave and what is the impact on our bodies and you know whether that invokes
you know shame and paranoia and things but also I think it means that the
better we know our mind the bigger we are because we are more able to look
ahead and think how what is the long-term effect of that so that that’s
a really nice Foundation to have it in and meditation is the normal mind
training and I you know what I really like about
thinking about well what is meditation
this Josh my form of meditation and what they’re describing is relaxation you
know I like to curl up with a good book and kind of let things go and somebody else is like I like to walk
along the beach and go for a bit of a stroll and let my mind settle and so
that to me is not meditation because it’s not to me you you hear a starting point and
thinking well what what quality is an attitude in my mind do I want to take with me going ahead so that to me is
training because it’s like the more if there’s something about really engaging with
what is here in order to understand what is here in order to think where do I
want to go with that so so strolling Along by the beach or
whatever um or sitting there calming down that sort of stuff I to me
that’s not meditation and somebody somebody asked me oh I and I
think this is similar to what Lawrence is saying you know I’m in a foul mood I
I sit at the piano for a couple of hours and I just let it all kind of I come out and I’m
like in a better space and I would say that is flow
so I don’t know Lawrence if that’s what you’re describing you go in there and you’re in a foul mood or you’re in a
particular state of mind and then at the end of that your karma
but but I I think the problem with that is that there isn’t the training
to to be how do I be in the world what is my ethical position going for in this
how am I going to how’s this going to interact with other people how how is this time
understanding this time what I’m doing it changing the way that I understand
myself to be with more able to be with others now it depends on kind of
um it uh so Florence has said flow was the answer I was looking for was seeking as
a difference so that is the flow so yeah you know I would uh you know add yes
just when he was getting out uh even more succinctly is how is playing the
saxophone helping train your mind and for what purposes would such a
training be undertaken for that mind training so yeah
yeah and I think that it can be but it just depends on you know what is it that you want to do
this as an act of love you know are you are you learning the sex in order to
the I want I want people to have a beautiful experience of Life of music to
dance to feel embodied to feel joyous in life then I’m like okay this is an act of
love it’s an act of Joy this is a compassion and then I go we’re in the
Brahma baharas that the four immeasurables the Divine abodes and that
to me is if that is your intention if that is your heart space that you are working with
then I say yes and this is a really good point of Distinction so when I say mind training
uh I guess maybe the word is uh the poly word chitta so it’s sometimes trained as a heart mind so yes it can’t neglect the
heart either in the problem of the horrors are a really good training because it’s not just well I love this I
love that because I can love ice cream right these are actual really beautiful
practical qualities that can be cultivated for our own betterment and
progression expansion um and uh uh towards less stress in life
and for others too because when we have trained the hardness way to meet just
about any instance in life with these four heart qualities of loving kindness or Unstoppable friendliness
um compassion um basically meaning what we talked about earlier of
um acknowledging pain that’s where it starts uh and caring about it wanting it
to release and be free from it and then uh rejoicing you know being happy for
other people’s happiness and then Equanimity kind of the grand apparently
um even Keel care and at the same time knowing that I
can’t live other people’s lives for them they have to make their own decisions these ways of meeting the world and
ourselves um uh are are is a training in such a
beautiful yet practical I feel quality that we can engage in and cultivate and
yeah there’s so many ways to go about doing this there’s more formal versions of it too and then there’s just things
that have kind of like a a valence maybe or a trace or um a flavor of these um
Sublime abidings they’re they’re called sometimes and yes and so uh really briefly here uh on
insight timer I think they they asked for people to if they like this they’re welcome to donate since it’s a donation
based platform and um yeah so I guess if if Wendy has anything else to add we can
go for that um this next thing here and we’ve just got to ambiguity right so the next one’s
uncomfortable truths oh yeah this was one I got big time practice with over Thanksgiving but I’ll just uh they’re
right there for me so the thing just to add on a thing about Brown I like
Buddhist term for the Divine abodes and Ike immeasurables I feel it’s more what
are we doing here it gives a bit more guidance on that and the reason I like the immeasurables is because it’s like
it’s immeasurable in how many times and how many ways you can practice with whom you can practice and the knock-on effect
is immeasurable so if I’m kind to you in this moment well you’ve got other ways
and other places and we’ve got you know how many people we’ve got listening here now 32 meditators we’ve got so thank you
to everybody who’s just listening to this so we don’t know how of those 32
people who are with us what the impact will be of being kind in
our conversation with each other and what the knock-on effect will be to them and and I that’s why I like the
term immeasurable so what was your question so they’re boundless yes it’s just there is no
limit no you know they go so I don’t like uh infinite as much uh but boundless like they they go beyond all
boundaries so even if we’ve constructed boundaries for ourselves these are things that just penetrate all that
because they’re not only harmless but they’re just it’s it’s really hard to
pick a bone with a lot of these I think as long as we get the definitions right now there are some um you know once we
really dial into what these mean and their effects um I feel it’s really it’s it’s really
key to these as well too so there’s a little bit of details involved but yeah they’re such beautiful immeasurable
boundless States so the next one is practicing I mean sorry um how to
practice with uncomfortable truths so um this is something where
usually I invite these and I love these but not everybody loves truth or
uncomfortable truth I’m learning this the hard way right some people like to stay in their comfort zones because a
truth can really destroy someone’s reality you know it can decimate it and
so I find myself more times than not uh well maybe a little bit better recently but
until it really bites me in the rear end that um I’m infringing on some people’s
realities when I’m speaking certain truth to them that they’re not either ready to hear or they’re not equipped to
know how to handle okay so this is why the Buddhist guidelines for wise speech also included besides speaking truth is
it has to be spoken at the right time it has to be done with kindness and neither of those I feel sometimes are that I’m
violating when I do this and not considering those are they bringing Concord of course it’s not bringing
Concord if I’m decimating someone’s um reality uh with the truth right and and
then the other one what am I missing here um but I think that’s enough to get
started on this now um I love just because just because I love uh truth and being called out on my
own uh stinky BS doesn’t mean everybody does right so this is it has to be be
considered that way now [Music] um yeah so I think that’s enough for Wendy
to to address
it depends on whether we’re in either or that you’re coming from a position of
so you and I are having this conversation in a Dharma capacity no we’re going yeah and I can go geez
you’re a bit off there or whatever but we’re both kind of equals in this
place we’re in this place together didn’t I say I I think I’m above you
and I go you know Josh you’ve got about something like you know whatever attitude going there and there’s a sense
of separation between us then I think that that to me is the
difference and what I often do with people maybe if they come to a prop you know they come
with with me uh to me with a problem they’ve got and my first question is not
to answer them um it’s to there’s a few different ways that I do this but
if they’ve got a problem um or a thought maybe they’re thinking I’m a bad person or whatever it is I
start off and I use the metabavna so the loving kindness meditation framework where you go so I go okay well what’s
the you know just feel that that sentence or that thought in your mind
and just feel it how it lands in the body and where it is and and what kind of the fullness of the experience
and what is good about that thought so maybe if
um this morning I I was I was meditating and I thought wow I really hate myself
you know it was just that was true like that I just I was like wow this is the truth I actually feel that that I really
hate myself I really that is the uncomfortable truth of what I I felt
this morning so I had to just sit there and go well what is good about that and it’s like
that actually at some level I see that
um I have that in common with so many other people actually that so many people
dislike themselves and I I know what it’s like to not like yourself sort of
way of connecting with other people and also it makes me think I don’t want to
be like that actually I want to be different and I don’t want anybody else
to think that about themselves so it helps me um engage with that as a a perspective
that is unhelpful but there is something quite motivating just in acknowledging it so the first
one is to go well what is good about that thought and the next one I go is what is bad
about that thought I was like well I feel like I don’t it it right it uh what
is it undermines my sense of confidence I feel like I’m worthless and no good on
the planet and how could my partner love me and I could if I was not watchful
about that and attentive I could maybe do something in the relationship which
would sabotage the goodness within us within our relationship if I actually
believed it if I actually acted on it then it would be a harmful thing in a
relationship and then you know my favorite question
with uncomfortable truths is what am I not seeing about this
and and it’s like as I say that about
that thought you know I really hate myself you know I think I’m just awful
horrible person it’s like that is such a temporary State actually other times I
know it’s not true sometimes I think I’m a really cool person I really like who I
am I like that I do lots of really fun
different things and I’m put forward
which is which is that bad the unknown what am I not seeing about this
that helps me create a whole lot to bring it down to a
smallest and to provide text and to really understand its place within me
and attention to all that so that’s that’s how I deal with uncomfortable truths
well that’s that’s beautiful Wendy and I mentioned I think I mentioned this in a
follow-up email from one of our uh shows and this is if I’m getting this right
this is kind of Tara Tara Brock’s approach to this is it feels it feels
while it feels real it’s not true so you know it feels really like that
but it’s not true that that uh you’re a crappy person you know that’s not true
it feels like that and you can’t argue with how it feels because that’s the way it feels right there’s no right or wrong
feelings they’re all valid but it’s not true and I I challenge you on that so the the
traditional Dharma language is you know look at what you you point at so beautifully is what is the benefit of
this you know what’s the Allure of this experience what’s the danger of it and
then what’s the Escape uh you know
yeah right the um the thing too about this is this
is so wild because this is more on in inferior inferior ego uh point and I
went through this for years the you know sadness depression that that kind of thing and I don’t talk about that much
because it’s not all that relevant anymore unless I get asked specific questions around certain people like this now the flipping it though the um
the superior ego state so this is the almost the the polar opposite to this where the uncomfortable truth is what if
someone’s perceiving me again and again that I am I’m the superior guy and it’s
this habit that I am the victimizer and maybe I was at one time you know but now
it’s just like it’s this pattern that’s been and so what happens when I just
start to um kind of use that against these accusations to meet the same energy meet
that energy with the same energy and then it’s just like two heads butt are
two fires come together and so this is another interesting approach but um
and I don’t think it’s really a wiser helpful approach but that’s what happened
um uh that’s happened before here recently and
what happened was it ended in just kind of no it severed the communication for
for a little while you know I’m sure there’s going to be it’ll come back together but it really
um stopped things it wasn’t pleasant uh it probably wasn’t
skillful in my part but that’s what happened I kind of met the same energy uh with this you know at that energy
with the same energy and uh at least it had the effect of me causing
um less harm going forward because the that communication stopped even temporarily so while there were still a
lot of lingering kind of um challenging feelings I guess or whatnot that um at
least my words wouldn’t couldn’t harm any more for that time period that that we are um together
I guess so yeah so that’s the other end of this so this it’s just life is just so rich
and so I look at it not as a failure on my part so much as like a challenge this
shows me what I still have to work with right that I can that this is only one way to approach things like this or all
these different techniques and we’re learning as we go along right we’re not we’re not fully enlightened Buddhas yet
if you haven’t noticed well what about hey Josh what about this you know in that interaction so I had
something similar where my partner and I we’ve just moved into this new house and and I was and I said to him should we
put the plant this plant around the back of the house and he kind of was he grabbed it and
he’s like and and I was like wow what happened there you know and
I came back to him five ten minutes later whatever it was I’m probably maybe more like 15. just because I was like
wow I maybe did I I’m just wondering if I silenced you actually because he had
said look I’m not really up to this this and I’m like oh should we should we just move it now and I said oh did I silence
you and uh and he said no you you it was actually there was something Superior
and demanding in your voice and so I was like oh yeah yeah I know
it’s really it’s true like I know that that is part of my patterning that I
come with that history you know that I have that they’re demanding history so I
know so I kind of just agreed with him so what I’m wondering is why you wouldn’t just agree with them going yeah
actually I I hadn’t seen that side of myself before and I’ll think about it
like what made you want to react so the the question here is so what is
the question in this though so to to me it’s like you know if somebody comes to
you and goes hey Josh you’re a bit Superior there and it’s like where you go oh
I think you’re probably right there I know I can be I know I have been it’s
probably true this you know well if I you know I I don’t know you you see things I I have a voice inside my head
and I don’t hear my tone in the same way inside of me that that is what it lands
in other people and so how it lands on other people but if he says you know our Superior
demanding then well I reckon he’s probably right so the question is for me
is what made you kind of defend against it to me that is
the question oh yeah wouldn’t you just agree so this this wasn’t really defending this was
just me getting more a little bit belligerent with the same type of energy that was coming at me now in the
instance you’re telling me about that is so rich and complex and diverse for for there’s so many different layers and
just a few of them that I picked out well you know there’s the traditional gender roles and I know that’s a huge
topic and it’s been politicized so much now for good and bad and otherwise so
that that comes into play in that instance that wouldn’t necessarily come in because this was um this was the same
sex family member in in a way so the the other thing is yes this is really
important so I I learned this fairly early on thanksgood thank goodness well
actually it wasn’t but when I learned that a lot of people especially those who identify with emotions they don’t
really pay as much attention to what’s being said it’s how it’s being said and
so me living in my head so much in having these uh kind of identifying with the world more with thoughts
how you say things it’s oftentimes just as important and a lot of times way more
important than the content of what’s being said I mean it could be the most rational even helpful thing but if it
triggers something in somewhat emotionally just by the the tone of voice and how it’s being conveyed that
it overrides anything else so that is like at the Forefront and what people so
the the people I feel that identify more with emotions they don’t know where the people that are coming from a lot of
times without training uh that are coming more from from cognition and thoughts and vice versa right the people
that are coming from cognition and thoughts they want to lay everything out there really logical and get you know it
just makes so much sense and you can’t see it know that you’re you’re missing the emotional context in the feelings of
this and yeah how it’s being conveyed so that’s of utmost important in this too
and so but then um intimate relationship type things there’s a whole nother Rich Dynamic
that’s going on there now and it just amazes me how what we might think of as
something very kind of minute and of insignificant
um uh things in so many other areas of life when it comes to Intimate Relationships those things especially if
there’s habits and patterns around them can just amplify off the charts sometimes right so but so right so in my
instance of this I guess you said the question was why didn’t I just uh no but
it still applies though it is so you know yeah why didn’t I back down why didn’t I say well yeah you’re right you
know why am I acting like this why why am I responding like this I mean you obviously perceive me in that way
um so you know something’s going on here you know um and I was trying to prove a point and
um you know kind of defend myself and explain you know why what I was doing
wasn’t actually the way it’s uh being perceived but that was kind of beside the point you know because of the the
emotions that got involved on both sides right so there are a couple of things first up T lady Nat has said yes
delivery in tone and also body language thank you tea lady Nat
um and I think that’s really true and and the other one you know you’ve said that you had so I’m going to pull you up
actually on this all right so hey here we go folks the other thing is we finish up in five minutes I think too so just a
heads up on on our time um you’ve said that you have a cognitive
approach um and but you reacted completely emotionally
you were reacting to their energy which is the emotion actually and there’s something here in the
cognitive approach is a superior position and and so that and but you know it’s
really easy to think that the the intellect is superior
and you know because there is a there is a that is a stance of superiority in
fact and even if me describing this I feel like me even pointing it out to you
kind of is also part of it what I would
um what I do which is really helpful is to just ask well what am I not seeing
about this that’s my go-to whenever I feel like I’m doing stuff
um that pisses people off is I’m like well what am I not seeing about this what I’m I’ve clearly got some energy in
here you know but I had my therapist and she’s like fussy boots she called me that and it took me ages to realize that
she was kind of saying you’re actually really Buzzy it’s a barrier and demanding so I was like oh you were
actually either this is totally spot on Wendy it really
is and I think there is some contention where there’s some competition here that
um you know that that want to be considered more Superior
intellectually or something or that you know attacking stuff but it’s it’s like you
know let’s peel all that away and get to the heart you know get to the heart of this get to
um you know this in this interrelation interrelational interaction and this involves emotions
and things um and so what I was trying to do the the thing that I completely went out the
window is I was just matching the energy that was coming at me right I didn’t stand firm
in my in my light in my wisdom and my power and Hold Steady and then pause and
respond with the level of energy that I really wanted to bring to this no I got entangled with the energy that was
coming at me and so I responded with the same type of energy okay so but I but is
it energy or is it just emotion well as we know emotion is a huge amplifier
right so it will amplify and one of the purposes of emotion is to kind of push
someone away as a protection right one of the things or the opposite to really kind of draw in so it’s um it’s an
amplifier I I feel that you know well you know some of the emotions are
uh rich and beautiful like in in music and whatnot a lot of times uh most of them with training can be cleared and
that that’s not to be uh where you should just go into all intellectual approach that’s not what I mean I mean
um kind of mastering our emotions so where we have a choice of what emotion that we want to bring to the situation
for the best of all involved right the highest good of all involved um and then everybody ideally so this is
where we train our emotions too right and a lot of it uh has to do with clearing the emotions but at before even
all that comes is being aware of this the emotions especially of myself so not
everybody can tune in all the time to all the rich diversity of emotions and other people
um so yeah so we haven’t even got to um we’ve got two things down here the
next one was people we love but don’t like their ways or words we kind of got into to that a little bit navigating
guilt shame and humiliation we got into that I guess in previous episodes but I
think we’re going to have to start wrapping it up here right yeah I think but I think it’s really
interesting because um there’s also some some ways there that
um it’s it’s like there’s something there which I sort of thought are there it feels a bit
um like we’re using words in ways I don’t know I’m Not So
Sophisticated with the understanding the difference between energy and emotion because to me what I hear is that
somebody was hurt didn’t defend it against their hurt because they felt
like you were speaking down to them I’m guessing and then you went back and then you just
were equally kind of uh reactive and you were caught in the emotional reactivity
which then as you yes you can see it just ricochets and it’s just you know
let’s make a big drama and catastrophe of everything you know because clearly
between you and this other person it created actually quite a lot of hurt you know and this is what we did and it was
it was something that was one it took that that response it was probably like
three seconds long and yet the Imp the tail of that Comet tale of that it was
just how long ago was that you know somebody said something to you and you were like 10 in primary school and the
tale of that is how many decades I I it’s so amazing anyway we’re at times
yeah and I accused him of um just doing the same thing he was doing to me
so but that’s that’s a vicious cycle I have to choose to stop that because it
yeah I can’t I can’t uh you know I have to take responsibility for my actions and my words I can’t rely on somebody
else to break Cycles so that’s it’s it’s on me my responsibility what you know how I view it and how I respond is
totally my responsibility it really doesn’t matter uh other than you know um
yeah so that’s that that’s that case so no abuse when it gets into abuse that’s a different thing but all right well all
you all uh thank thanks for joining us and I guess we’ll catch you next month
Wendy did you have the date and time um of that oh I should show you but before
I do before I do I will look it up in a two seconds um I just wanted to say Jay says thank
you uh Wendy Joshua an all really good q a peace and love so and and Lawrence
says cheers and it’s just so nice to to have people
um be interested in this it’s just you know you know you go round and round and round in circles half the time so
um I think our next one is a just before Christmas I’m just quickly looking it up here uh now my time zone I’m in
Australia so it’s worth bearing in mind that my time zones are really different but I’ve got it down for 11 30. let me
just look it up because it’s 11 it’s okay so the 21st of December your time and you’re in Chicago time Central Time
and then at 7 30 7 30 p.m I’m in Australia in Brisbane and I’m 30 a.m on
Thursday the 22nd so we’re doing a pre-Christmas how to survive
yes it’s a it’s a really um yeah uh good time of year to engage in that so it’ll
be I guess geared towards that unless other people have questions on that so it’s again that’s the 21st at 7 30
central time and I’m not even going to try to remember the Australian time um
and just a quick just heads up T lady net has said always a pleasure Wendy you are a beautiful soul and love to Joshua
and all so thank you to lady nut for those beautiful comments it really is is beautiful it is heartwarming too so yeah
and very helpful and true so yeah okay y’all thanks for joining and
may you be blessed with um all the optimal and ideal interactions uh around
holidays and Beyond yeah just keep saying it’s all I say
don’t make it worse
Integrating Presence 
61 thoughts on “Ambiguity And Uncomfortable Truths | 11/30/2022 “Meditation Q & A With Wendy Nash” #03”