For this month’s regular open-audience, open-discussion “Ask Us Anything” — continuing discussions about meditation and related topics — fellow Insight Timer teachers Lydia Grace, Denny and I explore the alignment of intent and impact.
Doing full show notes seems to take (me) a lot of time and energy so I may or may not include full notes later. I welcome any inspired listener(s) to take and send show notes for inclusion here by emailing them to integratingpresence@protonmail.com.
My notes before the show:
- What is intent/resolve/aspiration/motivation/attitude/sammā-saṅkappa (generating thoughts with intention for progressing on the Eightfold Noble Path) and how does it work? [relinquishment/letting go, freedom from ill will, harmlessness]
- How can one control how one impacts another?
- *Non-Harming* training precept
- What weakens resolve?
- intention affects the nervous system and shapes the mind
- More emphasis on *how*. Intent how? Impact how?
- Request from Denny for teaching on right intent path factor
- Our final impact is likely death of the body so what do we intend to do with this short, precious life?
- https://dharmaseed.org/talks/56147/ Volition – Cetana by Ajahn Punnadhammo
[for previous show, Letting Our Body Talk, in reference to wholesomeness:]
“Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another’s seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, “The monk is our teacher.” Kalamas, when you yourselves know: “These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,” enter on and abide in them.”
Excerpt from the Kalama Sutta – The Buddha’s Charter of Free Inquiry
Audio: Impact And Intent | (1/25/2022 — “Ask Us Anything – LIVE” With Denny K Miu And Lydia Grace)
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Find and connect with Lydia:
- https://www.massagebook.com/Vail~Massage~lydia-grace
- https://thelydiagrace.newzenler.com/home
- https://insighttimer.com/timewithgrace
- https://www.instagram.com/joyfulnomad
- https://www.facebook.com/lydiagracecoaching
Join Denny live Saturdays online for Yi Jin Jing and mindful joint, stretching, breathing, and qi exercises at 8:00am Pacific via:
Denny’s other links:
- http://dennykmiu.com/Patreon (Dharma Articles and Podcast)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Circle (Insight Timer Circle: Mindfulness Fellowship)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Daily (Daily Practice Video)
- http://dennykmiu.com/AUA (Monthly Online Discussion)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Saturday (Saturday Practice in English)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Exercise (Daily Practice in Cantonese)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Video (Dharma Talks in English)
- http://dennykmiu.com/Metta (Dharma Talks in Cantonese)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
Lydia, how are you?
Good. I’m doing great today. Excellent. Excellent. And Josh?
Uh doing well. Juggling some technical stuff here. So welcome to anybody on different
platforms that we have today. I
know I I I have a few myself. I’m I’m watching you watching us.
So, I was, I want to go back to our last conversation, Lydia
and there was one thing that really struck me which was, you would describing how I I think
if I if I remember correctly, you were describing how someone actually wanted to hug you or
wanted to touch you or something. It was out of what he could perceive to be compassion and you actually
felt that you didn’t feel comfortable. Maybe I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I just want to bring us
back to that conversation. Do you remember that at all? Yeah, I one of the things that came up in our last conversation was
I was talking about which is the title of today, Impact Over Intention and it was actually
more of a hypothetical. It was in a specific situation but I was talking about like, I have
gone through some trauma in my life, and hypothetically, if someone came up to me to give
me a hug when I was closer to that trauma, they might think they’re doing it out of good intention to like, show care,
or whatever, but my body might be interpreting it as danger, not, not okay, I don’t want
that, and then I’m I’m suddenly put in some sort of uncomfortable situation where
socially, it’s weird to refuse a hug but they weren’t tuning in to the fact that I might not respond well to it because who
doesn’t want to hug? You know what I mean? So, it was kind of to bring up this idea of just because our intention might be
good doesn’t mean it’s always translated that translated in that way to other people and
part of like personal development is also noticing the impact we have on others even when we good intention
when it’s like not translated that way to someone else, the way they’re receiving it. So, that was kind of, I think,
from, from what I remember, what I was moving into in that conversation. Yeah, yeah, I, I
want to, I want to just say something to kind of support that. I, I, my son is, is here,
with us, for the holiday, and he brought with him his pets, a
dog, and a, and a cat that and a, and a dog is a old dog that he got from the pound, and
obviously a a dog with that history has a lot of trauma. And I think this is a very good
example and and I probably example that a lot of people have firsthand experience with
which is the dogs who have for any kind of beings who have so
much trauma in their past. Um they have a difficulty opening
up and if you’re not aware of that you could actually have
the wrong impact even if you have the right intention.
And I I mean I, I see that happen, I’ve noticed that
happen in my own life, in, in like, just regular interpersonal conflict, where
someone is like, that, you were so insulting when you said that to me and I was like, what? I didn’t mean to hurt you, you
know, of like, I’ve noticed that sometimes, we, meaning,
sometimes I’ve done this, we can hide behind taking responsibility for the impact we’ve had over people, because
the response wasn’t what we were expecting and it almost keeps us from seeing, you know
what, my tone was a little aggressive there, huh? I need to be careful about that, or, you know, opening up, not to
just say just because someone has some sort of impact that’s negative, it doesn’t automatically mean we’re responsible for it, because
sometimes the receiver is just, that’s it, but there’s, I’ve
noticed sometimes we can hide behind, well, because I didn’t mean it, sorry, it’s your fault, that you were affect by
me. You know, instead of like, oh, let me tune in. Was there
anything in my field of awareness that I can maybe look into a little deeper? Doesn’t
all that come back to listening that if you, if, I mean, one
has to ask himself, oneself, whether or not you are truly listening to the other person,
because if, if, if you, if I, I believe, if you’re truly
listening, then intent and the impact is much more aligned. Mm
hmm. And I’m not I I’m trying to remember if I use that example
I’m I’m sure I did. I I I there’s only example that I use which is my dad who suffers from dementia. And he’s already
at that stage where it’s not so much dementia. It’s it is just bedridden. You know, so he’s
just lying very peacefully and requires 24 7 care. And I have
to be super careful actually. I and I mentioned that. Uh I think last time. And I have to
remind all my siblings and even my mom to be super careful because we don’t know if my dad
recognized as as who we are. He recognized us as someone who
provides care and he is very appreciative of that. But that
doesn’t automatically means that he recognize us as his son or his wife. And so we have to
kind of be super sensitive to that and establish boundary. And so the example I use is
that I I I made a mistake of wanting to hug him. And it actually frightens him. Mm hmm.
And it was only after that and I realized, oh. I’m not who I think I am.
So in your in your everyday encounter in in your teaching, how do you bring that point to
your students? It’s interesting because I recently had a session with a client and I appreciate you said it requires
presence and listening And I want to bring up the concept of listening. I think it was our
last conversation we talked about it. Where are you listening from? Like are you listening to the words? Are you listening to the meaning behind
the words? Are you listening to their body language? Are you listening with hunched forward
shoulders in a defensive posture? Are you listening with a more open chest posture? You know, like, first of all, how
are you listening? Where is your nervous system when you’re listening? Cuz that’s going to filter what you tune into. And
then what are you actually listening to in them? Are you listening to, as they talk, their shoulders are turning
away from you in a protective stance because they’re feeling vulnerable? Are you, you know what I mean? Like, there’s so
many aspects we can listen to and in a recent session with a client, we talked about This
idea, it’s called bidding for connection. I forget if it was the Hendrix or some couple that
researches relationship. And and they talk about this idea of bidding for connection,
meaning, throughout the day, we’re constantly on a subconscious level, creating
opportunities and almost open loops to connect with other people that were not even aware
of. As simple as, like now with technology, sending a meme to someone, you know, or Like if
you’re, I gave an example to the client of like, like the old, tiny example of like, a
husband sitting down, reading a newspaper while the wife is like working in the kitchen, or whatever, like in the morning,
drinking tea, or coffee, and then the husband’s like, hm, while he’s reading. And it’s
it’s almost like a little bit of a bid for connection That’s a subconscious way to like
engage the wife being like, what was, is there something you want to tell me? Or like standing in a room and there’s
other people and you’re like, wow, it’s such a sunny day today. And you say it out loud And there’s a part of you, the
person might not even realize they’re saying it out loud to get connection. But it’s these,
our most biggest desire as humans is connection, because connection allows us to survive by, you know, evolutionarily
and all that. And so, it ideas where we talk, we process this
with the client of like, what are, what are your bids for connection when you’re around people, when you’re around
people that you care about, how do you bid for connection? do
you know the bids for connection from other people and how do you engage with them? When someone’s telling
you a story, do you pick up your phone and start scrolling or check a text saying like, no, I’m still listening and
then split your attention, You know, and because it’s all, it’s in so many of these little, tiny things that we
barely notice through the day that can sometimes build up into a conflict of you never listen. You’re not present when
I tell you stuff. I don’t feel like, you know, like, where’d you go? You’re in the room but you’re not here, you know, and
it it can lead into a cumulative effect where our nervous system is reading these signals where we’re either
missing the bid or we’re engaging and when we can come
into the subtlety of noticing, then, we can actually start creating more emotional safety
in our relationships with ourselves and others just by meeting those bids. Or noticing, if it matters, you
know, and so that would be an like a recent example of how I
brought in this concept of listening and very simple ways that you can start noticing how
to nurture interpersonal connection and it, you don’t even have Bring it up into conversation. You can just
start noticing how does my partner, how does my friend, how does my sister or family member bid for connection just
on a regular basis? And do I actually engage or do I think
it’s not important or do I, the answer with, huh, or like, huh. When I’m not really fully
engaged myself, you know, like, it’s a whole another level of tuning in. That’s more subtle.
But can have big effect in our lives, positive or negative. Mm hm yeah so so right before the
show, I, we, we talk about and
the, a Vietnamese monk that passed away in the last week and, and so, obviously we, all
three of us have been exposed to his teaching, and I did a memorial on last on the
Saturday practice, dedication, more like, and so I, I find
myself having to go back to the speeches that he made interviews that he did to
kind of even though I have seen it before but I I and it’s interesting that for example
when he was doing the interview with Oprah Oprah and Oprah asked questions and he said something and as a layman you
know the things that Tate would say seem very profound but in reality is that it just normal
they they day by day Buddhist teaching. For example when
Oprah asked stay how do you how how do you, you know, how can you be so calm? How do you deal
with, you know, all the suffering and emotions and he says, well, I just pay attention to my breathing. And
so, this goes back to, I just want to pick up on the two words that you said. One was
presence And the other one, so, so let me focus on the presence
first, and so that’s, that’s exactly the word that they use as well, which is, if you, if
you truly care about someone, then this is, especially true, if you’re a caregiver, that if you dare to or if you’re a
spouse of your friend or you know if you are a a student or a teacher, it doesn’t matter.
if you are truly interested in the interaction, then you have
to be present. Meaning that, and in this case, it’s not just about the physical presence,
it’s really about the, the, the mental presence as well. So the question is, we we can
understand the physical part. You know, if I’m here, then I’m here. If not here, then I’m not here. But just because your
body is here, doesn’t mean that your mind is here. So, the question then is, if your body is here but your mind is here,
where is what is the distraction? the distractions
can be in a way both physical and and and spiritual. Physical means that I I’m distracted by
a thought. Something that is real. Something that just happens or something that about to happen. You know I’m I’m
getting ready to prepare a meal for my family. You know I I my mind is on that. But it could also be something else. It
could also be and this is going back to I think either last last time at the time before when we talk about letting your
body speak. Which is that actually what’s dominates the conversation is our our trauma
experience right? And that’s the problem. That’s the problem. Is that,
yes, I am speaking to it. Yes, I am listening to you. I hear the word that you use but my
interpretation have nothing to do with you. And we have to be present for ourselves to to
begin with, right? If we can’t show up and be present for ourselves and help. Yeah, and
that’s and that’s what I mean is that the thing that Tay says at first glance sounds very
profound but it’s just basic Buddhist teaching and that’s what mindfulness is, is making
sure you know at least where your mind is. You know, so that’s what that’s what it
means to be present is that if I don’t know where my mind is then how could I be even present with myself? And some
people would even say, well, what good is that going to do? Paying attention to your breathing, right? That’s the other end of spectrum. People
be like, what good is that going to do? Well, I I I have I have a I have a perfect answer to that. I have a perfect
answer to that because my students are all basically all grandmothers. You know, I I
call them they’re my small army of Cantonese speaking grandmothers and all they, you
know, I I anticipate that question and my answer is that well, what good is the good, what does it do when you walk
your grandchildren to school? And you don’t hold their hands? Yup. Alright? What good does
holding the hands do? Well, holding the hand means keeping them safe. Holding their hands
and preventing them from being kidnapped, holding them hands means preventing them from being run over by a car. So,
paying attention to your breath is like holding the hands of your mind. It prevents them
from being kidnapped by what we call the hindrances. It prevent them from from, you know, being
drift away and and and going to dark places where you’re not supposed to be because your number one focus is to care
about the person in front of you or to even have a true conversation with someone, right? It’s a beautiful
analogy, Demi. Um and you know, this this whole question of intent and impact, you know,
impact, I think of some kind of like sci-fi movie or you know, the next disaster is going to be some kind of object from
outer space causing some kind of impact but no, it’s our impact makes it a huge but
since this has asked us anything, there’s two questions I that that are at least at the
forefront here that I have is, and I wrote this down because I
felt it was important enough to, to, to write it down. Um, you know, how can we control
how one impacts another? How can one control how one impacts
another. Um, and I’ll just, I, I, I, maybe I can answer that later, But then also, just,
just to clear up, you know what is intent. So, when we talk about intent and and the
Buddhist teachings, it’s you know, the four noble truth, the eight noble path. Second one is
and it it’s awful ahoffen. Instead of awful. Or maybe it’s awful too depending on what we
do with it, right? Uh intent, resolve, aspiration,
motivation, and I like attitude. You know, and and the
answers to that are something like, you know, relinquish went letting go, freedom from ill will, and harmlessness. and
going back to Lydia’s thing. So, this is where it all starts for me is the non-harming. So,
if somebody goes to give you a hug and they don’t even ask you if they can hug, you know, unless you’ve been doing it,
you know, for ages and it just, it just happened or something but if you go to give somebody a hug and don’t ask them, well,
then, you’re encroaching on them without their permission, right? So, we’re not we don’t
know how we’re going to affect others. You know, I mean, it could it could change their day and help brighten them but it
can also trigger a trauma response. So, it’s just a common courtesy to ask
permission especially the first time with something like that, right? I mean, some people don’t like shaking hands and that’s okay, right? I I think
the key is is is don’t assume. I mean, we all we all said that assume, you know, it has to
ask, has the word asked written in it and I I read an article. It was actually a very
interesting article. It it’s it’s written by someone who’s a clinical psychiatrist who
happened to be a veteran as well and actually had suffer PTSD himself and and the title
of the of the article was you know, think before you say thank you for your service. and
what he said is that people don’t really understand the trauma, the the suffering that
that our veterans suffer because it’s not what you think. Because what they
suffered the most is a sense of betrayal. They feel betrayal by
the by the by the senior officers. They sent they felt betrayal by the military. They
feel betrayal by the government. betrayal by even us, the people And by just, you
know, without even thinking about and just, you know, if you meet somebody in the street, meet somebody on the bus and just say thank you for
your service. It actually trivialized their their commitment and their contribution. Yeah, and that, I
mean, that goes into a whole other conversation into the area potentially of like microaggressions,
microaggressions are like people that are saying things that it’s a it’s a form, it’s a small form of aggression that
the the person like the person who’s doing it, doesn’t notice, because culturally, they haven’t been taught, or
there’s, they’re living in ignorance, like, full on conscious ignoring it or they don’t understand that there’s
certain phrases, there’s certain actions that from one culture to another, is really
insulting or where and you know, growing up overseas myself, I’ve seen that, where
cultures are very different. Oh, yeah. You know, I was been saying the other day that I
grew up in West Africa, and time, noone was ever on time to anything, but that was fine.
And then I moved, came back to the states in high school and when I was late to something,
it was considered an insult and very rude to the person or to the group of people, you know? Mm hmm. And it was a big shock
as a teenager and still continues to be something that I deal with because I was
conditioned to be like, if we decide to get up and go, cool
but if we show up an hour late, we’ve showed up and that’s great or if we show up three hours late or if we start two hours late, like, there wasn’t
a sense of like time anxiety in
a sense and it was very hard, I think, as, like, Americans going to West Africa to adjust
to, but then we got adjusted, and then it was like hard to come back. And so it’s interesting, like, when even my
intention would never be to be rude to someone, or disrespectful, but if I show up
late, that’s what it’s considered, and so I have to consider culturally, what is my impact, how do my actions
impact this other person, in a way that I might not ever receive that level of impact. I
might not understand if someone did that to me, it’d be no big deal or whatever, you know, and so, I think, it’s been a
blessing for me to, to, to travel, to be in different cultures, which I think is one of the amazing things about
travel, because you get to really understand that everyone comes from such different perspectives, and it has so
much to do with their upbringing, their culture, their family dynamics, and we’re all interpreting the world very differently. And we,
we’re get to respect each other through that and we get to we get to then honor is this
something that I can respect or is this a boundary that’s causing me or someone else I know harm that I have to stand up to or shift or you know. Um.
I I I thought you were going to mention Michael aggression in a
different culture in the context of gender. In the context of how men and women
interact. Because it’s very different in Africa. I assume it’s definitely very different
in Asia. And I I’m actually the worst offender of that And
where I I come from a a more of a traditional male dominated
society. Where man is
is expected to be somewhat aggressive. Especially for Mia who’s the number one son. Yeah.
This is you know we have to like carry that that responsibility on the shoulder.
And for me it actually just became worse as I became a
professor and then an entrepreneur and all that. And that that becomes my entire persona is to be that real
aggressive or a certain in the way I speak. Um
but the society has changed and I haven’t changed with it and I often have problem dealing with
what it’s obviously my co-aggression. If if you look at it from the other way. Now
this this was this has become a problem when before the
pandemic I signed up to volunteer in the prison. And
after the first meeting the the lead of the group who happens to be a female As we’re walking
out of prison. He said Danny can I speak with you? He said sure. And I knew what’s going to come. I said, is this
going to hurt? And she said, hello, just a little And and she basically says, well, you
speak light, you lecture. I said, yes.
and I she didn’t use the word but what she said is that you are too aggressive. You’re
you’re this is not even this is beyond men and women now, even though I was the only male
member of a predominantly female volunteer group, but the
idea of aggressor and, and, and, and, what’s the opposite of that? Um, is something that
we want to overcome in the prison system, is that the inmate are are are so used to,
you know, being on the receiving end of aggression. That we actually have to
overcompensate. And so, it was a shock to me. It was absolutely a shock to me that
someone basically accused me of being a a microaggressor. Hm.
Just by the way I think I was speaking normally which is I would make a point. But it
wasn’t and so she actually said no next time you speak you use the word I. This comes back to
my question, right? How we how can I control how I impact
another? You know? It’s It’s very tough. It’s very tough. Cuz I can’t hear anybody
else’s. It’s very tough because it comes from it comes from the culture. It comes from it comes
from it’s just you know of that. I want to interrupt if
that’s okay. You notice I stopped. No more aggression for me. Um because I would say even
the even the way so many times the answers we look for are completely determined by the
question we’re asking. So I would say what if we change that question instead of how do
I control my impact? How can I understand my influence? How
can I be present enough in the moment and fluid and adaptable enough in my own integrity and
ability to be present with someone? Where I can Tune in as quickly as possible to the
impact I’m having, to the influence which gives me that fluidity in the moment to because I, I fully believe that
truth is something that evolves as we evolve, you know, and I heard, I think it was in the
book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad and the author described intelligence, the definition of
intelligence is the ability to make finer and finer distinctions. And so you could see that in, like, gender
identity, moving from binary to much more fluid things on the
spectrum. Neurotypical to going into the neurodivergent spectrum. Like going from black
and white to allowing gray or I call it rainbows. Why are we thinking gray? Why don’t we think of the rainbows? All the
colors on the spectrum to allow there to be more fluidity in how in our ability to perceive.
Because so many of us are conditioned and we come at things with like this is a belief now confirmation bias,
my life has shown me this is true. So now, I don’t have to question it. I can log it away as an automatic thing and then,
if it’s ever triggered, or defended against, or there’s resistance, there’s a, there’s kind of a resistance that comes
up, or, like, you spoke to, Denny, like an ego hit of like, a surprise or shock of like,
what? That was, that, what, you know, where there’s some sort of maybe little harm caused or
big harm, that we are unawa of because we didn’t have any association with a belief or
repeated pattern causing harm in the past or noticing or seeing it and I I think when
you said, how do we control it? I was like, I thought of, I think I’ve talked in past
sessions about this theory called polyvagal theory, which is the ability to move fluently between states and our nervous
system. Lydia asked, I, I, I asked how can we control
another’s response? You know, how, so the question again is, how can one control how one
impacts another? So, how can I control how Impact you. Well,
why would you want to control? That’s what I would ask. That is whatever I say, I don’t have
any control of how you, how anyone’s going to. Josh, if I may, if I control another, how
and how about we don’t usually, right? How about we don’t usually go over that? So, I
also have to allow myself the freedom to be how I am instead of on on guard. This is just
for me to be on guard and defensive all the time thinking I’m under constant which, you
know, it may be the case for some people but this also, for me, has to be buffered with
non-harming and knowing that I have to correct and adjust myself from the feedback I get
that if I am causing harm, well, then, that’s how I know how to adjust my behavior and
my speech but as far as anybody else receiving what I say, I I can’t control how I’m going to
be perceived. And I want to, I want to say, I disagree. From the perspective of the, of
polyvegal theory. The ability to tune in to where we are in our nervous system. It has a
direct impact on someone else’s nervous system interpreting us as safe or dangerous. Threat,
safe, threat, safe. So when we are mostly looking visually
without noticing here. Our expression here is one of the first things we look for
according to this theory to notice whether someone’s safe or a threat. Then, we’re at the
eyebrows and the expression of the eyes. Women, so many times, me included, are looking for
kind eyes. Because kind eyes equals safe. It means open emotionally. It means the ability to process emotion. It
means the ability to be present with someone. And that’s the in the ventral vagal system. Which
is the ability to have a calm, resilience in taking in and
adapting and engaging to others. A tilted head is a sign of engaging with someone in
conversation. You see that in dogs all the time. They tell their head when you’re talking to them. That’s actually a biological sign of I’m listening. Our middle ear is
related to our nervous system and fight-or-flight response. So, the tones of what the tone of someone, you know, that’s
brought up, that brings up a lot of conflict in between people, your tone, right? And it’s because our nervous system
is listening to the tone of someone else before the words to notice, is this a threatening tone or is this a
safe tone? So, there’s so many things that we can tune into If
I’m doing this, I’m not as open emotionally as when my chest is open, my shoulders are relaxed.
So, I can just tune in to, am I sending signals of or safety to someone or disengaged or
present we all are responsible for our own response, of course. So, we get to, what,
one of the things I teach clients is, you get to first tune in to what you’re responsible for, that
eventually allows you to distinguish what you’re not responsible for. But until you
know what you’re responsible for, you either take on all the blame or you give all the blame. And I mean, this is a
very, like, cliche, like simplistic way of explaining it. But as we start to tune in
to what is my impact, how am I, what signals am I putting out nonverbally, verbally? Am I
talking really fast? Am I talking really slow? You know, like, noticing that kind of
thing, how am I feeling? Are my shoulders hunched? Oh, I’m noticing. Am I tired or do I just not really want to be in this conversation right now? We
can tune in to our body and what it’s communicating to us.
And that’s, that’s the level of influence and control we have. The way some else responds to
us, we can use it as a mirror and or it gets to be like they’re going into a trauma
response, that’s not on me. Now, I’m going to put, now I’m going to have to put up a boundary or I love you but you
really need to go to a therapist about that issue. I can’t process that with you or I’m glad you brought that up. I
don’t appreciate the way you brought it up. You know, like, we get to then have boundaries and like, communicate and we
each have our own karma and our own process of how we’re playing things out but we get
to notice where’s my influence rather than the whole defense
of like being feeling like I’m going to be attacked, if I act wrong, that’s a fight-or-flight
response. So, that’s in some ways, a form of disregulation in the body. That’s not
necessarily negative. It’s just a state that you get to notice. When I’m calm, I don’t care how
people react to me. When I’m a little bit anxious or off balance, I am immediately I
immediately feel like they’re responsible for how I should
feel subconsciously. Mm-hmm. And so, I’m dependent on their response for how I feel. versus
when I’m calm or resilient or strong, I can hold space and
have a really tough conversation, they can have emotion, it really doesn’t affect me, or it might affect
me, but I can communicate very clearly and articulately, that was really hurtful without going into, like, big emotion
or escalating. you know? So, that would be my take of the question Where. No, it is. It’s
interesting. It’s interesting, Lydia. I was listening very carefully to what you said. You
you put everything in a very clear and analytical way of how to read someone. Now, this this
is actually how we used to do it in sales. I I used to run my own business and I used to
teach, train myself when to read the customer. Now, now, this is many many decades ago.
So, typically, customers are male and then secretaries are female and the I used to teach
how my salesman to read the secretary because Mayo has a
Mayo is much harder to read. The male facial expression is much harder to read. Female
expression is very easy to read and so, if you want to know how how difficult it is to deal
with this customer, just spend time, you know, observing the secretary. And so I I used to
teach my my salesman to absolutely focus on the facial,
the upper part of the customer because this tells you everything. It’s exactly like you said, that just eyebrow up,
eyebrow down, and little subtleties, you know, is is the customer listening to you or is
he just just or does he just want to finish lunch and get out? It’s fascinating, you
know, all these stuff. Some people are more visual. So, that’s. No, let me, let me, let me go back to the title of the
today’s discussion and if I may, I, I, I, you my
interpretation of of of what I think we like to talk about which is even the word the the
wording is intention over I mean impact over intention. Now
I I think we we are speaking to a very tiny population of
people. People who actually care about their impact. Who actually has the best intention
and but for some one reason another, the impact is not
consistent with intention. These are people who are who are in the caregiving business,
who are in the spiritual training business who are spiritual practitioner
themselves who who care a great deal about impact who thinks that just because we have the
right intention that necessarily lead to the right impact and I think what we’re trying to say here is that
that’s not always the case and one has to be super careful so
that even just to understand that even you have the bad intention, the impact might not be consistent. Now, so I wanted
to answer Josh question in a different
way which is I I like to replace the word control with
facilitation. How do I facilitate your interaction so that the impact is consistent
with my intention. Now, I want to bring it back to now
here we always talking about like one-on-one, you know, eyeball to eyeball type interaction. Now, there’s a
whole lot of interaction that outside of that, text messaging, Email, Now, now, you
notice that you know, I’m an old guy so I I I can remember
how I can remember how internet was invented. It was invented UCLA. I was a teacher there.
We’re one of the first people who got Email. You know, we we used to be able to get URL for free as many as you want.
Anyway, the point is when when we started to have Email and
then later on text messenger, things got out of hand. Things got out of hand. you know, when
you when you put your intention down on paper, ninety-nine,
almost 1 00 time, a00, the intention would be somewhere else. You know, that that was like, it was a disaster and of
course, we facilitate that by inventing emoji. Emoji was a
facilitator. Now, you know, of course it it has all the shortcoming as well but at least, right? If I say thank
you and then I put a little, you know, heart and you know, you know my intention, you know? And so, so, so, in that
case, the emoji is the facilit is the great facilitator featuring Intention and Impact.
The question is, what are the facilitator? Now, now we, you know, now we’re back to back to the future. Now, we’re back to
kind of face-to-face, hang on, you know, solid within, you
know, short distance kind of interaction. The question I have is that, what are the
facilitators? What can’t be the facilitator? And of course, we’re not going to put up
emoji, right? So, so I let me propose too. And this is again
from my from my sales experience. And this is how how I train salesman again. In fact
it’s not even training. It’s it’s screening. You know if I interview someone and I look
for that and they if they don’t have those two skills, I most likely I would not hire them. The first skill is how to stop
when someone is talking. And so, I would have a conversation
with someone, a potential salesman that I want to hire, even maybe even a junior executive or something. Someone
that I I want to bring into the team that is going to be building block of what I do and
I would have a conversation. We’ll go out. We’ll have lunch. We might even have a beer or
two and then and then I will ask the question and the other person would would would talk and then as soon as he talk, I
talk. You know, I just jump right in and talk and so, there could be one or three
responses. One is that they keep talking. They didn’t even know that you talk. Two, is that they keep talking anyway.
Because they just want to finish the sentence. And the and the one that I’m looking for is the one that will stop
right away. As soon you talk, they stop. And I think this is a very good, very, very
important facilitator that when you’re speaking with someone and as soon as the other person
talk, you stop talking and you listen. And then the other person might stop and then you can continue, right? I I’m
proposing that. The other one that I’m proposing that is that
your response should always be initially positive. Even if the
other guy is full of **** you say, you know, you got a point there. I got that. Can I add
some to this? And and this is
the a facilitator. This is a facilitator that you know because otherwise the person
would say something and then you would say something. And then and then all of a sudden I
think some of the things you said earlier Lydia is that Austin you get into this vicious cycle. Is is the it’s
the it’s all but all the energy you know working in the wrong way. Right? And when I was in
business in the beginning I I I had such a difficulty making their from academia to to
business until I finally hire someone who’s my number two and he’s a he’s a great teacher.
And the thing that he said was very simple. He said Denny answered the damn question.
In other words, a lot of times people ask you a question Just
answer it already. You know, just answer the damn question.
Before you go off and you know, and talk about everything else because what happened is that this is the case where intent
in in in impact is is in contradiction because you might have the best intention but
just because you didn’t answer the question the right way and you keep the other side hanging, all of a sudden, they
think that you’re disrespectful or you know, all of a sudden, they’re they have spaces where their minds is going in the wrong place and then and then
the impact is not what you expect it. So, I’m I’m just suggesting that. So, I guess on
this interesting approaches there, Denny. Um I I I still
kind of unclear on what we’re actually gauging impact on. Are we just talking about emotions here? Um how what the emotional
response is? I mean, that’s okay but do we mean so, I I
guess I’m still unclear of what we mean by impact and what we mean by intention. Um. Well,
let’s let’s go back to what leader said. He said, if she’s calm, nothing matters. So, I think we’re talking about
heroin? No. No. No. No. No. No. I’m talking about the case where as a as a as a
facilitator, as a caregiver, you’re trying to help someone.
and you have the best intention And guess what? The impact is
not what you expected. No, I I may actually be worse, right? That’s what we’re talking about here. Yeah. Right? So, this is
where I love investigating our own intent because you know, what is intent? Why do some people seem to have more agency
to affect reality than others, right? And so, just a simple question like from a teacher,
another teacher I have. So, you know, why are you going to the store? Okay. Well, I want to
buy groceries. Well, why do you want to buy groceries? Well, because I want to feed myself and my family. Well, why do you
feed yourself and your family. Well, because you know, it is because I want them to be
nourished and fed. Well, why do you want them to be nourished and fed? Well, because I care about them. I want what’s best
for them. Well, why do you care about them? Why do you want what’s best for them? Because that’s what I want for myself.
Well, why? You know, I just layer and and so, you get down to this core question I have is what is the heart’s deepest
intent? You know, what is our the heart of our hearts deepest
intent, you know? And it’s I love this. It’s a beautiful question for reflection and it
it to me it all boils down to not it starts and ends with non-harming because all these
other ideas we have, some of them are very helpful. Some of them maybe we might change our mind on them but to me, if I
strip things down to core values, non-harming is is, you know, at the key. So, and yeah
and even though we might not intend to harm someone, because of my level of consciousness,
right? Might not be there. So, that’s why I care about non-harming and committing to it. So, then, when I get
feedback that that that something is harmful, well, then, I course correct and just behavior, right? I think that’s
I think that’s right. I think Josh, I think that’s right. I I think that’s a very good point, non-harming. So, let me go back
to to to TikTok again and again, it’s because lately, I’ve been just catching up on
his interview. So, so just now, before the show, I was watching
an old one where he was being interviewed at Stanford and to interview her is a very famous
medical doctor and so, and he self is a is a is a healer of
course so so he spent, you know, quite a few minutes talking about how wonderful it
is to have a speaker today and you know, giving all the background and all that and then he eventually says, well,
I I’m sure you guys didn’t come here to listen to me. So, let me turn the table over to our
guest today and so all the attentions want to take. Tay and look at the the he says so
what’s the question? and I I paused and I went to my and my
daughter and I were watching together. I said, that’s Buddha talking. You know, Buddha has
this thing about how he doesn’t give talks on Dharma uninvited.
Perhaps to answer your question, Josh, is about non-harming is that if if
deeper, if a deeper’s intent is not harming, then, perhaps, we have to build on being invited
first. Oh, I learned this the hard way, doing out wisdom when it wasn’t requested. Oh, do not
do that job. And you know, non-harming as a it’s if it you
know what as someone who’s been on both ends of that given unsolicited advice or receiving
it, being the receiver, it it it kind of feels like in a front. Because so many times
when you’re wanting connection to someone, and they give you
advice, what it feels like, is you need me to be happy again,
so you can feel better right now. You need fix this for you and it has nothing to do with
me. So, immediately, as the receiving end, just as this personal experience, it feels like you’re not tuning in,
you’re afraid of my emotion in this moment. You can’t just sit here and you feel threatened by
the situation and now, I don’t feel safe with you ‘cuz you somehow don’t feel safe or need this to be different. So, I’m
not allowed to be who I am right now. So, there’s there’s like this very and obviously
depending on what the person is feeling has everything to do with the narratives and their belief system or traumas or whatever, you know what I mean?
Like, that spoke to things that I have dealt with and around. and I wanted to kind of touch
on what both of you were saying. There’s a book that I highly recommend though I
want to say, if you’re listening to the audiobook, The Tone the author comes across as
a little bit like assholey. If you can get past that, the content is very good and it’s
called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss written by a retired FBI hostage negotiator and it’s
about negotiating in like any area of life and one of the things that he learned working
in the FBI when it was like not doing anything for the world and then, they finally started having breakthroughs about how
to actually create change in a positive, good way, was he had
this light bulb moment at some point in his life where the
hostage takers or whatever, the negative people on the other side, our main human desire is
to be heard and understood. If we’re those, we don’t care if
someone agrees with us. We just want to be heard and seen and we want to be understood. Those are the two greatest
facilitators. You do not have to agree with anyone. You just get to repeat back and mirror what they said. You just get to show that you’ve stood and you
do not have to agree and I learned and I even talked to my dad about this recently about
how somehow we learned and he agreed because he felt like similar. We somehow learned
that empathy meant agreeing with the person and so in
conflict, we kind of kept empathy close instead of extending it because it felt like we were invalidating our
reality to try to make someone else feel better. Turns out that’s not actually what empathy is. empathy is I’m
going to come across the aisle to show you, I understand the impact of this on you. and I’m
putting like putting myself in your shoes for a second. So, you, so, I, instead of person
to person, like attack mode, I’m coming over here standing and looking in the same direction, then, I’ll come
back, we can still have a discussion or conflict or whatever, but just for a moment, I’m going to show you,
I have the ability to come over here and take the same posture, look in the same direction,
tune in to the same feelings, I think that’s one of the hardest things we have to do, and
profoundly rewarding to the point where I even told a sister one time about this book. I was like pumped out.
Like everyone needs to read this book. And I was like one of the things you can do is just repeat the last three
words someone says. Like if that’s the only capacity you have to like mirror. You know if you don’t have a big attention span. And she said
something and then I repeated the last three words to her and she’s like yeah you get me. And I was like see what I just did
there? And she’s like oh my gosh. Like I I told her I was going to do it. I did it. It immediately worked. She felt
sick. She like calmed down. She like felt totally like I was present and all I did was like
say the last three words to her. When we hear our own name, when we hear our own words spoken back to us. So,
obviously that book excites me. I mean, you know, you can take those kind of skills and use
them for good or bad. So, that’s where integrity comes in. But that when you were both
talking, I was like, that has allowed me ways to open doors
of non-harm when I’m feeling very escalated and want to just push back or stay in the
conflic or you know. Okay. Like it’s a movement of. Yeah. And
we never have amazing. That that was that was absolutely amazing. Lydia, in case you, you, in case you’re looking to
to a change in a career and you’re looking to make hundred times more money than you’re making now. You should try to
be a political consultant for next presidential election because what you just said
explained why half of a fellow Americans elected the other guy. Because they felt that
they were hurt and they felt that they were understood.
Yeah. They not that is not because they’re evil or they’re stupid. It’s just someone
figured out how to actually listen to them, how to speak the words that they want to
speak. To acknowledge their trauma even though they might not. Even though that they might not have a solution even
though they themselves is is actually the polar opposite of who they are Yeah. But just
because noone else hear them or bother to. Yeah. You know. No one speaks their language.
That’s that’s all it is. That’s all it is. Lydia, that was,
that was amazing. Yeah. I really, really thank thank you for that. And now we can ask ourselves, what are the words
we always want to hear from other people that we can tell ourselves? Yeah, like, like, I
mean, you talk about sales. One of the most effective sales tools is saying the person’s name to them In a conversation.
Yes. You know, as soon as your name, you feel safer, you feel recognized, you feel seen just from hearing your own name
spoken to you. Yes. And yes. That’s another trick. That’s another trick that I teach my
salesman. I said, you know, half these bins, these mento bins. Put all the vops in one place. Put all the Peters in
one place. So, as soon as you hear Lydia, Lydia goes into this bin, okay? So, so, just
remember this bin and then now, you remember her name. have to
you have to remember people’s name. You have to call people by their name. You have to look at people in the eyes. And you
have to be totally in tune with the facial expression. And not just the expression but the
orientation. Absolutely. Absolutely. You you you gotta make them feel that you’re
listening to them. And can we make ourselves feel the same way? You know? That we don’t. Yeah. Yet outside validation
from everybody all the time. It’s great. Yeah. Being on the cake. but how do we validate
ourselves and get our own validation? Making ourselves feel like we’re present and showing up for ourselves,
right? Yeah. Here’s another trick. Now, this is for someone, this is, this is, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry,
Josh. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, Josh. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. By the way, Josh, there’s a little bit
of lag time sometimes when you’re talking. So, if either of us interrupt you, it’s sometimes because it sounds like there was a stop, you
know? So, there’s and for anyone listening, there’s a tiny bit of tech. Yeah and I I
think it’s because Josh had like 15 different computers running on the line. Sounds
good to me. I was going to say, I was going to say if if you’re if your livelihood depends on
listening. If you are actually a salesman, carry one of these.
Carry one of these so that when people speak, you write things down even though you write down nonsense. Because that is the,
that is the only way that they can convince people that you are, you actually care about what they say. Well, and I
want to say as as an embodiment coach, I recently found out
that I have ADHD which answers a lot of stuff in my life. Um
specifically, the time management issue. Um and one of the things that I have done
when I have a Zoom call, I let the person know. By the way, I’m going to be taking voracious notes over here on
the side because it allows me to stay in present and intuitive with the person but
I’m taking notes so that at any point, I can glance back and know the information they were talking about. Go right back to
what they said and I I’m a fast hyper so I can I can type the exact words they’re saying
sometimes. When I’m like, oh, that’s important. Let me type that in, bold it, and then, I bring it back and they’re like, yeah, you know, and there’s,
but I wouldn’t necessarily have that capacity if I wasn’t doing that, because I grew up in a
family of five kids, and not everyone had enough, like, we
didn’t all have a the same amount of space for attention to be paid on us. So, we, we
were competing for attention, all the time. With each other, our parents and so we all very
much developed talking over, talking through, like steamrolling a conversation,
interrupting constantly, and had developed these kind of
conditioned responses in our nervous system of, if I don’t get my words out now, I’m never going to be heard, and so,
there’s, there, even still, with certain siblings on the phone, we still deal with, you’re interrupting me, and
there has to, I’ve noticed, for myself, there has to be a level of, I don’t Have to say what
I’m about to say even if I forget it. And I can trust that if it’s important enough, my
psyche will bring it back up. And so it comes back into me tuning into, I can trust myself
to be present. Rather than this needs to happen. So, you know, and I’ve noticed, when I’m
talking, like, faster, and interrupt a few times, and there’s a reminder to stop
interrupting, I’m like, whoa, oh, okay, I’m a little more anxious in my nervous system right now, let me just start feeling my feet on the ground,
wiggling my toes, bringing my breath down. Immediately shifts my intonation, my cadence, and
the conversation usually is better after that. Mm hmm. And my intention might be the same
but everything kind of quiet and the other person immediately. There’s like space for them to hear themselves.
There’s space for me, to hear them. They’re just, it’s like there’s, I’ve, I’ve stopped
cluttering the air with static energy and I just bring it down, you know. Yeah. Actually
here ourselves and we don’t need that outside being to to get things in, you know, and yeah, obviously, Lydia, I mean,
she’s basically speaking for me right there, right? Uh about me interjecting all the time but
you know, it’s then also how do we do this, right? Not necessarily the exact intent or
the exact impact but how are we bringing forth intent? How are we going about reaching an
doing an impact? Not so Much or what but how.
That’s one of the main questions that clients will ask me in a session. How do I get
through with my sister who’s not talking to me? How do I deal with this this indecisiveness? How, how, how,
and I say, it’s actually not about the how. It’s who do you want to be while you’re going through that? Who’s the person
dealing with the conflict? Then, you get to embody, oh, you know what? I’m usually in
conflict. I’m usually acting like an anxious, fearful, avoidant, defensive person. My
values are non-harming, compassionate, firm, and integrity. Okay, how would I approach dealing with a
conflict from a place of calm, compassionate, integrity rather than anxious defensiveness. All
of a sudden, the way you’re embodying a role totally gives
you the how. Like, I don’t need to know what to say, how to say it to the person. I just need
to come into who am, who am I when I’m in conflict with that person And is that who I
want to be? And can I show up differently and see what happens and get curious, you
know? Yeah. So much of our. And I know the more I ask how to something, the more I’m going
into anxiety in my nervous system. So, to me, that has become like a little red flag
of like, you’re going in the wrong direction And people have been like, stop asking how,
just, what do you want? And that frustrates me even more. So, I’ve noticed, what helps me is, what stops me is a part of
me wants to know how. So, I separate myself from the full identity of that question and
then, I go into what else is possible. So, it’s like open-ended creative problem solving and then, where am I
and what do I need right now? Yeah. And then, it helps. I can directly meet my needs. Oh, I
need validation. I’m going to go to the bathroom, stand in front of the mirror, look in my own eyes, and say, I love you and this is okay. You know,
whatever. The follow-up question I would have real quick is, can we do all those
values without having to have a person involved like this? Does there need to be a hard-fast
Josh involved in all this. Can’t there just be action from all those qualities that were just mentioned. I mean, I
think, I think that’s what embodiment is. Are you, are you wanting to embody a human? Are you wanting to embody the
essence of compassion? Are you, you know, like, and I think that gets to be, based on each
person’s creative intuition of how they want to show up, you know? Sometimes, I’m like, am I, am I embodying my soul right
now or am I traumatized human body? And does it matter and do
I want a choice? Do I want one or the other to be more present, you know? And speaks
to this teaching of this not self strategy, right? Does there need to be a hard fast me
involved in just life unfolding, you know, and doing the best we can. Does it, does
it have to be, I’m Josh, this is the way I am, and this is the way I have to do it, and
this is the way I feel best, you know. Me, me, me, I, I, I, this, me, mine. And it’s not
to, it’s not to tear down us at all. It it’s to realize that
for me, which is kind of counterintuitive, ironic. When I let go of that hard fast me,
things aren’t take taken us personally as much. I guess it’s one way to put it. Um
and that’s interesting. Hm I think that’s. I’m not sure.
I’m not sure and I understand your question, Josh. Are you saying that are you saying that
do we, as a, as a, as a practitioner of meditation and
Buddhism, are you saying that is it possible to do all that
without being with people? You’re not saying that, or I’m just interpreting the wrong.
Hm. I think. Interesting. Maybe I don’t know if maybe I if I
can understand it, yours, maybe you’re kind of going into the
the questioning you were doing before, what’s underneath this, what’s underneath this, what’s underneath this, and like, what’s underneath the ego,
what’s underneath my personality? What if I actually let that go and let that be fluid rather than holding on to
a fast, this is me, this is Lydia in this conversation. What if I let go of the concept of Lydia who shows up? And is
that better or is that similar? Is that, is that what I want? Kind of like, almost getting
more curious about the concept of what do I identify with. You know, because I think what I’ve
noticed from my training and research in somatic and trauma therapies is so many of the
parts of our personality we don’t like. Turns out are actually just symptoms of a
dysregulated nervous system due to life stress and trauma over time that has been repeated enough that we now associate
with our personality or other people have associated with our personality that then we thought we had to take on. And what so rewarding because so
many people are like, is it possible to change? Can people change? I don’t know. What’s rewarding is, as we learn to
regulate and come into a space of greater connection to self, whatever the word is we want to
use, we start noticing those were just conditions, responses, and our bodies are constantly shifting and there’s
neuroplasticity, there’s organ plasticity, our bodies have this amazing ability to shift and let go and reform and
reintegrate and
and and to me that’s exciting because a lot of my life I
thought I was doomed because I always interrupted people and
that was just part of my personality or whatever you know, whatever the negative
things are. I was lazy. I was leech and now, it’s like, oh,
okay, those are symptoms of something else. I don’t
necessarily need to know what they are unless I go that direction. Is there anything I
can do to start creating safety in my body? To actually start
moving into a level of maybe that
might feel dis uncomfortable that starts shifting the
behavior pattern to try something new and see what happens. Yeah. Hm. Beautiful. Yeah. Well, we should probably it’s it’s it’s three minutes over over the hour. Um how about we just go around the
table and kind of give a summary of what we learned today. So, if if it’s okay, I I like to go first because I I actually think that I learn a lot. So, back to the title of
today’s talk which is Impact Over Intention. The idea is coming again from a caregiver perspective or a teacher
perspective that we have
certain intention, right? So, in this case, for example,
again, going back to my dad, you know, at one point, he was
diabetic. So, I’m trying to figure out how to change his
diet, change his lifestyle so that we
can, you know, get the diabetic
situation under control and then later on, became dementia
and again, you know, the intention is very clear. This
just this is how what I think is good for you, okay? That’s
an now the impact obviously is not the same you know and and I think what I learned today is that is is something that in a way it’s it’s it’s back to my career as a sales executive
which is customers first. Whoever that you, whoever that you’re working with, they come first. And what they want is really just someone who can listen to them and who can
understand them. And if you could do that, then the impact and your intention would be consistent. If you cannot do that, then irrespective of your intention, you’re not going to get the impact you want. So
that’s, that’s my take. Yeah. Yeah Go ahead. Who who wants to go next? Lydia I mean, the two big things I’m taking away is one, to me, it was very impactful when you talked about
like the salespeople, like, when I start talking, do they stop? Like I said, that has been like a family thing that we’ve conditioned that’s been one of my challenges in how I interact with people,
especially when I’m feeling more anxious, or, and it plays out more in close relationship than professional, I have a little bit more influence in showing up professionally with
clients, and teaching and all that. So, to me, I really, really like that because it has distilled to the easiest, most
of the time, it’s like, stop interrupting, and so, my brain has this connection to something, you’re doing it
wrong, Lydia, you’re bad, but when you’re like, can you just get quiet when some, as soon as
someone stays starts talking, that’s such a neutral thing to practice and observe, and I
know, like, hands down, that’s going to have a positive impact in my life to, to tune into it from like that neutral
observation perspective and start tuning in. So, that one really, I appreciate, because
it’s been one of the challenging things that I’ve dealt with, like, throughout my life, and then, the other one I
forget, so I’ll probably remember when Josh says, whatever your.
Josh? Jimen, oh my goodness. No, I’m dead. It’s it’s lovely. And, you know, guys, I’m just
going to, I guess, my excuse here will be in honor of Tech Not Han, the, the, the master
approach that asking a question in here. So, for most of us,
our final impact is going to be death of the body, right? Now, there’s there’s a few arguments
that are really detailed that I can go into with some people why that might not be the case eventually or something we get,
you know, but for the most of us, our final impact will be
shedding off this body. So, how do we intend to use this
precious short life we have? What is the heart’s deepest intention for this this this
precious life. Yeah. My my answer to that, my answer to
that is what I said before we start the show is drink only the good wine.
And it reminds me now of the other thing I was going to say which is what I I really appreciate that you had said
Josh of the the questioning of what’s under that. What’s under that? What’s under that? What’s under that? What’s under that?
And just almost as a a practice not necessarily to even get to some solution or answer but
just to if I let that question go is there is there another is there a desire that’s deeper?
Is there a desire that’s deeper? Or you know however we want to associate it because a lot of times we’re up here in
the static trying to figure out the answers when the answers are like down here. And we just
let that go. Let that go. Let that go. just start getting deeper, deeper into actually deeper states of presence
because in the deepest state of presence, there is no question, there is no answer, you know. It’s just being.
Integrating Presence 
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