Renowned meditation teacher and author Richard Shankman (co-founder of the Sati Center and guiding teacher at Metta Dharma Foundation) shares insights from over 50 years of practice and 35 years of teaching, diving into the nuances of samatha, samadhi, jhanas, and insight. We explore why meditation is about honoring the process rather than chasing rigid attainments, balancing our natural tendencies as “investigators” versus “marinators,” navigating the role of external vs. inner teachers, moving beyond dogmatic “jhana wars,” and his recent explorations combining traditional retreat environments with medicine work.
[Disclaimer: Just because I engaged the topic of psychedelics here does not mean I’ve taken an ultimate stand on them one way or another. While I’m open to reconsidering and adjustments my current view is that these can be very powerful and (thus) unnecessary for how (my) practice is going and my own time for experimenting with them seems behind me. That said I can’t speak for anyone else with these substances other than it seems one would be wise (for starters) to do plenty of research before consideration; find the proper time, place and facilitation and integration processes]
Connect with Richard Shankman:
• Metta Dharma Foundation: https://mettadharma.org
• Richard’s Samadhi and Jhana Meditation Course mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGvhYLzi4ktIIGZcVNKT6IMdFRpxQOeAw
Chapters
- 00:00 – Introduction & Richard Shankman’s New Course
- 02:58 – An Inclusive, Non-Dogmatic Approach to Meditation
- 07:16 – Process Over Attainment: Practicing Beyond Goals
- 09:44 – The Paradox of Aiming vs. Just Being Present
- 10:46 – Cultivating the Inner Teacher vs. Seeking Guidance
- 16:36 – Embodied Awareness vs. Transcending the Body
- 22:33 – Moving Beyond “Jhana Wars” & Lineage Dogma
- 25:34 – Are You a Meditation “Investigator” or “Marinator”?
- 31:26 – Techniques to Channel Analytical Habit Energy
- 41:02 – Challenging Insight Dogmas: Samadhi as a Complete Path
- 48:28 – Direct Experiential Practice vs. Ancient Beliefs
- 52:14 – Why Samadhi & Jhanas Were Sidelined in the West
- 58:48 – Exploring Psychedelics & Medicines in Dharma Practice
- 01:08:48 – Navigating Territory Beyond Traditional Frameworks
- 01:11:30 – Richard’s Background & Metta Dharma Foundation
- 01:14:02 – The Power of Wholesome Intention & Final Thoughts
Shorts for / from this episode:
- https://youtube.com/shorts/TLDf69Df-3I
- https://youtube.com/shorts/xGbprb8E6M0
- https://youtube.com/shorts/Qx1YrJLXhVA
Our past conversation: https://integratingpresence.com/2025/11/02/breath-light-the-inner-teacher-and-the-vastness-of-samadhi-anapanasati-series-with-richard-shankman/
Audio: Samadhi, Jhanas & Beyond: Intuition, Awakening & Deepening Meditation Practice With Richard Shankman
Ai slightly cleaned up transcript:
Chapter 1: Introduction & Richard Shankman’s New Course
Hey Wholeness, welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and I’m rejoined by Richard Shankman. Richard, how’s it going today?
I’m well and I’m happy to be with you again. Nice to see you again.
Likewise. This definitely makes my day today for sure. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you again because I consider myself maybe a little bit of a meditation nerd and like to talk shop when I can, you know. And yeah, we covered a little bit of ground in our last conversation. I’ll link to that. But so I guess what have you been up to since we talked to you last time? I know you have a course out that I got a chance to check out a little bit and I found it really helpful.
Yeah. Well, that is something that I’ve done. Should I say just a little about it, or—?
Yeah, yeah.
What I want, you know I’ve done, well as you know, the world of meditation is a big world. And it’s taught and practiced—well, first of all, we don’t even all have the same goals, so that’s—and of course that’s a whole big topic because in the dharma, or you could say the Buddhist world, depending on your Buddhist tradition, they may have—what the tradition offers is different goals and it’s not one way. And then how we relate to those goals is going to vary for all of us.
So, and then how we practice can unfold, as you know, on its own in different ways, or we can choose to also steer how the practice—and this is a whole interesting conversation that’s actually I think may have happened since I spoke with you, but I’ve had some experiences working with some students where things were unfolding in certain ways that I thought were quite wonderful, and other teachers were saying, “No, no, no, it’s not supposed to be that”. So, you know, it’s a big world, and then on top of that, just so many ways that meditation practice itself is taught.
So what I wanted to do is—over the years, you know, I’ve taught and put some things out there, but I wanted to try to pull together in an accessible way just the way I wanted to offer. And so I created this video course, and it’s these short little—they’re like five to eight or ten-minute little sections. There’s 27 pieces, so it’s a lot.
And on one part, one part is meditation instructions themselves, from—I’m not getting—I could talk about exactly the style I’m teaching in, but it goes from beginning all the way to really jhana and beyond. So, that’s a whole thing—what do you mean by beyond jhana? And then there’s a second stream that’s interwoven, which is teachings and discussions on the topic of samadhi and jhana. So there’s kind of the teachings and the practice. So I put this together, and that was kind of the motivation of wanting to put it together, and it was really everything I know to do that I consider to be a full and complete—the way I would teach. So that was what it was.
Very good. It’s funny that now I’ve switched to more of a systematic practice and more of the Pa-Auk lineage, but before that, I’d just naturally skip around, and that’s what I did through your course because I didn’t—for whatever reason, I didn’t get to go through it from start to finish. But from what I could tell, what I honed in on, you’re very broad-ranging and diplomatic, right? You show many, many doors, and you don’t say you have to go through this door in this way, you know. You cover a lot of ground and you offer many opportunities about this vast world of samatha practice and samadhi, and how it relates to insight, too. So I really appreciate this kind of diplomatic approach.
Chapter 2: An Inclusive, Non-Dogmatic Approach to Meditation
Well, you know, it’s interesting you phrase—use that word, “diplomatic.” I’ve heard that a lot, or you know, “you’re so inclusive”. And the thing is, I’m not just being kind of a nice guy about it. One of the things I’ve just learned, you know, I’ve been practicing myself for gosh, like 50, 55 years, 56 years—that’s a long time—and I’ve been teaching for probably 35 years. So just—I’m just saying based on that, fortunately I got over the delusion I had early on, of you know, when I was young and knew the least, I was the most opinionated. And I’ve really come to see, it’s—you know, we say, “Oh, it’s not one way,” but it’s really not one way.
And so I do feel like, you know, I’m associated—I get identified as a samadhi and jhana person, and that’s—I understand that from my books and all of that, and I do—there’s no question of the power and the value of that, but—and so when I teach, I am teaching in a way where we do want to move in the direction of deepening all of these wholesome qualities: the samadhi side for sure, it’s so beneficial, and the insight, and the mindfulness, and the heart qualities, and all of these things. No question about it, we want to just—but I’ve really—I have to say, so we want to do—and there are two things.
One is how you do that. Look, I understand teachers who have—I don’t mean this disparagingly in any way—they have what I would call a “one-size-fits-all.” If you want to practice with this teacher, this is what you do. You do this technique. You know, they’re just techniques—we don’t want to make a big deal about it—but and that’s fine because they’re just offering their way, and it clearly worked well for them or they wouldn’t be teaching in that way.
And then you’ll go to another teacher, and it’s almost the opposite, and it’s got to be this other way, and it obviously worked well for them or they wouldn’t be teaching it. So that shows us that it’s a diversity, and the important thing is finding the way that makes the practice—I just, because I know you practice with Pa-Auk, I’ve known personally people who’ve gone—I know somebody who spent two years in the monastery or this retreat center with Pa-Auk and said, “Oh, I never got jhana”. They were getting very powerful concentration, it just didn’t match his particular way. So, and that’s fine.
So, what I’ve come to see is that what’s important is finding the practice that resonates, and that—and I know other teachers may disagree, that’s fine—but that makes it come alive the most. And then we follow that, and we have choice points to either let it reveal itself as it deepens and we follow that, or we may want to steer it in different ways, and there’s ways to do that.
So the way I teach in my course is: how do we help people find what’s the practice—even if you don’t even know, start off with one that just sort of really will catch for you, and it’s like, okay, it’s happened and this is really opening. And then as it’s unfolding, we want to let the present moment teach us, because it’ll reveal, and depending on what’s happening, that informs what to do next, as long as you kind of have an idea of where you’re trying to aim, what’s really going to get us there.
So, I’ve—and I’ll just add one more piece. I’ll even back it up further and—
Chapter 3: Process Over Attainment: Practicing Beyond Goals
—I may be kind of really kind of an outlier in what I’m about to say. I’m hesitant here, but I’m just going to go ahead and say it. I would say all of these qualities we’re developing—the insight, the samadhi, the jhana, and all that—are both a really huge, big deal, important, and somehow at the same time, they’re of no importance whatsoever.
And what I mean by that is I really feel that it’s not about what you attain, it’s just being in the process itself—that the doing of it is the practice. What you get or don’t get—it’s just showing up, engaging, and just working the best you can. Even if nothing—I mean, it’s not like nothing’s ever going to happen. Even if nothing happened, just that you doing it is the full-blast practice. It’s really—and that may be different than somebody who’s saying, “No, no, no, you got to get jhana” or whatever.
It’s a really good reminder, too, that, you know, it’s a spiritual cliche almost to say it’s about the journey and not the destination, but it really is. It really is, you know? And that’s what we have to keep reminding—especially, I think, our Western society where we’re so goal-oriented, you know, and it has to pay off or show results right away, and has to be a clearly defined goal and clearly defined progress. You know, that’s all great and stuff, but the main thing is doing the practice, and like, the process and the journey is really important and not losing sight of that.
Yeah. One thing you said is that—I hope we can get the best of both. As a matter of fact, I think—I’m pretty sure in my course, one of the things I say in the intro to the meditation, I say, “You know, we’re sort of given this advice of sort of two things that seem like they’re opposite,” because you know, you hear these teachers that’ll say we’re not trying to get anywhere or be—and it’s like, well, wait a minute. Aren’t we on a path? Of course we’re trying to get somewhere. And so, we’re trying to do both. We’re trying to get somewhere for sure, no question about it. And the way we do that is—that’s the getting nowhere part—is just being here in the present moment. So if we can bring the best of both, then we still can of course move along a path, of course deepen these qualities, but just also, what’s happening in the present moment? How do we work with that? So I mean, to me, that’s the sweet spot.
And you also speak to another thing here about being comfortable with—
Chapter 4: The Paradox of Aiming vs. Just Being Present
—paradox, because as we do this work—and a lot of spiritual work—we’ll be confronted with these paradoxical things, right? Like, okay, there is no goal, but yes, we need to have a goal, and it’s just—it seems like it’s paradox upon paradox, and being comfortable with that and working with that, and doing that or not resolving, but just kind of holding both of these things together at once.
And for instance, you mentioned kind of this inner teacher, and I—some people might call that intuition, and I just—from my experience, just practicing more, not everybody, but a lot of people, their intuition starts to become developed and becomes more online. So again, it’s another maybe paradoxical thing of when to know that your intuition is sufficient and the inner teacher is online, and when to seek and use an external teacher. You know, for years I thought, “Oh no, I just—that’s too awkward. I don’t know where to start with taking on an external teacher.” But—
Chapter 5: Cultivating the Inner Teacher vs. Seeking Guidance
—now actually, I’ve found so much great benefit in taking on a teacher more formally. And some monastics in some traditions, they don’t really take on lay students, so people are left with lay teachers—different styles.
So yeah, balance.
So yeah, exactly. So how would you kind of advise, or what would you have to say about both developing this inner teacher and intuition, along with taking on an external teacher, too?
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, for both of those, I think—look, we’re always following our—let me just back up here. Some of us have—you know, there can be a downside of listening to our own inner teacher, because we can’t see our own blind spots. So there are things where we think we’re following whatever, and it may end us up in places that probably, maybe didn’t serve us the best, and maybe some external guidance could have. So we’re always—every one of us is always following our own sense.
If you’re choosing not to listen to yourself and just follow a teacher, you’re still making that choice. If you have a strong sense of something and you’re choosing to follow that if someone’s guiding you in a different direction, or you’re not listening to that and going your own way. So whether we get external teachers or not, whether we follow ourselves, we’re all making our best—that’s all anybody is ever doing. There’s nothing else. Everybody, whether they’re aware of it or not, is following their own best choice.
So we do the best we can, all right? And that’s all we can do, and we’re going to bump up against—but that’s part of the learning if we can stay attuned and let life—or you could say, let the—this sounds like a cliche, but let the present moment teach us. And we’ll forget, and sometimes we don’t know, “What is the present moment teaching us? Gee, I don’t know.” That’s all right, we make some choice. You take a step, we get feedback—that’s the learning tools of the earth: action, reaction, and then doing the best we can.
And if we feel totally lost, do we fumble through on our own, do we look for a teacher? I think probably for most of us, a combination in some way: whether it’s formal with a teacher, or you just read their book, or listening to talks, or whatever—however you relate, along with just letting your own inner guidance reveal itself to you. Some combination of that is—whatever balance of that is for all of us.
And look, some people, they know they just don’t relate to teachers at all. Some on the other end of the spectrum are just like, they’re all in, and “I’ve just really given myself over,” and there could be a power there. That has its shadow side, too, because sometimes, you know, you give yourself all over, and you end up not listening to yourself. So we kind of—I don’t want to say fumble through, but we work through, and we need—this is why we need to be not hard on ourselves, to know we’re all sincere and we’re trying to find our way the best we can.
So that’s what I would say. And if you’re drawn to a teacher, I say that’s the thing to listen to. Follow that, because you’re drawn to it. And then, you know, you can put it out there, like, some teachers—and if they don’t want to work with you, I mean, they’ll tell you; it’s not personal or whatever, so we find the way.
Having said that, I do think there is some amazing power of—I talk about the inner teacher or your inner—it’s not an egotistic knowing, but a deeper knowing, if you will, or your inner guidance, or the inner way reveals itself. And more and more, whether you realize it or not, that does come more alive for everyone, and we learn to kind of know, and then we rely on—it’s not like nobody can ever teach us anything. We don’t want to get into hubris like, “Oh no, I know”. But so for sure that’s true, and we need external guidance less and less because we get more experience, we’ve learned, and we kind of know. And at some point, we really don’t need any teachers—you just don’t, you know? And then us teachers are out of business, right? That’s what they say about good therapists, too, right? If they’re really doing their job, they’d put themselves out of business, I guess. But everybody would be—that’s the goal: put yourself out of business.
Of course, and then it all has to be seen and known for each wise one for themselves, right? And that’s the advice the Buddha gave as well. And you know, it speaks to—I think, hopefully this isn’t too cliche or stereotypical, or casting broad nets here, but from what little I’ve interacted with like Asian and Western cultures, it seems like Asian cultures are—they’re kind of more willing, in I don’t know about obedient, but like, the teacher tells them to do something, they do it, you know? Where I mean, I don’t need—either “I don’t need a teacher,” or “I’m too good for that,” or “What’s the point?” I don’t know, I’m just thinking cliches here, but you know what I mean?
And this also feeds into—I think more importantly, though, each way can learn from each other in a way, you know, with more independence, but also more discipline and trust, and then eventually trusting ourselves, or you know, so all that. External trust, internal trust, and pointing out blind spots, all that. But also when, you know, I’ve been told that—
Chapter 6: Embodied Awareness vs. Transcending the Body
—Westerners, you know, where’s their mind? People might point to their head, but in Asia, I hear more towards the heart. And this, you know—so this speaks to, I think, when you’re talking about the samatha practice about full-body awareness and things like that, that you know, we’re so oriented in the West, I think, to view our mind in our head, and even neuroscience, you know, some of them equate it with the physical brain. And that’s pretty much—but like even in Abhidhamma—and maybe we don’t need to go there so much—but they talk about consciousness coming from like a materiality in the heart.
So, I mean, I don’t know if there’s a bridge or a connection there, too, but—and where we start with this orientation as well, and how we perceive this and bridge this. Is there anything to say around this?
You know, I don’t know if I’m the best person to speak—I mean, I hear everything you’re saying, yes, and I totally hear all of that. And so, what’s coming up for me is the way you’re talking about how, you know, not getting too in the head, and how we open up in all ways of experientially more somatic, and I think that’s important and good. And probably—I’m not sure what I’m about to say, but my sense is, for some of us, that whole way that you just articulated very nicely is probably very important and helpful to hold those kinds of—and reflect, and kind of just get more awareness around places that don’t serve us as well, and how that might open us up in whole other ways. So we want to include that way you’re just talking about.
Of course, I tend not to think about that so much. I just have a whole another way that I view and talk about and relate to life, existence, dharma, enlightenment, liberation, everything, in just a different way. So I haven’t really—I’m probably not the best person to tease that apart.
Let’s put it in this sense, because in your course, you talk about like, at some point you might—there’s about an embodied attention, right? Or then, but then there’s also a route where it can kind of let go of the body, and it can be more mind-based, or like things of light and not so embodied.
Yes, so yeah. And what’s interesting with this kasina practice for me, with this earth kasina—should I put this—sometimes the kasina will expand so much that it encompasses the body. So it’s kind of like a both/and, or neither/nor, where the body is kind of included in some sense, but it’s almost like merged with the kasina object internally that it’s not really—it’s relevant and it’s not at the same time. I don’t know how to put this, you know what I mean? So it includes the body, but goes beyond the body.
Yeah. Well, but that’s interesting. So yeah.
So the way you’re speaking, and you’re bringing—your practice happens to be around kasinas, so you’re working with that. But I think for any way you work, it can be—well, what I’m about to say is a little artificial way of speaking, but just as a way of speaking, there can be a way where you sort of—you kind of said this experientially—like the sense of the body is dropped away. You kind of go beyond the body or something, and it can go into purely—call them mental realms, spiritual realms—whatever the experience is, and any connection with what we call the body is sort of gone.
And that’s one way, and then there’s another way in which it’s sort of through the body, where it’s very embodied, but the experience of—actually, this is similar to what you’d find in just the traditional in the Pali jhana definitions, where you get into the deeper jhanas and really the experience of the body is just pure light, pure consciousness. It’s still body, but then the sense that the body can dissolve into what? Pure vibration, pure light, and through there it kind of transcends the body. So one leaves the body, and one goes through the body.
And you know, this is another—this is a great example of, on its own, if you didn’t—assuming people had a practice that helps them deepen their samadhi, whatever that is, it was working for them—if nobody told them anything and they stayed with it, it would on its own go in one of these two directions, and you could steer it in the other direction if you know when and how to do it. So that’s where—that’s a whole another thing, is like if you take it too far, sometimes you have to back out to be able to steer it, but you can steer it.
So you have a lot of choice points, and different teachers will, you know, be very clear that you need—which, fine, I’m not criticizing anyone, but they’ll say, “No, no, you got to…” like Pa-Auk, for example. He’s getting into—I don’t—”mental” is not the right word, but his sense of this Pali word kaya, which means “body” in the suttas, it was clearly talking about the physical body, but in the Visuddhimagga, they’ve changed it to mean the quote “mental body” unquote. So that’s fine, it’s just a different system.
So in there, you’re going into the mental body; in the suttas, you’re going through—I know what I just said is controversial, because the Visuddhimagga people would say, “No, no, no, it’s…” but that’s fine. So, you know, we have these different ways: both how it goes on its own, and then how you may choose to steer it. And for me personally, as I said before, it’s all good. It doesn’t matter. You’re going to be just as enlightened or unenlightened, just as liberated as unliberated if you go one way or the other. It’s not like there’s a magic way that’s better. It’s just like, do those things and see how it goes.
Chapter 7: Moving Beyond “Jhana Wars” & Lineage Dogma
And I totally agree, too. Instead of getting into “Jhana Wars,” I’m like, there’s more benefit to be inclusive and find the common ground, and look at the pros and cons of each way, and to find the commonalities, too.
So, anytime someone’s in a jhana war—you didn’t ask my opinion, but I think I’ll offer it—just get out of there. I mean, not you personally, but I’m speaking to whoever might be listening. It’s just like, let them have it, and they’ll have their opinions; that’s fine. I’m not too—you know me, I won’t very often say people are right or wrong; they’re just offering their way. But one way that they’re wrong is if they just say, “This is the way it is”. It’s just not.
And a lot of times you get these young—what, this monkey practicing what, 10 or 20 years? They’re not even warmed up yet, you know? What, you’ve been practicing 20 years and everything, you’re just a young kid telling us how it is? It’s just not true. I know in my 20s, I knew everything, you know?
Me too. It’s a disease.
Yeah, yeah, it is something. So, you know, I would just say the one exception is if they actually somehow happen to be 100% right. Well, then that’s something else. But, you know, like the historical Buddha said, “I never claimed this until I was absolutely 100% sure,” but we’re so far from that. So yeah, I would definitely agree. I haven’t experienced these like “wars,” but you know, it’s kind of just a term these days.
Excuse me. It was like that back in the day, you know, in the ’70s and ’80s and everything. It was, you know, because people didn’t know. A lot of the scene I’m not connected in, so I don’t really know these days, but I have a sense that people are—they may be very clear about, “This is my way,” but I think as far as right or wrong, I don’t know if you hear that so much. I don’t know in Asia, but here at least in the West, not so much.
It’s funny, I was just talking to a guy earlier today. He’s a Vajrayana practitioner, Tibetan practitioner, and he wants to bring more of this debate, you know, where the Tibetan monks will go like that in front of—you know, and just have—I’m not really interested in arguing, but just kind of more discussions to try to arrive at more and more helpful things. I thought that was an interesting thing.
It could be fun. Maybe that’s—looks like when they’re doing it, it looks whether it does you any good or not, I can’t say, because you got to be careful having opinions about any tradition from someone like me outside the tradition. So I don’t have a real opinion, but you know, it looks like they’re just having fun, you know, and whatever.
I don’t really know either. Yeah, I just thought it was an interesting idea. I don’t have an opinion on it either, really.
Yeah, yeah.
So you did mention, you know, kind of like strengthening your weaknesses. I find that really helpful, too, because just doing this kind of more formal samatha practice in this tradition, you know, I’m just kind of more of an analytical, investigatory type, you know. So—
Chapter 8: Are You a Meditation “Investigator” or “Marinator”?
That’s your natural—that’s your natural inclination.
It just makes me come alive, you know? I have a real respect for trying to arrive and seek truth, you know, and how important that is, and that’s one of my very few convictions, of how important it is to act on credible information, basically. So to use this word—I love it—to “marinate.” So it’s just been a real kind of practice for me, to just let everything go, radically simplify one object over and over again, and finding enjoyment and interest, and not having the mind go off in all different directions exploring things, investigating things, that I can do more naturally, you know, and just marinating in it.
Are you—you may have come to that term on your own, or are you referring to in my course when I say some people are naturally what I call “investigators” and some are naturally “marinators”? And of course we all have parts of both, it’s that whole idea, right?
Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly! And that’s where I got the term from you, but yeah, the experience, of course, I resonate immediately because that’s my experience with this, you know? And just taking up those terms you use, I appreciate those terms, thanks.
Yeah, and it’s interesting because in hearing how you shared for yourself—because there are some people—but like, you sound like you got a nice balance. I’m just saying, from what you said, you tend to be more of an investigator. You didn’t get into all the details of how that can manifest, but whatever that is for you, but also then you can, when, if, and when the time is right, bring in just the marinade, and just let yourself just sort of be in the states.
There are plenty of people, also, for whom they’re really more—everybody does both, but if they wanted to like kind of let go—I don’t want to say “turn off,” that’s a little forceful—but let go of the investigation side, that can be so powerful, and marinate. The mind just doesn’t work that way, because all the things they see and perceive and understand, that’s investigation—it’s just, that’s just going on. But other people can kind of say, “Yeah, okay. Yep, I got that. It’s there, I’m not going to lose it, but for right now, I’m going to let it go”.
And the same thing for the marinators. I’m more of a natural marinator, but I can choose, if I wanted to, to sort of actively bring in sort of discernment, really paying attention, noticing kind of the investigative side. So, but not everybody can do that as easily.
Yeah. Again, it’s the diversity of how we all are.
It is, you know? And I imagine some people that aren’t natural marinators, so to speak, that it takes—you know, it’s a practice to incline the mind in that way, and to start actively doing inquiry, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
The—one of the things when we talk about the body, it just—it’s so fascinating to me that in everyday waking awareness, you know, over the years, it’s not—there’s more of a grayed-out or more of a blending, but usually when I’m in a deep state of meditation and the body starts—we have a different perception or experience of the body compared to just walking around, you know, for the most part, like, or some of us, I would imagine, right? And like, I just—it blows my mind to think, well, why is that? How can I—why is it that when I get really still and train the mind, even focusing on the body, then there’s a whole different experience of it than just walking around in everyday normal consciousness, you know?
See, that’s an investigator.
Yeah, exactly!
And that just comes naturally to me, noticing process.
And you said, “Why is it?” But the point is, you’re noticing. It’s like, “When I’m in this way versus walking around, and what’s going on?” And you’re noticing the difference. You’re noticing process. You’re noticing how your being influences it. You clearly are an investigator.
Well, I agree, but then it gets in—like I say, that gets in the way when I want to sit down and just focus on one object, because the mind still has that momentum, has that habit energy of—and it’s nothing wrong so much to speak, but if I want to train this, you know, unplug and marinate and relax, it just takes more and more time for that investigatory thing to calm down and to go offline, you know what I mean?
Well, for the way you’re describing—and you know, I don’t want to start interviewing you here, but please, it’s up to you—but what the way I’m hearing it is, it sounds like you’re aware of that natural being, more of a natural investigator way, that with time, you are able to have more of the settling out of that to more marinate if you want. So that’s great, and you’ve come to know that, and you learn it, and so you’ve got that ability or skill, so that’s really great.
There are people for whom maybe they don’t either want to or haven’t found the way yet to be able to let go of that side, and actually through them just bringing—I’m not trying to tell you what to do, I’m just naming—there are some people for whom just honoring—not that you’re not honoring, I’m not saying the right thing, but who just—they just, the investigation part just is operating, and everything within that is ways of working that still gets them in deeper samadhi also, and using their natural way. So again, this is great. It just shows the different ways we—
Sure. Well, if you’d like to expand on that, I’d be definitely open to hearing about more of these techniques and abilities, a little bit.
Sure.
Chapter 9: Techniques to Channel Analytical Habit Energy
It’s a little hard because we’re all so different, so if I speak in broad generalities, it may not be that good, because if I was working with someone on a retreat, I would really want to get into like, what’s actually happening? How’s your mind working? What happens when you put… so, but as a very broad and general: when you are present with something, as opposed to spacing out—so it’s really the mindfulness, right? And we’re aware, there can be a sense of—it really takes a couple—see, it takes all these different flavors.
One flavor is: it’s not so much directing your attention, but if you have enough stability and enough presence, that it’s more of a broad, open, inclusive awareness can be resting in, in which the investigative processes are operating, just as the marinators might be in there and they’re not investigating, but they’re still seeing the thoughts moving through like clouds. But it’s the emphasis is on the open awareness, and it can become more of like that kind of a practice. That would be one flavor, but it’s just one flavor.
Another flavor is: it’s more of, not only are you noticing the investigating happening, but there is an actual intending or directing the attention to the knowing. And I would—I don’t know if this is accurate, you’ll know better than me—but like when Pa-Auk has you go through his system and he wants you to have his jhanas and all that, and then you kind of—in his system, you need to back out of the jhanas a little or a lot so you have experiences again. Some of your listeners may not know what that means, but you’re connected with changing experience. He’s really directing your attention on what he calls kalapas, fine particles. He’s got this whole thing, and that’s more of an investigative, but you’re actually taking the power of your investigative mind and directing.
And so there’s a power of directing the attention. And even if you haven’t gotten into samadhi and jhana first, that can, for certain people, be very concentrating, because the act of concentrating—it’s not on one object, so it has to be for the right person. For some people, directing away from just one object is a little too much doing, even though you’re having to concentrate. But for some investigators, directing the attention in these different ways—noticing process and things—actually can be very concentrating. So, it’s different flavors, but that’s just a couple of general thoughts.
Yeah, yeah. The first one I really resonate with, because when the kasina expands on its own, you know, then there’s just so much more space that it’s like, is so inclusive. And then the other things, the tendencies or whatever it is, can just be there, or be in the background, right? And yeah, just to do their own thing without interfering so much, or that, you know, maybe they’ll pump out something decent.
Now, the second one, I maybe will have to ask my teacher or some others about this, because from what I understand, yeah, discerning ultimate materiality, I think, is what it’s called. Usually, unless you’re dry insight—though some switch to dry insight, meaning that they don’t develop the jhanas first—you go into that, it still takes a degree of what’s called access concentration, right? So then, even usually, they do get to the level of access concentration, go through four elements that way, and then eventually that transitions, I think—missing a lot of details here—into eventually discerning these ultimate materiality, fine particles, which you can’t really—materiality can’t be subdivided anymore than this, right?
And so that’s going to—it’s a way, but like, I’m wondering about this, though, that you’re saying: that since it’s kind of more the habitual tendency of the mind to keep applying to all kinds of things, that instead of fighting this tendency to do that—not, I shouldn’t say fighting, but you know what I mean—use your superpower.
Yeah, exactly.
Power, as opposed to apply it. Let me just say this—this may not be what you meant, but I’ve had people who said—it just made me think—who all that discerning, it’s just like a churning, or there’s too much. “I’m noticing this and that, and dang it, just stop, right?” And you’re kind of fighting yourself, but I can understand that. So it could be too agitating. That’s—and then we have to work with that. It could be too much stuff, even though you’re noticing a lot.
And then it’s like, okay, what can we do, like you were talking about, about bringing in some ways to stabilize, simplify, without fighting yourself? So depending on what’s happening, that may be what again the present moment is teaching us. For other people, it’s like, wait a minute, notice what’s happening here. Is it too much churning, or can it be an awareness that’s presenting itself on subtler and subtler levels of how this is all working? And that can be a doorway to opening up our normal way of viewing just this solidity of the body and the mind, and we start to see that it’s just this changing process. And it can actually be quite a doorway into impermanence, change, no-self.
And so, I’m just saying, depending on the person, the same thing can be. So again, we have to see what’s working, and in what ways is it not working.
This is—I don’t claim to be the only one who does what I’m about to say, but this is the way I work, and this is why I did my 27-part video. When I come work with someone, I actually—I do have some sense on some level of what I want them to do, where I want them to head, but I come very open, and really where I come from is: we know I want realization, awakening, enlightenment, and more foundational liberation. So we know I want—and coming to an end of suffering, and all that. So we can hold that in common.
What that looks like then, you have to meet the individual person. And I’ve only come to this as a teacher probably in the last maybe 10 years. Before, I had more set ideas, and it’s just like, “What’s going on? Let’s take a look here, and just like I was saying, here’s how your mind’s working, here’s the ways we can use that, here’s the way we’ll steer it in other ways,” and it has to present itself.
And so I actually am—that’s why people think I’m diplomatic, because I sort of include everything. You have to. If you’re—one last thing, I’ve kind of gotten on a—sorry, it got me going. If you’re a teacher who offers what I said earlier, the “one-size-fits-all”—like a Bhante V or something like that in TWIM—totally great, because we know for some people, it’s going to be very powerful. The problem is, for all the people for whom it won’t work—which will be, it doesn’t matter what he teaches, lots of people it won’t work—they’re left behind, and you can’t do anything for those people. What do you do, just say, “Sorry, go somewhere else”? No, you have to meet them and find their way.
So that’s kind of the way I work, is that each person can deepen samadhi, insight, mindfulness, the heart qualities. Everybody can do it, but you have to help them find their pathway and their doorway, find their key. And that’s the trick.
It’s really well put, and I think even maybe within that, like you’re saying, even within that highly customized approach, there’s some generalities and systemization, but you’re more on the customization part, where maybe like in Pa-Auk and some of the teachers, that hasn’t been so institutionalized yet. There is more emphasis on a method. However, they do meet each individual where they’re at and see where they, you know, can get, but it’s not nearly as flexible.
I’m so glad to hear they’re doing that.
Yes, exactly, I know you are.
In this instance with me, I’m wondering, you know, because that’s where I’m at. It’s like, okay, well, I have this natural tendency. Should it be applied in this other way, too? But I can also see where, okay, you already have that developed somewhat, you know, so I actually need to train, you know, letting that be for a while and building up the other end of the spectrum in order to then make more use of the natural tendency—more stabilization, you know, maybe more narrow focus when it comes to these really high-level discernments, if I wanted to do that.
However, I’m just wondering, you know, like, we only have so much time in this life. So like you mentioned before, some people spend years and years developing, you know, the samadhi or, you know, jhana, and then they don’t get time to apply it to vipassana so much. So, but you know, it just brings up more cans of worms: okay, is that just a FOMO, fear of missing out, or is that good enough, you know? Or like you were talking about, and some teachers do too, of blending, you know, satipatthana together, but then again, then I wonder, is that sufficient or is it too watered down? Should we just go for the big thing, you know?
And so there’s so many questions, and I can see both pros and cons to all these different variations and ways and methods and styles, you know?
You know, this is another area I’ll probably get myself into trouble, but so I’m going to say something. I realize it’s going to be controversial. My intention is not to be controversial, but I hope if someone hears this, before they freak out, let me explain. So, first I’ll drop the thing that’s controversial:
Chapter 10: Challenging Insight Dogmas: Samadhi as a Complete Path
I think we make way too big of a deal about vipassana, about insight. It’s—and I’ll even go, excuse me, I’ll even go further. I think it’s just an article of faith that you have to have insight or vipassana for whatever we’re aiming for in the Theravada Pali Buddhist tradition. Just totally a belief, and 100% a belief.
Now, what do I mean? How can I say that? That’s heresy, you can’t say that! Well, the reason I’m saying that is—let me back up. Of course, I like to sort of say it like that, but I actually do mean that, but I want to include everything that’s in vipassana insight. All of that’s included, 100%.
But when we back up—and depending again, I threw out some words earlier that I used, what, let’s see, I said “enlightenment”. Oh yeah, I said “enlightenment,” realization, awakening, and liberation, right? So I have my own connotations for those words; I don’t use—they’re not all the same thing.
So depending on what we’re aiming for, how those—any of those and any of the ways we mean them—come about is not just one way. You don’t just have to have this vipassana insights into impermanence and change. That’s one way, but I say that samadhi, in all of it—it’s a huge world—what we mean by samadhi is also a full, complete path that includes everything else. And of course, if you start to do samadhi, all the insight stuff comes in and everything; and if you do the insight, of course you have to have some stability, whether you call it samadhi or… so you really can’t separate them out.
So when I shoot my mouth off, kind of, which I do like to do, and say we make too big of a… what I’m really saying is—and it goes back to what you were saying, which you were just kind of talking out loud about, thinking out loud about, “Well, you know, do you want to emphasize on the more on the samadhi side… well, you said samatha side, and then that can come back to the vipassana, or should I do on the…” and you know, there’s only so much time, you know?
And my thought is, what I would say: whatever one chose to go, you’re not going to be—again, this is controversial, but it shouldn’t be controversial—you’re not going to be more enlightened or liber—you might be more—there are certain practices that are going to make you more enlightened than others, there’s no question about that. But from a liberation point of view, you’re not going to be more liberated if you “I did this, but I didn’t do enough of that”. It does not matter. It’s all just formally doing these practices.
You’re going to bump up against yourself, whether we realize it or not. You know, it is interesting, isn’t it? If you put—if someone came on a meditation retreat, I remember a guy just last year came on a retreat with me for his first retreat, and he was shocked. At the end of the retreat, he had a hard retreat—I mean, he did great, but he said, “I didn’t realize I was going to bring myself with me”.
And you know, if you did nothing else but sit quietly, just—you’re going to have to come up against yourself, and all of that, whatever one does, what’s needed to reveal itself will—the purification come, everything come. So, that’s why I say, if one wants to emphasize for… it’s fine, but I think we make too big of a deal about it, because there is this thing of, “Well, concentration’s okay, but the real—you got to have insight”. No, that’s total belief.
And whoever says that does not know. I don’t care if they got a shaved head and robes, and sitting up on the stage, and everybody’s bowing at their feet—they don’t know that. It’s a belief.
Well, you bring up a really a lot of good things or interesting points, or bad things, but I’m going to go to hell realm.
No, no. So, of course I agree. What is that—I forgot who said it, said something like, “All the problems in the world are due to the fact that we can’t sit alone in a room by ourselves for long periods of time”. That quote, forgot who it was.
Yeah, exactly, that is so true. I mean, anybody that’s spent any kind of time, almost any kind of time whatsoever in meditation, can relate to that right away, you know?
So then, I just—to maybe just test this a little bit: what about the historical—and I’m not one way or the other, because, and I forget the formal things, I thought there’s—you know, there are some enlightenment ones where they are dry insight, they don’t do a lot of samadhi, but they have to have some little bit of concentration. But what we’re pointing to, but their minds have just let go so deeply, and the identification of self and creating suffering and clinging has kind of dropped away, but it may be just in a very ordinary daily life kind of way, but they’re profoundly liberated.
Well, that’s right. We talk about sila, samadhi, panna, and that’s really where it’s at, is the ripening of wisdom. And so not everybody needs like the vipassana, I guess, or you know, the total highest levels of samadhi either. It’s all about when—however what they’ve done maybe in past lives, too, have led up—what kind of parami they bring, perhaps. But it is a development of wisdom, however that comes about through samadhi, through inside practices.
I’m just curious now, because you hear these stories: the historical Buddha that had to achieve eighth jhana, you know, or the formless attainments, too. And he said, “Once I came out of it, then I’m back to where I was.” So he said that that wasn’t sufficient. Now, I don’t know if we’re—if we’re being a technicality here, if we’re including we need to go into nirodha-samapatti, because we hear about that attainment beyond eighth jhana, then once come out of that, up to six days, then like, you were able to really discern the wheel of dependent origination, or you know, like so much more clarity and detail. I’ve heard accounts of this, or whatever. So I don’t know if you want to comment on that part, just to maybe push it a little bit.
Well, what do you think about that one? Since I’m already a heretic, let me take that a step further. So, my own practice was immersed in, you know, we talk about Theravada Buddhism or the Buddhism of the Pali Buddhism, and I’ve been in the American insight scene, and of course I’m more of a samadhi person, but you know, just—and I have, that was my practice for decades and decades. I was all in, very identified as a Buddhist, all of that.
I cannot overstate how much gratitude and respect and appreciation I have for the path. I’m saying that to preface, because for me—and this won’t be other people, you know—first of all, I want to say I’m not making any claims for myself. I’ve been practicing a long time, I am pleased with the result, but I don’t, you know, I’m not making any claim or anything.
Chapter 11: Direct Experiential Practice vs. Ancient Beliefs
But first of all, we don’t know the actual—we know the Buddha, the way I think of the Buddha is, the Buddha—depending on your tradition, I’m not talking about the Vajrayana or any of the Mahayana traditions, they got their own thing, but here I talk of the Buddha of the Pali texts. What, look, the Buddha must have had a lot, I don’t think there’s any question about that, really. What was the Buddha’s mind, what did he really… you know, a lot was added as an oral tradition for some number of centuries before it, and people were, you know, stories come in and everything.
We don’t actually know; we do know what we can put into practice now and see the result for ourselves. So that part we can know, around like liberation, non-clinging, and you know, we could go on and on about this. So that part is not a belief; you can actually put things into practice and see the results.
A lot of the other stuff about, “Well, the Buddha said this” and everything—well, the Buddha of the Pali Theravada traditions’ Buddha that we have today, which is a model and an exemplar, is great. We know what it’s saying because we have the text there, so that’s one thing.
I personally don’t—I don’t think about this, I’m not on a campaign to go around… I’ve hardly said this to anybody, but if, you know, it comes up, I don’t mind saying, like, we don’t really know, and so that’s number one. So then, you know, what’s the right way? What’s enough? Did you know he went into this jhana and came out? Maybe that was his experience.
You know, the other thing is the Theravada goes even further: it’s got the Buddha, well, he can psychically know into the lives of all beings. Well, you know what? I can’t, I don’t know. But do you think—not you personally—does one think he actually had direct experiential knowledge into untold billions of beings who’ve ever existed, who exist now, who ever will exist, and all their past lives in the future, and the karmic direction of life? I ain’t buying it. So I don’t know that they say, “This is how it is and how it works for everybody”.
It’s a good point, Richard, and we don’t know. But I will agree, the most important thing here is that this can be what—what we have, we have these texts, and we’re supposed to put them into practice anyway, right? And you know, good luck to anybody that wants to become a sammasambuddha. Good. That’s all I can say. That’s a long, hard road to hoe.
And more power to you if you want to aspire to that, works.
Well yeah, that’s another thing. But like, from what I understand, it’s a selective kind of omnipotence, you know. It’s not like—because he couldn’t discern even a discernible beginning, you know, from what I understand, and so what he could supposedly trace back so many past lives, and so many thought… but there is no infinite, you know, that just because there is no discernible beginning. So of course, you can’t go back all the way. And it was a selective thing of pointing the awareness to something, you know, how we can pay attention to something and then gain information and knowledge and wisdom, and spend time, but then there’s different degrees of that.
So who knows, but you make some decent points there. I think where I want to go from here is more in your specialty here: why do you think that these samadhi teachings, and samatha practice, and jhanas, and just have now started, you know, in relatively recent time in the West, got going? It seemed like they were—would you say they were even suppressed in the West for a long time?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think we might have talked a little bit about this, but I wanted to get your take on why that was. I know I’ve heard some reasons, but I want to get it from you, too.
I don’t know, I don’t know what reasons you might have heard. Definitely back in the earlier days, you know, obviously in the big world of Theravada Buddhism, if we certainly went to Asia, there was all the Pa-Auk, and there was all—there was definitely samadhi, or some people use the term samatha practice, and that was all there.
Chapter 12: Why Samadhi & Jhanas Were Sidelined in the West
But here, kind of in the American scene, for whatever historical reasons, places like IMS and Spirit Rock and all that influence was a heavy, heavy, very influenced by, you know, those early teachers studied with many people, but for whatever reason, it was a Mahasi-side influence. And of course, they came and that’s the way they were teaching.
And look how many centers call themselves “Insight Medit…” Our center, we specifically don’t use the word. We’re called Metta Dharma Foundation; we’re not—we don’t say we’re an insight practice, we’re an “all of the above” practice.
But anyway, so back in the day, the only people I knew were me and Leigh Brasington, and we caught hell. Caught hell! And now everybody’s like, whatever.
So, ahead of your time.
Yes. Well, I don’t know, yes, I like to think we were, but I don’t know, because… but no, but we were more serious about it because people were teaching a way that they were taught, and actually part of the way they were taught was this belief—it’s turned out not to be true at all—that, “Oh, if you do samadhi, you can’t do insight,” and they had this idea of getting narrowly focused. No, none of those turn out to be true at all.
And it doesn’t matter if you’re narrowly focused, that would be perfectly fine. But you actually don’t—the more samadhi you got, you’re more aware of your mind and body than ever. Anybody who develops samadhi knows that it actually enhances insight, but that’s different.
Anyway, well, Pa-Auk gets you in a particular kind of jhana, and it’s a whole another conversation. So they had this belief that you have to do this thing called insight, and that’s fine because that’s the tradition that they are teaching. And so it’s important that they stick in a pure way to the tradition, and that’s their offering, and people got tremendous benefit. So it’s great, but they didn’t know it was a belief that people have. It’s like a blind faith thing, or something like that, of, “Oh, you got to do this one way”.
Now I think people have realized, “We’re still teaching in a certain way, this is our way, but we realize it doesn’t have to only be that way”. I think people have just learned that it could be other ways, too, and that’s just different paths. I don’t really know if that’s accurate, but I like to think that’s what happened.
Well, from yeah, from what I understand, yeah, those centers are primary—I mean, they do have some Ajahn Chah teachings and respect, and teachers have been involved in Ajahn Chah lineages, but for the most part, from what I understand, it is all Mahasi-based. And I can’t talk from experience because I haven’t done a proper Mahasi Sayadaw retreat. I’ve heard some people say it actually can be challenging for some people to unlearn Mahasi-style practice as well.
And when I was at IMS—I don’t talk too much, but—I was allowed to do my jhana practice with my nimitta, even though most of the yogis, there was a few of us that were doing jhana practice there, but so the jhana practice I was doing from the Visuddhimagga, basically, it’s compatible with that. It’s just that most people, I guess, either on the first part of that or whatever, they’re doing kind of whatever they’re doing—the dry insight and the noting—because I haven’t done that, but I was allowed, with a few other people, to do practice, and it was fairly compatible. So it seems like it’s—and I was grateful for that, because I was able to do that in such a… it’s really fascinating to be able to practice in scenarios where that continuity of awareness on one object is able, you know, through pretty much all parts of the day except for sleeping, you know?
I’ve never—really grateful for those conditions, can go really, really deep into practice, and then I have that as a reference that that’s even possible outside of those conditions if I really want to—not that you guess have to, you know? It’s amazing to be able to keep up that level of practice throughout the day.
Clearly, it’s a powerful practice for those for whom—again, I keep repeating that—and also there are other people that I’ve worked with, many, many over the years, who said, “You know, I’ve been doing this kind of vipassana for 20 years, 30 years,” and then they do some samadhi—and again, this isn’t better than the other way, but I’m just saying—also people would say, “Oh my god, the samadhi, it just opened everything up on such a level,” whether it supercharged, super-empowered their vipassana, or great, or they saw the power of just through the samadhi itself, and the clarity, and just the equanimity, and just the purification, everything that happens.
So again, it’s a big world, and karmically, my belief is—this is a belief I have, I don’t… that we all have our sort of karmic trajectory, or the arc of our lives, and as long as we keep a sincere intention and we do the best we can, then it sort of—again, this is a belief I have, but I do believe it—that, you know, what needs to come in the right time comes, whatever that looks like.
It’s a really good point, and that these are totally complementary, like you’re saying, and that if we just—if we’re sincere and we keep practicing, you know, that we are building, as long as the good intention is there and then we’re doing this, it does create outcomes that are beneficial. And that includes, you know, course-correcting if need be, the right people, having the right fruitions come, and yeah, that’s right. And that speaks to the faith, faith and trust in ourselves, and our—the teachings, and our teachers, and things like that, which is really conducive in itself for developing samadhi. So it’s a good feedback loop there, right?
And you talked about breaking through, so before we start wrapping up, we talked a little bit before about this—
Chapter 13: Exploring Psychedelics & Medicines in Dharma Practice
—kind of maybe more new area in dharma practice and samadhi practice, of psychedelics. So why don’t you talk about like, what you’re doing with that, or how that works?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I’m one of these stereotypical… so I’m getting ready for 74, so I was back in the day, when back in the late ’60s and all of that, when, you know, I kind of came of age and all of that. So a lot of the psychedelic things back then, you know, it’s not like it is today when there’s so much more awareness and knowledge, and set and setting, and being appropriate; you just—people were just, we were all, we didn’t know and you got what you got. Sometimes you just had what we’d call psychedelics, sometimes you’d open to the spiritual, just—it was a wild West.
And then actually what moved me: I started meditating in 1970, and it’s a particular tradition, and then in ’72, I think, is when Ram Dass’s book Be Here Now came out, which is a pretty dated book, but it historically is worth a read. And he had been doing all the LSD and was having similar experiences, and I dropped all that stuff, so I hadn’t done any of this stuff until only in the last not-that-many years, I had some opportunities where some people who were actually a particular monastic—I won’t name the names, but came—and I’m surprised that people were sort of doing this, and it sort of brought me back a little into some… I don’t know how much you want to get into the substances or whatever, but I’ve come back into that some.
And after all these years, just strict dharma, I, you know, no—I don’t use any substances, nothing, for like, you know, 40 years or something. So, and it opened up in a lot of ways; I don’t know how much detail you want, I’m just giving a high level of what we—what it was. And I really found it was actually quite powerful, and I thought it worked very well.
Now, you know, I’m not out like partying or that kind of thing, but really with a conscious intention, it brought in on the spiritual side. So that’s come back in. I guess the two things I would say: one is we—I’m kind of leading it, have—are just starting to actually offer… we mostly just offer regular, you know, kind of retreats in the way I speak, teach; they’re just traditional Buddhist dharma, kind of samadhi, kind of jhana retreats.
But also for—it’s just a little kind of hidden away, not that much, but we’ll see how it goes—we’ve actually done some retreats where we bring in certain—I call them medicines. I like to call them medicines; I like the word into the retreat. It’s mostly a meditation; we may start the retreat with a certain medicine, and then the whole rest of the retreat would, you know, nine or 10 days will just be—after that’ll just be… or we might do something in the middle or something.
And I will report that one retreat we did last spring, it was a select group of people I happen to know, because we’re experimenting to see how this works. And I happen to know them very well. On there, not only very experienced meditators, but also had already had some experience with medicine. So I knew—all reported, it was a small group, that it was actually, they went into new territory in their practice that they had never done, and they really thought the combination of the medicines and just regular dharma was actually quite powerful.
So the feedback so far has been good, and if people are interested in that, you know, people will know—you’ll probably tell them how to contact me or whatever—but so we’re doing something. Again, I realize I did—I don’t… I’ll talk about whatever you want, I didn’t get into the details like, what medicines are we using, and how we’re using them, why do I think it’s good. But I see the value of that, even though I’m mostly a dharma… but I do use these myself. I’m not like everyday kind of a thing like that, but here and there I’m bringing them in, and I think there’s a power there, and I expect that this particular hybrid kind of thing may turn into something for people.
Well, if you don’t mind, we could go into it just a little bit. I don’t want to spend too much time because I’m not so familiar, but like years ago, before I even got into the dharma world, meditation world, I listened to a podcast called like Psychedelic Salon or something, with like Terence McKenna and things like this. So are we talking like, what kind of stuff, because I mean, we’ve got really—people call it sacred plant medicine, and I don’t normally talk a lot about this stuff, but I just thought, just because how it could be potentially introduced in the dharma world.
We have really strong ayahuasca, you know, really strong medicine, and iboga. Iboga is another really, really powerful one. I mean, these are strong medicines, but then we have all kinds of other things, too, and we have different doses, right? And we have, like you’re saying, these aren’t used for like a recreational use; we’re not using them for that way, but I just—
We’re very conscious about vetting people, because it’s not for everybody, and first of all, needs to do it, but there’s—it’s not for everybody, but you want to make sure medically, psychologically, it’s appropriate, so we have people who know what they’re doing. That’s not my expertise, but who to make sure it’s done safely and all of that.
So you have—there’s other people that are actually administering and then doing… so like, how does it work, I guess, if you’re willing?
Yeah, like depends on medicine. I can tell you the medicines if you’re interested.
Sure, yeah, if you’d like.
I mean, you know, from a legal point of view, you got to be careful, because we have to also—one of the things is where you hold the retreats, because we want to respect laws. So some things maybe you don’t do in the country, you have to go where it’s legal and that kind of stuff.
The two main… so first of all, the medicines, you know, some people—I will use like psilocybin, like mushrooms and everything, that can be very powerful. We have not used that in this context, but I have found those can be very, very supportive, can be personally supportive, and people use ayahuasca.
We’ve been focusing on two: one is MDMA, and the other is—if you ever heard of 5-MeO-DMT, it’s one of these designer… there’s a PiHKAL and TiHKAL books of these designer psychedelics, I don’t know if it’s… it’s one of these derivations of DMT, right?
Yeah, right.
So 5-MeO is—I won’t… I’ll go as much as you want. It’s actually extremely powerful, but we… so I’ve done it in a very powerful way, where you take a dose and it’s like you blast off. But we do it in a way called a “stepwise protocol,” which is very, very gentle, and there’s a way—we have these vape pens and everything, and just very gentle, step by step. You go in and you stay there for a little bit and say, “Do you want to take another little step? Do you not? Do you want to stop?”
And it’s very safe, and so the access is so user-friendly and gentle, and you can take it. And people have found that not only is the experience itself beneficial in ways I could talk about of dissolving the ego, but in ways that are safe and not scary, but also coming out of it, then people have found that has supercharged their samadhi meditation for weeks afterwards in a real powerful way, which I didn’t expect.
So we use that. The MDMA, for people who don’t know: so these other things, they kind of—they’re transcended, they take you out of yourself. MDMA keeps you very in yourself—I don’t really call it psychedelic—because you’re not, you’re just here, but you just open up in empathy, and love, and interconnection. Not everybody does—that’s a conversation—but that’s what it does. So we use that as a heart opening, and as emerging in love and beauty, which then can open up the heart qualities and then from there bring them.
So we’ve been experimenting with both the 5-MeO and the MDMA. Again, we have to be careful because we want to respect laws. We’re not out there trying to break laws, and where is it legal, you have to—yeah, we have to think it through, but we’ve been thoughtful about how we’re doing it.
I’ve heard that psychiatry is opening up to a lot of these things, too. I have a friend who’s a therapist that does ketamine therapy, too.
Yeah, there you go, there’s another one.
So, and then the PTSD has been treated, I think, with what some people call ecstasy. So, yeah, you know…
Yeah, and this is the first I’ve heard of it being potentially done in dharma circles. And I don’t know if people are doing it like that, like we are. I haven’t heard of it; I know people who are dharma people who might lead psychedelic retreats, but it’s a full-blast psychedelic retreat.
We’re actually doing—the way we do it is, it’s a normal, traditional Buddhist meditation retreat, and then we bring in some of the medicines as a supplement to help it. It’s not—most of your time is actually, you would recognize in any retreat center you went to. So that’s what we’re doing, and we’re still learning, but we’re feeling very pleased with the result.
Like I said before the retreat, there’s a certain—maybe more left-brain practitioner that has been practicing for years and kind of maybe hitting a wall, and you know, I wonder if for certain cases it would—it can help break through, have certain breakthroughs like you’re saying, too, you know? And of course, I appreciate the responsible set and setting, and probably the integration process along with it—medical clearance, psychological/medical clearance, and preparation beforehand and stuff like this.
But yeah, who knows? Maybe—and then this is the early days, so you’re still learning as well, and there’s a lot of vast realms, as you mentioned, that can be accessed with just regular samadhi. So—
Chapter 14: Navigating Territory Beyond Traditional Frameworks
—yeah, you’ll find out what you’ll be blasted into and through, and right… and also, I’ll just say how much this opens up in—it takes you… so it’s a whole big topic, I know you’re… maybe you don’t want to get into it, but I’ll just—potential.
And I talk about this in my course a little bit. I have a little section in there called “Beyond Jhana,” like part two or whatever, when I talk about things can happen that don’t fit in a traditional—at least in the Theravada tradition—a traditional model of what people might think should happen. It doesn’t get talked about so much.
I mean, you mentioned maybe you know people who are talking about getting into other realms, fine, but people really—it’s more… and so one of the things using these medicines, it can open up in ways that I think are very powerful, but may not fit the tradition. That’s another choice point for people. If it’s moving in directions that feel good and right, but maybe… I like to think of it as, we’re not throwing away the Buddhist dharma. We have all of that, but it’s just opening up to include other things that some people may not want to include, that’s all.
Yeah, no, it’s a really good point. And then there’ll be new levels of discernment of what’s helpful, what’s not, you know, what may be intoxicating, what’s not intoxicating, what can be accessed when and not, and how it should be, and what we’re actually experiencing is what it actually is.
Because, you know, this is really going into more of the woo-woo and the other stuff in metaphysics that I’m fascinated with, too, where these certain beings will appear in some ways, but they’re actually cloaked behind—they’re actually something else appearing to be something they’re not. As we know, there’s so much deception in this world, so I don’t know if that stops there, so… but anyway, it’s another opportunity for learning and discernment, too.
It’s a huge world, big world, and big topic.
Yeah. And if I’m not careful how I say it and who I say it to, when it does seem a little bit kooky and crazy, and I understand that, but around other people, it’s their bread and butter and it’s pedestrian. So, huge range even within that.
Yes, exactly.
Said it kind of without saying it, or with a disclaimer, I guess.
Well, with that, Richard, thanks again for taking the time out today. I really enjoyed this.
Again, tell people it’s good to see you. I like hanging out and having interesting discussions, so I appreciate you asking me to come back.
And I really appreciate the elders I can find in this tradition that I really connect with and respect, living tradition, too. So, you know, this Sati—you’re… I thought, are you the Sati Center, or are you involved with…
No longer.
Chapter 15: Richard’s Background & Metta Dharma Foundation
So I’m a co-founder, actually. I had the idea of the…
How about that! Okay.
And I went to Gil Fronsdal and a few others and said, “We…” This was way back, because nowadays there’s so much opportunity for study, but there wasn’t way back then, like 30 years ago. So I was a co-founder of the Sati Center, very, very immersed and involved, and then over the years, my interest has gone just in different directions.
So nowadays, I’m not officially connected with them—it’s not negative, but I’m not connected with them at all anymore. But I still come back on occasion and will teach a daylong, or once a month, you know, a several-week series. So, you know, occasionally if they ask me back, I will, but it’s not my thing.
Our group is Metta Dharma Foundation, or Metta Dharma, and so, you know, we’re—it’s just, yeah. And you can get in touch: it’s mettadharma.org, or is it—remind me again, is two T’s: m-e-t-t-a-d-h-a-r-m-a dot org. And you can see our website will be there, and you know, I’m there, I’m listed as the guiding teacher, but you’ll see that when we do that. And, you know, retreats get listed.
People can also look—I have my own website, just richardshankman.org, and people could go there and find out what’s going on.
And if you’re in the area where you live, you’re still doing regular get-togethers in real life, still?
Yeah, yeah. So in Berkeley here in California, we—this group’s gone on for I don’t know, decades. We have a Wednesday night meditation group, and actually after COVID, as many groups did, we added a Zoom component. So now we get people who show up in person; I’d say half the people come on Zoom. So people can come, you don’t have to live in the Bay Area.
So that’s happening. We still teach, you know, residential retreats a few times a year. We kind of fell away after COVID, but COVID’s been over for a few years, so we’re starting to come back. Our retreat’s coming in the spring, and then we also do other things. COVID also kind of stopped our like once-a-month half-day or daylongs, but we’re starting to bring those back a little. So, you know, we have things we do, and then occasionally other classes, but mostly we have our weekly group and run a few retreats each year. It’s kind of simple.
Well, cool. So, anything else you have in the works you want to mention to folks, and then take us out on a final message?
You know, I don’t know what else to say about… you know, I’m kind of just… if people are interested, I hope they would feel like they at least check out the meditation course. I think if they just listen to the first two intros, you’ll get the idea of what it is, and you’ll know if it’s of interest to you or not.
You know, I don’t know if I have a final interest, but I guess what comes up in my mind, a final message…
Chapter 16: The Power of Wholesome Intention & Final Thoughts
What comes up in my mind is that something that actually we talked about, I think: I really feel that intention is so foundational, probably to everything. And, you know, it can be so easy… you know, it’s amazing how often people judge themselves and their dharma practice, and how much they judge it by how concentrated they are, which is unfortunate.
I’ve been there myself, because it’s the whole—it’s the unhelpful judging, not the discernment kind of judging, and it’s the worst criteria you could possibly fit, because everybody’s just doing the best they can. So I hope people are already doing it, and if not, take some time to reflect on your own good intentions and your good… you know, you wouldn’t be a dharma practitioner… I mean, obviously, you know everything that’s wrong with you—so, not you, but all of us—so we know that, but it doesn’t negate all the good.
And take time to just feel your goodness if you can, and if you can’t, don’t beat yourself up for that. That’s just showing you, “Wow, this is interesting, it’s hard for me to feel my goodness”. There’s an area for you to explore. So, anyway, I’m sorry, you got me going on a little mini dharma talk
That’s beautiful. And even what you just said there shows our goodness too—that we would be willing to even be honest with ourselves to point that out. So that shows such goodness as well. I really love that. So good, good.
So may we all come to find our optimal goodness for ourselves and for each other and for all beings everywhere. May all beings everywhere realize awakening, be free.
Bye, everybody.
