(Ai Assist:) Richard Shankman, author of the seminal book The Experience of Samādhi, gives a deep exploration of mindfulness of breathing (anapana), samadhi, jhana, and the fluid, often misunderstood nature of deep meditative states.
Key Themes Discussed:
- Anapana as a Universal Doorway: Richard shares his 55-year practice rooted in breath meditation, emphasizing its accessibility and capacity to open into vast experiential domains.
- Samadhi: Narrow Path or Infinite Unfolding? Richard challenges rigid interpretations of jhana, distinguishing between exclusive, one-pointed absorption (e.g., Pa-Auk, Visuddhimagga-based) and inclusive, open-awareness jhana (more aligned with sutta descriptions). He stresses that both are valid — different flavors, not depths.
- Jhana Factors & Misinterpretations: A deep dive into vitakka-vicāra — are they “applied & sustained thought” (Visuddhimagga) or “mental movement/investigation” (sutta-based)? Richard cites Pali scholar Peter Skilling to highlight linguistic ambiguity and evolving interpretations over centuries.
- Nimitta, Light, and Divine Experiences: Practitioners may encounter visual nimitta, bodily light, or even divine figures (e.g., Mother Mary) — experiences often dismissed in strict Theravada settings but validated here as authentic openings when met with wisdom.
- Letting Go vs. Clinging to Maps: A central tension: follow the tradition or the living experience? Richard advocates steering with intention while honoring organic unfolding, guided by an inner teacher and supported by external mentorship.
- Thinking Mind in Meditation: Practical advice: don’t fight thoughts. Give gentle preference to the breath, relax deeply, and let mental activity be background noise unless it demands attention (e.g., unresolved emotion).
- Non-Clinging as Liberation: The practice ultimately simplifies into living with awareness, letting go when needed, and opening the heart — a portable, daily dharma beyond retreat halls.
- Forgiveness & Ethical Awakening: Josh shares how embracing the Five Precepts and seeking forgiveness early in practice dramatically reduced remorse and mental agitation.
Tone & Takeaway
Warm, humble, and boldly honest, Richard dismantles dogmatic barriers while honoring tradition. The conversation is a compassionate invitation to trust one’s sincere intention, relax into practice, and remain open to the mystery — whether the path leads to nibbana, divine love, or simple daily presence.
Final Note from Richard:
“Even at your worst, your good intention is still alive. Return to that. You’re doing the best you can.”
0:00 – Show Soundbite: Self-Judgment & Good Intentions
1:11 – Welcome & Guest Intro: Richard Shankman
2:06 – Richard’s 55-Year Breath Practice
3:06 – Richard’s Book on Samadhi
4:15 – Richard’s Background: From Yoga to Theravāda
5:19 – No Longer Identifying as Buddhist
6:38 – Leaving the Raft Behind
7:50 – Anāpānasati Sutta & Breath Practice
9:03 – Narrow vs. Vast Paths in Dharma
12:14 – Divine Light & Mother Mary Experience
14:35 – Goenka vs. Pa-Auk Traditions
18:26 – One-Size-Fits-All vs. Personalized Practice
21:20 – Pa-Auk Jhanas & Nimitta
22:27 – Suta vs. Visuddhimagga Jhanas
30:23 – Narrow Path to Nibbāna vs. Opening to Divine
33:10 – Nibbāna, Deathless & Unfathomable Realities
37:21 – Liberation Through Non-Clinging
41:40 – Breath Practice & Nuts-and-Bolts
43:22 – Nothing to Do, Yet Developing on the Path
45:27 – Clinging, Letting Go & When It Lets Go of Us
47:19 – Jhanas: Exclusive vs. Inclusive Samadhi
52:27 – Why the Confusion Around Jhana Definitions
54:35 – Suttas vs. Visuddhimagga Divergence
57:19 – Vitakka-Vicāra: Two Interpretations
1:04:23 – One Mind, Two Streams in Jhana
1:06:23 – Evolution of Teachings Over Time
1:09:22 – It Doesn’t Matter Which Path—All Lead to Liberation
1:12:17 – Working with Thinking Mind
1:17:21 – Ethics, Remorse & Forgiveness
1:19:53 – Contact & Closing Message
Website: https://metadharma.org — Weekly Zoom group, retreats, and daylongs available
Email: meta@metadharma.org
Book: The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Samadhi-depth-Exploration-Meditation/dp/1590305213
Audio: Breath, Light, The Inner Teacher And The Vastness Of Samadhi | Anapanasati Series With Richard Shankman
Related post: https://integratingpresence.com/2021/05/06/types-of-samadhi-from-early-buddhist-texts
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Show Soundbite: Self-Judgment & Good Intentions
We can be particularly hard on ourselves and judge ourselves by how well or
poorly good or bad we think we’re showing up or doing doing it, whatever the it is. And I understand that, but um
uh you know, how well or poorly we we act in any situation is really that’s just the conditioned patterns of our
minds. That’s what we’re working on is shifting the conditioned patterns. And if when that happens, what I found useful is to um connect back with what
my sincere as a dharma practitioner, my sincere um aspiration or intentions are.
And I’ll bet everyone has a good intention. And you know, whatever your own languaging is of wanting to live in a way that creates less suffering in the
world for yourself, for others, wants to create more well-being for yourself and for others. And if that’s true for you,
even when you’re at your worst, you can still know that you you really do care about that intention and that’s alive
for you. And I find it going back to that somehow and know that still is my good intention and I’m doing the best I
can. We’re all just doing the best I can. And then and then um is helpful so we’re not too hard on ourselves and we
can still stay attuned. Let that intention kind of be bolster us kind of
Welcome & Guest Intro: Richard Shankman
a thing. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and today I have Richard
Shankman with me and hopefully I am containing my enthusiasm or bringing enough equinimity to my enthusiasm
because seriously I I really appreciate this. I’ve been doing exclusively for you know since I’ve practiced every day
since 2012. The last couple years my practice has been exclusive on anapana
around the anapana spot in the Pak tradition. just to give Richard a little bit of background here before I get
going and to make this kind of more real. And I still haven’t gotten imit.
So that’s kind of my bias a little bit, but I am also open to this huge topic on
many levels uh from the text, but we’re going to focus more on practice today. So I’m already jumping into it, but I’ll
throw it back here to Richard and say, Richard, what’s going on today and how are you? Uh well I’m well happy to be
Richard’s 55-Year Breath Practice
with you and um you know my I’ll just say my whole practice has been uh
mindfulness of breathing meditation for well I’ve been 55 years that’s a long
time this is great and I’ve done other practices you know but
really that has been and my experience has been
it just opens up and I think any practice we do can be a doorway
to open into everything you know it’s a it’s a question of finding each person’s
uh best way and so for those for whom mindfulness of breathing in its many
many varieties is a good practice and I think it is probably for
many many people um that um um you know it’s been a doorway kind of to
everything so um really I would that’s been my practice Awesome. I I again I am so overly enthusiastic
Richard’s Book on Samadhi
here. Hopefully it’s it’s balanced somewhat because for those of you probably everybody listening to this
would know that Richard has kind of this seinal book I would say on samadei. Um,
and not only I would say and I and I’m not that familiar actually. I haven’t gone through it in detail, but I would
venture to say it is really comprehensive and very thorough and wide reaching and
at the same time very accessible and and practical as well. And so maybe you
would touch a little bit on this a little bit before we jump right into to Sami and any kind of background. I think
um other than what you said, I think that’s kind of um yeah, before we just jump right in here.
Um well, there was a couple of things. I’m not sure. Perhaps you can guide me. Um um I’m as far as a little background.
Um I mean, you said something about the book and maybe should I just say something about that? That’s kind of how you know me or
Yeah, I I would think so. And of course, your name comes up in Dharma Talks from time to time, especially when people
talk about samadei, you know. Yeah. So the book title in your name comes up here and there, you know. Yeah.
Richard’s Background: From Yoga to Theravāda
Well, you know, I came up so first I’ll just say my original practice actually started in 1970 and I was more in a um
what would you say Hindu oriented yoga traditions. I lived in an ashram and um
actually I was doing mostly breath meditation. It was a different different tradition and different way of just
framing everything. And then it was in um kind of the early or mid70s I I was
still meditating but I ended up more in the Buddhist oriented kind of terravada oriented world and I’ that’s been kind
of my world I’ve sort of lived in uh of course h well having I don’t want to get
us too far off but having said that of course as the practice becomes more and more alive you really end up you’re not
in any tradition anymore. It’s just the aliveness of being and you know where’s
Buddhism that in that. So that’s a that’s a big topic. People might say but wait a minute what do you mean? So but
so to be honest with you that well it’s too late. I have to say now so people
No Longer Identifying as Buddhist
who I work with wouldn’t really know this but I actually don’t identify as a Buddhist anymore. I nobody would know
that. I this is the tradition. It’s the it’s the formulation. It’s the framework. tremendous respect and
gratitude for it. But it in my own self like in in the in just the moment in
just the aliveness of being there’s no you wouldn’t say it’s a Buddhist thing
but we still don’t want to throw the path out too soon right
well yeah you make good points you know even the Buddha said um eventually the d the draft easy for me to say
or the raft right the raft of dhhamma has to be left behind on the further shore right so that’s there’s that and I always tell
people basically the same thing, you know, I don’t consider myself a Buddhist. I study and practice this
primarily right now, you know, but and to me, I don’t even look at Buddhism as a religion anyway. To me, one way to
frame it maybe is um one approach of how to see into the true nature of reality,
the way things actually are. And the best way to go about doing that for my own well-being and for the well-being of
others and especially in the long term. So, I can definitely resonate with this. I think you’re you’re alluding to even
going beyond that as well. Um, of course, let’s not let’s not jump out of the raft too soon.
Leaving the Raft Behind
Yeah. Yeah, I’m still definitely on the raft by all. Also, I want to say uh just I hope just
to clarify, you know, I’m not making I’m not making any claims for myself. I
don’t make any claims. I would say um you know, anyway, I feel like I’m
very appreciative and gratified. um and about what the practice has done and
where it’s kind of done for me and gotten. So, in that way, uh it’s been
great. And I’m not making any I don’t make claims about it in any way. I just want and I’m that’s not me. I’m not
that’s not code for I really am making claims, but I’m too humble to say it. I
mean, for real. Yeah. No, it’s a good point. And I I I’m heavy with disclaimers myself a lot of
times. So it is is really helpful that you know and I’ll just say right now
this is of course it should be obvious but this is my current understanding where I’m at now. I’m open to you know
being completely wrong with everything and and moving beyond that. But for right now this is the the the best I’m
able and you know accessible. So so let’s jump in here. the the anopana. I guess we can um reference maybe the
Anāpānasati Sutta & Breath Practice
anopanana sati suta. And I think to keep it even more accessible and still foundational for anybody doing this
practice, we can kind of just stay maybe more focused towards the the opening
part of it, you know. So, um, like I I guess maybe one place to jump in here is
how like what are some kind of fundamental similarities and differences between, you know, the the tradition
you’re in before the um Hindu maybe oriented tradition and where the the Buddhist tradition and I’ll just, you
know, some ways we can answer here. You can we can answer for the absolute completely beginner that has no idea of
any of this stuff. we’ve got maybe more of an intuitive level of I how much we
can sense into who may be listening to this and maybe in the future and maybe with repeated listenings. I don’t know
if that’s a little bit too much magical thinking or not, but then we have and then the another layer is just all no
holds bar. Use as much technical language and as depth and breath as you want. It doesn’t matter if anybody
understands it or not, you know. So any of those approaches or levels are
completely um ex I mean I would encourage any of those levels or anything else too. Yeah.
Narrow vs. Vast Paths in Dharma
Yeah. Well, there are two things there. Um, I know you brought up that you’re going to want to get into like actual
some hands-on nuts and bolts about actually breath meditation. Yes. And so,
yeah, I know that’ll be a big, but you brought up the the first part you brought up. So, I just want to say I’m going to say
something that I think I don’t intend it to be controversial and I’m sort of
prefacing here, but um, and you know, by the way, if I say something and someone doesn’t like it, that’s okay. You just
move on. Exactly. Well, we don’t shy I don’t shy away from controversy at all on this. I mean, everybody that I have on is civil
and diplomatic about controversial too, you know, but we don’t shy away or run away from it either.
Yeah, I say that. Okay. So, now that I’ve said that, um, it feels a little risky, but I’m just going to say it. So, I consider
Buddhism well or the Dharma or the path in in any of its forms, you know,
Buddhism is a is a big big world, right? many anyway it’s a big world and any
it’s going to be a complete path but a narrow path and what I mean by that is
um this is the part that I think might feel a little I hope it doesn’t seem disrespectful because I don’t mean it
that way you know as in many traditions you know Buddhism has a certain idea of where it wants to end people
traditionally the idea is what they might call nibbana or or they use the term the deathless and you’ll hear this
kind of language of ending the cycle of births and deaths and all of that. So
all of that stuff is for sure real. No question about it. Um but I would so you
know there’s a tension point here. Not a tension that’s not the right way to say it. I
think there’s sort of two parts that that can seem at odds but I think there’s a way to come together. One is
we want to have an idea of practicing in a tradition or a system
of where it’s aiming. And so we we already come to it. We might hear a teacher or teaching about what is it
about? What are you where are you what are you trying to have happen? Where are you aiming the practice? So there’s
that. But then right along with that because the world of samati is so vast
the things that can happen and just the world of spirituality is so it’s just
wondrous and amazing. It can open in a lot of ways that may not align with a
predetermined idea of what’s supposed to happen. And so then the question is how
much do we stay? Do we aim ourselves knowing whatever is happening we keep aiming back to some idea where we where
we think we want to head and a lot of teachers are very clear about that and we need those teachers to be clear and
we want for sure and how much do we allow the inner unfolding the way to
reveal itself and we follow so there’s knowing where we’re aiming and how much
to follow and I think we have to kind of bring a little and if I can I’ll just give you one can I just give one quick
quick example Is that all right? Please. Yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is an example. Just
Divine Light & Mother Mary Experience
a few months ago, someone whom I work with in their meditation called me from
a retreat and you know, there were teachers there and whatever. Anyway, she called me and she said, so she’s right
in the Buddhist traditional terra poly Buddhist Dharma world. And she called me
and she used very non Buddhist language. She said she’d gotten in some deep states, some Janna kind of states, and
said, this was her language. A shaft of divine light has entered her body. And
I’m thinking, well, you know, that sounds pretty nice. The next day, she calls me again. She said, “It’s changed
now.” And now instead of being a shaft of light, um, her whole body has become filled
with a a body of divine light. And then she said, “Mother Mary appeared to her and she said,”I don’t know what that’s
about because she didn’t have any relationship. She’s not a Christian. No relationship to Mother Mary, but it was
Mother Mary.” And she was um beckoning her, drawing her to merge in divine
love. What should I do? And she had gone to the teachers and
they had said, “No, no, no. you’re not supposed to have that because you’re going to cling to but they got off and
whatever and you’re supposed to be just letting go or I forgot exact
and I I’m not criticizing those teachers. I understand that they were teaching from what their way and that’s
fine. Um, and what I said to her was I said, “Look,
if your body becomes a body of divine light and then mother Mary appears to you, drawing you to merge in divine
love, you do that.” And I said to her, it was so obvious
the goodness and the rightness of it, but that doesn’t fit a traditional kind
of Buddhist or maybe thing. So then that that’s the kind of thing. So it it’s but
so the way can reveal itself in just amazing ways and and I’ll is end by this
I know I’m going on a little bit here is um again you know us Buddhists we like
to think well we’ve got the real highest and and I think there’s value in that but um I think it’s much bigger and more
vast than any one view anyway. So, no, this is a really good point and I’ve
Goenka vs. Pa-Auk Traditions
done a few online things with Richard and he I love this. He’s mentioned this before and I I I think this is a really
good jumping in point for lots and lots of things. Um, yes. Uh, I think it even
maybe even more strict when I hear reports from um let’s just I might as well just use
different traditional names here. Um, the you know the paposa style of goinka
where the teacher is not even there anymore. And from what I understand, I haven’t done one myself, but they wheel
out a television. I I I hope I I’m okay with saying this. And you know, there is no real living teacher. They they defer
to his original teachings, which I can see pros and cons, but when people are having and there’s quite a lot of uh
interesting experiences I hear can come up during Goinka retreats, but there it they seem like they you know, where’s
the living teacher that can go? So that I would say even more extreme than what you’re talking about. And you’re right.
Um so the so on one hand we have the samadei where you know samita practices
that can get very kind of focused you know and laser beam focused and stable
and exclusive on one object but the other end of that is what that does I or
I don’t know if if that’s the cause of condition for it but the states of samadei and the doors that can open the
the the the at least in my experience I’ve noticed that Um, and I’m not
claiming certain types of genres yet either. It’s just um the perception can become so malleable and so expanded and
so many more choices become available and just by I think some people’s nature
um when you get into really deep and subtle realms then certain phenomena that come up are not necessarily in the
canon. You know the we we think of the teaching of the the handful of leaves and even though the Buddha knew all this
vast knowledge he stuck to the one of the most important things that he said it only taught that but he had he knew
about all I would just assume right but he didn’t go into it but however for yogis we have some of these experiences
happen and Richard I’m no stranger to this uh the people that I talked to in the circles very bizarre and actually I
might even flip this around a little bit from some of the accounts that I’ve heard here that even there there will
being there’ll be some interfaces with some beings that come in pretending to
be vessels of light but are actually um cloaking themselves in this and it for
some practitioners they they will investigate a little bit further and see something else u behind this appearance
that they’re clo and I’m not saying that’s what happened in this case but what I’m saying is I just want to echo your point that yeah there’s the map is
way bigger I think that in then I think we’re led to believe and especially in western circles where there’s so many
academics involved and not to knock that we we’ve got a lot of but their rear is on the line a lot of times to
keep tenure where some of these things are just off the table to talk about because in a rational scientific mind
they can’t really mention these things a fear of losing I I know it’s gotten a little bit better so we need really deep
practitioners I think from all walks of life and we need I think each other to to check and of course everything needs
to be verified by the wise when we get into territories like this we we do need alternative supports and people opening
up to them just because I feel it’s so unbalanced in the west these days and I I push my teacher to to talk more about
these things which I don’t I I think it can ultimately be a distraction but just due to the unbalanced nature right now I
feel a more openness and willingness to to explore these things just because it’s been so scientifically you know
materialistbased that these things need to be opened up to more in the west. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
One-Size-Fits-All vs. Personalized Practice
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and there were a couple of things there that kind of struck me. One is you mentioned the
Goinga tradition, which is a a good example. And you know, I know plenty of
people for whom that’s the practice they should be doing. It’s it’s really it’s great for them, but for a lot of people,
it isn’t. And um they’re an example of what I call a one-sizefits-all practice.
That’s not disparaging in any way. That’s fine because what they’re saying is they’re very pure to a particular way
and they’re saying, “Hey, if you want to come practice with us, this is what it is and this is what you do and then you
can go check that out and if that works, great.” The pro and it’s not a problem, but the only thing about that is it does
not matter what the practice is. no matter what, it’s going to work for some
people and for other people, it’s just not it’s not good. It doesn’t matter what it is. And so that’s where I think
people who don’t know and are newer can get into trouble because they don’t realize that and they think, “Oh, there’s something wrong with me.” It
happens in the PWA tradition, too. Uh I know you and I I’m I’m not trying to get into your personal practice or anything
like that. I don’t No, please. No, it’s it’s on the table if you want to. Yes. So, yeah. Well, all
I would say is um I’ve known a lot of Powok practitioners um Powok’s method which by the way in my
book I’ I’ve interviewed him and um um you know when being in his presence I don’t want to do his practice but I when
I was with him there was something palpable and I thought I want what he’s got but the doorway in isn’t his way. Um
and um actually I know people you know Paw Walker is kind of funny because he tends to sort of have this certain way
like you have to you have to do breath meditation not good for everyone. I mean you can do these four elements and other stuff too
but breath meditation and you got to pay attention to the breath in a very specific way and I know people who’ve
gotten all through his whole system authorized uh by Pawak as having um one guy told me
um I was talking to him when I was doing my book and he said uh yeah and I he he was he was someone who was I wanted to
talk to him because he had been authorized by Pawakas having gone through all of Pawak Janna’s But he
said, “Now listen, don’t tell Pawak.” But what actually happened was he started seeing right in the third eye
area a blue dot and it was very compelling and he just kind of went with that and that’s what he he goes but then
he got into what Powok said was his real Janna but he don’t tell P but I didn’t tell Pok that’s how he did it. So even
with Powak it shows that even though you know he’s a great master but you know we
anyway so I anyway but no it’s it’s a good point. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I just
wanted to say not to belabor on that is as with all systems
Pa-Auk Jhanas & Nimitta
um Powok has a very specific idea around samadei and Janna and um it turns out I
don’t know if you want to get into this but the deeper stages of samadei there’s at least two main categories we can put
them in and how they unfold that are equally deep people tend to think oh well the pawak is just deeper not deeper
different and I can tell you if you want and most people
um the powok way you have to try it if you’re drawn to it and see and you’ll know if it’s work most people are never
going to get a visual nimita never has nothing to do with how deep their practice is the nimat manifests in
many felt sense in the body um so it’s just not going to get a visual the for
visual people they will um most people aren’t going to get the what we call the narrow onepointed um a kagata uh they’ll
get an un open broader but it’s still just as just as uh a kagat if people may
not know the term. So it’s it’s a lot of flavors for it. So I don’t know Josh you
Suta vs. Visuddhimagga Jhanas
know um um you may very well be getting into what I would call a sutan. It may just not be a basudi majan. I mean I
don’t know. Yeah. No that’s that and that and so yeah let me give you a little background here. uh a lot of things and I the
before all this though you said uh the narrow path and I that’s actually my exartner described terravada as the
narrow path you know it’s the considered the lesser vehicle and Mahayana is considered a greater vehicle so for me
that makes sense that it’s more of a straight not everybody can do it there’s a you know that’s a whole another thing
maybe and maybe that’s not where you’re what you meant by that that’s not what I meant okay that’s not what you meant okay but
sure You mean it it it reminded me of that though. But yeah, I I kind of see where you
I meant something different which I can explain, but your way I like what you said too. Well, yeah, I think maybe both apply,
but I I’ll give you a chance to to go back and and say that. So, yeah, the Pak as far as what I noticed. Oh, and I’m
sorry here. Um um I forgot to I’m getting a call here and I forgot to this
uh mute the or turn off this. So, sorry for the technical difficulties, which by the way, um, Richard and I, uh, Richard
was experiencing technical difficulties and I didn’t say that because it was seamless behind the scenes, but I think it’s worth pointing out that this
happens to me sometimes and I just take it as a maybe a sign that this is an important conversation. Okay, so now
things happen. They exactly, you know, Anicha, right? So, um the the blue dot though from what
you said really great things that I want to hear and um you know I’ve I I
tell people I won’t talk about Janna solo because it’s so controversial. It’s almost like a Buddhist trigger word for
some. Uh even it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be. Of course not. Exactly. And even the word nimmita is a trigger
word, but I think people are getting better. But I I talked to other practitioners and teachers about it, of course. And I would say, yeah, the
things that I was experiencing in more what’s known as sutana, which is not as strict criteria. Yeah. I I I thought
that I was, you know, experiencing, you know, what was described as Janna by a lot of those other, you know, folks. and
and but then when I get to this really more narrow criteria I don’t even know if narrow um different criteria of what
some people call visi magajana right that or whatever we want to call it that that pacus uses it’s usually lightbased
and I love this reference about visual because I I’ve noticed before I go into
my regular practice if I do another practice outside of it and focus more on visual phenomena then I I tend to to
have more kind of light arise, but it still hasn’t stabilized. And from what I’ve heard, this notion of a um a dot um
um uh or a blue light, right? That that that is maybe considered a nimita for
some too. And then once it stabilizes, then you can use that as the the meditation object. And
yeah, um that’s hardly any people will ever get that, but there are some. Exactly. So maybe we can talk about
that. Um um so uh why you feel that this is um it makes sense to me but maybe you
can go into more detail about how this is uh for some visual people is more um
you know in or it’s more accessible this type I I would just say because it’s you know it involves light and um visual
nimmita but for some people you don’t feel it’s like this and I I would do want to echo too that skillful means
right so yes skillful means is where it’s at and I think that some people would be maybe out better off depending
on their dispositions where they’re at too. There’s also something to say about continued effort where I came to this
though Richard um and uh need to take a pause here why while I do do something
else in the household. I’m so sorry for the interruptions I experienced in today but everything seems almost on a
conceptual level. Um so this is where when you get into once you pass the samatus stage in pak you get into
discerning ultimate materiality and ultimate mentality which is not a concept apparently and so and then more
difficulty for or challenge for me not difficulty is that I I practice and live more in the tyest tradition where I have
to be careful not to get too much into pa stuff in ty forest tradition. So it’s it’s a it’s a balancing act.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Well let me just back up here. So um I can just say where I come
from as a both as a practitioner and as a teacher um getting back to this notion
that I mentioned earlier about this kind of bringing together these two aspects
of having an idea of where you’re aiming but also allowing just what’s happening
to reveal itself and kind of a path presents itself that we that we follow.
What I do is I definitely have ideas. I start off not what should happen but I I want to
help people work in a way to help their mind start to stabilize. Um and uh
that’s the samadei part start to grow. We can get in a whole another conversation because I don’t actually
separate out what you’d call mindfulness, concentration,
insight and the heart qualities. They’re actually they’re not the same thing but they’re all you can’t really they’re all
come in there. So I don’t you a lot of people will separate them with separate ways of practice. That’s totally fine
for me. They’re all there and you get the best of all of it. So we start by um
and so even with that I don’t come at it with a predetermined idea. What I do is when I meet with people oftenimes they
know but if they don’t know then I want to say well let’s find together your
best doorway in the best practice for you. That may not be breath meditation. Some people I don’t know it could be
mantras or meditation on sound or body scans there’s a lot of practices most people I think breaths probably is good
and then how do you work with the breath it turns out it actually does not matter where in the body you there’s nothing
special about here it’s just a sensation actually with pawak it’s not even a sensation it’s a mental idea because he
wants you to be out in space you know how do you do that I don’t know but if you can do it God bless you go for it so
um whatever and so we help people find their practice. It could shift over time. Sure,
everybody can find a good practice. Sometimes they need a little help. We can always get there. We might have to
do some experiments. We’ll try this and we see but we can get there. And then once that happens, we see how is it
unfolding and we let the the present moment experience reveal itself and it
tells what’s needed next. So in that way, we’re doing two things. It’s helping us to follow the deepening what
helps the deepening of samati and it also helps us then stay attuned to what
what’s happening what are the experiences that are as the samadei is deepening and then that’s kind of
revealing itself and then sometimes I do want to help people say you know I do think we should steer not go that way
and steer it back here which you can do and there’s this a big topic I’m just speaking so generally here I can’t get
specific let’s steer it back because that seems the way. And I’ve actually had people
not follow my advice and kind of get off in the things that maybe weren’t so great. And it’s like I told you, but
anyway, we need to steer them back. So that way sometimes we still do want to steer people. But right along that way,
we’re letting the organ or organicity or the the the the wonder, the magic of not
magic, but unfold and reveal itself. and they’re really connecting with their own deepest inner
guidance teacher. This might sound a little newagy, but really the ways there
and and um it can look a lot of ways. This is what I meant by the way when I said about I appreciated what you said
Narrow Path to Nibbāna vs. Opening to Divine
about a narrow path because it can be a narrow path right to nibbana, right? For
sure. I you didn’t use the word but I think that’s what you meant. I mean in a different way. I mean even the idea of
uh what we would call some people might know this term nibbana without remainder or we call ending the cycle the
deathless ending the cycle earth and deaths actually let me back up for a second so here I’m going to be controversial again so you know in the
Buddhist tradition it said if you could this is the tradition speaking if you
could see as the Buddha could see immense incalcable lifetimes of all the beings
you would know that the only thing that would you really want to do is is like end this process, right? Two problems
with that. Okay, I’m going to say it. Number one, we don’t know what the mind of the Buddha was. I don’t mean that
disrespectively. Nobody knows. And are we really claiming that he
actually had direct knowledge into every living being who the billions upon billions who’ve ever existed, who do now
or who ever will? Maybe. I don’t know. But so is that’s the tradition talking.
Secondly, um you can dissolve out of existence.
It’s a way of speaking into the deathless. It’s not a thing to you can’t go into. It’s just a way of speaking. But that process can happen and then you
can re come back into into being and know what had happened and absolutely
that’s real. However, in that, you know, um to know that um if you could really
see what’s going on, you’d want to just uh snuff out and end it. That’s
um nobody knows that either. I don’t care if they’re sitting up on the stage with a shaved head and dressed in robes.
They do not know that. It’s religious belief. And I’ve had these things. Well,
now I am making a complaint. the co uh uh this can happen not to be confused
with a cessation which is a different thing but they can mask as each other so that’s a different conversation
so that can happen if you’re opening into the divine it’s a different feeling
and there you’re not thinking of it’s a different way it’s like going to this is kind of weird it’s popped in my head
actually it’s kind of nicer we’ll see going to nibbana is like going to zero opening to the vine is like going to the
infinite and so there are sort of two ways And you know, um,
so that’s what I mean by narrow. It’s like if you want to have a certain idea,
it’s it’s beautiful. You go for that, but it’s it’s no matter what way you’re
viewing it, it’s not the entirety. These are wow. Lot lot of great points here and a lot of things to address. Um,
Nibbāna, Deathless & Unfathomable Realities
you know, it remind Oh, it’s okay. We’re um we’re we’re supposed to be forgiving anyway, right?
So uh um you know this it reminds me of the narata maharaj quotes where you know
wisdom tells me I’m nothing, love tells me I’m everything. between these two my life flows
and so as far as nibana goes you know that
and the the mind of the Buddha and I asked my teacher this and I asked him how he perceives the 31 realms and like
where does mount sim simu mount maru fit into this whole thing and he basically I
don’t I think it was maybe a non-answer answer basic we we don’t really know the mind of a Buddha and how it maps on
different cosmologies which is one you know what I’m saying yeah and that’s one way And he, you know, to fit it into some other things
in the canon, he said there’s no discernable uh beginning, no discernable end. So in that sense, we don’t really
know the extent. What it what it said though, he wasn’t all knowing, but what he aimed the the mind at, he could then
penetrate and know. So it’s not like this omnisient all the time. So So in
that case, you would have to be direct. We don’t know that either. We don’t know that either. That’s right. It’s saying there’s a lot we don’t know.
And so that’s it. The the one thing that sticks out, another thing that sticks out, we going to these more vast um um
vistas here is that I don’t remember too many mentions of
divinity in the canon. We have the divine eye which is really interesting. I think we have that notion translation
meaning exactly what we’re talking about because I always wondered about that
you know look when when dissolving away and and
there’s only the deathless which is it’s again we’re using these words for things that are really ineffable.
Exactly. They can only point at best. Yeah. But there’s no problem because there’s
nobody there to have a problem. Right. Well that’s it. Yeah, it’s it’s just no problem. But um it’s so fine and you
know whatever way people go, I respect it and it’s beautiful and it’s laudable and we want to support people.
But then um you know people are having whether it’s happening through meditation or other traditions or even I
don’t want to get off into like psychoactive substances but I’ll just say people are doing things through that too that are opening and that’s coming
into dharma. the the the ra the realm of what’s possible I think is quite people
are experiencing on some vast ways and then they see how do these map together and then you have to we have to feel our
own way. I I I I would agree for the most part with this and especially I think these
days where we’ve kind of been dumbed down a lot and constricted and narrowed now it’s a time to go back and open up.
The one thing from the can too that kind of blew my mind and put things into perspective because we talk about this tetralma of uh someone asked the Buddha
one time you know I think you know after enlightenment will I exist will I not exist will I both exist and not exist or
will I neither exist and not exist and he said it doesn’t fit the case it does not apply so then all the things we’re
kind of talking about here they’re just not really fathomable and it doesn’t you know when we talk
so it cuts for me that one cuts off a lot of um proliferation around this
topic that you know that I want to try to pin it down with existentialism or
you know in all these different combinations and it it just I just it blows my mind to think that none of that
even applies. So it’s you know and he just you know he laid out a path and then once that’s reached the holy life’s
lived there’s no more work to be done but he doesn’t go into detail about after that you know then the Mahayana
view of all that so it gets it can there’s a lot to this you know and uh and there’s there’s another aspect to
this which is I think not really separate but it’s another way of speaking so you know we’ve been using
you we’ve been kicking around ideas that well I would use labels from what we’ve
talking about you know that we’ll use what what realization
Liberation Through Non-Clinging
awakening or some of the terms liberation sure well so liberation is an interesting one because in my mind this may not be other
people I I tend to use it as something connected but actually different because liberation and I was about to say
actually I’m glad you brought that up that to me a simple way to bring this right back down very accessible is if we
use this framework what I will call liberation through on clinging. It kind of encompasses everything because it’s
it we we do these practices of non-clinging, letting go, letting go, letting go. And it gets right down to
everyday life and it carries all the way up through whether it’s the divine or
the deathless or anything like or into or or just as deep of a liberation as we just move about in in daily life. And
it’s very in that way um and so it’s a different way to hold things. tends to be for me now my own
practice you know I still meditate um and um
you know I don’t know what would happen if I stopped I don’t know I you know I still do haven’t done that experiment but um
mostly my practice now is for me has gotten very simple um I just live and
mostly you know it’s pretty good and um I move about and I’m you that the anybody’s
practiced for a long time, you know, that stream of samadei carries through the stream of wakefulness, the stream of
nonclean, it’s very alive, right? And so you’re just it’s kind of like that and you you’re kind of cleaned out and
there’s and you’re sort of emptied out. Well, you’re kind of filled up to it. Well, that’s okay. Sorry, I’m get that’s kind of hard to talk about, but then you
just live. Anytime I end up in any kind of clinging or reactivity,
you know, pretty much you know it. And during those times, you know what to do
and you can you let go. When my heart’s in ill will, open the heart. So I mostly
live and then when needed, let go. Open the heart, let go, open the heart and live. And so it’s a very and I don’t
have to do it as a practice. You just live as we all know a fruit of the practice is the actual mindful knowing
gets way better. We claiming you can never space out. Okay, we won’t maybe go
take it that far. It gets pretty good. If something’s going on, you know it and you’re not entangled in it so much. You
just know, oh, I got a mind of ill will here. And and you might even know, you
know, I don’t really want to let this go because that person really is a whatever. And this like okay you know
what to do open the heart I’m in reactivity I don’t like this you know I know what to do let go so in that way it
to me it’s kind of come full circle around in something that’s actually very very simple
u and this is so this is so great because I I often look for commonalities amongst
all these different schools and religions and I think that’s one that is more universal too you know we talked
earlier about lineages and I like to say about preserving lineages So we have something to draw on. So it just doesn’t
get this huge soup or gray hive mind type things that but there’s also something to see be said about where’s
the commonality where’s the common language. Of course non-clinging letting go is is one of them. And I like
translating between people more on a divinity path with Buddhist language too and having these things talk um you know
talk and share amongst each other. you know the the Brahma vihares are um I think one of these these commonalities
too and so yeah all this stuff is is really great and the non-clinging and this notion of an awakening of of a
Buddha which means um awake right this is one thing that all the schools kind of acknowledge and I would say even the
schools acknowledge four noble truths at least in Buddhism even if it is to completely say oh there is no suffering
no you know in Mahayana or whatever no no no cause or whatever they there still acknowledged in some way. So I think
you know tell that to them when they’re suffering. Exactly. Right. I mean come on seriously
you know working for you. Yeah. Exactly. Not so the Buddha was a pragmatist for sure. If it helps them let go to bring that in
then now it’s that practical. That’s a really good point. Very good point.
Breath Practice & Nuts-and-Bolts
Okay. So let’s bring this back to the breath too. And um I I I just want to say for my own practice, this is what I
was doing for years too, Richard, is kind of sitting down either right before formal sitting practice or during it,
just kind of tapping into intuition and saying, “Okay, like what’s needed now?” Like, where does the mind really have to
to I mean, what does the practice look like now? What’s needed now? And I was practicing like that for years. And it
it served me fairly well, but like I said earlier, it kind of came down to I was just dealing in concepts, you know,
and I was wondering and then you also mentioned and I think this is really important too, you know, okay, we can’t
just not have any kind of point or goal, but then we also can’t be like in our
western mindset where we’re all goal oriented and goal driven and having all these metrics, you know, so so you know,
where’s the practical balance in this? You alluded to a lot of this and also the importance of a teacher too to you
know bring help nurture and bring forth an inner teacher and but also get
someone back on track and make sure that they’re not completely off in the weeds and there’s like a kind of a mirroring
aspect, you know, in in a in a a guiding aspect and a really rooted in deep
experiential practice and that has also other people checking them and and so I think this this comes in as well.
Yeah. And how do how do we and then I guess just and then I want to go into like the more of the nuts and bolts of
Anapana too. Um like the the the big thing I think we come uh I think that’s
enough to comment on then we can get in into nuts and bolts. I think and I know you want to move more
Nothing to Do, Yet Developing on the Path
into nuts and bolts which is great. Um, but just one thing you brought up, you
know, um, I think the way I would kind of rephrase exactly what you were saying
is, um, you know, it’s interesting because you’ll hear teachers say use language
like there’s nothing to do, nothing to be, nowhere to go and that kind of
language. But at the same time, we are on a path that is a path of development
and is leading somewhere. So, in a way it can seem like, well, wait a minute, we’re kind of on a path and we’re going
somewhere and not going anywhere at the same time. Well, how can that be? But actually, and I can understand this, but
actually I do think those things I actually talk about this a lot. Those things come together, I think, quite
nicely when we realize of course we’re on a path of development and cultivation that’s leading somewhere. So, that’s the
getting somewhere part. But the way we do that is just It’s kind of a cliche. The quality of
how we’re being here. That’s the not going anywhere. So, we’re tending to the present moment, which really is all we
have. That’s kind of a cliche, but it’s true. We only have the present moment. By being here without a sense of and
what’s happening, what’s skillful, what’s wise, what works best just for being here. We both have the not
overstriving, not over and and the other thing is, you know,
sometimes people say, “Yeah, I’m not supposed to want whatever.” Of course you want it. Everybody wants um
like Somati’s great. It’s really pleasant. Cha, everybody wants it. And everybody goes
through clinging. So, it’s they don’t make a big deal about it. It’s all right. Go ahead. I This is a whole
another thing. I I think teachers make too big of a deal about people not clinging. I
I’m I’m trying to be a little humorous, but really I think you know what you just go ahead cling away. It’s fine. Now
you’re going to suffer, but maybe that’s how you learn. So it’s it’s part of the path.
Clinging, Letting Go & When It Lets Go of Us
Of course, knowing and knowing suffering and and in and ceasing suffering. That’s right. And you talked about, you know,
wholesome desires. there’s a ch we don’t want to throw away that raft too early either, you know. And there’s a whole
notion of, okay, I’ve been trying to let this go and let go, but it it seems like it’s clinging on to me. And I’ve heard
some teachings saying, well, when the time’s right, maybe what we’re trying to let go of will let go of us, which I
thought was an interesting way to flip it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um
because it’s true, isn’t it, that there Exactly. There are times when it’s one thing when we’re just we we’ve
lost our mindfulness. We’re just entangled in the things and we just aren’t clearly seeing what’s happening.
And then there’s a step when we we know what’s happening and we’re clear and and
and still we’re either not able or willing or something’s not there to still can’t let go around it and then at
some point it shifts. It lets go of us or we we find the key or whatever it is
and then it can happen. So yeah, we can totally know that’s the worst, right? We see what’s happening. I can see I’m
creating my own suffering right here. And I’m it’s hard to let go,
but that’s that’s such it’s such a good sign because it’s at that point it’s as long as there’s continued I think effort
and practice, it’s only a matter of time before that happens because you know that’s what’s so great about awareness
and knowing something because then there’s a chance to make a choice if if the choice is involved, you know. That’s
right. But sometimes maybe the parame is not ripe enough or you know the insight
hasn’t sank deep into the bones or maybe there’s some action we still need to take you know um or whatever. There’s so
many different causes and conditions and kind of mysterious processes that happen but I think for practitioners listening
to this they can definitely relate to what we’ve been talking about here. Yeah. Yeah.
Jhanas: Exclusive vs. Inclusive Samadhi
Okay. So now I think maybe a good jumping in point here of course that um you know across all what what
constitutes Janna or not I think the the commonality here is the johnic factors you know even in we we hear about pak
janna or vudi maga janna right or nimatab based lightbased janna it’s from
what I understand and I don’t know from personal experience that the the absorption is so deep that you’re not
supposed to check the johnic factors you’re supposed to have to emerge from janna first and then in retrospect look
back and say okay check the johnic factors which I I just like I it’s it’s hard for me to fathom that
that’s such a deep concentration uh that that it’s not even possible to get knocked out you know through sense it so
like if somebody were to come up and hit you know this this classic story where Mogulana and Sarutra are sitting there
and some I think Yaka or demon hits um Sarutra on the head and he’s unfazed in
Molana’s tells him later, “Oh, I can’t believe, you know, there was a big yaka there and
you got hit in the head and you you didn’t even notice it. You know, you’re unfazed. Your concentration is so
strong.” He said, “Oh,” he’s like, “Oh, how amazing it is that you were able to see that yaka do that.” You know, so
but what I would say is um you’re talk what you’re getting to is different not depths of samadei
um but flavors. So, can can I back up just for a moment here? Would that be all right? Yeah.
So the word samade you know we translate it as concentration. Um I think it’s
probably it’s a we’re stuck with it because everyone uses that but I think it’s actually a quite terrible
connotations in English especially in the west. Yeah. Yes. In English it means undistracted.
So you’ve talked you’ve spoken since we’ve in during our time here about a a
particular flavor of undistracted where you can be so good at becoming undistracted on we call it a one thing
we say it’s not literally a point but it’s on the one if you’re seeing light and bliss it’ll only be light and bliss
say or something like that and you get so good that you stop noticing other things around you and that’s the kind
that you’re talking about we call it like a an exclusive onepointed samadei Because for you, if that happens to that
depth, the changing flow of experience stops for you in your awareness while you’re in that state. But there’s a
different kind of somebody that’s just as deep of a stopping. But rather than
the being on a narrow on an object fixed
like that the mind can be quite broad and inclusive and all experience are
there but it’s the mind itself that’s unmoving and and um uh imperturbable
just as deep and and matter of fact the way I think about it is so I’m going to you I don’t know brain science what I’m
about to say may not be actually how it works but I think the idea works that whatever it is in the brain centers that
have you come to what we use this johnic factor of a kagata we say onepointedness or unification of mind is the same in
all these Janna in this vudi maga style the other brain centers along with the
one-pointedness that that allow you to have any other experiences come to quiescence and they won’t can’t arise
whereas in like a suta kind of janna those can still operate even though that the the depth of samadei
undistractedness, utter unmoving fixed
samadei is the same depth as the now the massudi maga people say no no no it’s
not it is they don’t know it’s the same depth in that way rather than it being
an exclusive somat I use the word for that um I translate a kagata rather than
one pointedness in that style I’d call it unification of mind is still a oneness
the mind is completely unmoving but experiences come and go and know in that
way actually all the insight stuff happens right there in the in the Janna uh so it’s a different flavor of the way
that a kagata the johnuk factor this onepointedness can manifest in two
different ways most people on their own you can steer it either way depend you’ll naturally go in one direction and
you can do that and it can be steered in the other direction that’s a big topic How do you do that? Most people on their
own are going to go into this what I’m calling inclusive unification of mind. Uh a relatively small percentage can go
into this is why the powok way it works great and respected path. But for a
small percentage of people go in that way, but it’s not because they’re better concentrators. It’s I mean they like to
say that because everybody look we all want to have the best and the deepest. Come on. We do. So that’s fine.
No. And then the visi manga says how rare it is. They say you know how they not deeper
different great. Yeah. So it’s really interesting. I even heard this called aware Janna. And I kind of like that
Why the Confusion Around Jhana Definitions
term which you’re talking about too where there’s still an amount of awareness there. So I guess u where the the the question
that comes up next is why the confusion then in your in your in your in your opinion you know why are there
that? Well, well, yeah, you can give opinion and give give, you know, factual
background too. Um, so yeah, everything and and then more if you want around this. Sure. I would say two things. One is uh
people are really practicing and experiencing in all of these different ways and that’s what worked for them and
they’re teaching the way that worked for them. So there’s a range of experience, but there’s also if you’re using the
sutas or some texts or tradition or formulation as your guide. Well, that’d
be okay too if you want to do that. Um, however, there’s a lot of places in the poly text
where it’s what’s being said is very clear, but there’s a lot of places where it’s not clear and the definition of
Janna is about as unclear as can be. So by definition, Janna is a specific state
of samadei that matches these the exact words in this phrase that’s par one
sentence for each of the Jas. And so anything that matches those words is Janna. Well, if you go back and look at
the words, um it’s so vague that it does not give you much help at all. Um we
could get specific if you want. So there’s a huge range of of experiences
that match the verbal description which means all of these different people from
what we would call kind of light samade that I might not call as Janna to pak
all can legitimately be teaching Janna and it’s not right or wrong it’s just it
matches the words it’s Janna now back in the day they probably I’m guessing had
some shared understanding ing uh so fine but
you know I’m not we’re not there to have to chitchat with those guys or well it was women too but uh yeah
Suttas vs. Visuddhimagga Divergence
no that tends to be my current understanding too you know the the questions of well why wasn’t you know the the Buddha gave very detailed um
like on um four foundations four frames of reference of mindfulness right way more detailed and even anapana compared
to Janna you know just go find a secluded place And it you’re basically in first, John. I I’m oversimplifying a
little bit here, but so the prevailing sentiment I think today in the west seems to be that like you said maybe
during that time it was way more familiarity with that. You didn’t need to go into such vast intricate detail
about Janna. The other thing I wonder about too on this is what happens if you
know let’s just say the Buddha thought well maybe you know maybe due to adicha or the the sassa of the Buddha um where
things will change a lot and so he needed to be more not as detailed because maybe
what one part of the world with one person’s energy system could get into Janna one way but then maybe in a
different era in a different time you it changed significantly in a different area of the region to what so maybe
that’s a possibility I I I don’t know so we look at the word uh Janna I think it’s from the what a root word uh giati
which means to like steadily burn is that right um that’s it’s actually it turns out a lot
of people say that um I spoke with a Sanskrit scholar and he said actually that’s coming from a it looks different
root actually uh so it’s Not that. Uh, okay. So, yeah, say more about that if
you’d like. Yeah. Well, I don’t I can’t go back to the ethmology. I could look up some books
and do that. Um, it just means to meditate. Yes. Uh, that’s it.
Now, it’s right. Yeah. Yeah. There are places in the poly text a few places where there’s a a wrong
Janna like when the Buddha you know you see the statues when that show the his
body was like a skeleton when he was doing those aesthetic practices and in the text it says he was doing a
breathingless Janna that that was not consider like not
good. So there’s a few places but overwhelmingly almost all it’s referring
to what we call the four Jas uh yet there. And then the interesting thing is also I spoke with this when I was
writing my book I spoke with Peter Skiilling. I don’t know if he’s still I guess he’s still with us on this earth.
I don’t know he’s a great Sanskrit and poly scholar. He used to be the president of the poly tech society for a
while and he’s a Peter Skilling if anyone wants to look him up. and I had a conversation and he said to me that it
Vitakka-Vicāra: Two Interpretations
at least two of the phrases two of the word of the four of the jonafactors vitaka vichara are extremely problematic
and we do not know the original meaning and so when you look at the way it’s
it’s defined there’s two we don’t have to get into it unless you want to but there’s two groups of different piles of
of translations that each have these two sets of meanings that are very different and uh because people just take it that
way. Maybe that’s what their their experience was. We don’t know what the original meaning was and and the the
scholars can’t can’t get to it. Problems.
Sure. Let’s actually this is to me as we talking about John this is absolutely fundamental because these are the first
two Johnic factors you know and just a little bit of background there’s a site called pure dhama uh is it.net.org or uh
where the he he really points to this thing of possible misinterpretations uh
early interpretations of the canon in the Buddhist language that a lot of these the the interpreters back then
they didn’t really have a huge um comprehensive understanding of you know
a lot of the things and he he said there’s a lot of fundamental things they they’ve they got wrong according to to
him and he goes into detail but that’s kind of an aside so this just kind of bring val potential validation to what
Richard says So, so jump into the tuck of a chart because I think you know from what the the standard that I’ve heard
it’s you know applied it’s the same thought or you know all somewhere along these lines but apparently there’s a lot
more to it than just that. Well, right. So the the translations uh when I was writing my book I went and
looked up every English translation I I as many sources as I could find. And so
in a pock style which is a vasudi ma. Now here’s one other thing we should say. I I are your viewers um are they um
do they know about what the vasudi maga is and well I would I would sure some of them are so you can maybe give a brief thing
because you know what we talk about in the sutas versus all the different commentaries and subcommentaries quite a
different thing a lot of times but yeah well I’ll just bring it in I mean obviously you know this Josh but I’ll just say for your for your audience um
so we’re talking in a tradition that’s been preserved in the language pi so which
poly text and the sutas are these discourses or teaching just like sutra in Sanskrit it’s suta in poli and so um
u those of course were pres an oral tradition for many centuries I think they were probably written down three
four 500 years after the Buddha and they got written and then there was a so that’s that’s kind of what we’re talking
about but then there was a whole commentarial tradition that that where people were sincerely trying to come to
the real meaning and their own understanding ing and so you know we’re really trying honestly and got commentaries so
we don’t know but five six 700 years after the Buddha I mean a long time ua
who was well-known commentator wrote this it’s not a commentary it’s a treatise but it it
pulls in the commentarial understanding into a meditation manual with a V called
the visudi maga it’s kind of a long tongue twister but it means path of purification And so in terravada
Buddhism now u it’s kind of these two camps one camp is if you want to
understand the way to meditate the voodi maga is explaining to you what the sutas
meaning you have to filter it through the lens of the voodi maga that’s fine that’s that’s a system there’s the whole
other camp that says um uh well the vudi maga got it wrong I for me personally I
wouldn’t use the word got it wrong it’s just another development uh but it is different the sutas is and
my a lot of the reason I wrote my book was um there was so much confusion and
so I said wait a minute let’s go back and pretend there’s no vasudi maga just let’s look what is the suta say and then
I said let’s presume there’s no sutas what does the vudi maga say and we can compare them and what it turns out is
they’re just two different they have some overlap but two quite different systems of how to practice what Janna is
the place of of insight and they’re just different systems. So we have to be
careful judging one from the view perspective of the other system. We can just respect them both. But the idea is
we hold them. So in the vudi ma understanding is this okay that I’m doing it like John?
Absolutely. This is great Richard. Thanks. In the vudi maga understanding vaka vichar those first two uh janna factors
are transl. So for another thing is um they should be according to Peter skilling they should be taking as a pair
they go together vaka vichara and it means connecting and sustaining would
there’s other ways it’s like aiming and uh but basically it’s the mental it’s a
mental process of directing your attention that’s the connecting onto your meditation object and then mentally
holding it there on the object that’s what vaka vichara is the whole other understanding which um you know the
sutas don’t don’t give any explanation but I think of it more in a sus that there’s other mental activities and so
people translate it as reflection and discursive thought
thinking and pondering even I’ve heard or it’s just other mental activity so for example
I’ll just give you an example you can be in Janna and we this is an interesting thing and we say well the mind gets to a
place where it’s unmoving which is True. But then it’s very interesting because there’s another part of the mind that
can it’s it’s it’s not a lot but can move. I’m saying it verbally. It may not be verbal but it mean it might be like
huh this is interesting or what’s that or let me feel into that or h and you can actually direct your mind and use it
to move through Janna to see what’s going on investigate. So what’s going on? Are there like two minds there? And
anybody I’ve ever talked to about said, “Yeah, I know. I know.” There’s the unmoving and then there’s
another part on top of it. So, it’s that part on top of it that now that’s other
mental activity and and it could even be a little light verbal or or this is interesting. Uh let me let
go of this or let me incline this way a little bit. That would be the vitakar. That’s more than just connecting and
sustaining on the object. So you can come into practice holding either view
that’s flavoring influencing how you’re going to practice and depending on how it unfolds you can
look to see how it’s presenting it. So there’s a lot of ways to work with this. It’s not one way and some teachers will
say no no you got to go back to one way. Great. Others like me are saying well let’s just look to see how it is. Great.
One Mind, Two Streams in Jhana
So it it’s again it’s a big world. really good points about this Vitaka
Vichara. Um, and yeah, I’ve heard the other the other translations you said as well. So, the
very practical thing you mentioned here um it reminds me of Ajan Suchart who I’ve um done a few zooms with him and I
think how he translates um a kakata is uh one mind and I never heard it put
like that before. So, what you’re explaining there is kind of like two different minds. you kind of almost have
like a supervisory or something other than and you know well I I will ask you
here in practice do those mind streams I don’t know if we
want to call that do they ever unify and that doesn’t happen where that goes away and so like maybe the second Janna
experience when when Vitaka vara are supposed to fall away does what that
phenomena you were describing there does that go away and there’s even a more you know um so I think that might be
followup here. Yeah. Yeah. It gets uh subtler and subtler um
because even people who teach going beyond the four Jas into the the four formless attainments in in the Vudi maga
they call them the formless Janna and the sutas just just for uh just so people know
different terminology. So it’s not a right or wrong. Uh sometimes you’ll hear them formless Janna. In the sutas
they’re not called Janna they’re the formless attainment. So you could hear it both ways. Um even people I know who
teach and would even say well even there you know you can kind of incline. So it gets subtler and subtler.
I would say as long as the sense of yourself there as an experiencer is
there. It can it it’s it gets subtler and subtler and subtler until it’s kind
of there’s then you’ve kind of merged or different things happen and then then none of that’s operative anymore. So
that’s what I would say. You know, maybe someone might have a different I don’t know. It gets so subtle. I want to be careful of making a categorical
Evolution of Teachings Over Time
statement. Exactly. You know, there’s really fascinating things too with the Vudi Maga. Um I guess
maybe just a little bit more background for the the scholarly background. Why do you think there there is such a divergence? Because I I can kind of see
it your way. I think maybe if I’m getting this right, the Pak approach he you know is it’s primarily Abidama and
Vudi Maga. However, it there’s a still a huge referencing of the sutas to back
up, you know, the method and approach and and of course within the vicudi mug itself, there’s, you know, it’s
constantly referencing sutas. But, you know, you have Buddhagosa and there’s so much legend around this text too, right?
Like it being rewritten from scratch like multiple times. Am I getting that
right? Or that he was actually trying to legend around you. Oh. Oh, yeah. I don’t
know if he was trying to gain a a Brahma rebirth by doing this. So, I thought there was some interesting kind of
magical legends around this or not. So, I guess the the more practical thing around this is
why do why do you see such a a a split between these two? You know, I don’t
even know if a split’s the right word, but you know, just the way you painted it. Why? Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, that’s an
interesting question. And so it it’s sort of like there I can think of two options but there could be other options
I’m I’m not considering were people did the did the understanding of the
teachings or or the methods of meditation evolve and then the commentarial and vudi approach reflected
an evolved understanding over time and then they started practicing in ways to
match that understanding because that’s what you thought you to do or was it the other way around people were having
certain experiential experiences happening and because of that out of that became the commentarial
kind of writings about it. So, was it coming from a practice first leading to this the texts? Was it a textual thing?
You know, I don’t maybe both. I mean, I don’t know, but I’m imagining, you know,
things evolve, right? They don’t stay the same. It would be amazing to me if things didn’t evolve over time and
before they were written down. That would really over centuries if it had not shifted. That would be really amazing.
Well, absolutely. It’s a really good point. when people get too I think locked into one thing they maybe have to
remember a nichza we also do have maybe more timeless you know aspects of the
dharma which are going to be more or less you know the same throughout no matter what time period as well so you
know it’s it’s maybe a balance of these but yeah you know just one can I just say one
more thing oh yeah yeah yeah and here’s another thing that might be controversial but you know I’m just one person speaking again if people don’t
like it just let it go. Right? We need to push the limits and and test these things. Yes.
It Doesn’t Matter Which Path—All Lead to Liberation
What I’m saying is the good news. So it can feel confusing to people of know what should I do? What’s the right way?
Is there a right way? I’m hearing all these voices and I understand that. I want to offer that the good news is it
does not matter what you do. I mean I’m not mean in a general like you don’t want to go out and create harm and all
that but I mean as a dharma doing these practices it’s an all of the above and you know
any practices that help your mind uh come to more steadiness so it’s not just scattered all over the place more
clarity of mindfulness insights all the heart qualities of kindness empathy
compassion love discernment um um non-reactivity ity and just all
every quality you can think of can bring you to liberation and there are many many ways to do it and so I just don’t
think it matters you just at all it’s it’s you know it’s a really good
point because what what we’re talking about here can easily lead people into doubt and that’s not what I want to do
here at all which we bring it back to skillful states you know skillful means and skillful states what Richard was
saying and then we will eventually see and know it for ourselves and then we can test it with with our own wisdom. So
yeah, I agree with that. So yeah, I mean that that will lead us here into maybe the five the five faculties which I feel
that you know PA teaches really well about how to um you know bring more
strength and balance to one’s practice. They they uh at least my teacher points to the five faculties quite a bit in
balancing those as well as far as helping um with with with samata. A real
practical one for me maybe being a little bit over um active on on a mental sphere over not
I wouldn’t say overthinking but like a a lot of mental activity from time to time. So I just want to ask for maybe
some real practical guidance because I hear some teachers, you know, where they’ll say, well, thinking’s not the
problem, but you know, they give lip service that no, it’s it’s it’s it’s okay. It’s no big deal, but but then
they go into micromanaging, you know, every little thing, which basically says it is wrong and it’s and
then I have teachers say no, it’s actually thinking is a hindrance. Um so you know I don’t know where I feel on
this all because you know the mind can be uh like a genius machine at times but
it’s not the only tool for the job when we have this huge background in the west where a lot of us get validation and
importance and make our make livingings and you know have brilliance and it’s
encouraged to have kind of a papancha proliferation but when we see and we’re just then it
doesn’t really help to struggle with it and fight it either. that just kind of makes it worse. So, what is your view
and approach to the thinking mind as well? I think it’s a big one for a lot of us.
Working with Thinking Mind
Um, yeah. So, um, uh, before I tell you the most important
thing which is, um, let’s not make a big deal about thinking um, u, and I’ll say
a little about what I mean. First I want to say yes of course there are times when it can serve us well especially in
the case like if so when there’s a lot of thinking going on it could be many causes and conditions the main one for
many people is our minds just aren’t trained and that’s the practice we’re doing so we don’t make a big deal we’re on the path to train it and it will
settle out get better will it become zero I don’t know about that but it can
it can settle out a lot but also so that But there can be times
when it can be interesting just to feel in if there’s really especially something repetitive or there’s an energy or a feeling to it. It might be
let me feel underneath this is and you may or may not get anything but is there something fueling this and then it might
be oh yeah before I came on this retreat or before at home I sat on this I got in
an argument with someone and I’m still feeling h okay ah let’s put our that’s where we need to hang out with our
mindfulness and then maybe it’s like yeah I’ve got some anger I’ve got some fear or resentment or whatever and then
I’ve told people sometimes you know on retreat I would say well Look, if you
want to sit and be with that and let go, fine. But you know what? It might serve you to don’t tell the other teachers I’m
telling you this, but there’s a phone down here I can let you use. Go call the person up, tell them you’re sorry or see
what they see if you can clean it up and then what’s the point of sitting there with that and and then because or do
whatever’s wise and skillful is what I’m saying. So yes, there can be times we want to tend to something to help bring
it down, but to me it’s more in the context of uh I don’t think in terms of
um I think of it like this when we’re practicing the way I mostly work with
people is we have we I I mostly work with what we call meditation objects where there’s some experience like
breathing that you’re putting your attention on. I should say there are some people even in the beginning who do more of an open inclusive non it’s like
you’re resting back in open awareness and more receiving experiences that works for some people but I I I so yes
that’s fine if that works for them most people you put your attention whatever I’ll say the breath you keep coming back
over and over and I’m not worrying about anything else about the thoughts just don’t worry about it because there’s all
kinds of things going on body sensations sounds, moods, emotions, thoughts. What
you’re doing is you’re giving, I would say, a preference or predominance of awareness on that without overly
pushing, but you’re just giving an emphasis there. And everything else you allow just to be in the background
unless it’s you can’t allow it in the background, then we need to work with it. It’s as simple as that. And then we
don’t have to think about just don’t worry. We don’t need to spend time on the thoughts. Just do that and let’s see
what happens as it settles out. Very Oh, and then also that’s combined with to me the most
important meditation instruction there is is ease and relaxation the best you can.
Now, not always easy to do. So, you don’t want to struggle to not struggle. I understand that. But is especially
we’re dealing with physical pain, mental pain. But the best we can, is there anything I can do to help me feel safe
here? Help me feel just as relaxed and at ease as I can. What will do that? And
we could have a whole conversation how you do that. And then checking in several times during a sit. Oh, am I
suffering in the mind? Is there something in the body? What can I do to help me drop into the ease and relaxation? And then if we’re in that
place, we don’t struggle against things so much, including our thoughts. And we just say, “Okay, now let me just
continue with coming here. If thoughts intrude, fine. Let them go. If my mind
won’t stop obsessing about the fact that I’m obsessing, okay, let it go. You just keep coming back.” And and we can hold
it all more lightly. So that that’s kind of to me a way that I would think in general about the thoughts. I understand
other people have a different if you’re practicing in a tradition that says thoughts are a problem then they must
have some methods for you to to work with and I I don’t know what they are but they they’ll tell you to do
something and then you could do that. I don’t know what they would say because if you can stop your thoughts, if you want to stop your thoughts, I’ll say,
“Great.” But then they have the question is, “Well, I don’t know how to do it.”
And then what do I do? And I don’t know. Maybe somebody else knows.
Yeah. Don’t go under anesthesia without a doctor’s permission, right? Uh but I don’t even know if that stops it. You
just won’t be aware that you’re doing anymore. So, bad joke, I guess. Uh yeah. So, Richard, I think we ought to start
Ethics, Remorse & Forgiveness
at least wrapping up a part one here. Those that that was great because um for
for me, yeah, if there’s an overemphasis on it, well, then we’re going to amplify it, right? We’re going to give it more energy and artificially inflate it, too.
But there is a lot more to be said, like you said, uh on this whole thing. For me, it was ethics. uh waking up to the
fact you know what 2012 when I first started how actually bad I was treating
myself and other people around me and had no idea about it. So the the five precepts were, you know, and still are
and absolutely foundational because a lot of interpretations on restlessness
and remorse. A lot of people leave out remorse. And of course there’s a um there’s a healthy remorse and an
unhealthy remorse, right? Um you know the kotapa that’s that’s a helpful thing
and then there’s rumination and beating oneself up. Beating yourself up. Exactly. So yeah, it’s it’s a there’s a
difference there. But for me, yeah, that the early part of my practice was waking up to all this stuff and actually, yeah,
reaching out to people to ask for forgiveness. It was time I went to do it. It was helpful. And and it was even funny how some I don’t even remember
that. Well, I did. So, so either way, it was a huge accelerator, too. And it
can’t forgiveness, I think, can’t be forced. And you can ask for forgiveness. We can forgive and then forgive oneself,
which with the Judeo-Christian background, we’re not really taught that a lot that we can forgive ourselves. Yeah, a huge letting go of a burden. Not to be
forced, not to say they’re act the action should be even tolerated, but
that Yeah. So anyway, these are that that’s just one tiny aspect of what
we’re we’re talking about to help the Yeah. very foundational and fundamental for sure. But there’s
there’s so many different aspects to getting the the mind to to calm and settle and to come into unification
and uh settledness as well. And and then the benefits of that maybe if we do a
part two we can go into well why bother with all this stuff to begin with which is fundamental as well. So
Richard I I I so appreciate your time. I mean we we did this despite the the te technical difficulties online and
offline but that’s life. That’s real life. Yeah. Yeah, it’s great hanging out with you and um just kind of uh you know,
having talking about these things, you know, for me just brings it really alive. So, I’ve really appreciated
getting to know you and hanging out with you. It’s great. Well, great. It’s my pleasure. tell people how they can get in touch with
Contact & Closing Message
you, what kind of offerings you have and what what yeah, what you’ve got going on
and and then take take out a message if you’d like if you have any kind of way to wrap this up or what you’d like to
leave any listeners with if u and it’s okay to pass on that too just so sure well if people want to get in touch
with me let’s see there’s a couple of ways um the or my organization is called
metadharma meta with two T’s like in the poly metadharma foundation and we are
you can go to our website metadharma.org or.com and and through there we have a
weekly group. Um we I I teach retreats a few times a year. Um we do some dayong
just different stuff. So and um everything we do is is is um we do our
weekly thing has got a zoom component so people who aren’t local can participate so people can check that out. Uh it’s a
if you want there’s a place you can if you want to get in touch with me you hit contact and it will um email will come I
would get it or if you just want to email you can just email meta metadharma.org
and and send emails. I’m I uh and I try to respond to people you know if I’m too busy or I I would let people know but
but I try to be responsive. So that’s a way to to get in touch there. And um uh
you know I don’t know that I’ve got to uh I guess I should have some look I
guess if if I wanted to I hadn’t thought about uh like leaving partake uh imparting my wisdom but uh I guess what
comes up for me is um I know it for some of us we can be
particularly hard on ourselves and judge ourselves by how well or poorly good or
bad we think we’re showing up or doing doing it whatever it is and I understand
that but um uh you know how well or poorly we we act in any situation is
really that’s just the conditioned patterns of our minds that’s what we’re working on is shifting the conditioned
patterns and if when that happens what I found useful is to um connect back with
what my sincere as a dharma practitioner my sincere um aspirations or intentions
are and I’ll bet everyone has a good intention and you know whatever your own languaging is of wanting to live in a
way that creates less suffering in the world for yourself, for others, wants to create more well-being for yourself and
for others. And if that’s true for you, even when you’re at your worst,
you can still know that you you really do care about that intention and that’s alive for you. And I find that going
back to that somehow and know that still is my good intention and I’m doing the best I can. We’re all just doing the
best I can. And then and then um is helpful. So we’re not too hard on ourselves and we can still stay attuned,
let that intention kind of be bolster us kind of a thing. So that’s what I would share. It’s been helpful for me.
Well, I could only echo that, Richard. So thank you for that and thank you for everyone listening as well. Bye now.
Okay.
Integrating Presence 