In this swapcast recorded near the Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa (ILTK) https://www.iltk.org Venerable Yudrön (Asokā) of https://youtube.com/@echoesandstoriesofdhamma and I talk a little Buddhist philosophy, monastic training, daily mindfulness practice, and navigating the spiritual path followed by an excerpt from a conversation with Venerable Tenzin Pamo who lives at ILTK.
Many thanks to Venerable Yudrön for taking the time out to invite me to record, the sharing involved and the editting
0:00 – Introduction & Welcome
02:30 – Life & Practice at ILTK
07:15 – Monastic Training & Community Dynamics
13:40 – Integrating Study & Daily Meditation
20:10 – Working Through Obstacles & Doubts
23:30 – Venerable Tenzin Pamo
Some of the Teachers, Historical Figures, Places, Organizations & Communities Mentioned / Referenced:
- Lama Thubten Yeshe (Lama Yeshe – Co-founder of FPMT/ILTK; mentioned for his book When the Chocolate Runs Out)
- Lama Zopa Rinpoche (Co-founder of FPMT, ILTK, Kopan Monastery, and Kopan Nunnery)
- Ajahn Chah / Thai Forest Masters / Luang Por (Referenced in connection with Cittaviveka / Chithurst Buddhist Monastery and teachers who came from the Thai Forest Tradition)
- Dharmakirti (Dharmak in transcript – 7th-century Indian Buddhist philosopher associated with Buddhist logic, epistemology, and valid cognition)
- Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa (ILTK) (Pomaia, Tuscany, Italy)
- FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition)
- Kopan Monastery & Kopan Nunnery (Kathmandu, Nepal)
- Cittaviveka / Chithurst Buddhist Monastery (UK)
- University of Pisa (Academic credit partnership with ILTK)
- Naropa University (Referenced in Boulder, Colorado)
- Dharma Point & Buddhist Publication Bookshop (Local outreach initiatives in Pomaia)
Find more of Venerable Yudrön’s (Asokā) work at:
https://echoesofdhamma.wordpress.com
https://www.instagram.com/echoes_and_stories_of_dhamma
Audio: Inside Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa: Monastic Life, Mind & Meditation With Venerable Yudrön (Asokā)
Timestamps removed from YouTube transcript with no edits via ai:
Hey, wholeness. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and today I’m joined by venerable Udrung. Venerable, how’s it going today?
Oh, it’s wonderful. It’s really wonderful. I’m fine. And um in a beautiful spot as well. You can see behind me.
Let me just let me just jump in real quick. We’re going to publish this on both integrating presence and echoes and stories of Dharma. So venerable, why don’t you explain what’s going on here?
I currently am in northern Tuskanyany at um the institut uh established 1976.
Uh the location is stunning. It’s on the
Tescan Hills and it’s a several century old castle refurbished and uh made
adequate for several monastic sana to to be settled here over
the years. Some resident teachers even have passed away already after staying here 27 30 years.
So institut is belongs to the galuk tradition of
Tibetan Buddhism and the idea in the beginning
was born uh by two masters uh lama who’s known because he wrote
this little book called when the chocolate runs out about happiness basically and uh Lama
and Lama both of them Tibetans who had escaped to Nepal
they both passed away. Lazopar passed away two years two almost three years ago in Nepal. He also was the one who
established Copan monastery on the hills of Kathmandu and Copan Nanary also on
the hills of Kathmandu in Nepal. And so the institute is celebrating this year his its 50th anniversary.
So there’s lots of activities and uh it’s a semi monastic and lay
institute. So it’s not a monastery but it functions as partial monastery with the lay community and there are
lots of activities um like secular Actually,
there also is a a teacher here who used to be in the
Thai forest tradition and knows uh Rampo.
It’s very vibrant and obviously it reminds me of how Cheetah
Monastery was established the same year in the UK.
Uh it has a bit of a similar energy inside.
I’ve been here 10 days and I set on a retreat
that also contains some teachings, some essential teachings, online training
and I have been blessed to be integrated in the nuns community.
So, and reconnect with nuns whom I had met in Bhutan last year in November.
It’s been very vibrant, very intense and beautiful and we also been blessed with beautiful weather. So, this is the end
of the summer in Tuskany and the air is very pure. also have recorded a number of interviews with some of the nuns and I found a beautiful community.
Some of them have had incredible uh journeys through the Himalayas.
Also, interestingly, the nuns community uh counts
14 months altogether and four monks in addition four western monks in addition to the the Tibetan teachers.
So there were more nuns [laughter] than monks, but it’s still not a monastery and it’s definitely not a nand.
So it’s been very it’s been wonderful actually to to listen to them and to to listen to their stories. So I will
integrate some of those uh interviews into our conversation as well.
And thanks for taking the time to uh do that. I’m looking forward to to to hearing all these. I mean that’s quite a
lot of work organizing and then you know almost kind of not convincing but you know and then taking the time and
everything like that. Um did you want to say anything about that or Yes. I real Yes. Actually it’s
interesting when we had the our our conversation last time I had this sense that I was sharing a lot. I’m not used to speak about my journey and my myself.
So I I had a suddenly a thought that hm maybe it’s too much of a personal story
and u and then I arrived here and all these nuns and the teachings and I
said said would you be willing to be part of my introduction to a podcast
where I was on conversation with a host who wanted to know about my journey.
Yes, please. [laughter] And I said and they asked then they said why would you like to do it under that format? I said well I I’m probably going
to use that those interviews in different formats but uh because I thought that I was talking
too much about myself but obviously it’s a paradox because the actual podcast what it was was my my journey and they
said but you know you have to remember that the conditions of the western nuns
in particular compared to other nuns in all traditions is is very specific because we need to find homes for
especially when we don’t speak Tibetan if you are in a Tibetan tradition and so people are interested to hear about
these stories and I said well then even more so I want to add some of some of your our story and I will do that it will require
some editing I’ve had interesting stories and and already I had one of my assumptions it’s not necessarily my own
assumption but it’s it’s a general assumptions that tends to to consider that women tend to ordain late later in life compared to
men. And there some of them have uh a full life not just the work but they have a husband and they have children
and then things happen and you know something causes and condition come together and they decide to become
monastics and the next day I met one of the nuns who arrived from India and she’s a tutor for the debating part of
the master program and I realized she ordained here when
she was 23. So she actually is the eldest in terms of years of ordination.
She’s not the eldest because she’s only 43. The eldest is is beyond 70.
But there are nuns here who have been ordained for 18 and 16, 17, 18, 19 years. So it’s a very particular
community. and all my assumptions or the general assumptions were like completely shattered [laughter] in on in many in many aspects. So it’s
it’s been extremely uh important for me to be here at this stage of my journey and at the
same time to hear those stories. The location here is quite stunning.
Yeah, big yeah as I say that’s that’s awesome. and some other synchronicities here. You know, I heard some uh construction in the
background there. Here I am at a public place u to I was just talking to a um a lay gentleman uh out in the Boston area
and he’s a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner and he’s like he wants to integrate or implement this debating culture uh
somehow in the United States and we were just talking how it is kind of the wild west for Dhamma in the United States
too. So there’s I I’ve talked to people at least in Europe there’s some kind of cultural memory of monasticism even if
it’s just Christian but there’s nothing like that in the United States. So it’d be interesting to see I know we we have some things in Colorado but that’s
that’s for maybe another time. There’s just uh yeah um established in university in um Boulder Colorado.
Yes. But but as far as uh you know it’s very very very new yet. So that’s that but that’s also a huge opportunity for
figuring it out and doing things new cuz as it moves uh it adapts to what what’s around it in some sense. You know what I
mean right? Um so so what what else would you like to share from there? Um you can see behind me here.
So the place is been really blessed. The Dalai Lama, his holiness, the Dalai Lama, I came here uh in 2014.
It’s not just an institute that just been popped popped out of nowhere, I would say. Although it’s in really in
the middle of it’s in a very awkward position in the sense that 20 minutes down the road there is a
highly popular beach and there is also a a chemical uh a chemical factory
uh who’s been established here early in the 20th century and
around surround here is agriurism wine production and things like this.
But we are also in the vicinity of Pisa and we are in the v vicinity of Florence.
So it’s it’s very special. There’s tupas all over the place and there’s there’s
um very large community around. People come from all parts of Italy and you there’s a very strong soul. I
would say it has it it has gone through challenges. It has gone through obstacles and difficulties obviously
over the years it’s 50 years this year but it it keep it keeps going.
[laughter]
It keeps going and also the other remarkable aspect is that it’s in Italy
the only institute semi- mononastic institute which organizes and offers
uh philosophy studies so studying Buddhism.
So there are different types of courses some of them are required to be on presence and some of them are both
online and presence. So there are just ABC of Buddhism if you really want to know about Buddhism. Uh uh there is a
master program. So what has happened is the geisha program. So to become a Buddhist philosophy teacher it takes
about 20 years. That’s what older Tibetan teachers have gone through. When you to be called a gish or to be called
a kempo, you have list not just being a monk for 20 years but you have studied the Buddhist philosophy which is
extremely intricated and complex. It comes from the Nanda tradition.
What is very unique here is that they have combined they have condensed that into
six to nine years and the beginning program is called the basic program and then there is a master
program master program runs for six years it’s everything of Buddhist philosophy starting with abidama kosha and
everything so it’s self-based and it can online and in presence and that’s unique because also the other
aspect that makes it unique is that it is uh connected with the universities of
Pisa. So at the University of Pisa you can take some of these courses as credits.
I think that’s great because I I hear some hesitation from people that have a hesitation to ordain is that oh what
happens if I ever disrobe then I have to start over from zero right? um which is it’s it’s to me it’s a false fear
because the comma that’s generated is so good you’re you’re going to be okay no matter what right however you know
that’s a nice addition I feel to that and I just wanted to comment real briefly on um our prior conversation
about um you know telling it from a personal aspect yes on one hand I agree you know we we both love dhamma topics
and it’s all about you know the impersonal truth of reality the way things are and how the heart is around
it. Of course, however, you know, not um people still connect to personal stories, right? And um ordaining is a
really is a really pivotal point in someone’s life uh that so many people can connect to that so many people can
be brought through the dharm dharma to dharmatu and be inspired by and within that that is a type of uh dharma
teaching in itself. So yeah, it’s a good practice to how to hold that. Yeah, cuz because I can see it both ways. Sure.
Pomaya, there is one bar, one grocery, which also has a bit of a
restaurant, also serves meals at meal time in town. And there is a salad tabaki, which is basically originally in Italy, the place where you would go and
buy your cigarettes, salt, pay the taxes, and essentials. is really very small. But it also this this morning I
bought something for the cats here because there’s also community of cats and he’s also operating like a tiny tiny
supermarket and there’s a church and that’s it. There’s nothing else. So it’s basically on the provincial road a few
houses and then there is there are two things more which are initiatives
at least one of them is the initiative of the institute there is a dharma outreach. So there is a
tiny uh window a door and a window in town which is called Dharma Point and
Dharma Point some of the monastic two female monastics and two male monastics one British monitalian
volunteer to go and do counseling so people can come in and so instead of having a proper trip see work there’s a
schedule and they are open at certain time and people can come in and ask and and you know uh there’s obviously bound by confidentiality and things like this.
So that’s called Dharma Point and next to it two two windows after uh there is a Buddhist uh publication
bookshop [laughter] they publish books and things like this.
So walking through the village, people say hello, people know this is for me as an Italian, it’s extremely awkward.
[laughter]
I’m I’m learning to to do this in Italy.
Anyway, so this is and then I think there is an opportunity. There are some some monastics are thinking of opening a
a death cafe. A death cafe would be something additional to the dharma point where people can start coming and
talking removing the taboo of talking about death. Something like this. So outreach activity. Yeah.
I thought a cat cafe was maybe overly novel but the death cafe. Yeah. I just I I have to watch myself. Sometimes I talk
about it and and people are like oh don’t say that don’t say that. No let me explain. Yeah. So that’s great to to
normalize that more you know and and just also to be precise the master program and the basic program is it’s open to lay and monastics right it’s
it’s uh it’s it’s not necessarily only for monastics but it’s actually there are more than monastics doing it and um
so Buddhist philosophy includes not just the texts and everything but it includes
the possibility of learning uh Buddhist logic, Buddhist region, Buddhist logic reasoning. So it’s called
valid cognition. How do you use the knowledge you have and how do you present a topic? How do you explain
impermanence? And how do you actually logically explain imper not just by saying give an example yeah you have a friend one day and you don’t have a
friend the next day blah blah blah but you actually use what the sages in India
dharmak have been using 3,000 years ago I mean that’s number one and this second
aspect is the debating. So now after I finish talking to you, I’m going to interview the nand who’s the youngest
one actually. She’s been ordained for the longest but she’s the youngest one who lives in India and he’s here because she’s a tutor in
debating and just I said I really want to I understand what you guys are talking when you have debating cuz I’ve
only seen debating ex witnessing debating in Tibetan in Daram Salah or somewhere you can see the debating and they you know they clapping their hand
and I understood what this clapping the hand is because she said yeah this is how it works is bas basically removing
I’m just removing the ignorance from you and I I bring out the wisdom out of you things like this. So
this is this is at the center of the Buddhist philosophy is how you present topics and how do you answer question by staying focused on topic.
Yeah. Yeah. I have I have a challenging time doing that too. Um, and you have to be familiar, I would imagine, in the debate with all the different opposing
schools and what their counter argument is going to be. And then you’ll have a counterargument to that counterargument.
But it will be it will be more spontaneous because you’ll just rely on your own innate wisdom eventually. You won’t have to even think about it. It
will just come out, you know, emerge from wisdom eventually. I think so. We can have another podcast in a year time. So I might be able to talk to
more about this when I finish this uh this module of the master program. One of the result of me being here is that I
said okay how can I do this because I really want to learn this and they said well you just enroll in the one module of the master program and you can do it
online and many people do it online. So this is what happens after an ordination. They say that
there’s a m there’s not just causes and conditions that made possible for you to ordain at a certain time but they it is
said that once you ordain please don’t make initial choices because things can go all over the place
because it’s like popping up a bubble water karma maturing or how do you say a
ripening it’s just and indeed it’s been like this I’ve been here only 10 days and I feel I’ve been here forever not
because it’s been boring but because it’s been extremely extremely productive and karmic seed were planted. Um it’s
part of the mind training right because the courses the course I’ve taken is mind training and as Buddhist when we talk we know that Buddhism is all about
mind training but mind training in what there isn’t just about calming calm
abiding there is more is is how do you wake up in the morning and apply that oh
I’m so happy I’m alive why would you wake up isn’t that normal that you like well it you can’t take it for granted you don’t know at the end of
the day reflect on everything you have done because you don’t know whether you’re going to wake up wake up again things like this as simple as that
and that’s the death cafe death cafe thing too that’s a death cafe but also the mind training is really about seeing the
dharma in everyday life every you know like reminds me of the Buddha saying each half breath being
mindful of each half breath because there’s no guarantee the next half breath will that this body will still
you know have a heartbeating um and to me that’s what the death contemplation is it just realize how much I have taken for granted but every moment is a new
moment to be heatful and mindful and to train the mind and heart yeah so beautiful okay yes I am going to try to see
whether I would love to walk slowly and show you the background of the institute. I’m going to try.
Let’s do that. Okay, I’m going to try.
See behind me.
They are building an additional stuper.
I definitely hear it. Uh, and I saw it, too.
All right, I think we made it and I think we can leave it now.
That’s right. Yeah, it’s real life. I had to be at a cafe this morning and we have real construction, too. So, with
that, um, enjoy the rest of the video, everyone.
Okay. Being Yeah. Well, being a nun is really great. I totally agree. And it was the best choice in my life and I and
I never regret it. And I I would agree that there are of course there are challenges and you you you have to give
up some kind of certainty or you know security or you you you never know how your life will develop in and in which
country you will end up and in which place you will end up. But Buddha himself said that if you keep the vows purely then you know then you will
always have something to eat and then sink will take care of themselves. And in my case it is certainly true and also
you know giving up uh things people usually want to have in their lives like house and and money and partner and it
might sound scary like you might ask yourself the question okay so what I am left with then but what what you are
left with then it’s like the all the richness all or the all the treasury of you know of your own mind and of you
know looking at the world from like from the the perspective of no no needs and
you know let’s let’s see what what will happen you know without I need it to be this way I needed to be this way I let’s just let’s let’s see what will happen
and this this gives immense joy at least to me you know and limiting the like the
positions you you can see the amazing movie of your own mind you know having
less uh distraction s or you know less interesting thing outside you will end up you know watching what is most
interesting and that’s your inner world and this is something which never stopped fascinating me really that’s a very nice way of putting it I
think it’s the first time I hear it this way [laughter] yes I mean for women to decide to ordain it seems like there’s sometimes so much
more than there might be for men or maybe am I am I just too much of a woman when I say that From what I understand, it takes like it’s more difficult for
women you think or maybe I’m not. Yeah, it’s it’s more it’s more difficult in the sense that maybe for western women
because you know yourself know when you go to you you ordained in the Himalayan tradition and you’re doing this in the
Himalayas it’s it’s you know there there already isn’t a language barrier and they do it sometimes they do it because
traditionally at some point there there are too many people in the in there too many people in the family or it’s a way of guaranteeing some sort of support
but even though women, we as a western women, we don’t have many that many choices of where to go and how to do it. Yeah.
Am I am I exaggerating or did you did you have the same the same view on that?
And that’s why maybe for women it’s a little more tricky.
Women also tend to come at a later stage.
Mhm. Yeah. Well, that that’s probably true. Even though the monks here at the institute, it will be I think the same
average age as as nuns here. But then I know about mon a monastery in France a
PMT monastery and they have young monks but it’s more difficult to find young nuns. So it’s probably true what you are
saying even though I didn’t think about it but I would say that within the FBMT it’s I mean I don’t have the experience
that it would be more difficult for me because I am a woman. I I don’t I I myself don’t have this you also maybe
because I was always very fortunate that all my teachers perceive men and women as equal you know without any difference
whatsoever and here at the institute we have equal opportunities in terms of education you know in in terms of uh
assisting with things I I I I don’t really think that it would be better to be a monk here. I I I see this maybe
more in Tibetan society still even though now now the nuns can study to become Gish Gishas
and but you know may maybe no I I don’t know I don’t know what more I could say
because I I I I never really felt that it would be more difficult for me because I’m a woman. That’s very good.
Yes. I think I’m you’re good. you’re a good ro role model as well for for young for young women. And and one last point,
what how do you see monasticism in in contemporary society as a nun? Do you really think
monasticism is important or is it is it really did it ever occur to you that you could have studied the dharma as a lay
person or do you really wanted to become a nun?
I really wanted to become a nun. You know, for me there was no question. it it came almost uh at the same time you
know I I wanted to go deeper in the dharma and I wanted to ordain I feel that the the vows have enormous power
like it’s not you know I can connect to people and I think it’s it is because of my my vows and what what really attract people to me it’s not my personality
because I’m very ordinary but it’s my you know my my vows and and the ethic I chose and basically Buddha himself gave
us this example. You know, if if monasticism was something, you know, redundant, then why would our teacher himself became a monk? And you know, so
the closest disciples, those who were most attracted and who really thought that the dharma was the most important
thing in their life, they they left the householders life and they follow that way. So I think this is far this is really the best if if one is really
serious and if one doesn’t have any obstacles. Of course, it’s not for everybody. I don’t think everybody should become a monk or a nun. But if
you you know if you feel that you are able you know that you that you are so much attracted to dharma that you are able to leave the worldly life then this
is definitely the best because it gives you freedom. You know it’s enormous freedom to be a monk or a nun. I think
you know there are so many things you don’t have to do anymore. You don’t have to think about anymore. So definitely I would recommend it you know.
Thank you for this. Thank you. So being a nun is great. Oh yes, being a nun is great. Yes.
Integrating Presence 