(Ai assisted summary/description:) In this candid and expansive conversation I reconnect with Ivor “Gently”—writer, meditator, and deep contemplative—who shares the extraordinary journey that led him from a mainstream life to a radical shift in perception and purpose. What begins as a tale of inner restlessness unfolds into a profound spiritual emergency, filled with synchronicity, energetic upheaval, and the collapse of a materialist worldview
We explore:
- The intuitive unraveling of identity and belief systems
- Sudden versus gradual awakenings
- The role of long-term vs. short-term thinking in ethical decision-making
- How real transformation demands both radical responsibility and humble openness
- The dynamic tension between individual growth and collective well-being
- Meditation as intuitive surrender—not just technique
Ivor brings a fresh, heartfelt perspective to the spiritual path, grounded in real-life challenges and supported by intense meditative discipline. Whether you’re a seasoned practitioner or just exploring mindfulness, this episode invites deep reflection on how we live, choose, and grow.
🧭 Topics: Insight meditation, spiritual emergency, karma, intuition, Buddhist retreat experiences, cause & effect, and what it means to live for the whole rather than just the self.
🧘♂️ Find out how trusting your gut might be your most powerful guide.
Audio: Catalysts For Awakening And Change Series: From Autopilot To Awareness: Ivor “Gently’s” Inner Upheaval Into Intuition, Insight And Radical Responsibility
Unedited transcript via Riverside.fm:
Josh Dippold (00:01.494)
Holness welcome. This is Josh, Interskilled and Integrating Presence. And today I’m joined by Ivor. Ivor, what’s happening?
Ivor (00:10.898)
Hey Josh, nice to see you again.
Josh Dippold (00:13.662)
Likewise, Ivor and I, let’s just, his pen name, right, Ivor Gently, which I think is a really beautiful pen name there. And Ivor and I met like roughly over two years ago now at Amravati, which is a Buddhist monastery outside of London in the Thai forest tradition of Ajahn Chah. We had some quite lively conversations, I’ll say that. We actually kind of butted heads on something. I don’t know if
Ivor (00:15.422)
His pin name, right? I for Jit.
Josh Dippold (00:42.478)
We’re going to go into that today or not, probably not. So I invited him to do this. thanks for doing this, because we were talking before the show. This takes a somewhat degree of courage. Some people won’t even ever consider anything like this. But some people doing it the first time, it does take a little bit of courage, even though maybe two or three people might see it. But who knows? Thousands, you never know, really. So why don’t you tell people about the standard question. I’ll stick with, who’s Ivor?
Ivor (01:06.686)
So why don’t you tell people about, and this is standard question I’ll stick with.
Josh Dippold (01:11.49)
What kind of work does he do?
Ivor (01:13.694)
Yeah, it’s a tricky question for me, right? You can answer it in many ways. You know, in my typical answer, actually, when it comes to anything that I produce, it’s almost like it doesn’t matter who I am, right? It’s about what you’re saying, it’s about what you’re like, if you’re writing a book, it’s about what the book says rather than who you are.
And to me, it’s almost like it’s a bit of a problem that all of us have in society when we focus too much on individuals and not enough on what they’re saying or what they’re doing or what they’re… Even in politics, It’s all about character rather than… Or perceived character rather than the actual thing that they’re promoting.
But but okay, I’m gonna I’m gonna follow the format so basically I would say I spent the first 30 days 30 years of my life like kind of being a very very mainstream kind of normie Having that kind of life and Then certain things clicked not to go into too much detail but
basically I underwent a like what I would consider a very deep transformation where everything basically changed my perception of reality changed and it was almost like I started my life from the beginning it was really like another person from that point on so that was about 20 years ago
And so the first 30 years of my life I don’t even want to talk about it because in a way it’s like I kind of identify with that. In a way I could almost say that was kind of a waste. But you can also say that nothing is really a waste and you needed all of that. And then for the last, since that transition it’s really been about the spiritual realm.
Ivor (03:35.185)
Broadly speaking.
And yeah, I tend to live quite a hermetic life, you know, that I try to interact with external reality or with the society as little as possible, but it just kind of comes naturally. Like I just prefer to stay as much out of it as I possibly can. And…
And yeah, just kind of try to interact with reality on a very intuitive way. And I would say really focus more on the being than on the doing.
Josh Dippold (04:26.039)
Well, right on. Now, when you say hermetic life, you don’t mean that’s as kind of like a hermit would, not the esoteric hermeticism, right? You’re probably familiar with hermeticism too, which is, they are, I mean, you can be a herm…
a hermit into hermeticism, or you can be a hermeticist that’s very public and outgoing, right? So you’re talking about just being a hermit. I have actually studied a little bit of hermeticism, but that might be besides the point.
So let’s talk about, I think the question that’s dying to be posed here, if I can use that phrase, what brought about this change, this huge change? Because it’s it’s kind of similar in my life. I had this huge transformation happen in my life as well. So in a way, it’s quite similar. Would you be comfortable with mentioning anything about that and what happened and what got, what?
Ivor (05:24.285)
Sure.
Josh Dippold (05:29.815)
turns you down the path that you’re down today, if that’s the right way to put it.
Ivor (05:35.685)
Yeah, I would say I was, you know, the environment where I grew up, which was basically in Central Europe, in a very normal, you know, very mainstream family, kind of atheistic, materialistic, like there was nothing spiritual or esoteric or anything like that whatsoever. And very kind of, I was always
rational, know, very rational into all these analytical or logical things, so very mind oriented, left brain oriented.
So I was in an environment which is very different from where I am now but it’s almost like that environment didn’t allow me to go into that direction, into the spiritual direction but I would say it was always kind of brewing, you know, there were like hints here and there, were like glimpses I remember I would watch a movie, something like for example the first time I watched Vanilla Sky and I was like wow, this is like and it had all kinds of weird sensations
that I never had before. You it’s like something hits you. It’s like you get something which you can’t really explain. You feel, wow, there’s something here. So there were those kinds of things happening. And then there was just an overwhelming feeling that the life that I’m living, which was kind of very mainstream, you know, you could say fairly successful. I was an IT consultant, you know, very comfortable in all ways.
And most people thought, wow, he’s doing really good. And for me, there was this really strong nagging feeling like, what am I doing? It’s like I’m living on autopilot. And it wasn’t something that I chose. It wasn’t a result of anything I read or any people that I met. It was just a strong inner feeling. And then it just became stronger and stronger. And finally, I couldn’t even stay in that job. So I just…
Ivor (07:41.211)
left everything and I went traveling and then during that travel basically the whole kind of structure of my life you could say the ego structure but not just in a psychological sense also in the sense of my conception of reality and how it works it just completely collapsed so that at some points it felt I actually was kind of worried about my mental sanity I thought I was going crazy
Because some parts of that experience seemed at that time almost like paranoid schizophrenia. You know, for example, I’ll give you an example just to illustrate what I mean. I saw that there was a very clear connection between my inner processes, like my thoughts, and what was actually happening externally, like in real time, right? Which my previous model of reality just didn’t allow for that.
So when you see that it’s like, okay, is this Truman show is like what’s going on, right? So it’s that kind of it’s because I especially because I wasn’t ready But someone who’s been in contact with this with those kinds of notions You know might not feel that that’s so strange But for me that was just so so beyond anything that that I that I thought was possible That it just collapsed my whole world worldview
Which until that point, like I said, was very materialistic, very kind of… I’m not too good with these philosophical concepts, but I don’t know if there’s a thing that’s called randomistic, like the random universe, the idea that… Maybe it’s called determinism. I don’t know what it’s called, but the idea that things are happening randomly and there’s a separation between my internal life…
and the external life, right? That was my previous understanding of how reality works and there was absolutely no doubt that that’s how it works and then my actual experience was just like in my face completely clear that that’s just not how it is but like I would literally have a thought and then like two seconds later that thing happened and it just it wasn’t just one thing it just kept happening, right? So
Ivor (10:08.542)
That’s kind of what triggered this. I mean that was a part of it. There were also all kinds of physical or you could say physio-psychological things happening like all kinds of very intense sensations and you know people would call it energies or openings or It was like you know I think some people call it a spiritual emergency Which then goes into spiritual emergence
It felt like a breakdown, it felt like it could have been a breakdown. And I think if I was in a wrong situation, I could have ended up in a mental institution. And I would say many people who are in mental institutions have probably gone under some kind of process like that and just kind of couldn’t find the right angle.
Josh Dippold (10:49.006)
you
Josh Dippold (11:01.806)
Well, I like this term spiritual emergency because you’re illustrated so well. If there’s no reference points before, you’ve lived this way, that separation you’re talking about, and then all of a sudden some very profound things start happening.
It happens so quickly, it’s not as gradual as some people do in their practice, right? Some people are in practice to gradually wake up over a long time and some people have sudden awakenings. I don’t know if it’s a true awakening, but something happened where it happened quickly and some people call these things like Kundalini Syndrome.
where this force will rise so quick and one’s not really prepared to deal with it, doesn’t have any reference points, hasn’t read or had spiritual teachings that talk about this mirroring effect you’re talking about, like I guess you’d call law of reciprocity or as within, as without. mean, some people take these teachings too as metaphorical or only maybe 3 % or 5 % of that, right? But sometimes they can be
quite dramatic and then the amount of synchronicity that can happen too. Certain things can be quite synchronic, synchronous, I don’t know the word here. A lot of synchronicity can happen in a short amount of time and that can be very…
confusing and puzzling too. So how did you eventually deal with this? you tell anybody about it? Did you start studying? When this stuff started happening, how did you go about it? Did you mention it to anyone? How did you know who to talk to and who not to talk to about it as well? Yeah.
Ivor (12:56.765)
Well, it’s interesting, you you kind of transported me back into that point of time, which was a very special time in my life. Right, because it is really like the feeling of, wow, I was blind and now I can see, you know. I mean, that was a part of it. And then the other part was like deep confusion and even kind of worry, like what’s going on with me. And then, so this was in Thailand, actually.
on the island of Koh Phangan on like a pretty remote beach which in and of itself was like it was actually a perfect place for that kind of thing and then there was a guy living in the bungalow next to me with a shaved head and like really sparkling eyes
And you know, I never talked to him, I noticed him, and he noticed me, and then one day I just decided I’m just gonna go and talk to him. And I just told him for no special reason what’s going on, and he looks at me and he says, have you met God? I’m like, what do you mean? And basically, so up until that point, I wasn’t really even familiar with anything about Buddhism or any other religion for that matter, even though like, know, nominally.
I was supposed to be Catholic, but I was never interested in any of that So I knew nothing about Buddhism or anything, know, it wasn’t interested at all but then he gave me some books and there was a Buddhist meditation retreat on the island and There was there was like an actual 10-day retreat in just starting in a few days and I was like, know what? I’m gonna try that and and so and and that guy really seemed to kind of know something that I didn’t know
So that’s how I started meditating. And I think that really kind of stabilized me, you know, because then you see actually all of these things that you’ve been kind of intuitively, you know, downloading. Well, I mean, they’re all in the, you know, the Buddha was talking about that, right? So that kind of made me realize, okay, I’m probably not going crazy.
Ivor (15:12.115)
This is just really some kind of an intuitive opening that I’m going through. And then over time things just stabilized. So after this happened, I really started meditating a lot. And my format was doing meditation retreats, usually 10 days. And I would just do them sometimes back to back. I think in the first two years I probably did like 15 of them. At least 10, maybe 15.
And that became, you know, basically what my life was about. And I would say to some extent it never changed, you know. At some point, so that was 20 years ago, so at some points, you know, I did kind of get lost again in the world of Babylon. But I never really lost that connection. And I would say over time it only kind of became, things became clearer and just calmer.
you know, just normal.
Josh Dippold (16:16.559)
We’re right on. So I, can just say this, right? Go Inca. This is, this was a Go Inca retreat that was going on in this island. No, it was something else. Okay.
Ivor (16:16.991)
So.
Ivor (16:23.036)
No, no, this was, no, it was something else, yeah.
Josh Dippold (16:27.631)
I was going say, because usually a GoInco practitioner wouldn’t mention God, one of the first things. I would think that would be highly unlikely, or maybe not. I don’t know. But you have done that tradition too. So you’re, would say, a fairly hardcore meditator, or was at one time. I mean, you have a deep sitting practice, from what I remember talking to you. So I guess…
Ivor (16:34.183)
Right.
Josh Dippold (16:52.621)
That’s what I’m most interested in. I guess tell me about your practice, you know, from when you first started to if you have a daily sitting practice, the different retreats you’ve gone on.
I guess if you’ve had any teachers, just basically anything you want to say about it. And then what have you been practicing lately? And then if, I guess maybe any quote unquote successes or breakthroughs or maybe aim of practice. So just basically anything you want to say about it, I think.
Ivor (17:26.001)
Okay, so the retreat on Koh Phangan was run by a Western couple. So it was within a Buddhist monastery on the island, but they themselves were not monks and nuns because they were married. But they were organizing the retreat, so it was definitely not typical. And it was very much focused, so it was a 10-day retreat which they called Vipassana retreat.
But there was a lot of what they call loving kindness meditation, guess what people would call a meta practice.
And I would say I was blessed by being introduced to the world of spirituality and Buddhism through that kind of quite unconventional, like non-sectarian way. Right? Because they weren’t into building their own group and building a of a cult. There was nothing sectarian about it. They were just holding retreats. I mean, okay, they did have some assistance and…
You know, they did have their own group, but it wasn’t about
kind of increasing their little thing, their little fringe Buddhist sect.
Ivor (18:44.807)
And they encouraged people to go to other retreats, which I did, right? So I went to a few different retreats. So I went to a place called, all in Thailand, there’s a place called Suan Mok that is based on the teachings of Ajahn Budhadassa. And then there’s another place in the north, which is also kind of associated with Budhadassa, but slightly different. That was in Doi Sutep. I think now they do it in another place, but I forgot the name.
And then I went into Gwenca. So I saw that each of those places were kind of doing their own thing, right? Both theoretically they were kind of focusing on different things and also practically. Like for example some people, some of them would do a lot of walking meditation, kind of half walking, half sitting. Some of them would do no walking meditation at all.
Some of them would do a lot of concentration, like Samatha practices. Some of them would really say that the Samatha is just preparation for reflection, right, the wise reflection, which they included meta practices in that. And, you know, some people say, you know, there is a popular opinion that if you do too many different things, you’re never really gonna deep.
dig a hole deep enough and I see that point. But from my perspective I think it was really beneficial to see all these different ways of looking at it. Because I think that really, and that just works with my personality because I do like to have a free mind, know, really allow myself to explore everything and not fall into any bubbles.
Josh Dippold (20:37.679)
Well, how do you know what to go deep on if you’ve only had just a sampling of a couple things? You know, if you happen to get it right right off the bat, then you’re really fortunate. But if you get into something that you commit to for a long time, that’s, you know, going to take you far where you need to be, then yeah, it helps, especially starting off to familiarize yourself or oneself with a huge territory and then yeah, then choose from there, I feel, you know, like so I’m on the same page as you.
Ivor (21:06.407)
Hmm. Yeah, and I saw, know, in some of these, let’s call it traditions or branches, you know, they’re very specific about this is the only way to do it and all the other ways are pretty much wrong or are not going to lead to a good result. And so, you know, I had the benefit of seeing other things beforehand so that I knew this was not really, this doesn’t work for me, right?
But let’s say if you start in that kind of a tradition that has this kind of view, this is the only way, this is the only right way.
it may be likely that you’re going to be limited in your understanding.
Josh Dippold (21:54.245)
Yeah, this is what I tell people. mean, that’s a huge claim because I’ve met a few that is traditions, lines of approach that make that huge claim. that’s it really gets the attention, obviously. And so the way I look at that is if they’re right,
If it doesn’t say they happen to be right, well, then I’m going to miss out big time. However, if, they’re wrong and then I buy into that and then it’s almost like, okay, well, I just.
That’s not completely true. So it’s really hard to know, you know, so I don’t want to be totally dismissive, but it’s a high bar, right? That’s a huge claim. If you’re going to make that claim, you better be, you know, super serious about keeping it because that’s it. I don’t know of any other claim that could be as strong as that.
Yeah, I don’t, my heart doesn’t leap up at people that make that claim. However, if I were to have some kind of defense to it, if it really is, then it will give it could give people a really good motivation to stay with it. However, it’s not the good it’s not a way to bring in beginners, you know what I mean? And it’s
Yeah, we can all see the downsides of that, think. I just don’t want to write it off wholesale because if they really, if it somehow happens to be, well, then I’m the one and everybody else is missing out for not doing it. So this is why what this whole thing is pointing to is discernment. So is my wisdom and discernment sharp enough to know with absolute certainty the same degree of certainty that they’re claiming? And I would say, no, my wisdom and discernment is not on that level.
Ivor (23:18.527)
Some happen.
Josh Dippold (23:40.841)
where I could make be 100 % sure one way or another. You know what I mean? So that makes it even more challenging for me. But I would just recognize, OK, my level of discernment and wisdom is not enough to make that call. And if it’s not a cult, I will go check them out and just incorporate what’s useful from that. And until I can make that call, then I don’t need to make that call. You know what I mean? I will just, OK, that’s that. And so, yeah.
Ivor (23:57.569)
them out and just incorporate what’s useful from that and until I can make that call, then I don’t need to make that call. You know what I mean? I will just, okay, that’s that. And so, yeah.
Josh Dippold (24:09.61)
find my place in whatever, you know, so yeah, these are these are all really good points. So I guess now what is your do you so you talk more about intuitive. So, you know, for years of my practice, what I was doing is when I was sitting down every day to practice, I would just
Ivor (24:12.212)
Yeah, these are all really good points. So I guess now what is your…
Josh Dippold (24:30.976)
say either right before I sat down or when I sat down, okay, this is what I need to focus on in my meditation. And then that would be the meditation. And there was lot of upsides to that. But for the past few years, I have just been doing a strict Samha to practice because I haven’t stuck.
been that committed with one thing in my practice. So I thought I would give it a go doing a dedicated thing on a Panasati, traditional Vasudev Manga, and just give it a go for a while. So tell me about your practice today then and how you approach practice. And then if you want to incorporate that into the intuition we were talking about before too.
Ivor (25:12.104)
Yeah, so just to add something to the previous conversation about what’s the right path. Well, I would say there’s a few fundamental questions. One is the kind of the nature of knowing. How do we know anything? There’s the discernment. There’s the analytical, logical knowing.
And I would say there’s intuition which is quite separate for me. It’s really feeling based. It’s difficult to put your finger on it. It’s like gut knowing. And so that’s really where I trust that more than I trust anything that my mind says or that any other person says. And I’m kind of happy. I I obviously tried both approaches but overall I’m happier with the results that I get when I follow my gut.
my intuition, okay, what feels right? And to me it just doesn’t feel right when someone else is telling me how to meditate, like it’s just not really acceptable. Because I feel the whole point of meditation for me is to really not do anything to let it be done by itself. I don’t know, maybe that’s not the best way to phrase it, but.
to not even direct my attention but to completely let go and let that other force, whatever you want to call it, the not me, kind of take over. And I would say all the big insights that I had were never a result of me thinking about stuff. It was always what felt like a spontaneous download, just like a spark.
And so that’s really what I trust. And I feel even defining, like if you say this is the right path, okay, the right path to where? I mean, do we even agree on where we’re actually going, right? Because then the same people who tell you this is the right path, then they will also define the goal, right? Which they will usually say, it’s enlightenment or something like that.
Ivor (27:25.248)
And I would even question that premise, you what does that even mean? Like what does that look like? There’s a lot of assumptions here which are not actually intuitive. You need to mentally and intellectually accept a certain concept that you don’t actually know is true in order to even follow that kind of an approach. And so to me what feels much better is just to really be down to earth as much as possible and just take it day by day.
and see the improvements in my life, like that’s really for me that’s the goal, you know? I see there’s an aspect of my life that doesn’t work well and that’s what I want to change and for me that’s good enough and that is the goal as far as I’m concerned. You know, I don’t even want to think about enlightenment. I mean that’s just another concept. Not to put it down, I’m not saying it’s made up, but it’s just it’s just too far from my actual experience.
And I think it could be a trap, you know, it could be just a trap of the mind where the mind uses, in a way it’s almost like another form of separation, right? Because that concept separates you from the here and now. And for me it’s like this, you know, this is the point, right? And then this then translates to the kind of practice that I want to be doing. I want to be doing the kind of practice that helps me have a better life.
tomorrow and next week and again it’s a question of definition what does that even mean a better life well I would say it means more peace of mind it means more clarity like very practical things even like material things it means more abundance it means just better physical health, emotional health like simple things it doesn’t have to be super grandiose
Right? And I think many people maybe, you know, their view of enlightenment is that it’s something very special and like, you know, super extraordinary, when in fact, maybe that’s not what it is or what it needs to be at all, you know? Maybe it is more about something that’s actually very natural to us.
Ivor (29:51.553)
This is why I really always like the teachings of Ajahn Sumaito because that’s how I understand him Right like like some of the things he says is basically enlightenment is now and
I don’t wanna misquote him. But to me, I’m kinda closer to the approach that is less directed at something very special. Does that make sense?
Josh Dippold (30:22.129)
Yeah, it does. There’s so much you put in there. Yes, first off, I want to agree with you that it needs to be beneficial, right? So what you’re talking about, in my experience, have actually just been the side effects of meditation. Another approach, I’ll probably make a little bullet points here, is this all for me?
Am I doing this for my own ends or am I doing this for my own welfare and happiness? But that will also be for the welfare and happiness of others. And then the big thing though is long-term, you know. So if we go into this notion of past lives, future lives, and no discernible beginning, no discernible end,
You know, and it’s it’s it’s if that’s the case and it’s even crazier how we’ve forgotten all this, you know, so for me, my personal thing, yeah, it’s great to improve my life and it has improved my life. But at the end of the day, is it if that is the case where it’s just lifetime after lifetime, then how does that help me in the really long term? You know what I mean? Yeah, it seems like it’s going to have that. The other thing that came up when you’re talking there is faith, you know.
Ivor (31:29.406)
No.
Josh Dippold (31:36.242)
So this is a huge thing on the path that I really don’t have I’m working on faith right now too because there’s just certain things that are beyond me, you know, and this is where I can look at people on the path and I look at them not to put them on a pedestal or something, but you can kind of see how they are. They exemplify things, you know, they’re like a living embodiment of what’s possible. I mean, I guess we don’t have as many of these role models and practitioners, but there are very wise people, very loving people in the world.
that I’m nowhere near, not that we need to copy them or anything, but these are people that we can consult and bounce off to get their feedback because, I totally agree with the intuition and knowing. However, I would say that until I have a certain degree of clarity and think purity, then what my intuition will say will not always be the
best thing. not saying the analytical mind will either, you know what I mean? So yes, why I know that even some of these suit to you know, truth has to be known like in the body ultimately. But if there’s anything
You know, how does that work? My wisdom isn’t there to know how that works. You know what I mean? Also, if we go into like metaphysical things and I just open myself up to whatever there is, then some things in the unseen world that I don’t know how operate, you know, how do I know for sure that some kind of forces or causes and conditions are acting through me or, you know, either for my benefit or not for my benefit. So that’s a whole nother realm that I
Ivor (32:57.377)
Also, if we go into metaphysical things and I just open myself up to whatever there is, then some things in the unseen world that I don’t know how operate, how do I know for sure that some kind of forces are causing
Josh Dippold (33:22.233)
not qualified to know about, but I know some people that are and I can see kind of the access to information that they have and in their practice and what they’re capable of that they can tap into things that I’m not capable of now. So just because I can’t see it and know it in my experience doesn’t mean that it’s not there and something to pay attention to.
Ivor (33:28.385)
see the access to information that they have in their practice and what they’re capable of that they can tell.
Josh Dippold (33:47.79)
So those are a few things. There was a few other things that were in there, what you said, but those are things that I want to raise. Like, I guess the biggest thing is where is faith on your path and have you identified certain people or things in your life that you want to aspire to? I think the other thing to mention is this notion of, yeah, this, is kind of almost heady and abstract in a way. I think there’s a clearly defined thing in Therabata though, stream entry, you know, this is something that’s more relatable to people.
Ivor (33:47.81)
Those are a few things. There were a other things that were in there that you said, but those are things that I want to raise. Like, I guess the biggest thing is, where is faith on your path? And have you identified certain people or things in
Oh, I think the other thing to mention is this notion of the black, yeah, it is kind of almost heady and abstract in a way. I think there’s a clearly defined thing in here about those stream entries, you know. This is something that’s more relatable to people.
Josh Dippold (34:17.773)
and it’s more clearly defined and capable and I think it’s doable. One of the things of Dhamma is it’s…
visible here and now. You don’t have to wait. You can verify it. It has to be verified. Like you’re saying, the most important thing you’re saying, I feel, is that this all needs to be seen and known for oneself. We can’t go to an outside source to get ultimate authority and have it handed down. This needs to be seen and known for each wise one for themselves. And like you mentioned the Kalama Sutra to me, too, it needs to be for the long-term welfare and happiness of myself and others. But how long term are we going to go?
and he also says you have to see and know it for yourself in that sutta too. So all these things are… and then with the analytical mind one thing I might also put to you is how do you see merging these things or do you see it’s helpful instead of splitting off the analytical mind or the tendency, left brain tendencies and then with the spiritual? Is there a way to bring these together?
Ivor (35:03.425)
So all these things are, and then with the analytical mind, one thing I might also put to you is, how do you see merging these things? Do you see it’s helpful instead of splitting off analytical mind?
Josh Dippold (35:26.159)
do you see or do they need to be kept separate in one kind of vilified and the other raised up and pursued? Or how do you see that kind of dichotomy?
Ivor (35:39.297)
There’s so much there, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Dippold (35:40.015)
So lots of stuff there, I know. That all came from what you were talking to as well. So yeah, any of that’s cool to address.
Ivor (35:48.477)
Okay, so let’s start with faith.
Ivor (35:54.773)
You know, I think real faith is actually knowing.
Ivor (36:00.979)
When you have true faith, you know something. And I know this is contrary maybe even to the definition of faith in the dictionary. But if you believe something, if you choose to believe something, and then that’s your faith, I think you’re lost. You know?
Josh Dippold (36:23.469)
I would totally agree. These are two separate things. Belief is the enemy of knowledge, right? We don’t need to believe or disbelieve. But faith is not belief or disbelief. To me, faith means, I see something. I know that I’m not there. This looks like it’s beneficial. How do I get there? I can’t bridge that gap now, but…
It’s possible, And the Buddha said, you know, I wouldn’t teach this if it wasn’t possible. So I have to have faith because I’m nowhere near that level. You know, it doesn’t mean I have to believe what he says. Every single thing that he shares has to be tested and seen and known directly for oneself, not believed in because he said it, right? It has to be verified in one’s own experience. So to me, that’s faith. Because if you believe it or disbelieve it, that’s completely beside the point. I don’t go around telling people I believe in bicycles, right? No, because I’ve seen a bicycle, I’ve got on one, I’ve ridden
that I know it directly. don’t have to believe it or disbelieve it anymore.
Ivor (37:18.945)
Well and that’s what gives you faith I would say, right? Like I have what I would call faith in some principles of how the universe works which happens to align with what some other people have said but the reason I have faith is not because they said it the reason I have faith is because I’ve experienced it so many times and so clearly that I would just say well I know that that’s how it is so for me that’s really faith so… That’s called verified faith just so you know that Okay
Josh Dippold (37:22.139)
Exactly.
Josh Dippold (37:45.439)
That’s called verified faith, just so you know the correct terminology. That’s verified faith, and that’s right. That’s something that it should be verified. It should be verified with wisdom. It’s not blindly take it. No blind faith. That’s not encouraged at all.
Ivor (37:55.335)
Exactly, yeah.
Ivor (37:59.668)
Right, so on some level I would say there’s, as far as I can see, there’s no real distinction between wisdom and faith. Maybe, I guess when people look at me and the way that I live, know, people that surround me, that live quite differently from my lifestyle, they usually describe me as, you know, having a lot of faith or even religious, which I wouldn’t describe myself like that.
To them it looks like I got faith, I think they see reality like I see it. So they think I’m operating from faith when actually I’m operating from what I truly, I would say no to be true.
Josh Dippold (38:44.946)
Yeah, these faculties balance each other, Because, yeah, faith is verified with wisdom, and if I don’t have the wisdom, then I have the faith until I can get to the wisdom. You know, they kind of balance each other there, the faculties, yeah. But no, yeah, yeah, I totally see what you’re saying, totally, yeah.
Ivor (38:56.277)
Okay.
Ivor (39:01.419)
No, yeah,
Ivor (39:05.119)
Yeah, I would say I’m probably very much focused on the wisdom element here. And then, well, faith. Yeah, again, would say faith to the extent that it’s not based on wisdom is probably, at least I’m talking for myself, based on some kind of intuitive knowing. Like intuitively, I feel I should go there. So maybe that’s faith. I don’t know.
But again, it’s not really an intellectual thing. I think faith that’s based on rational and analytical deduction, to me that’s just not really where I want to be. Based on what I’ve tried in my life, I’ve tried that approach. And it just didn’t really work very well. And I see this is usually where people get lost. They get lost in one of those bubbles because that’s what I believe.
And oftentimes there is a group dynamic, right? There’s a sect, there’s a group. And well, my group believes that, so I got faith. And I don’t know, it’s just not my way, you know?
Josh Dippold (40:14.082)
Totally agree. Not everything can be comprehended with rationality and logic. There’s way more subtle, profound things where it’s not the right tool. You don’t cut a cake with a chainsaw. yeah, it’ll be really messy and not helpful. Yeah, totally agree there too.
Ivor (40:23.842)
Yeah.
Ivor (40:32.694)
And then you brought another, a few very interesting points when you were talking about long term versus short term. And then also, is it only good for me or is it good for the whole? I think these are very interesting perspectives. Like for example, long term versus short term, really, really, I think really changes the way that you make your decisions, right? Because if you’re playing the long game,
and by long game I mean a game that’s longer than just one lifespan basically infinite number of lifespans you’re really not gonna be so concerned with short-term gain and you’re gonna be for example willing to even give your physical life for a principle that’s gonna be a deal you’re gonna be willing to take because you’re gonna value your what people call your soul or your karma or something long-term something that
that is there, that transcends one lifespan, you’re gonna value that more than some immediate gain. And I think that is really important. For me, that’s been a very important distinction in my life, you know? And I’m really training myself to think in this long-term way. What’s good for me, you know, even if it’s really gonna be unpleasant immediately,
what’s the right thing to do rather than what’s the more pleasant, convenient way to do it in the short term. Because I believe there is a certain kind of dichotomy between short-term gain or I would even call it short-term pleasure or satisfaction and then long-term pleasure and satisfaction.
And it’s almost like you gotta choose one or the other. That seems to be the way that reality works metaphysically. Usually if you do the right thing, there’s gonna be a short term pain associated with that. Even if it’s just something as simple as addiction. If you’re addicted to something, it can be very difficult not to pursue that addiction in the short term.
Ivor (42:49.282)
But then of course in the long term, that’s gonna lead to a higher level of pleasure to be free of addiction. Or to tell the truth. Oftentimes it’s not very pleasant short term, right? To really follow what you believe, even in the spiritual world, right? To go to a meditation teacher and tell him, look, I think what you’re teaching is a little bit limited and I don’t really wanna do it like that. You know? Can be quite unpleasant. He’s gonna kick you out of the retreat.
But if you really do what you feel is right, and I was in that kind of a situation, and sometimes I didn’t do the right thing. And I was like, you know what? I want to stay here for 10 days. But I think that’s really important. And I would say, the skillful approach is always, I would say, the long-term approach.
Like we should really prioritize the long term.
Josh Dippold (43:47.581)
Totally, I totally agree. I don’t think it necessarily always has to be, you know, it is obviously there’s something that’s pleasant and helpful, right? We all want that. There’s no disagreement with that. Then there’s something that’s not pleasant, but it’s helpful, you know? And then there’s something that’s unpleasant and unhelpful. Nobody wants that. But then there’s something that’s pleasant, but it’s not helpful. And that’s a lot of the world, right? Now, I love this dynamic you throw in short term versus long term.
Ivor (44:05.451)
unpleasant.
Josh Dippold (44:17.604)
say, yeah, a lot of my experience aligns that. I wouldn’t say all the time though. mean, just maybe in Dhamma, there can be something short-term that’s pleasant, and it also helps and beneficial, but it also can add up and cumulate.
something that’s helpful long term, would say a daily sitting meditation, right? Not every day is a daily sitting meditation going to be pleasant and beneficial, but a lot of times it is and the you know, it’s it’s towards that long term thing, but it’s It’s every day day by day, right? It has a cumulative effect, you know, so we don’t want to write off something
As you know, it’s not important. It’s short-term. I don’t need to do it because it does have a cumulative effect. But yeah, totally in agreement that these long-term things outweigh because the classic thing in Buddhism is would you let go of a shorter pleasure or a minor pleasure in order to have a long-term long game?
welfare and happiness. yeah, you know, people that are wise, they will forego the quick fixes usually for the long-term welfare and happiness, right? Yeah, so these are really good points here.
Ivor (45:41.635)
Yeah, and then another thing you touched was is it good for me versus is it good for the whole? I think that’s another fascinating subject. And my exploration really has been that in the end, again looking long term, what’s good for the whole is basically always going to be good for me. And what’s good for the small me
is the kind of thing, especially when it’s at the expense of the whole, that’s going to be the kind of short-term pleasure that I want to avoid. And I would say it’s basically a function of wisdom. When you truly see how reality is formed,
or how the patterns of cause and effect operate and you know it well enough so that you can kind of anticipate what kind of effect you will get from a certain action then you tend to not be selfish at all or I would say it like this you see that the most selfish thing that you can do
is to not be selfish at all. it’s kind of like the dichotomy gets lost, because the most selfish thing you can do for yourself, for your own higher benefit, is to really maximize the benefit of the other.
Josh Dippold (47:17.011)
It’s a good way to put it. I heard someone say, you know, if I want something for myself, I should want it for everyone, you know
So what could you give me an example? The first thing you said, did you say something like if it’s good for the whole, it’s good for me. Now, you don’t mean like if 51 percent if it benefits 51 percent, then everybody then I benefit from it and everybody else. I say because that’s that’s that’s the fallacy of democracy, right? Because if you just have 51 percent, well, they’re in charge. But the other 49 percent, they get the short end of the stick. You don’t you don’t mean it like that.
Ivor (47:41.73)
No, no, no, not like that. Right, right.
Ivor (47:54.08)
No, just, no, no, no, not at all. I’m just talking about my inner processes. How do I make a decision? Because I think that’s eventually what life is all about, what reality is all about, right? From the first person. Reality is all about making decisions and we make like hundreds or maybe thousands of decisions every day. And then how do we make them, right? To me, that’s the whole game. And so, very often, you have, let’s say you have decision A and decision B,
Decision a is what seems to be good for you, but it’s not maybe and I’m simplifying But you know just to make a point what seems to be good for you, but not good for the rest That’s what I mean the whole I mean Coming from a model where there’s me and then there’s the rest right like a Kind of like a dualistic model right there’s me and then there’s the there’s the not me right so the not me I call the whole the other right
Josh Dippold (48:51.729)
Yes.
Ivor (48:51.915)
And so what I would say in my experience so far, what I’ve seen by observing the patterns and how the causes and the effects, there seems to be a metaphysical rule that always operates as far as I can see, that when I prioritize the interest of the whole,
That’s when I get a good result. And by the way, the whole, of course it includes me, it doesn’t mean that now I’m gonna cut out my liver and give it to someone else. I’m not talking about that. It’s not like I’m gonna sacrifice myself. It’s more about what’s good for everyone, which includes me, right? Rather than just what’s good for me. And I think this is when you follow this path of exploration.
What I’ve seen is that in the long term, it always ends up, you know, the decision that’s good for the whole, for the other, is actually also the best decision for myself, long term.
Josh Dippold (50:06.483)
It’s a good way to put it. My fiance puts it. What would the world look like if everybody was doing what I was doing? You know what I mean? Because it kind of puts some of our choices then in perspective. I would just say we’re very fortunate to have some extra access to decision making because it seems like most of the world is just…
running, operating on habit patterns, And including myself a lot of times, just automatic pilot based on habit patterns. And that’s where a lot of the decisions come from. But the more, I think, mindfulness awareness we get, we realize there’s way more choices than just what we’ve been told, what we’ve been conditioned, what our habits are in making decisions too. I would say, a caveat in here, that not everything
is subject to kamma, right? There are certain other nyamas, I think they call them, like the weather patterns, even though it does some things, I guess, tie in, but different laws of the mind. What are some of the other things?
But yeah, we’re talking about cause and effect with intentionality. And so intentionality is the huge thing behind cause and effect, right? Because if we’re just doing something, yeah, the cause and effect might apply. But it’s when we do something with intention, when we say something with intention, even if we think something with an intention, it is subject to cause and effect.
in a way that if something just happens without intention, in my experience, it doesn’t seem to be as subject to cause and effect as…
Josh Dippold (51:47.844)
Yeah, then so basically one classic example of this is it makes sense is when I walk down the road, right? If I happen to step on an ant, but I don’t have the I don’t first off I don’t know that I did and I don’t have the intention to kill it, you know Then it’s not gonna have the same Effect and blowback and consequences if I go outside deliberately to seek out an ant with the intention of killing it Because of whatever reason or lack of reason, you know, so this is a key to
Ivor (51:49.474)
Basically.
Josh Dippold (52:17.557)
distinction I feel when it comes to this as well. Yes.
Ivor (52:21.539)
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I mean look, in this example, and it’s not just about stepping on an ant, you know, you can, I would call this carelessness and not necessarily with the ant. You know, but sometimes people are emotionally careless, it’s like I didn’t know that that would hurt you. Sure, that’s much better than knowing that that would hurt somebody, but it still is carelessness and I would say there still will be some kind of karmic repercussion.
I like this notion of, it was a guy called Tom Campbell, I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, he has this thing called the theory of everything or he calls it my big toe, T-O-E, and one thing that he says, which I think is brilliant, is that the universe is a simu-, or reality is a simulator, it’s optimized for your growth. And I’m totally on board with that.
Josh Dippold (52:49.875)
It’s a good point.
Josh Dippold (52:55.471)
Sounds familiar, yeah.
Ivor (53:18.133)
And I think it will really always give you exactly what’s best for you, again long term, right? So what does that mean growth? I mean that’s another maybe path of exploration. you know, let’s say if you’re being careless, right? Well I didn’t know. Okay, what’s the universe going to do? If it’s maximized for your growth, it’s going to make you know, right? And how can it do that? Well, you’re going to be in that position of that other person.
that got hurt by your carelessness.
Josh Dippold (53:52.181)
Now this is a really good point because I don’t know exactly the other points you talked to, but this is where the heart has to come in. Because not only carelessness, the Buddha recommended being heedful. Being heedful is the path to the deathless. Being heedless is this if you’re dead or ready. So this is a really high priority that needs to be paid attention. Be heedful. Also, if that happens, then
then for me I would say, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hurt you. I wanna do better now. Help me understand how that affected you so that I don’t do it again because I have this commitment to non-harming. And this is the core of all ethical things I feel is non-harming. So if we’re really committed, then the heart will leap up and say, I’m so sorry, didn’t understand. Help me, help.
show me a different way because I don’t want to harm you or anyone else. It’s due to my ignorance and my lack of heedfulness. And so I want to make a resolve to not do that again, you know, and kind of make a commitment to put
forth more efforts to prevent that from arising and happening in the future. So yeah, these are things. Now, the whole simulation thing, this is kind of a popular theory going on. I will say that, of course, we live in a type of situation with our perception. What we perceive is just a really small slice of what’s actually going on. We can only see in a certain bandwidth of a spectrum that’s available.
these, like the visual field, it’s color, light, and form, and we just label it, whatever we label it for convenience, name and form. that’s, we live in a world of concepts. So in a way, living in this world of concepts that we do, because we can’t really, most of us can’t discern ultimate reality, you know, in our daily, day to day lives, moment to moment, although there are some practitioners today who I have faith that they can do.
Josh Dippold (56:01.19)
to really strict teachings and really intense practice. Wisdom and they’re ripe for it too. I guess they’re paramere ripe to do it. However, that’s …
So in a way, we do live in a simulation, meaning that the mind lives in a world of concepts. Now, I love the optimism that you’re putting on it that it’s optimized for our growth. I would say, yes, if we allow it to. I have seen people that are just really interested in oblivion, and that’s it. And the more they choose oblivion and not caring, and apathy, and kind of self-destruction, things like that.
I don’t know if that’s for their most growth, but it’s that opportunity is there for it to be. again, like you say, to choices and choices are real. Yeah, they are so paramount and monumental. even that, like some people would start throwing this free will thing. And I don’t think choices are necessarily free will. You know what I mean? It’s just.
How do we make these decisions? You know, what are they based on? It’s I think it’s a
if we really break down to the minutest point, what really drives every single decision or lack thereof, you know, or choosing not to decide to. So these are really vast, profound things that can be taken in really granular detail and that are, I think, kind of hard to verify too, but we can definitely agree on the importance of our decisions or at least the illusion that we have these decisions and choices in life. Either way, you know,
Ivor (57:30.797)
detail.
Josh Dippold (57:46.935)
So where we will just seem to make the decisions until we can get to the point where we can see through if there is an illusion or not whether or not they are actual decisions made by however they’re being made and yeah, so many per day, but all right, I’ve or I’m gonna let you.
Ivor (57:48.771)
seem to make the decisions until we can get to the point where we can see.
Josh Dippold (58:05.36)
finish this train and we haven’t really even got into, you know, so maybe we’ll have to come back on another time because we wanted to talk about kind of your game theory things, randomness, you know. We did talk a little bit about cause and effect. The mirroring effect, we barely touched on that and we touched a little bit on truth, but I think there’s still more to go there. So I’ll throw it back to you here to…
Ivor (58:31.012)
Yeah, maybe we need a longer session.
Josh Dippold (58:34.244)
We might, we might, yeah. Well, I’ll throw it back to you to start addressing that and then wrapping it up too, leave you with like anyone that’s listening to this, then what would you like to leave with them? Like something that’s important that you feel either now or in the long run, timelessly or whatever you’d like to say.
Ivor (58:55.913)
Yeah, well that’s kind of what my life is about and I would say that’s really what everyone’s life is about even though people may be aware of that to one degree or another but it’s really all about pattern recognition, right? Really figuring out how does this thing work? And first of all, the fundamental question is well, what is this thing in the first place? And we kind of touched on that a little bit.
Yeah, I wish we could go deeper into it. But I think we, you know, we…
Josh Dippold (59:30.932)
Yeah, there’s a possibility we could do another one. mean, reality, that’s exactly what this is all about. Unfortunately, Buddhism has been labeled as a religion, but to me, it’s just this map of what the Buddha found out about reality, and then the best way to go about it, to me, you know, that’s what I think most practitioners should be doing anyway. Yeah, what is this, and what’s the best way to go about it?
Ivor (59:52.737)
Exactly. And then I would just say trial and error, you know, like see what works see what doesn’t work Try this try that That’s certainly been my approach and I’m happy with it, you know And sometimes you have a really bad beat but but it’s worth it because that’s how you get the wisdom, right? You really mess up and You know, you’re not gonna do that again, right? And so to me that’s that’s the advantage of not being dogmatic
and not being too constricted within any kind of set of rules, although there’s benefits to that for sure, but ultimately, the best rules are the ones that you know deep inside of you, you don’t wanna break. And you touched a little bit, we talked a little bit about carelessness and that, and I wanted to go into like a really good personal experience, personal example of that. Like I didn’t mean to,
Josh Dippold (01:00:48.468)
Sure, go ahead, yeah. No, no, go, Sure, no, we have plenty of time for that.
Ivor (01:00:49.736)
Well, just very briefly, you know, in my earlier days, like I can now say I was quite careless, for example, in my relationships, in my romantic relationships. And at the time I had no idea. I honestly never wanted to harm anybody. And I wouldn’t, I didn’t even think about myself as being careless. It’s just because I was just not sensitive enough to feel the pain of the other.
And so now from the perspective of what we’re talking about, you know, I would say the universe, reality, had no other way of showing me that, but to put me into a reverse position where I got to experience all of that pain and suffering. Where it was literally reverse. And only after that, first of all, I realized what I had done. And then after that,
Like you know that experience for example was so deep or serious of those experiences That there’s just no way I can do that again right not because because I believe something It’s just I know it’s so deeply organically. I’m not gonna go there again. You know and I think that that’s just an example Just for really how the universe works in many other ways right in basically in every way I would say you need to go through a certain kind of pattern
until you really kind of master it, right? And usually that has to do with a lot of pain, in my experience.
Josh Dippold (01:02:25.909)
It happens and this is not a reward and punishment system.
This is a cause and effect system, right? And like the thing you said, you learn from the experience and we see we don’t want to go down that road again because we know from experience where that leads to and we now have a choice. It doesn’t really matter so much what’s happened in the past. If we learn from it, that’s what we need to do. That’s it. But right now we have a choice. We have a chance to make something, do something different in our actions, in our speech, in our thoughts matter. So it’s not to get drugged.
Ivor (01:02:31.918)
Right.
Josh Dippold (01:03:00.585)
down by what’s happened in the past. It’s to learn from it and realize now is the chance we have to make a difference. So I just want to add that in there. Yeah.
Ivor (01:03:10.276)
Yeah, and maybe the last thing I want to say, another concept that I think is crucial is just what I call radical responsibility. Like really, really accepting complete and total responsibility for every aspect in one’s life. Which is not always easy to do, right? Because it comes so naturally or maybe we’re so conditioned.
to blame it either on something else, somebody else, or to call it kind of random, nothing to do with me, and I think that’s never really true. I mean, maybe that’s an extreme statement, but I believe in it. Okay, sometimes it may not be completely obvious. In fact, usually it’s not completely and totally obvious. But that would be an example of what I would call faith. Like in every situation I have faith,
that one way or the other I’ve created that situation with my actions, with my thoughts, with my beliefs, with my attitudes even though I may not quite see it I do have faith based but this faith is based on previous experiences and previous patterns I have faith, yeah, I’m creating this, right? So then the question becomes how did I create this?
And then to me that kind of changes the whole dynamic of how I then approach this situation. And I would say if that’s the only thing, if that’s one thing that we can do more, we’re going to live in a completely different reality, Accepting responsibility for our lives and for our situation.
Josh Dippold (01:04:52.007)
And it’s empowering too, right? Because the more responsibility we take, the more empowerment that comes along with it. And I would just add, the way I’m approaching this now is it’s not so important, at least right now, for me to know where it came from, how it caused it, if it’s me or someone else. The matter of the fact is it’s happening. It’s happening to me, or I’m in it. Whatever’s going on in my experience, I now have to take responsibility for that.
You know, it doesn’t really, it’s beside the point whether I’m a some kind of victim of circumstance or whether I perpetuated it, you know, or I don’t know where it’s come and I’m confused about it. You know, yes, ideally, the wisdom would be there to know immediately all that stuff. But a lot of times it’s not. But the priority is, okay, here it is.
I have to take responsibility for it. I don’t, there’s probably going to be even more damage and recklessness come and fall out. So put them in big boy pants. This is happening.
I have to take responsibility for it because that’s how this victim victimizer cycle ends too. Nobody wants to take responsibility. And that’s how it ends. To do something different than perpetuating a cycle over and over. Say, OK, yes, it might be unpleasant, but now I take responsibility for this and do something different. And I don’t really see where needs to be. Any blame needs to be leveled either to me or anyone else. It’s just.
Ivor (01:06:08.92)
Yes, it might be.
Josh Dippold (01:06:21.077)
what’s happening and then either responsibility or lack of responsibility and then wise action. Yeah. And then how am I holding this in my heart and what am I going to do with it or not do with it? So yeah, that’s a really important reminder. I can’t really emphasize that enough. So thanks for that too. Well, I’ve, yeah.
Ivor (01:06:39.652)
Yeah, and I would say it’s not really about blame, it’s more about seeing the actual cause, right? And asking yourself, okay, I don’t like this situation, how can I make it better next time, right? Rather than abdicating responsibility and by abdicating responsibility you abdicate power.
Josh Dippold (01:06:45.395)
Yes.
Josh Dippold (01:06:49.951)
Yes.
Josh Dippold (01:06:57.951)
Really good points, yep. All right. Well, cool, Ivan. This has been a pleasure for me and Joy, and I really appreciate this feedback and spiritual friends in the past. So it’s really good catching up with you again. yeah, hopefully we can do this again down the road. yeah, my pleasure. All right. May all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free. Bye.
Ivor (01:07:14.116)
Yeah, it’s been great. Thank you very much, Josh.
Integrating Presence 