[Note: Randi of https://toveje.dk uses her own terminology so it mixes around the standard, currently established notion of the three realm classification* of desire realm, form realm and formless realm. However, plenty still meshes and aligns with this standardization too. She brings her direct experience to bear on this sutta of which a few translations are below]
See our similar past chats: https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/12/podcast-trauma-teachings-and-textual-interpretations-buddhism-and-beyond-with-randi-green-part-1/ and https://integratingpresence.com/2023/02/13/podcast-the-noble-truth-of-dukkha-buddhism-and-beyond-with-randi-green-part-2/
Ai assistance basically summaries our chat thus:
Randi Green and I conduct an in-depth study of the Aṅguttara Nikāya 8.64, a discourse from the Pali Canon. In this session, Green explores the concept of progressing contact beyond the human realm, delving into the sutta’s teachings on transcending ordinary sensory experiences and understanding higher states of consciousness. The discussion emphasizes practical applications of the sutta’s insights, aiming to guide practitioners in deepening their meditation practice and expanding their awareness beyond conventional human experiences.
Key Themes & Discussion Points:
1. Introduction to the Sutta (AN 8.64)
- Some context for the sutta.
- The text describes how the Bodhisattva (pre-awakened Buddha) first perceived light but not forms, then progressed through eight stages of realization.
- Discussion of different translations and interpretations, particularly the distinction between “light” and “auras.”
2. The Eight Stages of Realization
The Buddha’s progression in spiritual perception unfolds as follows:
- Perceiving light but not seeing forms.
- Perceiving both light and forms but not engaging with deities (or higher beings).
- Engaging with deities but not knowing their realm or classification.
- Determining the realm or classification of the deities.
- Understanding the past karma that led to their birth in that realm.
- Determining their sources of pleasure, pain, and sustenance.
- Understanding their lifespan.
- Recognizing whether he had lived among them in past existences.
3. Deities, Realms & the Nature of Consciousness
- Discussion on how the Buddha classified realms, distinguishing between rupa (form) and arupa (formless) realms.
- Debate on terminology: “deities,” “divine beings,” or “entities”—what best describes these beings?
- Tibetan Buddhism’s perspective: Randy shares insights from Tibetan esoteric teachings, particularly the Kalachakra system and nature spirits.
- The role of karma in rebirth: How past actions determine where beings are reborn.
4. The Nature of Divine Realms & Food in Higher Realms
- How higher beings “consume” sustenance—is it physical food or subtle energy?
- The concept of beings feeding on bliss, energy, or emotion, rather than material substances.
- Correspondences between jhana (meditative absorption) and different realms.
5. The Buddha’s Awakening & Past Lives
- The Buddha’s night of awakening involved recalling past lives and understanding the karmic consequences of actions.
- Question: Did the Buddha previously exist in higher realms before being reborn as a human?
- Exploration of whether contact with higher beings implies past-life connections.
6. Scholarly vs. Experiential Approaches to Texts
- Discussion on Buddhist councils and how scriptures evolved over time.
- Debate over commentaries & sub-commentaries—are they helpful interpretations or later distortions of original teachings?
- The importance of direct experience over relying solely on texts.
7. The Importance of the Number Eight
- The Eightfold Path, eight jhanas (meditative states), and the eight levels of realization in the sutta.
- The symbolism of the number eight in Buddhist philosophy.
8. Conclusion & Next Steps
- Reflections on how this sutta serves as a roadmap for contemplation.
- Recognizing the progressive nature of spiritual insight.
- Teaser for the next episode, which will explore a Zen story in contrast to this structured Buddhist discourse.
Final Thoughts:
The episode combines Buddhist textual analysis with esoteric insights, exploring how the sutta relates to personal experiences, meditative practice, and broader spiritual traditions. The discussion provides an in-depth, nuanced examination of consciousness, karma, and awakening.
*In Buddhist cosmology, the realms below the human realm are part of the Kāmadhātu (Desire Realm). These include:
1. Preta (Hungry Ghost) Realm – Beings in this realm are driven by extreme craving and suffering.
2. Naraka (Hell) Realms – Beings here experience intense suffering due to past negative karma.
Both of these realms, like the human and animal realms, belong to the Desire Realm (Kāmadhātu) because beings there still experience sensory desires and suffering based on attachment and aversion.
Only the Rūpadhātu (Form Realm) and Arūpadhātu (Formless Realm) are above the human realm and involve progressively subtler states of existence.
And “see”/ listen to “Part 2” on my other site innerskilled.com “The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story Reading & Commentary With Randi Green” • The Subtle Art of a Cat: A Zen Story … (which is actually a stand-alone and not really related)]
Numbered Discourses 8.64
7. Earthquakes
At Gayā Head — Gayāsīsasutta by Bhikkhu Sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/sujato
At one time the Buddha was staying near Gayā on Gayā Head. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:
“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still not awake but intent on awakening—I perceived light but did not see forms.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to both perceive light and see forms? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time, living diligent, keen, and resolute, I perceived light and saw forms. But I didn’t associate with those deities, converse, or engage in discussion.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion. But I didn’t know which order of gods those deities came from.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion; and find out which orders of gods those deities come from? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I perceived light and saw forms. And I associated with those deities … And I found out which orders of gods those deities came from. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here.
So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here. But I didn’t know what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain.
So after some time … I found out what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain. But I didn’t know that these deities have a lifespan of such a length.
So after some time … I found out that these deities have a lifespan of such a length. But I didn’t know whether or not I had previously lived together with those deities.
Then it occurred to me, ‘What if I were to perceive light and see forms; and associate with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion; and find out which orders of gods those deities come from; and what deeds caused those deities to be reborn there after passing away from here; and what deeds caused those deities to have such food and such an experience of pleasure and pain; and that these deities have a lifespan of such a length; and whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities? Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.’
So after some time … I found out whether or not I have previously lived together with those deities.
As long as my knowledge and vision about the deities was not fully purified in these eight rounds, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.
But when my knowledge and vision about the deities was fully purified in these eight rounds, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans. Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there’ll be no more future lives.’”
The Book of the Gradual Sayings
The Book of the Eights
8.64. At Gaya — Gayāsīsasutta by E.M. Hare
https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/hare
Thus have I heard:
Once the Exalted One was staying on Gaya Head at Gaya; and there he addressed the monks, saying:
‘Monks.’
‘Lord,’ they replied.
And the Exalted One said:
‘Monks, before my awakening, while I was not yet completely awakened and but a being awakening, I perceived auras, but I saw no forms.
Monks, to me there came the thought:
“If I were both to perceive auras and to see forms, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I both perceived the auras and saw the forms, but I did not stand with, talk to or engage in conversation any of those devas.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, but I knew not of those devas:
These devas are from such and such a deva community.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and know that these devas are from such and such a community, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, but I knew not of those devas:
These devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there but I knew not of those devas:
Such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe but I knew not of those devas:
These devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length but I knew not of those devas whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not.
Monks, to me came the thought:
“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, and to know that these devas are from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length and whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”
Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, and knew that these devas were from such and such a community, these devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there; those devas as the result of their deeds passed away from here and arose there such is the food of these devas, such their experiences, such their weal and woe; of those devas such is the food, such their experiences, such their weal and woe these devas live so long, those devas live so long, they have a life-span of such length they have a life-span of such length and whether I had dwelt with those devas formerly or not.
Monks, so long as this eightfold series of knowledge and vision of the higher devas was not fully purified in me, I did not realize as one wholly awakened to the highest awakening, unsurpassed in the world of devas, with its Māras and its Brahmās, or in the world of mankind with its recluses and godly men, devas and men.
But when the eightfold series of knowledge and vision of the higher devas was fully purified in me, then, monks, I realized as one wholly awakened to the highest awakening, unsurpassed in the world of devas, with its Māras and its Brahmās, or in the world of mankind with its recluses and godly men, devas and men.
Then knowledge and vision arose in me, and I knew:
Sure is my heart’s release; this is my last birth; there is now no more becoming for me.’
Join Randi and I Saturday December 6th, 2025 for “Multidimensional Contemplation with Meditation Exercise” in two sections from 5-7 pm and 8-10 pm Danish time. Only 10 spots!
ChatGPT Translation:
At one time, the Blessed One was dwelling at Gayā, on the Gayāsīsa hill. There, the Blessed One addressed the monks:
“Monks, before my complete awakening, while I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, I only perceived light, but I did not see forms.
Then, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light and also see forms, then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light and also saw forms, but I did not stand together, converse, or engage in discussion with those deities.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, and also stand together, converse, and engage in discussion with those deities, then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, and stood together, conversed, and engaged in discussion with those deities. But I did not know which specific deities they were—whether they were from this divine realm or that divine realm.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, stand together, converse, engage in discussion with those deities, and also know which deities they were—whether from this divine realm or that divine realm—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm.’ But I did not know whether these deities had been reborn in those realms due to the ripening of a particular karma.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to perceive light, see forms, stand together, converse, engage in discussion with those deities, know their realm, and also know whether they had been reborn there due to the ripening of a particular karma—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma.’ But I did not know what kind of sustenance they relied on, or what kind of pleasure and pain they experienced.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know what kind of sustenance they rely on and what kind of pleasure and pain they experience—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance and experience this type of pleasure and pain.’ But I did not know how long their lifespan was or how stable their existence was.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know the lifespan and stability of these deities—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance, experience this type of pleasure and pain, and have this length of lifespan and stability.’ But I did not know whether I had previously lived together with these deities or not.
Again, monks, this thought arose in me: ‘If I were to know whether I had previously lived together with these deities—then my knowledge and vision would be even more purified.’
Then, monks, after some time, being diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light, saw forms, stood together, conversed, engaged in discussion with those deities, and knew: ‘These deities are from this divine realm or that divine realm. They were reborn here due to the ripening of this karma. They rely on this type of sustenance, experience this type of pleasure and pain, have this length of lifespan and stability, and I also know whether I had previously lived together with them or not.’
Monks, as long as my divine knowledge and vision regarding these eight aspects was not fully purified, I did not yet declare: ‘I have fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its gods, Māras, Brahmās, renunciants, brahmins, humans, and devas.’ (Variant: abhisambuddho → abhisambuddho in Sya-all, PTS edition)
But when my divine knowledge and vision regarding these eight aspects was fully purified, then I declared: ‘I have fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its gods, Māras, Brahmās, renunciants, brahmins, humans, and devas.’
Knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My liberation of mind is unshakable. This is my final birth. There is now no further rebirth.’ (Variant: cetovimutti → vimutti in Si, MR edition)
Thus ends the fourth discourse.
More literal ChatGPT translation:
One time the Blessed One was dwelling in Gayā at Gayāsīsa. There, indeed, the Blessed One addressed the monks: … (ellipsis for repeated text)
“Monks, before my awakening, when I was not yet fully awakened, still only a Bodhisatta, I perceived only light, but I did not see forms.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light and also see forms, then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light and saw forms, yet I did not stand together with those deities, nor converse, nor engage in discussion with them.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, and also stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, and also stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. Yet, I did not know those deities—whether they were from such and such a group of deities or from another.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, and also know: “These deities belong to this group or that group of deities,” then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. And I also knew: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities.” Yet, I did not know whether those deities had passed away from here and been reborn there as a result of their kamma.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, and also know: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities,” and also know: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there,” then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. And I also knew: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities.” And I also knew: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there.” Yet, I did not know whether they experienced pleasure and pain according to their kamma.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, and also know: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities,” and also know: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there,” and also know: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain,” then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. And I also knew: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities.” And I also knew: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there.” And I also knew: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain.” Yet, I did not know whether they had long lifespans and endured for a long time.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, and also know: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities,” and also know: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there,” and also know: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain,” and also know: “These deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time,” then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. And I also knew: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities.” And I also knew: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there.” And I also knew: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain.” And I also knew: “These deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time.” Yet, I did not know whether I had previously dwelled together with those deities or not.
It occurred to me, ‘If I could both perceive light, see forms, stand together with those deities, converse, and engage in discussion with them, and also know: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities,” and also know: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there,” and also know: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain,” and also know: “These deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time,” and also know whether I had previously dwelled together with those deities or not, then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.’
So I, monks, at a later time, dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, indeed perceived light, saw forms, stood together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion with them. And I also knew: “These deities belong to such and such a group of deities.” And I also knew: “These deities, due to the result of their kamma, have passed away from here and been reborn there.” And I also knew: “These deities have such food, and experience such pleasure and pain.” And I also knew: “These deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time.” And I also knew whether I had previously dwelled together with those deities or not.
As long as my divine knowledge and vision had not been purified in this way, monks, I did not yet declare: ‘In this world with its devas, Māras, and Brahmās, with its ascetics and Brahmins, its beings, its devas and humans, I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment.’
But when my divine knowledge and vision was purified in this way, monks, then I declared: ‘In this world with its devas, Māras, and Brahmās, with its ascetics and Brahmins, its beings, its devas and humans, I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment.’
And knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation of mind. This is my final birth. There is now no further rebirth.’”
Original Pali via https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/pli/ms
Gayāsīsasutta—Mahāsaṅgīti Tipiṭaka Buddhavasse 2500
Gayāsīsasutta Variant: Gayāsīsasutta → adhidevañāṇadassanasuttaṁ (bj)
Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā gayāyaṁ viharati gayāsīse. Tatra kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi …pe…
“pubbāhaṁ, bhikkhave, sambodhā anabhisambuddho bodhisattova samāno obhāsaññeva kho sañjānāmi, no ca rūpāni passāmi.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi: ‘sace kho ahaṁ obhāsañceva sañjāneyyaṁ rūpāni ca passeyyaṁ; evaṁ me idaṁ ñāṇadassanaṁ parisuddhataraṁ assā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, aparena samayena appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto obhāsañceva sañjānāmi, rūpāni ca passāmi; no ca kho tāhi devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭhāmi sallapāmi sākacchaṁ samāpajjāmi.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi: ‘sace kho ahaṁ obhāsañceva sañjāneyyaṁ, rūpāni ca passeyyaṁ, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭheyyaṁ sallapeyyaṁ sākacchaṁ samāpajjeyyaṁ; evaṁ me idaṁ ñāṇadassanaṁ parisuddhataraṁ assā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, aparena samayena appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto obhāsañceva sañjānāmi, rūpāni ca passāmi, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭhāmi sallapāmi sākacchaṁ samāpajjāmi; no ca kho tā devatā jānāmi—imā devatā amukamhā vā amukamhā vā devanikāyāti.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi: ‘sace kho ahaṁ obhāsañceva sañjāneyyaṁ, rūpāni ca passeyyaṁ, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭheyyaṁ sallapeyyaṁ sākacchaṁ samāpajjeyyaṁ, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ: “imā devatā amukamhā vā amukamhā vā devanikāyā”ti; evaṁ me idaṁ ñāṇadassanaṁ parisuddhataraṁ assā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, aparena samayena appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto obhāsañceva sañjānāmi, rūpāni ca passāmi, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭhāmi sallapāmi sākacchaṁ samāpajjāmi, tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā amukamhā vā amukamhā vā devanikāyā’ti; no ca kho tā devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena ito cutā tattha upapannā’ti …pe…
tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena ito cutā tattha upapannā’ti; no ca kho tā devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena evamāhārā evaṁsukhadukkhappaṭisaṁvediniyo’ti …pe…
tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena evamāhārā evaṁsukhadukkhappaṭisaṁvediniyo’ti; no ca kho tā devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā evaṁdīghāyukā evaṁciraṭṭhitikā’ti …pe…
tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā evaṁdīghāyukā evaṁciraṭṭhitikā’ti; no ca kho tā devatā jānāmi yadi vā me imāhi devatāhi saddhiṁ sannivutthapubbaṁ yadi vā na sannivutthapubbanti.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi: ‘sace kho ahaṁ obhāsañceva sañjāneyyaṁ, rūpāni ca passeyyaṁ, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭheyyaṁ sallapeyyaṁ sākacchaṁ samāpajjeyyaṁ, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ: “imā devatā amukamhā vā amukamhā vā devanikāyā”ti, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ: “imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena ito cutā tattha upapannā”ti, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ: “imā devatā evamāhārā evaṁsukhadukkhappaṭisaṁvediniyo”ti, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ: “imā devatā evaṁdīghāyukā evaṁciraṭṭhitikā”ti, tā ca devatā jāneyyaṁ yadi vā me imāhi devatāhi saddhiṁ sannivutthapubbaṁ yadi vā na sannivutthapubbanti; evaṁ me idaṁ ñāṇadassanaṁ parisuddhataraṁ assā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, aparena samayena appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto obhāsañceva sañjānāmi, rūpāni ca passāmi, tāhi ca devatāhi saddhiṁ santiṭṭhāmi sallapāmi sākacchaṁ samāpajjāmi, tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā amukamhā vā amukamhā vā devanikāyā’ti, tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā imassa kammassa vipākena ito cutā tattha upapannā’ti, tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā evamāhārā evaṁsukhadukkhappaṭisaṁvediniyo’ti, tā ca devatā jānāmi: ‘imā devatā evaṁdīghāyukā evaṁciraṭṭhitikā’ti, tā ca devatā jānāmi yadi vā me devatāhi saddhiṁ sannivutthapubbaṁ yadi vā na sannivutthapubbanti.
Yāvakīvañca me, bhikkhave, evaṁ aṭṭhaparivaṭṭaṁ adhidevañāṇadassanaṁ na suvisuddhaṁ ahosi, neva tāvāhaṁ, bhikkhave, ‘sadevake loke samārake sabrahmake sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’ti paccaññāsiṁ. Variant: abhisambuddho’ti → abhisambuddho (sya-all, pts1ed)
Yato ca kho me, bhikkhave, evaṁ aṭṭhaparivaṭṭaṁ adhidevañāṇadassanaṁ suvisuddhaṁ ahosi, athāhaṁ, bhikkhave, ‘sadevake loke samārake sabrahmake sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’ti paccaññāsiṁ; ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṁ udapādi; akuppā me cetovimutti; ayamantimā jāti natthi dāni punabbhavo”ti. Variant: cetovimutti → vimutti (si, mr)
Catutthaṁ.
Audio: Skillfully Progressing Contact Beyond The Human Realm: Sutta Study With Randi Green — At Gaia Head (AN 8.64)
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
hey oldness welcome Josh here and today I’ve got Randy green with me Randy what’s going on not much yeah good hey
this is a our first suta study and well I’m called Zen story in suta study
actually get to a really short suta and then a longer Zen story uh we’ve talked
about some of the sutas before in past chats perhaps I’ll link those in the show notes or not but let’s get dive
right into this and we’ll do at guy ahead this is a n
8.64 and um from the number discourses that’s what a in is and I forget why
that is but this is I’ve got two different translations here and then a
couple chat GPT translations so I’m just going to use the main one of um sujat
translation aan suat su su Central and I’m going to put in a couple of little
changes um so I’ll Point those out as I go and all right right here it is um oh
some little um before this I want to give a a little discuss
or a little preface that this is when he says light
informs um this is not the everyday light that we see in our physical world
Central world uh he’s not really talking about that for say or forms like a a coffee cup or another human being next
to me this is higher level things in this um and you’ll see as we go along here so don’t let that throw you off at
first like it did me at one time the Buddha was staying near Gaia or guy ahead there was uh there the Buddha
addressed the micans micans before my Awakening when I was still not awake but
intent on awakening I perceived light but did not see forms okay so another translation has
this I perceived oras which is a spiritually or kind of new age loaded
term but actually I think it gets closer to what we’re going uh for here and um
micat of course is someone that um you know someone has not really into making
a lot of money and that you know goes for alms rounds for their their meals
then okay back to then it occurred to me what if I were to both perceive light
and see forms then my knowledge and V vision would become even more purified
and of course another comment I the reason chose this as you’ll see because of Randy’s unique gifts and her
experience after some time living diligent keen and
Resolute or I like the words Ardent diligent Ardent Resolute but
we’ll just go with this so after some time living diligent keen and Resolute I perceived light and saw forms but I did
not associate with those deities Converse or engage discussion okay so
right here I want to uh this is the main thing address the word deities so one of the translations has
dvas one has I think he comes later about gods and
um but I want to just say entities because this this seems to be higher
level beings not on the lower you know in the Buddhist cosmology from Humanity on up you know uh not from Humanity on
down the Realms but I’ll just say entities because the venerable Maha molana is a whole section about how he
talks to Hungry Ghost but this seems maybe higher level but to have a broader application maybe I’ll just say entities
or maybe I won’t we’ll see okay so let me read that again sorry to get in the weeds there so after some time living
diligent key and Resolute I perceived light and saw forms but I didn’t associate with those deities or entities
Converse or engage in discussion then it occurred to me what if I were to perceive light and see forms and
associate with those deity beings uh Converse and engage in discussion then
my knowledge and vision would become even more purified so after some time I
perceived light and saw formed and I associated with those deities conversed uh with those entities and
engaged in discussion but I didn’t know which order or I’m going to um change
the language here I didn’t know which order or what realm what group or community of God or
deities or entities these beings came from then it occurred to me what if I
were to perceive light and see forms and associate with those U entities Converse and engage in discussion and find out
which order or realm or group or Community those beings came from then my
knowledge and vision would become even more purified so after some time I perceive
light and soft form I associated with these with those um those beings dot dot dot and I found out which order they
came from what realm what community um group they came from but I did not know
what Deeds caused those beings to be reborned there after passing away from
here so after some time dot dot dot I found out what Deeds caused so the dot dot dot so I don’t have to go through
the whole thing again I found out what Deeds Deeds caused those those beings to
be reborn there after after passing away from here but I didn’t know what Deeds
caused these beings to have such food and such experience of Pleasure and Pain
so after some time dot dot dot I found out what Deeds cause these deities to have such food and such experience of
Pleasure and Pain but I didn’t know what these beings have of lifespan of such
length so after some time dot dot dot I found out that these beings have a lifespan of such a length but but I
didn’t know whether or not I had previously lived together with those
beings then it occurred to me what if I were to perceive light and see forms and associate with those beings Converse and
engage in discussion and find out which order or realm or group or Community those beings come from and what deeds
caus those beings to be reborn there after passing away from here and what deeds caus those beings to have such
food and such experience of Pleasure and Pain and that these being beings have a
lifespan of such a length and whether or not I have previously lived together with those beings then my knowledge and
vision would become even more purified so after some time dot dot dot I found
out whether or not I have previously lived together with those beings as long as my knowledge and vision about the the
beings was not fully purified in these eight rounds I didn’t announce my Supreme perfect Awakening in this world
with its gods mors maras and divinity this population with its etics and
brahin its gods and humans but when my knowledge and vision about these beings
was fully purified in these eight rounds I announc my Supreme perfect Awakening in this world with its Gods moros
divinities this population with his athetics and brahin its gods and humans knowledge and vision arose in me my
freedom is unshakable this is my last rebirth now there will be no more future
lives and that is the end of the um gahad a in
864 so as we see there’s there’s eight levels and these are not normal waking
human experiences of worldlings you know this is seeing into other Realms and
experiencing other Realms so we just to recap we’ve got light form and then um
associating and then we get into discussion and then uh what order or
like location or Community um they come from um and then what caused those de
what caused their rebirth basically their deeds that they did they got them there and then uh what food they took in
experience of Pleasure and Pain and um how long they live their lifespan and
then we go uh whether or not the Observer is actually U had a previous
Incarnation since beginningless time with these uh with these beings
um and so the the only thing I want to point out before I throw it over to Randy is this parallels the Buddhist
night of Awakening is said where he first discerned his well one of the stages was he discerned his own lives
but then he was able to view this in other beings and part of the past life recall was exactly this that remembering
where one lived you know who they lived around with like this Clans or the group of beings they lived with and then what
would they ate for food and then how long long their lifespan was what gave them pleasure what provided them pain
you know um and I guess I don’t know I can’t remember whether or not they’ve
you know if it’s linked to another previous but that would that would make sense if you if it you know if it uh
associated with a previous past life and so all right I think that’s that’s all I’ve got um it’s interesting though that
this seems to be linked and associated with full Awakening right so I mean this would seem to imply that without this
kind of experience maybe one couldn’t fully awaken so uh when we have an Academia and certain things that people
just blow off these experiences as you know myth or fairy tale or something like that then this this seems if taken
on face value like this it seems fairly important that this that these abilities are there in order for have Awakening
and it seems to mesh with the Buddhist n of Awakening too where he recalled this in himself and then others too the
transmigration or whatever and see this in other beings so yeah I got some
classification questions first okay um eight rounds eight let’s see what it says at
the bottom of the text it says something about the eight rounds the eight rounds eight rounds yeah let me see how the
other inter they interpret CES well it’s these there’s eight different rounds oh
no rounds rounds rounds so the first you get the light and form all these different stages he’s talking about
that’s what it means by that round rounds I’m I’m pretty sure right so we so is it areas or Cycles no it’s it’s
these these stages basically first you see light and form then you talk to them then you find out what order they come
from you know then you find out what food they take and Pleasure and Pain and then whether you live you know those
different stages so stages of Investigation that’s a that’s not really um that’s not really a great uh
translation word there oh it’s just for clarification yes okay in the original
text when you say form does he then use the word rer or auper yeah see I need to
look at the original Po and I because I think he used a roer because these are the formless Realms it’s translated soft
I think well I think form is mean the very subtle subtle matter Realms I would think you know because uh the formless
beings I don’t know maybe it applies to formless beings too are often associated with the auper so for me it’s kind of
for me to for me to understand that he begins first with as far as I let’s talk
about the text first and then my opinion later on as I understand what he’s saying first is that he began
investigating the world from the known features that he normally would work with with his faculties as eyes and ears
and the tactile perception as it touches reality this from what I understand this
is my thing this is seeing above the human realm so Dave is on up and from my
understanding of the Buddhist cosmology that no the the formless beings don’t get into the Brahman Realms but the the
things that we can’t normally see with the physical eye are considered form Realms but subtle matter where you they
do have a form that’s discernable um but it’s very subtle and most people can’t discern it the matter is most subtle you
know and then it’s not until you get to the formless Brahma Realms where there is no even subtle form arupa right and I
think so so anywhere I I don’t know if I had to guess it would say just anywhere
above the human realm is what he’s mentioning yeah yeah so I’m just trying to understand the process that he gone
through that’s that’s investigation so as I perceive it here he first begins he
has now worked his way through the understanding of how his eyes and ears
and smell and senses um are acting with the wells of form the roer wells and
that goes from as you just said the four Realms beneath human and the human realm with the roer Realms above the human
real no that’s the arer above humans AR roer human Realms is the last rer realm
that the form realm yeah beneath us are four other Realms that are rer Realms
form Realms dense Realms where we take on form that is slow and dense and not
subtle there’s the animal Hungry Ghost I think the Y AA or something like that
the and then the hell Realms and there’s many hell Realms so that’s below the human I think considered I might might
be missing something and the human and above would be human in certain class of
dasas than than the Brahma Realms yeah yeah and the Brahma Rams is where we go
into what we typically associate with the manasas the Mind born the brahmas
are the Mind borns there we go into what we could classify as a Mantic or the man Manas the mind
in its more subtle form where again Associated this Ram as I see it and I know this is not how people typically
interpret it but for me the eight geners only makes sense when we begin to talk
about the different stages of subtle energies of the different Realms because the eight geners and that’s why I wanted
to understand the eight stages you were talking about because that could be Associated either with directly with the
AG genas or perhaps Su levels of the AG geners which I don’t know because this
is not a practice that I’m doing in this life I’m just putting together here how I perceive what you read there and how I
would address it so the first most important thing is of course to have the right words and I
think I think the the aura is perhaps better than light because when you begin to go into
the subtle energies and you begin to connect with the Davis the a roer Realms
that are in our rer realm that is the Davis that are in nature the Davis that
are around us the Davis that that uh as when I woke up was the first I came in
contact with as well I began my own practice in this life in meditation and deep contemplation and I began with the
heart qualities I began with the com compassion exercises as actually D lmer
teaches his people to do the the great INB breath and out breath and compassion
and breathing in the pain of the world and breathing out the transformed level of it in compassion and with that got
myself situated in the understanding of being able to see the world pain and accept the world pain and with that
associate myself with the world pain but also disconnect from the world pain Tong tonglin I think is the name of that
practice Yeah so in that way that that kind of ignited my kindness Within
Myself to realize that yes this world is full of pain it’s is full of stress it’s
full of disorder it’s not in harmony anymore and people are suffering under
these let me call it unlawful disarm disharmonic if there’s a word
disharmonious yeah uh ways of existence that we are now currently put under uh
and as far as I recall it from my past life uh as a practitioner within a
Tibetan Monastery at little outskirts in the mountains which I don’t know what’s called I don’t know where it is because
it’s a past life I only have my memories of inc2 seeing myself being there I’m
not thinking about what the name of the place is I’m not thinking about my own name as we don’t do in this live we
don’t walk around saying oh my name is this or that whatever we’re just existing we’re just us here experiencing
reality and past lives go come about that unless someone says something or
another past life I have where I actually look myself in the mirror so I can see but this we didn’t have mirror
so I don’t know how look I know I’m a young man that’s all I know um and I know my demise but that’s another story
so in the practice of Reawakening what I already had practiced in a previous life but in within a different system so
that’s important for people to understand here as well that where I found the most relief in understanding
the way I had been trained was within the kalor chakra and that’s why I reverted to dammer and his teachings
even though that he is not what I would see as a a teacher I would follow in this lifetime let me put it this way so
I’m not following the practice so we’re here relying on my current knowledge what I’ve studied mostly
within what we could call the esoteric teaching systems and that’s where I have my terminology from which might not be
the same as people who are studying the text uh for people who are new to to me
I have a bachelor degree in Theology and that’s why I’m very keen on the words to begin with because when we talk ancient
languages each word has has multiple meanings depending on the context that’s in and we must also remember the
cultural setting and where the Buddha came from and what path he was on and the narrative around his story as well
as the narrative around the the situation around himself The Institute
where he was at the time of his existence but what I’m hearing here and we’ll take the text as face value as if
it actually was from the Buddha it doesn’t really matter because I can whether this is written actually from
the Buddha or someone else claims to be teaching the stories of the Buddha and
using the traditional old trick of these old text is to have a conversation with
the Buddha and then pretend to either be one of the listeners or one that those have I have heard or actually are a
little bit cheeky let me put this way and pretend to actually be the Buddha saying that that’s typical for ancient
text we have that both uh Within Christianity as well as within Judah the
abrahamic religions and we’re also seeing it in the other types of text that we have got left as a Remnant from
these ancient or early civilizations so so in that way they just put that in
context so we are not blindly stepping in oh yeah this is actually what the Buddha said because he was teaching
orally and it was not written down until later and that means a lot of things
could have slipped in the meantime and there were also decisions and counsels that decided which were the
right teachings and which were not but this is one of the rare ones you found yeah exactly it was hard to to find that
and if you don’t mind I’ll just read a summary recap just real again and this is from chat gpts and I’ll just read it
verbatim at uh one time the blessed one was dwelling at Gia Gia Gia cisa there
indeed the blessed one address the monks monks before my Awakening when I was not yet fully awakened only still only a
bodh Safa I perceived light but did not see forms it occurred to me if I could both perceive light and also see forms
then my knowledge and vision would be even pure so then I’m going to skip down to the last paragraph So I monks after
going through all these different ways this is a summary of it so I Monks at a later time dwelling diligent Ardent and
Resolute indeed perceived light saw forms stood together with those deities
conversed and engaged in discussion with them and I also knew these deities
belong to such and such a group of deities and I also knew these deities
due to the results of their comma have passed away from here and been reborn
there um and I also knew these deities have such food and and experiences such
as Pleasure and Pain and I also knew these deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time and I also knew
whether I had previously dwelt together with those deities or not as long as my Divine knowledge and vision had not been
purified in this way monks I I did not yet declare in this world with his Davis Mars and Brahman with its Aesthetics and
brahin its beings and Davis and humans I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect Enlightenment but when my Divine
knowledge and vision was purified in this way monks then I declared in this world with his Davis mors and brahans
with his Aesthetics and brahans its beings and Davis and humans I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect Enlightenment and knowledge and vision
arose in me unshakable was my liberation of mind this is my final birth there is no further rebirth so basically yeah
there there’s these different ways to um these different uh ways to discern once
you meet a being in a different realm right that’s higher than human realm which is referred to as Divine by this
more literal interpretation by chat GPT so yeah yeah as I see that text and
again when we work with the ancient text the question we should ask ourself is always what’s the purpose and function
of that text what is it that it wants to convey to us that are studying these
texts not because we want to get the answers but because we want to understand how the path works and what
the contemplation practices are on the path and what is it that we need to derive from our own practices our own
practice so using that as a model of how to do this sure the answer for this would be is um when his Divine knowledge
and vision was purified in the way that was laid out then he could then he could
um declare I am fully awaken unsurpassed perfect Enlightenment unshakable is my liberation of mind he’s no longer to go
into rebirth so that would be the Buddhist purpose for doing that supposedly well that’s what yeah exactly
that’s all we have to work with just because you get in contact with the D Rams doesn’t mean you’re done with your rebirth Cycles no no that’s right so
that’s why it wasn’t just contact right it was all these different stages um so
I would still if I would still say that the last bit is an interpolation that’s been put in later yeah and there’s that
common thing among Scholars now that say this might have been been added but you know yeah that it’s a good question I
would say what uh I guess in your opinion what I would ask is what is do
you find Value in in and having this level of knowledge with other beings you know going through um you know what what
order or rank they’re from basically classification you know that you can see them you can discuss and talk with them
which you’ve had interface basically right and then you can tell what group some of these come from and then um but
I I haven’t talked uh heard about so much is this knowledge of okay you can see what well now actually you have you
they’re past actions and then where they are now you’ve talked being a releaser so you’ve talked about some on that
level I would like to stay with the text for a while Pleasure and Pain because I find it super important and and I I hear
where you want to go but for for me I want to point out here that those who are starting these text they need to
understand how to look at this first methodically okay and as I said I’m not
using Scholastic methods here I’m not I haven’t studied this as a Scholars that have come up with this or that or
whatever what I’m going with here is first and foremost I’m doing what we call a kind of psychic energetic
interpretation of it and the first thing that that first I need to understand the words so I get the right understanding
of the words because the words themselves these key words ruper arupa deas are super important well that’s so
we’ve got a we’ve got a a challenge right there because this is this is an English interpretation of a i and it’s
also said that ply wasn’t the language of the Buddha it was written down later and then you know then we’ve got the
different Council so there’s a whole line of things so all we really have to work with is this right now and it’s
yeah but the reason why I am doing that is because when we work with first and
foremost the words in these text and I need a little bit longer time here to explain before you just remember that
the other Zen story is eight pages so yes but please
um okay so am I kind of on a limitation of no no there’s no just a limitation of
my hard [Laughter] drive okay so first and foremost the
light the latter part of that one is energetically dissimilar to the rest of the text and that’s why I right away
Spott it it was an interpolation so so I want to take that away when I said what is the purpose and function of this text
so first I’m classifying the words themselves because each of these words are part of a thought form and the
Buddhist teachings as well as with all ancient teachings that are working with the ancient or the other worldly Realms
are always connected to thought forms first the word themselves tell you which classification we’re dealing with so
we’re here saying okay we are in the arupa realms that is clear from the text as I see it okay but did just say
because this is me getting how I interpret that I see that that means formless so this mentions form yes
because the Devas are per definition formless in the manner of compare to the
r performs as I began in the first five rounds okay I guess that’s not how but
but anyway we’ll just go with that yeah because I I think they they they just call it subtle subtle form and then
formless so yeah anyway yes again I’m not using the way you’re interpreting
things um so I need to do it within my system as I understand it so the first
five levels are what we call the ruber forms that you have classified we have as I have seen them and experienced them
myself this is not me studying some text and saying oh this is what I read
somewhere this is how I’ve seen it how I experienced it technically even though
that it is often said that there are only four rounds beneath the human which is in the esoterics I talked about the
mineral level the plant level the animal and then we have as the fourth actually
the the human the the Hindu teachings talks about seven lesser Realms in the
Underworld and for me when I look at that classification system there are the
base level of it is the Naga Realms I know there’s a round before that’s kind of called the hell round that is where
you have the different fires that is not fire as we understand it but it’s different types of fires that are
purging the forms from being so so what
do you call it dense that only the fires can purify them at that point the beings
that are there no longer have any Essence they no longer have free will they no longer eat they no longer they
are just in these Pur purging fires that’s all that they are in and they’re not fires as we understand them some of
them are blue white light some of them other forms of Lights they’re kind of what we could say a type of flames more
than fire so so that’s how they’re associate and they purged these very very dense I always say the the I always
say gross but they’re gross as in kind of very very raw dense type of matter thing and then
you go up to to we have a round where we have all the nagas kind of the snake Realms and we have a around where we
have the yakis these are kind of the evil demons the evil Spirits which are demons because they’re organic when you
come in contact with them psychic energetically it’s like being in contact with another human so that’s what I mean
with the rer when you are in contact with them it gives a tactile sensation
it gives a it uses the normal human senses to investigate it you sense it
via your normal human senses but it says 4D though right no no no let’s let’s go we stay completely within the text of
this one completely within this and just so you know these are these are from what I GA these are Divine Realms above
all those yeah yes we’re not talking about the four Realms below human the roer Realms so the roer Realms are
associated with in the practice when you investigate them when you come in contact with them you use your human
senses it it touches your human senses it touches your smell even though it’s
kind of what we say a high order type of sense because you’re not smelling it physically you can actually if they come
very close you can actually smell them with a human smell they will give an order in the room an inner s an inner
smell yes and you can actually hear they it depends on how close they get to you in this realm in the human realm but
they the the thing with the rerams is that they they are kind of joined together in a pattern they are
interacting with each other and when the the person of the Buddha in the text says that that that he is sitting in
that and and first using his his senses as within that he normally does in this
reality then you will get in contact with a certain class of entities a certain group of entities that are
associated with that same type of sensing mechanism and that’s why you need to go into the more subtle energies
the more uh lesser what we call roer oriented or form oriented
introspection of what you are experiencing and that goes as well with
if you as as far as I know in in the practice as I did as well I can’t say
what the Buddha did because I wasn’t there but as far as the text goes it appears as if he’s mostly meditating
outside so that’s kind of it’s under the tree he’s he’s sitting out there he’s
wandering on the on the road he is so we we rarely hear him a story where he sits
in a house meditating well there’s uh yeah there’s a lot of stories of him dwelling in Forest there’s also a certain like a nonp
Park in pleasure Parks but also in pleasure palaces there are some that have built monasteries for him at
jetta’s Grove places like this but yes both in monasteries that have been built
in pal but but mainly a lot of times outside yeah yeah and with that of course when you go into the subtle
energies and you then become in in your genre practice again as I said as I
experience and I understand it uh some there are different levels of the J
practices the first four of them associate with what call the more roer oriented experiences that levels this up
and makes it more and more subtle and then you have the the latter four that then goes Way Beyond but within the
first four genas you will have the roer and a roer experiences and I have to use that terminology because fo doesn’t make
sense because technically even though it is a roer it does still have a kind of
form it’s just a form as we could say of light or a form of auras a form of of a
different mechanism of which you come in contact with them so instead of having
the five senses that you’re normally using As It said In other text material
that you have read up that’s part of your your work um I forgot which text it
is the ear Consciousness and eye Consciousness sure sure that’s the SC that that that’s the the you the senses
yeah and the it’s a five senses Plus in terada the six sense is mind and that
encompasses pretty much everything else yeah yes and so there’s mind Consciousness eye Consciousness and when
it when the physical eye meets a a form and there’s contact eye Consciousness
arises that’s what it said same way with all the senses even mind yes exactly and that’s that’s what happens when you are
in the roer Realms when you use your your your roer faculties you will engage
with what is in the raran so what is associated energetically or in in
various quote unquote forms within that realm then you go into the more subtle
energies and suddenly there is a different type that’s why we kind of move a little bit and I’m not saying it’s the same but there’s a little bit
same idea that we have with particles and waveforms little bit I’m not saying it is the same but the idea is similar
there’s a similar idea of something is touchable something is non- touchable
something works in one way in within physics and another thing works in another way within physics and that’s
where again I’ll just throw in a little bit here where as we have discovered in mindfulness practices where psychology
is now discovering oh that’s very similar to what we can actually use etc etc
so people around the planet that have used contemplation meditation techniques
to investigate reality have come up with very similar ideas and when we squeeze
modern science we will see that some of the greatest thinkers were sometimes practition of meditation or had Visions
or had other insights that technically came as Visions as pop up ideas within
their head and that text that you have picked of shows that very well it shows that in his meditation and contemplation
over these questions ideas arose answers came and with that he got more and more
nuanced ways more more subtle ways of engaging with reality instead of just relying on the senses he began to rely
more on what we say the faculties of mind which is not completely accurate because when we’re talking about the de
Rams the first ones you get in contact with are typically the ones I associate
with nature that’s why I want to point out that he might have experienced this in nature that that meshes well because
that’s the lower level of the deavas nature are part of this reality and they come in as far as I
learned um that’s why I pointed out first the cont the the compassion
practice because these the davers in nature they are
like the the Le they have different classifications so the first one they in
in a way they’re are similar to the four rounds beneath the human that are associated with the form rounds that are
associated with our being where humans are technically the highest level but we can easily Slither back into the
previous B Realms and does it then mean that we are going through the life cycles from the Lesser Realms into the
human realm and my answer would be a clear no the human Realms as I understand these teachings including as
I far as I remember Within These processes of ideas is that the human
real is where we get born into and then we can only revert back we can regress
we’re not kind of once we regress there are two stages the first two stages under the human where we can get back
into the human realm the two the devil Realms the flame Realms once you’re there you don’t have mind you don’t have
faculties you don’t have perception you you’re just part of it and with that it’s a kind of you’re stuck there you
don’t get out there once you’re there you’re stuck there but you can through your actions in this life become part of
the yaka or the demon Realms you can turn into demon by the actions in this human realm and so just a brief note I I
don’t think that meshes entirely with the Buddhist understanding and like this is just me repeating things so I don’t
have enough knowledge to say on my own but they’re they’re just basically saying do do to past actions that’s
what’s caused wherever birth you take if we’re taking this more literally right and that once the time lifespan runs out
and like a hell realm well then you’re going to take another birth whether it be in the hell realm again or due to
really long you know or who knows how long previous life uh that that you
might have actually done something good in one of those lifetimes that just hasn’t fruited yet but then after that
life in the hell realm well then that Karma actually then will take effect where then you can take a higher birth
but there’s no guarantee or knowing you know or whatever and so so it’s basically you can go up and down these
ladders based on based on one’s action with intent but you know that that’s my limited understanding and and that’s not
based on anything other than than books so yeah I don’t but this is where it’s important because it’s it’s hard to know that’s more like a Christian
interpretation like like a hell will last forever right not I should I shouldn’t
but they also believe a hell is forever right no I don’t I don’t want to bring Christianity into this what we can say
say with the two two pieces here okay as I said from the beginning my the
teachings I have from my past life is based upon very similar to what’s called kala Shakra yes and it is rooted in
tibetan interpretation of Buddhism yes and that means when we talk about the
the people of Tibet that that became Buddhists they in in their teachings are
a lot of rounds of of different forms of entities that you don’t have in the yes
have a lot of deity practice and some say they borrowed from the bond tradition in Tibet yeah no it’s as far
as I know and I’m this is not me studying this this is what I know I’m talking about my knowledge and it could
be correct and could be completely incorrect but as far as I recall and I remember what I was taught living there
being a Buddhist monk in Tibet that the Traditions within the different systems
uh we could say the question the the thing that kind of pops up in my mind was that since we incorporate I have to
say we let me just go right back into who and what my previous version of myself here the way I was taught it was
it was so natural part of our practice that these entities were there and entities are often associated with below
human Devas and deities above human exactly that’s what I was say so we
can’t call the ones above human entities that would be wrong it’s below human
that’s where the mistake I made the reason I chose entity was just to have a broader scope on on interface but yeah I
I I was wrong because all these interpret all these translations didn’t use entity that was my bad they’re all
gods dvas or div Divine beings let me put right here yeah right here when we
talk about the Devas they are some of the first classes over the human the
deities above Brahma Realms so let us put this into that’s why confusing all
these different words to and the only reason why they are addressed as quote unquote deities is because above the
Brahma realm these entities which is wrong but these beings more correct are
seeing themselves as Gods it’s not the same as we need to see them as Gods but
they see themselves as Gods because they live for so long spans that they have kind of got that’s the issue with the
manaus the mind born is that they they are in such a subtle energy that they
their their cycles of existence is so long and they get all I have to use
human terminology here they get get all hyped up with this ability to stay
almost Eternal and that way they see themselves as Gods but that’s not the same as they are and that’s one thing
that that in in the the in situ in the situation of my past life we were fully
aware of the self-deception of these different classes of aupa beings and
that’s why I wanted to go with the Rupa arupa because it’s a it’s an important critical classification in understanding
how to deal with these beings so you step one roer good we have the first
five classes of which the two bottom classes are no longer able to undo their
Acts or regain the ability for a higher manifestation and prefer manifestation
over rebirth because when you are part of these Cycles it’s only within the
human realm and the animal realm and the bird realm inside this realm that we are part of that people get born that’s
right and and because it’s they call it spontaneous birth like the Dava realm Brahma realm is a spontaneous birth not
a wom born not water born not egg born so it’s spontanous that’s the word but
and then the hell thing would would they say yeah all you can basically do in the hell Realms is wait for the light span
to end that’s it you you really have anything else other than complete suffering until the lifespan ends no
really choice to do anything even the Flames come in because then then you literally are purged completely into
nothingness although there is one jica tale where the Buddha offers to help somebody in Hell realm and he’s
immediately reborned out of it but I don’t know how that works anyway maybe go to aan pad who who specializes in the
stuff to to find out about like this but or chat DP or something but anyway yeah that’s fascinating so please continue
yeah okay so there can be beings that are drawn into the two lower hell Realms
not by their Free Will of valtion but because they’re dragged there due to triggery and these you can release and
I’ve done that personally so you can go in and snatch them and bring them out but there there will be there a cost at
doing so so it’s not something you do out of your Goodwill whatever um okay so
so that’s a whole other discussion then there are the two intermediary rounds that one is the demon real and the snake
real and the demon real and the snake real is often associated with the nagas and the nagas they have a lot of palaces
there and they have they’re associated with gemstones and diamonds and all sorts of things and and that is also a
kind of a version of of wisdom a gemstone is when you’re in contact with
the narams a gemstone is is associated with a type of wisdom which is
interesting in itself so so when people are saying well I got this gem we are using it in our language as well even
the three jewels in Buddhism yeah exactly so that’s the Naga teaching so when you again language is super
important maybe I should say maybe no no but when we talk about language in these texts oh yeah gym of wisdom this is a
gym I I came across this this wisdom gem you know it tells you what you’re dealing with in your contemplation
practices because people again when we studying these ancient text they are not
to be interpreted literally they are having hidden with wisdom within wisdom
within levels of wisdom they are never directly telling us so here the
understanding of the words tell us the classification the different kind of Concepts whatever thrown in there tells
us how we are to work with this in our contemplation you see studying these
texts on for me on the right level as far as I recall it again two steps here
is the understanding of what to look for and that of course could be a projection and it could be an interpretation that
is way over Beyond whatever it was said but that’s my tradition so in where I
came from first and foremost we grew up with the understanding of all of these subtle forms the arupa RS and all the
beings that were there beneath us and above us completely natural born into it part of our everyday life that’s part of
the Tibetan tradition it’s there because the people that lived before the time of the Buddha were living with nature which
we now call either heretic or Pagan or what whatever they would call it today
but that was a natural way of living these are mountain people when you live in Mountain areas there are mountain
beings there are the beings of the soil there are beings of the sun there are beings of everything that not the sun
itself but they emanate using the energies of the Sun or they emanate through and I use the word instead of
birth I use emanate they emanate from the wind they’re associated with the wind if the wind has certain faculties
or things to it then these beings can emanate out of it they can get a short
span quote unquote emanation or birth into this real where you can contact with them if they can get in contact
with you they can prolong their existence so that way it’s a complet natural understanding of having these
different RS as part of your cosmology and that’s why Tibetan Buddhism differs
highly from Thea when we talk about the Buddha himself as far as I know and and
what I have learned in this life whether it’s true or not we don’t know but he was um born as a Roger that means he
came from a royal lineage and he was born in a heart which was not just about
having faculties and knowledge and information from previous birth it was also specific classification within the
PRI of lineages so he was born with a specific concept of reality that was tied to Hinduism and the different gods
and the worshiping of the different gods well I just throw a little bit of not corrections but for my understanding
that that uh um uh he wasn’t he became an Arad after
full Awakening as a title meaning a certain thing but but I know what you mean it was kind of predestined or
prophesies to become that so I guess we can say that and then also the the what was the other thing you said the um I
will call that a manipulation actually again I’m I’m remove viewing this could be true or not I’m remove
viewing this um for me as I understand Roger and the Royal lineages no he is a
royal he was of the royal class in India but Arad is is a is no that came later
yeah later that’s what I’m saying in the original as far as I know the original
teachings and the original understanding of the classes of India MH a Roger or a
royal inage a nobility nobility pay attention to the word noble noble is a heart a heart means
Noble so you’re born a nobility you’re born and a heart and again there are different
interpretations I think the word that they’re at least modernly translated as no Noble is um Aryan actually I think
they use AR and I’m avoiding that word I see okay so sorry about that so arot is
is from my understanding there’s four stages of awaking a stream enture once return non- return or not right is is
fully awaken me and let me explain why that later okay because again people
this is not studied I’m just tapping into this information thought forms right [Music]
away first and foremost the teachings of the Buddha has lat later by the councils
which the tripic councils whatever the the Buddhist councils there have been several of them yes were made from being
a teachings of nobility and a heart lineages iron Lines within the brahans
and the Priestly cultures into becoming an every man
teaching the Buddha resigned let me use that word from his
Birthright he stepped out of his birth right as an aot and Noble nobility Royal
born with all of the cast uh prerogatives you has as a nobility as a
Roger as a noble born he he’s he’s normally classed as uh from what the uh
the military and um the warrior and what was the other I guess yeah yeah ruling
land like Kings Kings and warriors were one class and supposedly in ancient Egypt there was one above them the the
the BR the the binal and the priest class basically at that time they were
classed above and he was known for going against the social order of India and allowing anyone into to to to to to
learn about Awakening and whatever yes so that was strictly within specific
classes within India so what sidad did was he renounced his Birthright
renounced yes yeah renounced so he he left the he left the palace and he went
out into the world and he took on him different practices yes what we then
have later on is that when you try to build a bridge between something you were born into and something you achieve
by practice you have to have a keyword that Bridges these two things and that’s
where they retailer a heart to become something you can become via the Noble
eight-fold Path so you can get the same prerogatives as the ones that were born
into the nobility and this is a completely different level of information so but that’s the point
that’s why I’m saying again this is my internal information why they change the
concept of the Ahad from being something you could only be born into as a cast prerogative into something you could
achieve through your practice and this goes along with what he taught the brahans that you’re not a Brahman by
birth yeah you’re a Brahman by deed action and practice right it it doesn’t matter you know and that’s why we have
the word Noble in the noble Eightfold Path in it’s not kind of you say the
correct Behavior it’s the noble Behavior associate in you with the a heart
prerogatives that you can achieve not by birth but by practice y
study practice and that’s how every man realization every man can become a lamp in himself and become enlightened
because he can achieve these Noble traits that earlier were associated with
the priy class that you can achieve yourself and at the same time not
shaking the Apple card by it’s the Noble Truth of suffering right we have some of
these beings that feed on causing suffering but the Buddha didn’t necessarily go against that but he said
there is the Noble Truth of suffering but there’s also the noble truth of the sensation of suffering yeah so that’s
that’s where the noble gets changed into the ability as a warrior concept of
being awaken aware of being in the the the when you become an heart through
your own practice and you get that that classification then that means that you
are fully aware of what you’re dealing with you become as as kind of you see in
the in the system of India when you were born as a noble you were aware of the system you had the governing F faculties
you were the one that were aware of how to work with other classes of society
you were governing the other classes of society you were the ruling Factor you were the ruling hand you could go in and
and and and determine the destiny over other people and the the pried classes
did the same thing you had the ones of the Kings and then you had the ones within the pried classes and they were a
completely different breed and I don’t want to go into that they were playing on other tangents of how they had their
power but what the Buddha then taught people that through the noble The Right
Use of energy and and your awareness I’ll use aw awareness here instead of Consciousness once you gain the
prerogatives of of becoming a noble and a h with your own rights then it would
be by your own work your own effort your own investigation and your own experiences that where then nobility in
that manner were then associated with true wisdom exactly seeing reality as it
truly is not but would you begin by Birthright and what what were to kind of
strengthen your own power position within the cast system because they used it that way wrongful use of energy and
power to to to govern through their Birthright quote unquote and if there
were any disputes Birthright that’s just how it was if you were poor you you had no choice and he he called in the
question that when they did the the the hymns and the betas he said how many of you in this day and age actually have
direct basically I’m paraphrasing here have direct experience of this you know you’re basically reciting these things but how many actually can go to Realms
uh and verify where this information comes for oneself and none of them could really do it but the Buddha claimed to
and he you said so yeah that that’s right and this this um yeah so this
stuff so what the Buddha did again let me speak on the behalf of the Buddha as I understand whether it’s true or not
but what he did was he broke down that that entire car system that’s what it said and he takes the same concept of
breaking down the car system and and kind of superimpose it onto the det as
well and saying that after he had worked with people inside the rerams and all
the different levels because he meets a lot of different entities beneath himself while he’s out in nature while
he’s going through his different stages and he’s tested by Mara and all of these kind of things and he afterwards he
invited a certain time of his day for other beings to come visit and ask questions too from what I understand but
Mara is the King quote unquote of the yakas or the demon Realms so Mar is the king of the demon Realms of course
because s as a king himself then he will only meet the highest level of the different kingdoms or Realms of these
and also Moro claims to be the false leader of the highest uh sensual Heaven realm those who Delight in the creation
of others too he claims to be the god of that realm too but he’s not anyway so go ahead yeah so of course that’s why he
meets the highest level and he also meets the Lesser but just put it this way that there are when we meet the
different deities and the different Davis and the different entities these different classes of rer rer beings they
they pop up according to the type of energy we’re in and that’s the suda you got there that talks about that too in
his little bit clunky way it talks about how you through your different interpretation of uh what your senses
meet and come in contact with you come in contact with the equal type of of
entity or de or D well what yeah whatever he was doing he then finally
started talking to them found out what their realm what realm or classification they belong to then he found out you
know what they did what what did they do to lead them there in their past lives so he determin their karma comma and
then found out and this this is a really interesting one that that’s it’s it’s blows kind of my mind to determine what
gave them Pleasure and Pain and what kind of food did they eat you know a lot of these David Realms are said to eat this em this Divine nectar or whatever
they eat and some of these d Realms in the stories are said that they can’t miss a meal and it’s a really kind of um
subtle substance that they have to that that they live on and then there’s been Wars with the jealous Gods over some of
this stuff but yeah I don’t know and then also if whether he actually lived amongst them at some point in in
previous lives or something like that so that’s a lot of stuff to to to figure out in these Realms that most people
don’t even have contact with you know I think the contemplation of whether or not he lived with this in the last real
is the first if we’re saying it’s a legit text would be it could be another one who had what we let me put this way
the text has authenticity to it this is someone who has experienced something I’m just highly doubting it’s the Buddha
okay let me put this way my parallel would be your remembrance of working who
you worked with on the workstations right yeah I don’t want to put that let’s keep it within this because otherwise we’re confusing people this is
about when you do pseudo studies I know it’s important to understand which context are you working within sure and
that’s and we can’t spread it out to all sorts of other things and this is where my bachelor degree kicks in well but
this is why I’m asking you for this because this points to direct experience and while it’s a text it’s actually we
do that with the devs because I plenty experience with the Dem do that I got with the demon RS as well we just keep
it with in the cont so yeah we keep it in the context so were you ever able to determine what they ate and how they
derive pleasure and pl so sorry and we’re yeah we’ll have to do part two on the next text cuz we’re almost up to an
hour here but yeah my personal experience is they don’t eat they don’t eat they absorb oh that’s part of the
real type of quote unquote food they’re part of the realm they they are as I said they emerge out of the wind yeah so
they are quote unquote fed by the wind oh brilliant okay they are emerging out of the trees so quote unquote once they
go back into the trees they they are part of the tree the processes of the tree I would say that that what you
refer to where they are quote unquote eating certain things we’ve heard Gods eat certain things or whatever we have
that across many cultures that came into be when humans began to figure out how to to get the
benefit of the God’s what you call uh Grace yeah you you figure out okay
they’re eating honey or whatever you would put out honey so that they would look good kind at you so they would
protect your household sure so that’s a human manipulation of quote unquote the god but there are what here we’re talking
about if we’re talking about some kind of susten needs to be ingested that’s a rer round that’s a form realm that
belongs to the the Lesser Realms yes because it said the uh the higher brah and formless realm they they eat joy and
Bliss that’s their food joy and Bliss yes so which is again I would question
that highly well yeah but I mean whatever that means but no again this is
where I find the translations bad but we must remember that the ones that wrote this they were not highly trained and
educated philosoph philosophical oriented with a a broad Spectre of of
words so they of course would pick these words a lot of them probably didn’t have the experiences either so it’s these
words these words are used symbolically so what it means when they say that they feed of joy and what you
say BL Bliss means that that they thrive
in environments where there is joy and Bliss so when you are in your meditative
state in joy and Bliss it is easier to get in contact with them yeah and that would make sense because um there’s a
correspondence between which jna there is and which realm uh beings associated
with whatever realm that is so that would make would line up so they are attracted because they have desire again
we need to use the terminology the Buddha used himself he used the words thirst desire attraction
we’re drawn to We crave it and that’s that’s where we get to this but that
doesn’t mean that he’s talking about eating and he might say what are they instead of saying what are they eating
what are they living on substance they subance yeah yeah how are they that’s just a human interpretation of what it
means and it’s not particular sure the Pleasure and Pain yeah what what gives them what are they doing with their time
you know what do they prefer their preferences right like yeah what yeah and that’s again ALS when we talk about
the ancient languages especially the the languages in the quote unquote esoteric text or the text that are work with the
the multi-layered aspect of our reality in the hidden Realms they might be
associated with a specific way of a word like like food in the human realm in our
traditional language that word would be used as food but in the PO text as well
as in the Hebrew text as well as in some of the Greek text we talking about a language where one word has multiple
meaning well exactly and even that one um there’s the four nutrients one of only one of them is physical food the
other one’s emotions thoughts and Consciousness right so yeah so you could say well what kind of as we already said
but just so you understand when people read this in English good point they need to question themselves is this an
actual sure or is it a symbolic because the ones that wrote it didn’t have
another word they didn’t have the word sub susten it they didn’t have the word
uh being emerged into they didn’t have the word to to kind of an osmosis effect
they didn’t have these Phantom processes you know so it was easier just to say well they they feed of this then
everybody would understand yeah and I’ve got that flaw too because uh I think my early years having been in a a Christian
Day School where we didn’t do much maybe just one hour it was it was basically taught literally and so that that that
runs maybe deep and okay so now this last one before we start wrapping up here about whether or not they has
memories of actually being born or living with those that group of beings or maybe they mean means it in a broader
realm if it just has to be in that realm you know that fourth genre realm or you
know associated with that maybe it’s a wider thing than just like a a group of beings or maybe it’s I I don’t know um
yeah could you discern whether or not you had lived amongst the before or my
first Natural Instinct would be that would be against the natural laws if you are born reborn in a deam I don’t
you once you’re there your energy is so subtle so what would pull you back other
than a type of magic or something let me put that way because we’re now in that round where there are different groups
within the priesthood classes that have the ability to draw in more subtle
entities sure and that would be one one thing and I I’ll just go back again to what I think that’s commonly said and I
have no idea myself is that due to past actions that one day lifespan will eventually end so then depending on
one’s actions in the D realm that time and due to who knows beginningless time
uh potential beginningless existence in time due to past actions in that that are taking longer to ripen in their
comma than than due to that past comma that that’s maybe ripening around that time of that death well then depending
on all that how that play out well then there’ll be some kind of affinity for the next birth whether it be higher
lower or the same and I don’t know how that works and I don’t know if that’s accurate not again again that’s human
interpretation doesn’t mean much to me I’m sorry but this my that this is where when sometimes when these when when
people try to when people who have these extraord
extraordinary experiences of reality are sharing this with people who
do not have these extraordinary experiences of reality then the group not that they’re less or
anything but they’re trying to put it into system which they can work with to get that understanding and in that
process too many words to put in there there are too inaccurate and has very little to do with how it is is
experienced and one of the things that I think is super important when we talk about the current enormous amount of
text that is around as we saw it with any oral teacher that has been in human history including what we understand as
Christianity what not is that we have the teach teachers that are teaching it orally and then we have all of the
interpreters that later on produces tons sure of Mind forms to to explain what
they don’t understand there’s official commentaries and sub commentaries too to all these texts which is a huge amount
of mort but that doesn’t make it better it just no actually it goes against the entire as far as I see the entire
teachings of the Buddha well that then this is a very hot topic and I will just say I’m more diplomatic on this on on
one hand I’ve got the where people completely dismiss them and they won’t even look at the commentaries and then
you’ve got the other kind of extreme where they say oh no you can’t really understand the really uh the text with
our level of awareness because we’re we’ve kind of stooped so low that you have to go to these commentaries of
really high level practitioners that are going into that can actually understand this and extrapolate on because the
Buddha only taught a certain way to certain people and part of the picture is just not there without the
commentaries and fall somewhere in between these things but let me just rephrase this last I would like to
address that so I’m not misunderstood because I’m that’s not my stand I didn’t say I know that no no I’m saying these
are the two extremes you already just said that you my standpoint is that absolutely I as part of also bachelor
degree in theology there are the exact same buildup it’s not big difference this is where the scholars work the
commentaries can be super useful as long as we remember these are commentaries
for people who have studied this is their interpretation it’s we can also say the
enormous Corpus of text that is around the quote unquote teachings of the Buddha and the sudas the primary sudas
that has been deemed these are the primary sutas and all of the Corpus of text that’s been built on later can also
be very helpful as long as we remember these are interpretation of other like
we are doing here it is not the truth it is not The Credo of Buddhism this I I I
totally tend to lean towards that because that’s somewhere in the middle right because some people dismiss it
completely out of hand without even really having read the commentaries and you I wouldn’t say that’s entirely the
Thai Forest uh school um but they they don’t tend to put as much importance on these commentaries and sub commentaries
it’s some like the the Burmese and the the Myanmar Burmese these kind of schools which really put a lot of
emphasis on the the commentaries and subc commentaries and I’ll just say this and we don’t even have English
translations of these yet so I’m just like why is this not there people chat GPT can a project can get this not too
long so yeah I would say before I have any kind of further thing other than what I just said we have to at least
have an English translation of these things uh but but anyway so just going back to this last one before we wrap up
so maybe I’ll rephrase this last one instead of one having a past life memory of whether they were born into the same
real I guess maybe it could be rephrase this is there any kind of past life memory
where you remember meeting you know either this realm or being in another I
think that might be a little bit more easily discernable or maybe we can at least look at that question and then say Oh yeah I remember like five lifetimes
ago I met this being but and we see this in the text too where Saka the king of
the Gods is actually just a title so there’s the Buddha was Saka at some point you know some of his you know
whatever it was just a title that is bestowed upon a certain being and so yeah who knows and then all the jica
tales how you know um different even my Trey I think is in a couple jica Tales
where he had interactions with the Buddha so yeah I think that’s that’s later well I know I know that’s that’s
another thing but let’s just as an example let’s just say I think yeah like as you just agreed that maybe instead of
knowing whether you were reborn with them that you just met this being at some point in the past
no I would put it differently again what’s what’s the purpose of the text is to round this up for me that text is an
instruction so that you in your meditation contemplation practice when you’re beginning to go into the subtle
faculties where you understand how your faculties when they come in contact with specific realm will also allow you to
contact with this the the beings that are existing there and in that you ask yourself since I am now in contact with
these beings does this then mean that I have had a previous contact with them which naturally in that line of thought
goes in have I had an earlier Incarnation there and then of course you need to contemplate on well if I once
were a diva why am I now back in human form which would then imply that if that’s the case then I must have to some
degree done something that pulled me back into rer form if I had achieved non
ruper form or could it be because I was in a section of the de Realms where I
had still had not been saturated yet I still had thirst for some of the the
faculties of the rer Realms I still had a thirst for taste I still had a thirst
for hearing I still had a thirst for tactile sensation and that’s why this is
called the desire realm the human desire so so in that way if if I through a
lifelong practice had been meditating under a bodh tree for instance sitting
in this Gard of of nonp Pleasures which were an overabundant Garden of pleasures
and in that one had got myself into that subtle realm of of coexisting without
perceiving coexisting without hearing coexisting without smelling and tasting and just being the word would be Bland
but still be in the light Realms where there would be sensations of a place
where there would be sensations of meaning and purpose
sorry there would be sensations of of a unified beingness within this but there
would be no distinction between uh a sense of self and my surroundings because that’s the Devon you just you
just you just become what you you are in contact with so if you are in contact with a tree you become a tree and these
are different types of experiences that are that are super rich but they are
they are not leaving an imprint of a sensation they’re not leaving an imprint of an experience they become a different
types of transition different types of transparency this is best way I can put
it different states of of existence that’s just like waveforms and if there
is after been there for a while and having all of the the the Bliss that follows with that that’s the best word
as in being in in unified in unification with all of these different levels of of
energies that are in the div Realms there might have been this little craving this
little yeah this is not what I thought if you for instance if you have have per
purposly if that’s a word purpose purposely purposely perhaps pushed your meditation
practice uh Beyond when what you were actually ready for you had might use J
techniques that you for some whatever reason were really skilled at perhaps in the past life you were a priest and you
knew how to manipulate energy you knew how to get yourself into a bliss State you know knew how to get yourself into
the different forms then the lws of the Cycles would naturally at the time of your your your leaving this physical
matter form would naturally draw you to the aropa forms but it doesn’t mean you belong there it doesn’t mean that you’re
ready to be there it doesn’t mean that you then are aligned with where you are there it doesn’t mean you’re ready for
the Eternal Realms of of nonself Eternal that’s a long time yeah no but it’s not
it’s not Eternal but that’s how it feels you see the sensation of time comes with the sensation of of Adam the sensation
of self self is the one that determines if I exist or not self is the one that
determines if if this I contact with how I value it how I perceive it how I I I
but once you get into the DEA Realms there is another you don’t have self you don’t you are Unified with whatever you
in contact we can see not the gross level of self we experience here and
that’s the whole that it’s often said that these they get more subtle and subtle and subtle and subtle and with
that you lose your sense of self hence the teachings of another and that’s why you become part of your meditation
object hence we are practicing the ability to be absorbed so that we don’t freak out I was going to say this once
we get to the places where self no longer has a because self is connected to R performs in the the AR performs you
don’t have self as we understand self yeah so point being for for me the way
that it’s worded there is to investigate once we get in contact with
these arupa Realms investigate why is it that we now are
able to come in contact with these Aram is it because we have had a rebirth then
as we contemplate on have I had a birth prior in an AR rubber real if that’s the
case why have I now rest why am I now back does that mean I have a certain
thirst does it mean I still have a certain craving that I need to look at and that’s what we then need to
investigate yeah that was that was one of the stages um because of what deeds and that’s what I would interpret what
what Deeds have led to a birth in that realm and so even though it’s pointing actually towards other Divine beings in
this particular instance it’s just always on our that’s right so it’s it’s similar though but I mean that he’s
actually Discerning divine beings and stuff like that in relation to himself but it the same thing because he did
determine this in his own past lives on his nights and Awakening and like yeah like you’re saying but what what that
practitioner also is saying is that the first questions that pop into his mind are similar to The the faculties and the
way he interprets the rer Realms and I think there’s something of that text that’s missing yeah it very well could
be and so you say that practitioner and that’s that’s a good point because it it’s pointed out when I was an
unenlightened bodh SAA bent on awakening so it doesn’t necessarily what I mean
that could have been who knows how many lifetimes ago if that was actually sidartha you know 500 lifetimes ago or
thousands of lifetimes ago you know we don’t know exactly when in his
progression Journey or whatever that what that’s being referred to is you know that’s aning part of the context
you didn’t gave me as well I forgot it started off while I was still an unenlightened bod Safa intent on
awakening intent on awakening because that might have indicated that he private pre or prively pre or prior has
had used techniques yeah oh yeah that where he got himself into a rebirth that
he was not really entitled to by doing certain practices that is possible here
it says monks before my Awakening when I was not yet fully awaken still only a bodh SATA I perceived only light but did
not see forms so that doesn’t say which said it yeah so we don’t know exactly
how long in the past this could have been during a lifetime it doesn’t stipulate but for me again this is a
road map into asking the questions that lead to the practices of contemplation
that begins to get you into the understanding of how these round works you need to ask questions to be able to
get some kind of answer so of course we begin with the questions that are in
alignment with our current state of being and then that’s the terminology that’s used there it doesn’t mean that
he actually thought they were eating he was just for me that’s just showing metaphorically this is what we ask first
and this this aligns with my meditation experience well you have some kind of experience or realization and then it
could it occurs to me oh what happens if I were to do this and just like we see he he kind it goes progressively oh I
saw I saw lighter auras but then I thought well what if I see forms and then what if I actually talk to them and
instead of just being so it occurred you know as it progresses from from that we
then if we then at this then he mentions the eight stages because if you then
understand this is the primary stage then you take the same question and then you put it through the eight stages and
that’s why I mean I think there’s some of the text that’s missing because then you you contemplate on the same question
through the eight stages you ask that question in terms of light you ask that question in terms of that you ask that
question in terms of and you go into a more more subtle level of the same question which then allows you to
contemplate and experience via that question in the different stages different kind of associations or types
of energy that is connected to this well that’s brilliant because there’s so many times in the suit is where I remember he
just says oh and then it occurred to me I was like well how did that happen well that can happen out the sure I’ve had
that experience too but it it’s also nice to to have like a particular method or particular question that’s just
progressively applied to different the practice with the Janis where you work through the AG stages of the JIS so
that’s why I was you see there there is a key Point here the
eight path Noble Path the eight levels of the noble what is called the eight-fold Noble Path the eight stages
of JRE the eight stages of different forms of energy there is a significance
with the number eight here and we can’t Overlook that either it’s not random
good point yeah as nothing is well R this been the fascinating as ever and I’m glad I could
pick one here to get your expertise and I was just blown away as I usually am and I’m glad this this um we use this Su
as a context to to bring in what you have to offer here so thanks again oh you’re welcome and yeah and we’ll go on
to a zint text and then the next recording little story thank you
Unedited transcript on our comments on the Zen story of “part 2”:
okay welcome to this part two of our suta study or this will be a standalone
to this is the Zin text can’t remember how I came across this maybe somebody else mentioned it in another article or
thing that I read and before I read this uh it’s called the subtle art of a cat I
think it’s a Japanese text by isai chosan 1659 to
1741 probably pronouncing that wrong um I want to frame it in the sense of
this is a kind of a wisdom text but in the sense of nonharming so yes it belongs to like a
samurai class who are actively using Force as part of their day-to-day right
or part of what they do in life um but they’re mixing it with kind of spiritual means or whatever um I want to see how
how could the wisdom being glean from this in a in a path that does non-harm you know non-harming is it applicable
can we apply it and what’s particularly important U when it comes to light of Randy green who is with me today hello
Randy hi and thank you for being here yes and likewise is that this is this
year she’s mentioned is the kind of correct use of power and she may say
more about that I just want to kind of tease that because that does involve some unpacking quite a bit actually and
can check her work from more on that from what she does if whatever she doesn’t say you can check out which
she’s already said about that but let’s let’s stick in there with that’s that’s the kind of priming I’d like to do
before we read this text and it’s about eight pages so this might take just a little bit here I might read faster at
some points but here we go the story of the cat’s Eerie skill I guess that’s
another translation for this Nico or muu Jitsu is found in a traditional Book of
swordsmanship Secrets called in AKA SOI
written by this guy is uh chosen in the 18th century chosen was a samurai
in SE Yad domain and was very was well
acquainted with Shintoism Confucianism and Buddhism with particular knowledge
. . . . .
into one’s own being per ception of the self one really is they are all one and
the same thing the only really comments I have is
you know these these Zen teachings they they don’t invite a lot of
discussion for me they’re just kind of lay it out like it is the some of the questions I have is just to go back over
and read certain pieces of the text because it’s really wrench in in and and
dense in a way and it takes time to absorb it’s not immediately apparent because the whole view that it has on
how we normally perceive things is kind of thrown out the window and goes to deeper or more profound levels than
we’re normally used to and it’s it’s it doesn’t address our normal way of being
in in the ways that a lot of people are familiar with without a lot of practice and things like this although it is more
easily accessible with these cats right and uses each of their techniques and approaches as a teaching mechanism yeah
this text is uh difficult for me for many reasons first and foremost because it’s a completely different
cultural um representation is the wrong way to put it it it Taps into a
different culture it Taps into different mindset and it Taps into a different interpretation of the teachings uh that
we call Buddhism and I want to put in here and this is again this is me just right Zen does go fly in the face of a
lot of those but I’m not going to go into what Scholars have explained to us and this is how it is and how they
interpreted I’m as always I’m just doing this this is my opinion this is what I’m picking up on this is how I that’s right
because Zen scholar is that’s kind of a misn number because Zen is meant for practice not for Scholars usually yeah
but when we talk about how to interpret these ancient texts there are always a lot of people who are very cleverly putting out their opinion and this is my
opinion that I cleverly put out there without having studied this for for for
Century so to speak so so the first thing that my mind does in this is first and foremost it positions it within its
own culture and that is we are here talking uh the Japanese culture we are within the framework on
Confucianism we within the framework of ying and yang and the tow and how that
was unfolded as a philosophy that was understood and this is from the S 17th hund yeah so The Interpreter of the
original tale of the cats let’s just call all of that uh interpreted in a different way
as an for me as I see it as a means to an end to explain Confucianism compared
to the original meaning of the cats for me the cat it’s a hybrid text and that makes that’s kind of quote unquote for
me the worst kind of text because you have to say which section belongs to the the writer and which section belongs to
an oral tradition the the cats my understanding is is completely purely made up like a lot of this in text as as
for yes but I don’t feel that way I feel the story of the cats are actually as it said it has been handed down in lineages
and belongs to the original some of the original sayings within the samurai culture and for that we need to
understand the samurai culture and I’m not going into that here but they had a specific mindset as the warrior Clan
they were they were were sords for hire they were under the emperor they were
living through a specific order of things they were with within themselves a kind of Brotherhood and they had they
lived in the world in a very very special way and for me the story of the cats are the different stages of the
training you go through as a samurai samurai where you learn to First work with the techniques then you learn to
work with the life force as it has its access point through the two gates in the body that is called the Gate of
Heaven and the Gate of of Earth hence the Heaven and Earth and then you learn
to connect to the path or the way which is put there which is similar to the
confusion ISM interpretation of the cosmic forces that are playing itself
out in polarities in ying and yang that is then also associated with the ones that go on the path they learn to
utilize the forces of ying and yang understanding that everything is interconnected and for me that’s the
short essence of that story of the cats to understand that as a samurai you both
need the techniques you need to understand your personal power your how you can utilize your mind and how when
you use your mind and when you use your power connected to the life force that you have as an individual it is worth
nothing unless you associate it with or tap into and come part of the path and
with that understand the Deep philosophy of Cosmos of life and death and you as a
samurai that is a hired sword is the rule of life and death on the be Behar
if that’s a word on the be behest of an emperor or someone else who has used you
as an extended arm to take a life and summarize thems as far as as as I know
and and can see and have understanding of is that they there there were groups
that broke away from that and became Buddhist monk later on and that’s my understanding how sen arose taking a
very ancient tradition and then with of Confucianism and the old understanding of being a samurai of which um I I have
knowledge of but I I have no Source I can say this come from there it’s an internal internal knowledge that within
summarized thems had hidden teachings of which this cat story is an example of
how they we could call esoteric knowledge that they had hidden knowledge they had as part of their Brotherhood
and that was secretly that was guarded from Master to master that’s oral teachings again which we have very
little knowledge of and then we have conf confusion ism sorry that came in
later on and I’m not even sure that it historically matches some of the earliest versions of Samurai culture and
this is where we need that’s where we need the the scholars and their understanding of history and and how
these Tendencies came into play so so that’s that’s important when we when we study a text that we get that
context so in a way I kind of have said what I can say about the cat story and what is to be interpreted there as part
of your practice as a master of physicality of uh the forces life force
itself and the cosmic energies and how you are to yield and wield these uh in
terms of how you utilize your sword how you utilize your com combat techniques and how you utilize your ability because
it’s very it’s it’s of course they use cats because if you look at the samurai the the technique the way that they are
sneaking the way that they are sneaking into their prey is the same as a cat hat
so as summar all the body features with the black clothing or whatever kind of things they had it was not black back
then but we we see that today but they were like cats crawling on on rooftops
and and jumping from this to that whatever so hence the use of the cats as an appropriate and of course the rats
are all the bad guys right so so that understanding of that one and then it’s enveloped in that context of a later
interpreter that had a different cultural background and a different age that try to blend it into specific ideas
of and using it as an example to to explain some of the the SC practices
within Buddhism context and using conf fusionism and other stuff to explain
what he was trying to to get across and for me that’s kind of the worst type of
energetically hyper text because you’re one thing that that takes your thought processes and energetic focus in One
Direction and then you have all of that and I have to say it as his chatter
because when I listen to to what he said and how he interpreted first and
foremost he’s twisting the text into something it’s not this is critical text
um interpretation and secondly he had a lot of very very clever words that he had
studied but he had not personal experienced any of it h well the reason
well thanks I I guess I downplayed the context of this CU When I think of sin teachings they just there’s really not
much limit uh just a lot of our imagination like um the flower sermon
but it’s what they actually point to that’s supposed to be particularly important but you’re right in in Asian
places wherever Buddhism went it had to incorporate what was already there because the social order is different so
it couldn’t just be quote unquote pure bu Buddhism it would have never taken foot or been accepted so especially what
they say in China and I guess Japan and maybe even Korea it had to incorporate elements that are already there and in
this case it’s the maybe Shintoism and then and then you’ve got the Confucianism and the Daoism so this is
and then Samurai throw this in here it’s a unique blend that all has to be considered in this um the reason I chose
this is because um it’s so foreign to me because the whole and I’m sorry but I
can’t help but have criticism In Praise here too which is really shallow in a sense so I’ll just try to make this
quick the the the criticism of course is that you know you’re killing people so the
original Buddhist teachings you know is is is of harmlessness in the in the
precept of harmlessness in the simil of the saw is that even if a robbers who were holding me limb to Limb and tearing
my limbs as sun with a saw if you don’t have complete love and kindness towards them you’ve misunderstood my teachings
so then to to classify this in some kind of Buddhist sense it just seems completely outrageous in one sense sense
to me however what I do feel um this text is interesting on is the teaching
of non-self which is in Buddhism seems to be no it’s a really hard one to understand people consider no self you
know this our selflessness ego it’s a really hard thing to convey so when when
it talks about you know forgetting oneself purposelessness intentness and
uh you know none of this stuff it still doesn’t make sense unless you I feel it does doesn’t make the kind of sense it
would to me without having a meditation practice and and working with this
notion of non-self because not self sorry I just did right there so this plays a huge part into it you’re talking
about the in um getic realities and you know Heaven and Earth and these the
conceptual things but if there’s no ref you know if there’s this no reference point from it in blending with all this
these traditional ideas so that’s where I thought it was it’s something interesting but then again how do I take
these insights when there’s no the the heart that’s connected to this at at its core you know on a conventional level
now this points beyond the conventional level still at the conventional level it’s it’s your K it Samurai stuff so
that’s so even though it might have uh profound access points into all these
other higher level things at at one core or one interpretation on a relative
level what is it founded on so what I’ve I’ve heard from other um aan basically
all this is technically correct but it’s lacking compassion we we talked about this on a previous version of this
recording that we did and you know compassion of course is not mentioned because the whole point of compassion at least in my under interpretation is
acknowledging suffering and then uh really uh wanting the other to release
from that suffering and and find peace and so killing someone in order to
achieve that that’s not really did you did you ask the other person whether they wanted that to happen or not
probably not you know maybe some would prefer that as a a release for peace but
you know if you’re not Consulting so that’s where I think these these Samurai teachings while technically correct on a
not self level and an emptiness level and all these other profound Notions of reality it’s missing the heart you know
it’s missing the compassion kindness you know equinity and rejoicing it it’s kind
of a cold hard strategy anyway so yeah I’m just going to keep repeating myself because
again I think we need to understand again my opinion what you referring to the buddhis SATA path there are levels
within Buddhism that doesn’t go in the buddhis SATA path the buddhis SATA path is the path of compassion as far as I
know I know this probably too simplified but when we talk about the path for instance if we look at the
samurai path it’s very similar to the original a atian path with the lack of
love and kindness so other than that yeah you you’ve heard some people argue that well if you’re fully awakened there’s no
self there’s no Karma created so if they were to kill themselves then it was not going to create Karma because they’re
already completely enlightened either so they would do it under certain things now I don’t know if that’s correct or not but I have heard some people mention
that so I don’t know about that but so in that sense I can see that but the the loving kindness of not wanting to create
harm is not immediately apparent in this because of a traditional samurai craft of killing you know yeah but what I see
in that text with the cat in the three stages is the the last cat or the the
Clever Cat the the the big one goes into the room goes in with no self go in with
no purpose go in with no I’m going to do this or whatever going in becoming part of the room and the energies of the room
not seeing the rat as an as an object as an otherness but seeing as an interconnectedness and with that
realizes that what whatever uh whatever it is the rat is as well as part of the
cosmic path as part of we are all of the same fabric we are all brewed out of the same cloth we are all made of the same
type of energies we are all on the path of whatever we doing whatever patterns that we are participating in and the the
Clever Cat instead of killing the rat takes it and carries it away and the rat allows that to happen so in that there
are no longer colliding forces of two cell that wants to stand on each and one
of their own self-identification of I am this and I am that I have this power I
can do this I can do that I got this skill I can whatever it is or even thinking about it or realizing it or
noticing it but then also being able to talk about it so so the way that it goes in and and the rat does not move because
the cat is not threatening so to get into the compassion path with the the heart and the vibration and the No it
depends on how you interpret exactly so the this is a text about how and he goes
into complete detail and yes there’s a lot of interesting words and stuff about you know like you’re saying it’s really
important that you said this doesn’t have attainment well I’m not going to go that far to put past that notion on it
but I will Echo that that it’s often said that there’s a lot of people in Zin that can pass Coons but they’re dry
they’re dry intellectual passings of the they understand it intellectually but they don’t understand it they don’t
have a a personal realization of it so they just
on a cognitive level they they’ve got it but that’s not the full understanding and realization that’s a representation
of the internal battles between the interpretator of the teachings of the Buddha because in my opinion we must I’m
talking about Zen and passing Z again it it has branched into different as we see
within all religion that you have a core of a teacher and then you have all the interpreters and then it branches out
into all different types of interpretations and normally as we’ve seen it within Christianity as we see it
within Buddhism and this is again my interpretation we have that outlet through the
disciples that then understand the teachings in each and one of their own way and then go out and teach their groups in each and one of their own ways
lots of schools of Buddhism exactly and that’s so sen is just a different school and for me it was picked up by the ones
that and now here that’s a personal interpretation and it is probably not correct but I would not be surprised to
open it up I would not be surprised if there was a class of old summaries that were like the old cat had were done with
with there were no longer young spring chickens that could do all sorts of of moves they had gone through the use of
personal power and just to understand that that in itself was empty like everything else and they had come to the
point where they understood that the only way to carry forth was the nonkilling was that this can be sold in
in another way where there are no enemies where there are no opposition where I am the same as you are and I can
carry out this house because the whole issue is that the rat is in a place where it doesn’t belong so the old cat
is wise enough to go in and say okay you are causing a lot of harm here you don’t belong in this environment and then then
go with a non-hostile approach that is calm and caring and and
what we would what I would say compassionate because I don’t put no that’s a that’s a really good point because I don’t put compassion to way I
would agree I would agree in this terms either I have a different interpretation of compassion so for me compassion is
about balance point of energies that creates no Distortion where each one can be on her own path in the rightful way
and the rightful form and the way that we are supposed to be on that path so we can complete our individual Journey that
leads to our personal Enlightenment that at the same time also benefit the others on the path that’s for me compassion I
would agree with that yeah yes it’s nothing to do with killing and no killing so so that’s no it has to do
with suffering too usually that’s how I would frame it but I love that interpretation of so that’s how I see true compassion acknowledge things as
they truly are including the path that others are on that we totally so so in that way what the cat is doing it is
moving in and removing the rat from the environment where it causes harm it causes Distortion it causes sadness it
causes suffering it causes people to do irrational uh things that lead to more
karma for these beings so in that way the the rat is in is causing a lot of harm and the old cat the wise cat with
his wisdom with his understanding that killing is not the right answer selfishness is not right answer me being
in opposition to reality is not the right answer me being strong on my interpretations of who and what I am is
not the right answer but here we have a scenario that must be met with balance
that must be met in the middle point that must be met in the place where no further harm is caused for all involved
and that’s why it just walks in and the r recognizes that wisdom it is pacif if
IED by the notion of there is no battle here there is just let’s create Harmony
here let’s make things into the point where we can all exist and it removes the rat and puts it somewhere else but
it doesn’t cause that harm and then everything is solved and for me that’s that’s the teachings of the Samurai that
they go through the different stages of that this is what you’ve been taught in your Youth and and and where you needed
to show how how well you could yield and wield your sword and your powers and your ego and whatever and event come to
this point what’s the highest good of dominia as I normally call it what what creates the least Distortion what
generates the highest balance and you find the same ideas in most religions as when we come to True wisdom it’s about
being humble it’s about knowing the right place the right time this is how I am yielding my Powers this is how I’m
wielding my powers and use both of them because you yield it because you draw that power for somewhere else and you
wield it because you use that what you have drawn from the cosmic fabric in a
wise full way that creates nonh harm that’s how I interpret compassion you
see so that’s very dissimilar to that no killing kind of things because there are
places where where not that to do deliberately but there are different levels of reality where
things uh might not always fit that pattern let me put it that way because harming others are never okay in the way
that we are normally and it’s not a self EXC but I’ll I’ll excuse but I’ll leave it at that so so for me if if it had
just been the story of the cats I would literally been kind yeah that’s such a good representation of how you change
from one level into another within the samurai path that might led to the ones that follow that path to to slide into
Buddhism and saying I’m done with that but then there’s the whole context
around me from the 1700 writers that for me he was way too mental and way too many words and way too intellectual and
and and not yeah in the understanding what he actually was experiencing there but that’s my personal no that’s right
and that’s a common criticism of where Zen got at a certain point it had become so cryptic and so intellectual it got so
far removed from actual practice so that was a huge criticism leveled oh yeah I see exactly the same
totally it’s a common thing and even even at the you know after the time where the um the PE before the Buddha
the people went into the forest finally to get away from all the the bical things they just wanted to go out and
practice or there we see this kind of pattern and cycle time and time again but that’s that was a beautiful way of
putting it and I I kind of changed my mind now and stand corrected and I’m reminded the martial arts even though I haven’t really been in the martial arts
I totally Advocate that for certain types of Youth that it it seems to fit the same pattern it’s just I don’t know
enough about Samurai obviously because I mean when I think of a sword I think immediately killing at least in martial
arts uh as one part of the stage at least but I don’t know again I might make this but in martial arts I know
there there is a way there are plenty of martial arts where it’s just purely self-defense and not initiating and not
leading to killing that’s a wrongful interpretation it is it I’m not I’m just saying this is this is why I’ve changed
my mind about entirely what I said the only thing I don’t know about is when you say it’s it’s not applicable in
certain situations I can possibly see that but that’s beyond my current scope of understanding so I just have to set
that aside for now and say we’re mostly in in agreement with all this except for that which I not agreeing with or I’m
not disagreeing with I’m just saying I’m just saying that I’m not there to know from personal because when they old cat
addresses some of the other cats I can’t remember which one of the cats is oh no that’s when the not the Shogun or shogan
I don’t know what the name was but the man the house owner I think Shogun is actually means house owner or something
Shogun means a Hired Hand I thought or Hired Gun but I no I don’t know but I can get his name while you’re while
you’re talking anyways it doesn’t matter the house owner uh he addresses the old cat and it’s okay Josh you don’t need to
look it up the the house owner addresses the old cat and then he ask what is the
meaning what’s the purpose of what you said what is it that that that you want to um you need to look at Shen sorry
Shen so so he he’s the the house owner says ask the cat and the cat says I
don’t know because I am I am just living I am killing to live I’m whatever it says I can’t remember he says I’m not a
human so what do I know about human yeah but he also says I kill for a Liv living yeah um the cat how is uh I he said he
wants to know it he said the cat how is that possible I’m only animal and the rat is my food yeah how should I know
about human Affairs all I know is this yeah the meaning in art of combat is not merely a matter of vanquishing one’s
opponent which is what I what I allude to because a cat does not get karma
repail so to speak on killing to to eat no because that’s their nature that’s
their nature that’s part of their cat so in that way since it’s a natural part of the cat realm it does not create
Karma but if a human does the same thing which is unnatural in the human realm it does create Karma so we need to
understand which realm we’re talking that’s what I meant certain levels it does not create Karma other levels it
does create Karma I see you can’t take away a realm where things are in a specific way like we have talked about
some of the the the other Realms where where fire is perceived like water and
water perceived like fire whatever energy work differently in the different Realms and the beings that are there
need to learn to how to work in harmonious ways with the environment they’re part of so that they don’t
generate karma karma does not come out of a specific set of laws that goes that applies to all Realms and that’s part of
the first teaching the Puda we talked about as well and there’s also neg or quote unquote negative Karma Bad Karma
and then there’s actions that create no Karma be it negative or or positive so I I’m just wondering and you know out of
hand well what if a cat just had some kind of wisdom on its own somehow where it said oh I’m just going to not kill
anything and then see what happens then they die and then what what would be the karmic effect of but you don’t know the
laws of the that’s right so that’s why you don’t know the laws of the path of a cat exactly yeah and that’s the Dharma
you don’t know the Dharma of a cat right you don’t know what what it is that that a cat should do to complete its path
yeah exactly and that’s why it says what do I know I’m not a human right y I’m not part of the human realm I’m not part
of the human power unless we could have past life memories of how it operates you know but then what are we doing as a
cat or yeah so so that’s that’s again a Nuance way of understanding Karma and
how these things apply so that just to put that in there so so so that is is
covered as well so I um the last thing I want to say here first and again
this for me and I know this is too simplified but for me sen grew out of
some of these or cast and some of these brotherhoods and for them the path out for them whether it
was or not this is my interpretation was to get to the balance point where they were in a way still being true to their
let me use the word cast or their lineage to to their original purpose and function that they were born into like
the Buddha also did to the best of his abilities um the the monastery you were
part of in in South Korea they had had certain practices in the morning where they were doing 108 bars for me that is
a mirroring of the old physical exercises that a samur would do every day to keep himself fit and I’m not
saying her because I don’t I don’t know of female sumarize I don’t think that was a thing when we talk about the
cultural context of the time so in that way I would say that that that is a
remnant of that some of the practices they did to keep their senses Sharp
to keep them focused to keep them present because they had a different type of nervous system due to their
abilities and what they have trained with their physicality and the way they have yielded the energies of life force
would be mirrored in the smacking of the stick at the floor the some of the
practices they had of not going into too much mental um creations and ideas and
thought forms were boiled down to simplistic uh what we call more more um
tangible stories that made sense in a way that that if you were from a warrior
cost if you were trained in this and if you transferred into a peaceful living in a monastery just think about a
veteran what is needed for that veteran in a situation to keep perhaps once you
are out of that environment of of of wielding this The Sword and what you have done it will hit you like a hammer
you will while you doing you’re Des synthesized once you’re out of it it will hit you and then trauma will appear
how will you address trauma amongst a group of men that are in a monastery where trauma kicks up you might have
some of these techniques to put them into contemplating on a go on as in kind of the birds and the winds and the the
the Flies and whatnot that would calm you down because you would be taken away from the replay of what you had done the
replay of the the the pain and the the what you have what you have caused you
would think about these and that would bring you to peace that will calm your mind down that will calm your breathing
down that would calm you down into being able to go into this state where where
if we are saying it’s trauma based which is complete speculation but if we go with that idea then that practice makes
total sense to me because then you go and you completely ease yourself out yep and even active Warriors and Samurai
that are still in the act of doing that stuff yeah it makes sense especially from a kind of a therapeutic yeah you
know psychological aspect absolutely and I think it can go even deeper than that
but yeah whether how skillful it is depending on one’s past actions and
disposition what they’re hoping to achieve and where they’re at what culture they’re in these are all things to consider I guess yeah this is
brilliant and uh yeah you know of course it aligns too with bod Dharma which is
supposed toly the the first Zen patriarch is also the creator of Kung Fu one of the most highly regarded martial
arts uh that a lot so much other things have sprung out of so yeah yeah so for
me when we talk about how oral teachings get spread out across the group and instead of beating each other on the
head and saying this is the right teaching and this is the wrong teaching I think we should or the right interpretation or the wrong
interpretation it’s for me it’s super important to say where did it rise from and in what context and how was it
utilized that made that specific diversion spring to to uh to life
because just because we had one teacher that said this is this is how it is we don’t really know how it is because he not around we were not around so we
don’t know so everything we have is an interpretation of what was and we’re seeing it happen to the day where
mindfulness is suddenly being blended into psychology sure it’s still useful and I will put pros and cons here too
and I would say even things that are culturally distant and even maybe in the past that don’t necessarily apply to uh
our time period in location in the world and our cultural upbringing things like that there’s still things that are
potentially worthy uh for certain individuals from these foreign distant lineages that can be helpful there’s
certain aspects that are Universal that apply no matter where but there’s also a thing where they they they are out of
place you know um so but there’s there’s the notion that they should be preserved
the way they are in their certain context and not be too mixed into society in order to preserve that
lineage so it lasts a longer time and so where that other things can draw from it
but without it getting corrupted too so you have you have both of these Notions where it can become watered down and
overly influenced by other cultures and then become more globalist in nature and then get all grayed out watered out but
then you have the the notion of well if you have it too strict of a preservation of the lineage then nobody will be able
to really access it other than a small amount of people there um so you got
both these kind of opposing views and I can see pros and cons from kind of each of these these ways of doing things I
don’t really have a good answer of what to do what not to do about them yeah no I just wanted my concl concluding remark
as it so fancy said it is said in in the teachings of
the Buddha that most of what he had was actually ancient wisdom that that was practiced before his lifetime he
rediscovered a path he rediscovered a path and the path and I like that word because the Torah is also explained as a
path da is explained as a path the right way the Christianity is also a way is
also so it’s all about that path that we get on uh as when we begin to go to the
path whether it’s of Liberation from this reality if it’s on do of karma or however it’s interpreted realizing the
true nature of reality so we have this understanding that hidden behind this reality there is some kind of I know the
esoterics blavatsky and and others within theosophy and Neo theosophy and
other new ages and whatnot but we’re not going there but there is this because
the Buddha is long before blavatsky and anyone else but there is this understanding that he was a teacher that
were to remind us of the path that was put into this life to remind us of the
ancient teachings that we all have access to that leads to the completion of our rebirth inside this reality and
however that is interpreted in whatever way within whatever culture within whatever type of people as long as the
practice are again as I as I have said other places as long as you have meditation and contemplation and
mindfulness as the key elements whatever way you do it and you then expand it
into the respect and understanding of the interconnectedness and the unified field
that we all come from the fabric of reality we all grow from whatever level we are and that that fabric is divided
into many different sort layers of existences and understand that we are not the only beings in this realm and
with that we should have respect for their ways and their path and how they examplify the energies of what we are
all made out of and begin to include that in our practice then we begin to have as I see the true understanding of
compassion for me compassion is inclusivity it’s the ability to see things as they truly are to understand
where people are and to to be humble and to avoid creating Distortion and karma
in me and in others and that is reliant on the different types of energies we’re
working with the different stages of the path and the different way of how we uh perceive reality on whatever level that
we are in and that means a lot of different interpretation a lot of different rules hence the necessity of
being able to meditate and focus to be able to investigate and contemplation to
get the of where we are right now what’s the right way the right approach and if
our ego comes in the way in this then we are not focused in meditation because we
focused on our ego instead of being absorbed with what we are focusing our attention on so to speak selflessly
without any selfish eot testical purposes and in contemplation we go in
and investigate things and put our ego aside so that we can see things as they truly are as they represent themselves
from the level of nature of reality we’re investigating not what we want it to be well but it it actually is seeing
things as they truly are and by that get the true wisdom and then we go into mindfulness where we integrate this in
our daily life of the cushion everyday life living with that understanding of
being present in the now being present in what’s going on and putting ourselves aside on what we want to achieve and
what is with wise and and and fruitful in that moment with that energy with
that situation and with that being that we have in front of us either as part of the physical Realms or as part of the
non-physical Realms and that’s for me the way that we are on the path Dharma
in our everyday life living out what we have to undo unfinished business to live
to our full potentials and at the same time avoiding creating more negative Karma but producing quote unquote
positive Karma that lead us further down the path absolutely until that can even be let go of and so there’s no more
karma creation right and then that notion of stress is completely comes to
cease yeah exactly yep so with that I would say that these people who are Hawking the Buddhist teaching and saying
these are the teachings of the Buddha and everybody else is wrong I would say that of course I can’t say that they are
wrong because then I’m on the same same level of of polarization but I will say
as as far as I know all of these teachings stems from from Far earlier
than of human history and they are coming from very very different grounds that we might think but we have had
teachers throughout time that has rediscovered them have taught them and they have become part of the the paneum
of quote unquote uh teachers that are now being um through myths and Hero
Stories elevated into position where they don’t belong it’s interesting you say that because the the Buddha actually
leveled that criticism at the the brahans of his time too he say how many among you can say about their own
teachings that this is the absolute truth nothing else is true this is the only truth from knowing that from
personal experience and none of none of them could step forward and say that so so I think that’s quite telling and yeah
I don’t I mean I think it’s huous for anybody to call themselves Buddha uh Buddhist and be able to make that same
claim with especially if they can’t see and know what they’re actually claiming as the absolute all encompassing truth
that they see and know it for themselves and I I don’t know if I’ve ever encountered anybody like that so uh yeah
that’s a huge claim and that’s not one to take lightly so yeah but but like I said if one does see and know that for
themselves well then that’s different but I’m I’m a far I’m Far Cry from that to to being do that so thanks so much
for the these insightful comments it’s a beautiful understanding and uh look at
this this little zent text here and uh yeah how it kind of summed all that up
and expanded upon it and gave your unique U views on it so appreciate it
thank you and with that thanks for listening in
Integrating Presence 