After recording an interview with Tom Walters of the Zen Commuter podcast in February 2024 the episode #2077 is finally out! Thanks so much to Tom and all the great work he does around the many worlds of meditation and beyond.
https://www.zencommuter.com/blog/2077
Here’s his show notes for it:
Today I share with you my interview with Josh Dippold. He is one of the hosts of the Integrating Presence Podcast along with Wendy Nash. Together they help us learn the benefits of a meditation practice. Which is something that Josh does on his own as well as an instructor on Insight Timer
(Wendy actually only co-hosts the roughly monthly “Meditation Q & A” (the rest is mostly me not counting past co-hosts of “Ask Us Anything” which morphed into the “Meditation Q & A.”
Also, if anything, at the time of this post, I’m only doing “instructing” online to those I haven’t met (yet) in real life so I guess that’s a type of “instructor.” Due to current life circumstances it is not easily possible to do so in real life being more of a nomad for the time being)
Tom also guested on the Integrating Presence podcast in April:
Here’s some cobbled together and edited AI summarizations our conversation on the Zen Commuter podcast:
Josh Dippold appeared as a guest on the Zen Commuter Podcast, where he discussed his meditation journey, which began in 2012 during a low point in his life. Through a committed daily practice, he experienced profound personal transformation, including heart openings, mystical experiences, and deep psychological healing.
During the conversation, Josh shared insights about the challenges of maintaining a consistent meditation practice, the societal push toward busyness which often conflicts with the stillness that meditation cultivates, and the value of radical acceptance. He also explored the masculine approach to care and examining comfort zones to bring inner peace to life’s adversities.
Josh emphasized the importance of seeing reality as it truly is, practicing compassion, and staying connected with one’s core values. He also discussed his ongoing work with Integrating Presence and the development of his podcast, Inner Skilled.
Also delved into was how meditation shifts perception over time helping people connect to a broader sense of interconnectivity and a deeper understanding of reality beyond societal illusions.
Other guest appearances:
(Mostly) Unedited Transcript via https://restream.io/tools/transcribe-audio-to-text:
Life is so much fuller when you are calmer, wiser, and happier. If sounds good to you, sit back and enjoy another relaxing episode of Zen Commuter. Good morning, travelers, and welcome to your morning zen commute. I am your host, Tom Walters, and this is Zencommuter, your meditation podcast aimed at moving you forward peacefully, helping you live a calmer, more satisfying life. Today, I am very excited to bring to you my interview with Josh Dippold.
He, like myself, is a meditation instructor who is featured on Insight Timer. And while he does have a longer biography on Insight Timer, the last line is what is most telling about him. He values truth, wisdom, kindness, compassion, courage, empowerment, realizing awakening, and being free. That is one powerful list of 8 that I can totally get behind. You’ll hear about those things and many more in this interview.
So sit back and enjoy my interview with Josh Dippold. I begin our interview much like I do many, asking about Josh’s meditation journey, what led him to meditating, how long he’s been doing it, and where he learned. Well, I’m kinda more typical in that regard that I came through what’s called the dukkha door, and this is the term in in Buddhist terminology. Stress is probably the easiest way to do it. Suffering is a really strong term in the west, but we’ve all experienced really intense periods of really badness.
And, you know, just even on the subtler levels, unsatisfactoriness or, you know, this not okayness. And so that’s what drove me to it. And that’s more typical what I hear of meditators too. This was in, 2012. I had actually hit rock bottom in, my life at that point.
I won’t go into too many details, but, I had gotten kind of superficial instructions, from a program. But then, things were at such a low, I just kind of closed my eyes, and I I I kinda thought of that program if I I can think of if I remember. And after it’s about sitting there for an hour, there’s some kind of memories that were built up that purged. And then I just felt this huge relief afterwards, and I’m like, wow. I feel so much better.
What do I have to lose? I’m just gonna commit to this every day for this foreseeable future. That’s the outline part. I haven’t met too many people like that. And so I was totally committed almost from day 1.
I mean, it really started to turn my life around from that very moment. I know this is kind of uncommon and unheard of. And so then within a few days, I was starting to have what some people might call more mystical experiences. But it wasn’t long after that then that I was having, like, my own therapy sessions. Right?
All this repressed material, what they call psychological splitting sometimes when things get too intense. It just whatever I’m not able to deal with at the time splits off, and I keep going ahead. Well, that material caught up with me. I was, you know, seeing my own past actions and how I was treating others in not the best way and things I had totally forgotten about surface to come up to be seen, to be cleared and healed. I know it’s a little heavy right up front here.
No. It’s That’s okay. Well, we’re not scared. Yeah. But it really was so, healing for me.
And then, you know, after, I mean, to the point where it was almost, you know, weeping on a daily basis. I mean, that’s how intense it was, but it was acceptable because I was on my own, and there’s nobody around. So it was as appropriate socially to do this. And I didn’t really get into any formal meditation instructions until maybe a couple years later. I was getting so into this, and I didn’t really know what I was doing.
Right? And then I was like, well, who knows about this meditation stuff? Don’t these Buddhists, don’t they meditate? So I looked up online almost naively, and I’m, like, blown away. I mean, it’s just this huge, rich, long culture of meditation.
And it was I just, kind of just got hooked from there, listened to dharma talks and not really knowing what they’re talking about at first. And then, oh, yeah. Okay. I can see what they’re talking about in my practice. And it just increasing over time, you know, gradually increasing kind of the wisdom.
And then the heart openings were coming. And, I mean, there were times when, my heart I felt like maybe I was something was wrong with my heart. Right? There was a huge ache and then in the back as well. But through these practices, maybe we’ll get into, later, and stuff, the heart really started to open up, and it was just a beautiful thing having this open and flower and things coming up to be seen and healed, cleared again.
Yeah. Well, one of the things that’s most, well, there are tons of takeaways from that, and thank you for sharing that. But you make it seem like, a consistent practice wasn’t a challenge for you. Is that an accurate statement? It is.
And like I say, that’s why I have hard time relating to a lot of people, and I have to learn from other teachers like you where it is I I find that common from people I hear about too. You know, they they have a hard time establishing a daily practice. They know they should. You’re like, you’re talking about the meditation police coming after them or something, you know, and I’ve I’ve heard lots of different, tips and techniques. If you guys haven’t heard some of your podcasts on on how to do this, one of the other ones is like, you know, habit.
You know, it’s like the the classic metaphor is, you know, you could skip brushing your teeth every day, but you wouldn’t really want to. Right? So once the habit gets established, it’s just like you feel off or you feel wrong or or something’s not like missing or yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
So it’s just like imagine walking around all day with your teeth just net like a sweater on your teeth all day. Yeah. So you would just it’s just it’s just kind of energetic hygiene too in a way. You know? Right.
Right. And to that point, one of the things I was talking about, I was a guest on somebody else’s show right before we came on. One of the things we are talking about is how our society, and I was talking about this with, with the host, that our society tells us to not sit still. Our society says move at all costs. Don’t be a blight on society.
You have to produce. You have to be moving. You have to be doing something. And I was telling, him that, like, so imagine if you are a person who’s starting a meditation practice, and up till this point, whether you’d be 20 years old, 30, 40, 50, every minute you woke up, somebody was suddenly whispering in your keep moving. Keep moving.
Keep going. Keep going. Like so that, it gets ingrained in you. So when I think about a a consistent practice, every time you sit on your cushion or in your chair, you’re going against society, and for depending on who you are. That can be really tough.
I mean, if you’re deeply ingrained in society, you’re like, I can’t sit. So if you’re a meditator and you’re like, okay. Cool. I know meditation’s good for me. And the first hiccup you get that, like, oh, I’m running late.
I’m like, yeah. I’m not gonna be able to meditate today. It’s like, ah. You’re basically just saying society’s just saying, yeah. Yeah.
You’re like, keep moving. Keep moving. So, kudos to you for turning a deaf ear to society. Well, I appreciate it. You know, this is the classic thing, you know.
Well, just like you say, the the whole momentum of one’s life, if they’re trained that way, that habit pattern is built up a lot of strength and energy throughout time. So it’s gonna take time and effort to start to unravel that in practice. And we’ve got the opposite too, though. People that are in this what’s called the hindrance, that’s called, restlessness and anxiety or restlessness and remorse, right, or too much, maybe too much energy and not applied the right way. And, the other opposite end is sloth and torpor.
And I know I are are we just those are big, old, antiquated words. Right? We could just call them like, lethargy and Laziness. Yeah. Laziness too.
Some people had that issue. Oh, Benite, great. I’ll just lay on the couch even more now. You know? Alright.
You know? So and or or, you know, you get really deep into practice, and this is a hindrance I struggled with for quite a while, just start doing what they call the Zen nod. Right? Just just nodding off. Right?
Some people, their body needs more sleep. So what I tell some people, especially if they go on retreat, sometimes they’re sleeping, like, for the 1st day because they’re so overdeprived of sleep. That’s actually more important for the body, and the body realizes that, that they actually need to sleep. So sometimes it is actually just need to sleep, but then there’s other ways of dealing with that hindrance just like there is restlessness and anxiety, and types of things like this. And, you know, in the sitting practice too, which create I I’m big on a formal sitting practice.
I think it’s one of the most important things for my meditation practice. However, what’s often neglected, again, is these other postures. You can do a formal standing and a formal walking and a formal lying down, which is the most challenging for me because we’re so conditioned once we lie down, go to sleep. Right? And then and then also just through our daily lives, being mindful of when we reach out with our arm or our hand, you know, where the body is in space, transitioning from posture.
So and then integrating all this into our lives, you know, that’s a whole another art of meditation as well. You bring up a good point too. And many times, I’m asked by students and by people, once they know that I’m a meditation instructor, say, is it okay to meditate at night? I’m like, well, a, there is no right or wrong, but if you truly wanna meditate, you might wanna find a time where, you are not more prone to sleep. So that’s what your point is like.
So many times people told me, they’re like, well, I usually meditate, and then I fall asleep. I’m like, okay. So you’re you’re kinda there. I’m like and I I always tell them, like, at least you got a great night’s sleep. They’re like, yeah.
I usually get the most sound sleep after I fall asleep from meditating. I’m like, yeah. That’s cool. But to your point, if, if you wanna have a consistent practice that is meditating all the time, then you might wanna go to a chair first thing in the morning or, your cushion and not, have be, lulled back to sleep while we sleep by your practice. You know, that’s identifying these these these patterns and and our behavior are really important too because it doesn’t apply to everybody.
Some people like me can get up right in the morning and just go straight to the cushion and be great. I love doing that. Some people can’t. They just go try to go back to sleep, you know. And then I typically have the thing that you say where I get more, you know, drowsy in in the evening.
So so, yeah, it does make sense to do it when you’re not falling asleep. Or if, you know, we can use an extra session if we’re having trouble sleeping too, if that works for you, and that’s a big, thing. You know, I I found over time, I don’t need as much sleep anyway anymore because, there’s so much deep, peaceful rest. Yeah. And, you know, and and conscious of it too during meditation.
So this is a common thing among seasoned practitioners as they don’t sleep as much as they used to. And at the same time, they feel as, even more rested and, you know, yet at ease. Because it’s a deeper restorative sleep, for sure. Yes. Mhmm.
Now one of the other things I talked about, or would like to talk about is the perception or not the perception, but how your meditation changes. And I mean, day to day as opposed to over time. Well, let’s let’s start long term. So you’ve been meditating for a while. How has your meditation practice changed from the first time you meditated to today?
Yeah. You know, all these benefits that we hear about meditation, to me, they’re like a side effect. It’s great. You hear these drugs and all these, effects they have. I would call them effects.
I mean, some of these drugs, you know, and they’re not even side effects. They’re effects. I mean, they have noticeable changes in certain ways on certain people. No no matter what is not all the time right but the the nice thing about meditation is these all these benefits that people claim in in the everyday work away work workaway world. Yeah.
Work a day world too. Yeah. You’re right in both cases. Yes. Exactly.
There there are side effects. You know? This is this is just tends to happen almost naturally as we practice. We don’t even almost have to set these goals even. You know, a lot of times these things just kind of unfold naturally.
The benefits like better sleep, better concentration, and focus without a lot of effort, you know, ease and calm, a clear mind, able to relate to other people’s better, you know, opening opening to more empathy and compassion on and on. You know, the the list is long and the the great yeah. That’s the side effect. So for me, I know there’s some tendency around this, but, you know, I I do look at the the Buddha as an example, obviously. I mean, of course, I don’t compare myself to the Buddha.
He did say that it it is possible in this very life to, you know, know suffering and know the end of suffering. And so, I mean, I think that is important to, to know the ultimate goal and to not blow it off as, oh, that’s not possible or anything like that, because we are able to see where there is, more and more stress within ourselves and in the world, and then know kind of the cause of that and know that it’s possible that to have an ending of that and how to do it. And so not to give like a a Buddhist preaching thing here, but it it it’s just, you know, that’s I think that’s at the end of the day, that should at least be a consideration in people meditating, you know, and we could just say, this the cessation of so the ending of stress, you know, it is possible, in this life. I know in my own experience, it has gotten way less stress over time, you know. Okay.
And with a lot of challenges starting off, there’s less challenges in those same regards, you know. So on the day to day basis, it depends how much we wanna dial into detail, you know, because everything is seemingly in flux, it’s just kind of at different rates of change right? A lot of inspiration well I guess so I’m going to ask you to be to to more specific if we want to look day to day, moment to moment, hour to hour, minute by minute What kind of scale do we want? And point me in a more Yeah. That’s a that’s a and thank you for clarifying that because that, in in retrospect, I’m like, yeah, that was a pretty broad question because if I think about my practice, there are the day to day practical things that you talked about.
Like, yeah, I’m more attentive, more focused, more creative. I’m like, yeah, those are cool things. And but to the same point too, there I experienced things on my cushion that I never experienced when I was 18 or 20. I’m like, like, obviously, connection to source and our divinity. So, so I will say, let’s go for the heavy hitters.
How has your meditation practice changed either for not for better or for worse, but how has it changed in regards to connecting to source? Let’s take the pragmatic evidence. Have have you mentioned earlier when we start talking about your practice that, like, right from the get go, you’re like, I am seeing the world in a brand new way from, like, the the first couple weeks or less on your chair. So how has your spiritual life changed, from when you started meditating to now? Well, so there’s 2 huge words that need to be defined here, spiritual and source.
And Yeah. Those are those are big ones. Oh, they’re heavy hitters. They are. And I I’m don’t shy away from heavy heavy hitters.
But Good. Other than for for source, I’m going to just redefine that as, because to me, that’s a little bit, not metaphysical so much, but in a way it is. Let’s look at I I wanna I wanna look at seeing reality for what it really is. Love it. Absolutely love it.
That that’s what that’s what that’s kind of more of the goal than connecting with source. But as far as that that concept goes, I will say, to me, that’s interconnectivity. That word resonates more with me too. So knowing that we don’t exist in a vacuum and that what we do and say and think matters. It has effects.
We do something skillfully. It’s more likely to have a skillful effect. If we do something unskillfully, it’s more likely to have an unskillful effect. Maybe not right away, but little by little, you know, these things can add up. And so I’ve just noticed the interconnectivity.
So when we talk about, empathy, this is a direct experience in the body of connecting with, each other. And even I mean, it sounds pretty wild and mystical, but even inanimate objects, like, you get around this huge majestic tree or a forest. Right? And I just feel different in that space than I do if I go into a city with sharp corners and steel and class and hustle and bustle and people looking to get ahead. So it’s a felt knowing in the body how it is.
And these are pretty obvious examples that most people can relate to. Right? Think about a place you go to, like your grandmother’s house and your or your place where you’re loved and cared for, some place you feel really welcome and at ease and you belong there versus somewhere that you’ve never been before. It’s chaotic or maybe in even in a new culture or something like that. So these are things that we just notice, and we can tune into not just our thoughts about it, but how it feels in our body.
So in that sense, connecting with, source. So that would I would say interconnectivity that way. Right. Right. Mhmm.
And that would be mhmm. No. Go ahead. We’ll we’ll come back to reality. Go ahead.
So so we keep your thread here. Yeah. So to that point and thank you. Because one of the things I talk about in regards to meditation is and it’s I wouldn’t say it’s fleeting, but the intensity varies. So there are times I’ll be on my cushion and I’ll feel connection to all life through not just on this planet, but all life everywhere.
And then other times I get off the chair, I’m like, oh, that was nice. That’s that’s that’s peaceful. So have you it sounds like you’ve experienced that same thing. The nice thing yes. Absolutely.
And and the nice thing about the meditation, for me is just a regular, standard what they call sama to practice that I’ve heard you talk about too, just just connecting with one object over and over again, like the breath. It it gradually over time, it it’s, it hones, awareness to be able to tune into things on subtler and subtler levels. Like, once we weren’t attuned to the subtle layers or looking deeply into things, we were more on a gross level. Right? But now we can we can tune in to finer and finer grains of details and things that we didn’t notice before.
So that helps a lot. Also, a receptivity, you know, especially for the masculine. There’s this kind of active energy in doing, but when we sit on a cushion in a formal practice, there’s a there’s way more that our re receptivity muscle gets built up. Right? Mhmm.
Because, we’re we’re opening and allowing to something, and we come to a state of more of a surrender, and you’re not really doing anything or being active, at least on the external. Right? There’s a lot of stuff that can go on inside. Yeah. But Absolutely.
But that that receptivity opens us up to, possibility for more interconnectivity, to see connections, to feel connections, to see how I can’t, live in this world without, you know, people growing food, stocking the supermarket shelves, transporting the items, you know. Me going and buying it so that all the people in the chain can, you know, live and support each other, this interdependence too that we have. And so but it that’s the kind of the standard basic thing that we we kind of see and it it can get way more mystical from there too. Now the nature of reality that’s people are probably some people might be like, oh, what are you talking about? I was just gonna say, I love talking like this, but I’m sure both people are like, okay.
Those 2 are out there. You know, because there is so much solipsism in our world. From what I understand of that term, it’s just like, oh, there’s no truth. You know, nothing matters, it’s all relative, or when people talk about their truth, you know, I look at that as their perception and, you know, I don’t wanna get, you know so, perception also starts to expand when we meditate too. The things that we couldn’t see before, now we can see it all kinds of ways.
We thought maybe we only had, you know, vote one way, vote another. Well, wait. There’s other options. There’s 3rd parties, or I don’t have to vote, or I could only vote for this section and not that section. All these new, ways of seeing become more prevalent.
A lot of things get cleared that stand in the way. Once these hindrances, get, clear up, we see all these other opportunities that we were missing before, so many other choices, and we can kinda co create these these choices as well as this opens up. But now there is, certain meditation systems that go really in-depth. I’m thinking of the Venerable Paksayadaw. He’s a Burmese meditation master, considered by some to be one of the more predominant or preeminent meditation masters and the living meditation masters right now, and based on this old ancient test text called the Vasudimaga.
So I don’t know if you know about jhana practice, but in in that tradition, right, they they even get into jhana practice before you get into the vipassana practice. So we’re we’re going deep here too. So there’s a very systematic method step by step, and I just wanted to maybe I’m going a little bit on a tangent here, but it also, depending on one’s, I guess, character disposition, I’ve met some imitators that are really into this technicality. They want a really defined step by step guide, or this is what you look for, all these maps, the specific process. And I don’t usually work like that.
I don’t work like that. I I don’t. But some people do. Some people have this highly technical mind, and they love this specific guide. And I’m fascinated by it.
I I I learn, and it’s so in-depth and so mind blowing amazing to me, but I don’t work like that too. You know, your podcast is called the Zen commute. I was I studied under a Chan master for a while, and I just even though he was based in Theravada, but the the I love Zen. It’s it’s simplistic in a way it’s it’s simple in a way, but so profound and often overlooked. It’s almost too simple people don’t notice it.
Another thing is it’s about the whole daily life too. You know, they say in Zen, you have 2 jobs. Right? You meditate and you sweep the temple and the the temple includes the entire world. Right?
Right. But the other thing is I love the craziness of it sometimes. Like, you know, just like these crazy Zen masters, if people don’t know what they’re doing, they would think, what is wrong with this guy? But it’s like, once you get into it, then you can kinda see, wow, this is some really profound wisdom trying to wake us up, you know, trying to get us out of our old stuck habit patterns for our own good. And there’s different schools that have different approaches based on people’s, character and dispositions.
And where they are on their path too, and you bring up a good point. 2 things I wanna take away from that. And one is the the the last point you made is just I actually got this in a meditation the other day, and it was, it was eye opening to say the least. But the the biggest message well, not the biggest, but one of the messages in the meditation was wake up as many people as you can. As many people who are as close to waking up as possible.
And, I remember the words exactly. Not a religion, not a cult, just love. Wake up as many people as you can. I’m like, cool. I can do that.
This is this is so great because I’ve got a, series, now launched on my website called, catalyst for awakening and change. Nice. And this is tackling this very, topic, and I’ve talked about, awakening or so called awakening. That’s another term to that’s fascinating to me. And so what I what I if I could ask you, because I’ve found this notion of, sometimes I impose on people trying to wake them up.
But I we can both agree the safe thing is if some people come to us interested in awakening, then, yes, we can do it for sure. But there are things I think we can do to test the waters amongst those. One of the ways I like to do is just ask a question. Oh, hey. Did you know about this, or what do you think of this?
And then we can kinda gauge their openness and and level of what approach might work best for them to get into more of what needs to be done to realize awakening. Right. And it it is just as simple as that in some regards, the notion of a dream. Right? We were so involved in this dream, and it seems so real, and it seems so important.
And then we wake up and then wait a second. I didn’t even realize that was a dream. What happened to that? You know? So I love the metaphor of awakening and dream, like, we’re in this dream world.
And I think gradually too, they talk about gradual awakening and sudden awakening and and Zen and and practice too. And it just seems over time, wow, what I once thought was, oh, this is how it is, is no. That’s somebody’s idea about how they wanted it to be, and they wanted other people to come on board with it for various reasons. But how much can we strip away, of all this, here’s a big word, extemporaneous, all this stuff that’s not really needed in our lives for our own well-being and seeing things for how they actually are. How much of that a lot of practice too is just discarding what’s not necessary?
What’s what don’t we need? And you bring up a good point too is one of the things I always say on Zencommuter and just in my teaching and, like, Mike, I don’t know your path. I I will never know anybody else’s path but, my own. And but one of the things I talk about on Zencommuter is, like, I teach meditation for that very reason. I don’t have any answers for you.
Like, I would never want people to think of me as a guru, not that I think anybody does. Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. I don’t really care. But to that point, I’m like, I have no answers for you.
But one thing I do know about is helping you find that answer for yourself, turning inwardly. So, obviously, your point, if people come to me, it’s like, how can I make my life deeper? I’m like, well, there are 2 things. A, we have to define what deep is, then we gotta find out what’s to your point, what resonates for you? And, obviously, we’re talking about meditation, but, like so the people that come to me, I would tell them, like, I have no answers, but I’ll help you find the answers for yourself.
So to facilitate that awakening. And then there are some you know, one of the things too is, my mom had a great quote, and my my listeners will know what this quote well, one of many, but she said, the greatest gift that you can give somebody is the example of your life working. So, so when I’m out in the world, I’m like, I’m not preaching. I’m not I’m like, just this is my life. If if you are drawn if some aspect of my life draws you to me, yeah, we can talk.
Like like, it’s maybe like, god, you you’re happy all the time. Like, first off, no. I’m not. Happy is my default. Calm is my default.
Yeah. But it doesn’t happen all the time, because my life would be incredibly boring if that was the case. But yeah. So people, like and I also know, and maybe you feel the same way, like, wherever I end up is where I’m supposed to end up, whether that be a job, whether that be at a supermarket. My soul navigates my life.
And because I have my meditation practice, I am guided, to where I’m supposed to be. And talking to our overarching point about reality, so many things, that I’ve learned in my meditations is that what I perceive reality to be is not reality at all. It’s much like what you said. It’s like somebody’s idea of reality. And there’s so many times in my meditation where I’m like, and my listeners are gonna hear me say this again, but I’m like, it’s all an illusion, but it’s an illusion that I created.
And so there are many times that in my meditation, I’m like it’s like, yeah. I’m looking all around. I’m like, this doesn’t exist, but I created it. And right now, this is where I’m supposed to be. I’m supposed to have this, and I’m supposed to be in the real world.
And I’m like but one of the things I love about my meditation practice, I’d love to hear your perspective as well. It’s like, I exist in this world. Who said it the other day? And it’s definitely a quote from a a poeter. I, I am in this world, but not of this world.
Maybe I get those too, but but it’s like I’m walking around. I’m like, yeah. This is nice. I like this place, but it’s not real. But for right now, it’s where I’m supposed to be.
Do you have instances of that in your meditations as well? Oh, these are really good points here. The the not being in the world, but not of the world is really classic, saying, and I really like that as well. Now Right. This notion of having answers, so I go back to that.
And, the other thing is, being where I’ll come back to answers, but I wanted to pick up the the notion of wherever we are, whether we’re supposed to be there or not, you know, depending on where you differ on that, there you are. It’s like this, wherever you go, there you are, that classic saying. Right? So whether you wanna throw yourself a pity party or you you think this is the great I’m scrubbing toilets. This is the greatest thing ever.
I’m probably gonna say Yeah. You’re right. Right. The thing is, what are you gonna do about it now? Here I here I am.
What’s the best way to view this and perceive it and then act? Right. Those are the things what, you know, kind of control is a type of illusion, but we the things we do have a lot of seeming agency, and we can see this in our meditation practice is, you know, what are we paying attention to? We can choose to pay attention to the breath. Right?
Now we can’t a lot of people can’t stay there permanently locked on until a lot of practice, but then also how are we with whatever you know, we choose to pay attention to something, but how do we pay attention to it? That’s another seeming choice we have because we can’t control what happens to us. Right? Sometimes it seems like we can have more control over other, but eventually in the long term, there’s no way we can arrange all these external conditions in our lives just perfectly and then expect they’re gonna stay exactly the way we want them all the time. And that’s not that’s a set not a setup for success in the long term because eventually something’s gonna come along and top all that.
So how are you? You know, it’s classic spiritual question. How are we when things don’t go our way? You know, that’s a big one. Yeah.
That’s a big one. So going back to the, the the thing about answers, I mean, I think it’s okay to to answer things, but just as long as I make it clear and and I still have a way to go with this is that it’s just my answer. It it’s not the, you know, ultimate truth, obviously. Right. And it’s it’s, and I think it’s okay to draw conclusions, but the more we cling to, some kind of conclusion that we draw, I think the worse off it’s gonna be because if something comes along and flies in the face of that, and then we wanted to cling on to that, it’s gonna be it’s gonna be devastating.
It’s gonna be hard to let that go. So I look at things as information. Right? Because there’s not a huge emotional investment into that. You know, like, belief sometimes, they have a lot of emotional investment.
So when something comes along that flies in the face of a belief I have, then it’s gonna be hard for me to let it go because I put so much time and energy into belief. But if if reality is saying otherwise, it’s gonna be hard to let go of that. It’s gonna stink when I when when I finally am dealt with that. So I don’t think a lot of people are also set up to where I have to believe or disbelieve something, but I don’t think that’s the case. What if we just considered it as information?
You know? And, you know, and, yeah, we have to draw conclusions in life sometimes, I think, to make choices or to see things or to make sense of the world, but just know that they don’t have to be ultimate and permanent, and we have to have them forever. And it’s okay to give answers to ourselves and others, but just know that that it’s not the the ultimate reality of the way things are. I mean, I’m I’m exaggerating here to make a point. Right?
Right. Exactly. But, I mean, you bring up a a a ton of salient points, and one of them is, not to have an ego connection to a belief. I mean, obviously, I’m you know, as old as I am, I’m like, I’ve got beliefs and values that work for me. Yep.
But depending on where I am in the day, I’m either linked more to my human self or my higher self where, my human self is like, no. I’m this, this, this, and I believe this, this, this, and this. Whereas my higher self would be like, yeah. Okay. Cool.
You can believe that, but you know that’s not the only answer. Right? You know that that belief pattern was ingrained in your human, psyche and being. So it’s just as illusory as anything else. So, you know, the other day, I was driving back from the supermarket and there was a political sign on somebody’s lawn for a candidate that I don’t really believe in.
So and I’m my human reaction was like, how could anybody believe that that person is blah blah blah blah blah? And then my higher self just said, dude, that’s just your belief. Let it vape. Your belief and what you believe in does not discredit what they believe. They can all be they can all coexist, and they all can coexist because they’re all made up, even yours.
So just let it go. I’m like, oh, another another another thumbs up for meditation from taking my ego out of the equation. Beautiful the way he put, you know, we can all, I think at the core of that is dignity and respect. Right? Yeah.
We have such a lack of respect these days, and I I’m still working on it, especially guys too. You know, honor and respect is huge amongst guys. And it’s so needed because when we we can we can agree to disagree. We can all coexist, like you say, with different opinions. We don’t have to convince somebody of one thing or another, you know.
Right. And I think even the way I look at all this is I I I not circumvent but in order to not have as much, importance on belief or disbelief or agreement or disagreement, what are my core values? That’s the system I use too. So out of all the things we value in life and what is really important to us, can we identify, like, I don’t know, 2 to 5 core values? And so doing this in deep contemplation.
And then once those are identified, then I can be in alignment with those core values. Right? And so then I can say, okay, well, this this doesn’t align with my core value of this, you know. So like for for instance, mine or like, truth on, like one wing of a bird, you know, seeking reality, wanting to know what’s real, you know, and and the the yeah, the truth of things and the truth of the way things are. On the other hand, wisdom or truth and wisdom.
Right? And then on the other hand, the heart qualities. So we have compassion, loving kindness, being happy for other people’s happiness, you know. And these are no limits in equanimity too. This the calm that can result in mentation.
And then, then I have, like a bird in the sky, Courageous. Right? It just natural courageousness. It doesn’t think I’m gonna fall out of the air any minute and plummet to my death. No.
It just flies because it’s a bird. It doesn’t even think that it’s courageous. It it just it it really does. And Right. Fear fear is another huge topic to work with on the cushion for most people.
Yeah. Massive. So so then when I when I when I really identify those core values and I look at things on the external, the internal and saying, okay. Well, I mean, to use a divinity term here, you can say, well, I see and honor your divinity or your Buddha nature, but that’s just not for me right now. You know?
You can you know, I I honor that. I see that, but that’s not where I’m at, and that’s not what I align with. That’s not what I value. You know? So I don’t need to feed more time and energy into that and amplify that when I can just bring it back and and orient towards things that do align with the core value.
And then this is kinda like a compass for, daily life too and what’s important, and what we can spend our time and energy on as well. And that’s why that’s where meditation obviously totally shines. And, my listeners obviously know that I use this metaphor all the time. Like, when I get on my, chair and my cushion, it’s like I put a, like, a a bubble over me. And, like, you know, I talked the other you know, at the beginning of our talk about how when we wake up, society and all these thoughts are just hitting us every day.
And we don’t know what’s real, what’s imagined. We just react. But with my meditation practice, I I kinda in my mind, I find myself, like, in a, like, a force field, like a superhero. I got a force field around me, and all these thoughts are, like, bouncing off the force field. I’m like, okay.
I don’t even hear you anymore. All I hear is me and, me. How I just I’m turning inwardly, and I’m finding out what resonates with me, what, what is important to me. And to your overarching point, I’m like, for me and human me, hire me, these are the things that resonate. And I know that they don’t have to resonate with everybody, but for those core values you’re talking about, like, this is how I live my life.
This is what brings me joy, gives me guidance, gives me peace, and, like and that’s all I have to worry about. I don’t have to worry about changing anybody else. I don’t have to have somebody else see the way I see. My my life is my life, and and and it’s not self centered at all. If anything, when I one of the things I talk about with meditations, you know, one of the misbelief people have is, like, it’s kinda selfish to just sit on a cushion by yourself and just, not produce and not be doing anything.
I’m like, trust me. Like, I’m a pretty nice guy, but I’m a better guy because of my meditation practice, because I know what resonates with me, what when I know because of my practice, I know of connection. I’m like, trust me. Am I being on the cushion? It’s it’s the least thing from selfish.
It’s a positive for selfish ever. Yeah. It’s it’s a really good point because, you know, once we’re have our own house in order and we’re okay to be okay within ourselves because we’re interconnected, that benefit of just connecting with ourselves and being okay in ourselves and developing these skillful qualities, then everybody we come into contact with benefits. Right. And like you’re saying, just the the more obvious thing of what I’m in a horrible mood, you know, or or really crappy, then who wants to be around me and what I’m like that, you know?
You know? And then like you’re saying your your mother’s point to to being this role model, you know, this this this behavior because my behavior was atrocious, you know, 20 years ago. Right. You know, it’s it was it was not pretty and it was not helpful and but, you know, I was blind to that and I couldn’t even see that until I sat down and like, wow, how could I have been so blind to all this stuff and behavior? And that but that that that that that hurt in that, kind of like, oh, how could I be so gullible?
You know, that could easily go into negativity, but it’s just like, oh, wow. You know, we we we all experience tough times in life. And now it just it feels horrible. So, like, what can we do? And this is another point I wanna bring in here for the masculine, especially is the focus on the heart, you know, Because, you know, our expressions of care differ from the feminine, you know.
So, like, it is really important, I think, for the the masculine to to to go into the heart and, and first see what’s there and and develop it in the most beautiful and beneficial ways there are. You know, this this a lot of it has to do with a lot of people are in a lot of pain, you know, and they don’t wanna face the pain because I get it. It’s it’s challenging. Right. But, you know, this is what’s needed too, for people that are in a lot of pain.
It is to do it and do it in a in a helpful way and whatever ways we need to do it in a and and we can’t do it. Can’t if pain is so severe, we can’t be with it all the time. Right? We have to have all these other coping mechanisms and things too. Right.
So how can we develop the heart? And even if we’re not in a really, painful space or a lot of that’s gone away, the the energy of the heart, the more it’s developed and built, the more fuel, it it it provides us to go into higher levels and to, develop more skillfulness, more wisdom, more these heart qualities like kindness and compassion and equanimity that are just profound, you know. In in the Buddhist tradition, it’s called the Brahma Viharas or the the sublime abodes, you know. Where are we living, you know? I mean, metaphorically speaking or energetically speaking, are we living in a in a dumpster fire?
Are we, you know, in a in a heavenly realm where things are magnificent and kind and helpful and peaceful? And and even when it’s not okay, can we be okay with it not being okay too, you know? So No. I was just gonna say and not to interject. What is okay?
I mean, that’s another thing too. You know, that’s all perception. It’s all, and and obviously, a meditation practice helps with that. One question I have for you that came up as you’re, so articulately explaining, your point was, where you were before, the the old person you are and the person you are now. Has your meditation practice given you, any compassion for that other self?
Have, have you come to a point where you’re grateful for the person that you were even though when you look back, you’re like, god, I was a real dick. So do you have you come to terms with and there’s no right answer, obviously, but, what’s your answer to that? Very good question. And I’ll, defer to kind of one of my online teachers here that I really like that helped me a lot in a certain period, and he’s got a massive following now. Matt Kahn, k a h n.
His, I think it’s his second book, Everything is Here to Help You. And it revolves around the question, what if the worst things that ever happened to me were the was the greatest gift I’ve ever been given? And it really, you know, set me it did you talk about perceptional, shifts here. So he’s taking all these things that people think are so horrible and he’s kind of looking at them in a new light and saying, you know, what is how is this helping me actually? You know, these classical spiritual things are, you know, like, what is this trying to teach me, right?
And I would say, yes, compassion. That’s the only thing that makes sense at certain points when things are really, really challenging, you know, of all the different, options we have to how to view things and respond to things. I really have not found any wiser, better way when things are really, really rough. And I’m not talking that pity is really it’s it’s it’s called a near enemy of compassion because it it’s it’s it’s similar, but pity means, okay. I’m gonna distance this so and feel bad about it so I can feel better about myself because of it.
No. A compassion is a connect that we all are here. We’re all struggling from time to time on certain levels. And then, you know but if I stay there and I’m just empathic with that pain, then there’s 2 people in pain or there’s more pain. So at a certain point, then I see my classic compassion, phrases if I’m doing a formal compassion practice or, I acknowledge this pain.
So acknowledgment is huge. A lot of times we pretend it doesn’t exist. It shouldn’t be there. But yeah. Or or it shouldn’t be like this.
Well, I got news for you. It is. This is how it is right now. It’s happening. It’s like this now.
It doesn’t matter if it should be that way or not. It’s like this right now. So just just just being honest with ourselves sometimes in those situations is such a huge eye opening, refreshment. And then, you know, I care about this pain. And like I we were talking earlier, the way men care is different from the way, females care.
I mean, I’m a little bit old school, so we can just say masculine and feminine. Right? So what degree of helpful care am I able to have right now? True honest care to the best of my ability now. I’m not probably where I wanna be, but what can I muster now as, you know, and then may this pain release and may I know peace?
So a lot of times these strategies are there to release this pain. There’s more wise and skillful ways to release pain than others, I would say. But at the end of the day, if they’re in service to being peaceful, I think that’s a that’s a good start. So, yes, I would say that absolutely because of, some, challenging times in my life, that’s about the only thing that makes sense. When I look at all the options of lashing out, shutting down, distracting, numbing out, you know, all these horrible coping strategies, you know, or even good coping strategies.
Like, I’m just gonna put my attention to my feet now for a little bit or, you know, watch a, inspiring move. Uh-oh. I don’t know if you’re still hearing me. You froze. So I’ll be selling.
I have to make note of this. Did I lose you for good? I hope I didn’t lose you for good. Oh, there you are. Yeah.
There just the the hotspot must have dropped out. So I’ll do a make note of this point for, editing reasons 12. Sure. Because I’m like, oh, usually we talked about that too. Right?
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah. Go ahead, Mike.
I’ll I’ll I’ll pick up right where I would left off that, you know, of all those decent strategies that we have, again, compassion is the thing that makes the most sense for me. Yeah. Right. I love that fact that you, brought up pity, and it seems like it was more personal, but, than connection, but the connection plays into it. The reason it struck me as, resonant for me is one of the things I learned a long time ago was about pity.
And you put it so articulately because if I see somebody who is disabled in in a store or somebody struggling, back in the day, I used to be like, man, that poor son of a gun. And, in a meditation a long time ago, it says, pity is not needed. Pity is unnecessary. When you are pitying somebody, you are disconnecting from them. You’re saying, well, this person has this going on.
I don’t. But it it masquerades as compassion, but it’s separating nonetheless. So, right now, I love that I got that lesson in my meditation, because now, I see the world, as pollyannish as it seems as my brothers and sisters. Whether somebody is differently abled, whether somebody has a different viewpoint politically, I’m like, anytime I find myself disconnecting from anybody and it’s it’s a not a daily thing, but, you know, some days I go to the supermarket, and I’m like, I gotta pick a bread. I gotta I want a BLT, and I’m like, I see it.
What about all these people? Oh, this place is busy. Other times I walk into the supermarket, I’m like, wow. Here I am with my family. This is so awesome.
So anytime I disconnect or have a seeming disconnection from the world, I have a mantra. I’m like, I am you and you are me, and it just kinda brings everything back into, into where things need to be, for me anyway. That’s so great to to find something to connect with and and and and the shared experience. I know for me a lot of times that the pity seems to come from, okay, that could happen to me. You know?
Yeah. I don’t want I don’t wanna admit that I could that could happen to me, and so I wanna distance myself so I don’t have to feel that. And and, you know, because a lot of times, if we if we’re around somebody and pity comes up, it’s because I don’t wanna be like them. I don’t wanna feel that way, you know, and and I I don’t wanna have that experience. And so I feel bad for them in order that I have could feel better about myself.
Right. Insulate yourself. Yes. Exactly. So it’s this speaks to the next point in meditation and the four foundations of mindfulness is, mindfulness of feeling tone or hedonic tone.
You know, is this pleasant, unpleasant, or neither of those? And so many of our choices and so many ways we view things is because it’s either pleasant or unpleasant. Yeah. We If it’s pleasant, we want more of it. You know, we’re trying to hang on to it.
If it’s not pleasant, get it away from me. I don’t want it. How can I get out of this? You know? And just knowing that, just being aware of those things, then, okay.
Well, this is what’s happening now. How am I with that? How can I be with that? You know? Sometimes it is skillful to get the out of there or get more of this because it’s it’s helpful.
Right? But other times, it’s it’s just we’re going on unconscious, habit patterns just based on pleasant and unpleasant. What a great awareness because I I was kinda giggling because that thought is just so alien to me. And sometimes it’s not. Some days I’m very human.
I’m like, oh, this really sucks. And other but most times I’m just like, alright. It is as it is. How are we gonna jump way point out? How can I use this to move you forward?
And, you know, getting in that, staying at getting back to pity, staying at a pity party for myself. And, most times, my default is, you know, connecting to my higher self. But there are times where I’m like, this really stinks, But my meditation practice is perfect. So if something, quote, bad happens, then I just go to my cushion. I’m like, okay.
I know bad was a judgment I placed on it. How can I grow from this? Where can I move forward from a human standpoint, from a physical standpoint, from a a higher standpoint, from a soul perspective? And, it’s just so funny to, that we all do this, and myself included. You, Glenn.
Like, every now and then, our weaker moments like, this really sucks. I’m like, oh, this is awesome. Or like like, okay. Yeah. This really blew I gotta get out of here.
I’m like, whereas in my more, enlightened moments, I’d just be like, yeah. Yeah. You’re feeling your body and you don’t like it. Stay. Stay.
Absolutely. And this goes to our comfort zone too because we have some people, this is, the polarity here, some people that they have too much comfort zone, right, and they never wanna get out of it. And so immediately start to feel a little bit uncomfortable or, you know, I don’t wanna do this, then I think it’s helpful for those people to to push against their comfort zone, get outside their comfort zone more. There’s other people that are like adrenaline junkies. So, like, they never have a moment of rest whatsoever.
They don’t even know what a comfort zone is. They’re all over the place all the time, crazy, you know, thrill seeking, all this stuff. They might need to dial it back a little bit, you know Right. Instead of running themselves ragged, go into their comfort zone more. So this notion of balance.
Yeah? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. This growth does come from, you know, getting outside of her comfort zone.
A lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I think about it, I talk about this on the show all the time. Like, the times I’ve grown the most is when I’ve been in the most pain and when I’ve gone through the most pain.
It’s like, you know, you don’t learn much when you’re sitting on a beach in the you know, overlooking the Mediterranean. But, when you’re like, you just got fired from a job or you just lost somebody that you love dearly, it’s like, okay. Okay. I can get through this. And not with that we have to go out of our way to have these things happen because it’s almost like the things that we need to address are going to be mirrored to us in our lives, are going to come up.
So it’s not like we have to always go outside of our comfort zone or look for challenging situations, you know, or, you know, or avoid them either all the time because that’s another thing that comes up with a meditation practice. Just this innate trust in knowing that, things are gonna be okay. I’m gonna have the, you know, this the fear of missing out stuff that’s, you know, we’re going to have the experiences we need to have whether we want them to or not. We’re not gonna miss out on them. We have this deep trust that, everything’s, I’ll have exactly what I need exactly when I need it.
Once that that that I can’t be threatened with poverty or the other extreme of vast amounts of wealth where I can’t live my lifestyle and my friends because I have to do so many more responsibilities. If we can’t be kind of threatened with either of those extremes on money, then there’s just, you know, just having this trust that we’re gonna have the resources we need to do what we need to do, what, you know, what we’re here to do. And that it goes to this okayness too. So that I I would I would say, this radical acceptance, that’s another teaching he has of it’s okay to everything. The exception being abuse.
Abuse is never okay. Right. Other than that and it’s okay not to be okay. It’s okay that I don’t like something, and it’s okay that I shouldn’t be like that. But it you know?
So this this radical acceptance of that mantra, it’s okay. And then the step 2 part of that, is making the you can do that as long as you want, but finally coming to the point where these choices that we know we need to make that we’ve been putting off, that’s the step 2. So if we don’t have to do those right away, it’s okay. But when we’re ready to do that, then we can make the choices we know we need to make that we’ve been putting off. So yeah.
And I love that. That that radical acceptance really helped me a lot too. Yeah. Huge. Huge.
Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s, and it it’s so helpful in everything because it puts things in perspective as an entrepreneur. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day. It’s like, there are days where I’m like, oh, cool.
All bills are taken care of. Other days, I’m like, oh, okay. How am I gonna get rent this week? So it’s like up and down. And in those more human moments, you’d be like, dude, am I gonna be on the street?
Am I gonna be on the street? I’m like, dude, first off, you’re good. You’re always gonna be good, and, you know, that always comes through in meditation. And you think about that too. Like, in those more human moments, like, we’ll have food to eat.
You know, like and then you just think about it. Like, realistically, you’ve been alive for 60 years. When was the when was the last time that you went to bed hungry? And you think about it. You’re like, I never have.
I’m like, you’re always gonna be okay. You’re always gonna be fine. Your brain is gonna say you’ll be living under a bridge and have no food, but the reality for you is that that won’t happen. So get back in perspective. And, obviously, to our point, compassion wise, there are people where that is a problem, where that is a challenge, and you send love and light.
And on some level, I I wouldn’t punish myself or diminish that. It’s like, when you think that, it’s really kinda I don’t know. I had this epiphany just kinda it’s kinda disrespectful of people that are experiencing that. It’s like your mind is creating a rally a reality that isn’t a reality, whereas it’s a reality for somebody else. So just just add it back.
Just reel it. And to your point, you’re always gonna be fine. And, I mean, that is that’s my meditation practice. Like, you’re always gonna be fine. You’ll always be loved.
You’ll always be taken care of. You’re always safe. So There there are so many different fear programs I feel too, and there’s a big one around money. And so the sooner we can see, that that there’s a lot of fear involved around money, the more that we have the strategies to to to deal with those programs. You know?
Right. Yeah. Part being human. Yeah. Yes.
In the current age that we’re at. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Well, Josh, we are coming up we’ve gone past an hour, and we could talk for another 5 hours.
I know. Enjoy this time for sure. But before we do go, I’m gonna have you stay on. We’ll, stop the recording and for guests. But before while we do have listeners on, how can they follow the work that you’re doing?
How can they, keep up with all the things that you’re doing in your life? What’s the best way to get in touch with you? Well, a lot now. I’m not doing in person events because I’m overseas in my fiancee’s in Denmark at the moment, and we’re still trying to figure out where we’re gonna live, what we’re gonna do, and how that’s all planning out. International relationships are complex financially and legally too.
So we’re we’re figuring that out. So right now, I’m mostly online at integratingpresence.com. I’m on insight timer 2/integratingpresence. So you can find live events there, a course, tons of guided meditations. I do a podcast.
I just launched inner skilled dotcom, which is just for now, it’s gonna be, a a podcast, and it’s gonna go from there. It’s gonna go on from there. And I don’t wanna say too much about it. It’s still in development too, but I’ve got over 300 posts, yeah, on, on, in integrating presence.com. So check me out there and yep.
Awesome. Awesome. Well, Josh, like I said, stay on the line. We’re gonna talk a little bit, later after listeners, but thank you so much for your time today. It’s been an absolute joy.
Absolutely loved it. Well, likewise, I couldn’t, echo that enough. It’s been a pleasure and a joy and a and a great benefit and a thrill in a way. So Indeed. Indeed.
Well, we’ll be talking much more in the future for sure. There we have it, my friends. My interview with Josh Dippold. My apologies for my side of the audio. I think my computer switched inputs at some point, and it wasn’t going through my headset microphone.
It was going through the computer. And if it wasn’t audible, of course, I would have updated it, but I didn’t want to lose any of this interview with Josh. So my friends, I hope it wasn’t too unnerving for you, but chances are pretty good. Most of you are meditators, so it probably didn’t bother you in the least. But anyway, you go think about the things that Josh and I talked about today, know that I’ll be back here tomorrow with another episode of Zen Commuter in the morning, and another episode of calmer in 5 in the evening.
But for right now, Stomwallsters 4, the Zen Commuter signing off saying make the rest of your day absolutely spectacular, and I will see you on the road. Spectacular, and I will see you on the road.
Integrating Presence 