[ original unedited version: https://youtu.be/rJlxn1OZkms ]
(Ai assisted:)
In this fourth episode of the anapanasati series Integrating Presence welcomes meditation teacher Jacques Rutzky for a deep, personal conversation on mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati) and its role in daily life. Jacques shares his 50+ year journey into meditation—starting at age 16 in Detroit, discovering the Pali Canon, a pivotal 1974 retreat with Joseph Goldstein, and 45 years under Thai teacher Dhiravamsa (formerly Phra Bhikkhu Dhammasuddhi). He emphasizes practical, individualized breath practice over rigid methods, adapting to where students naturally feel the breath (nose, chest, abdomen). The discussion explores modern challenges like screen addiction and fragmented attention, hindrances (craving, aversion, etc.), and using breath as both anchor and refuge. Jacques advocates experimentation, slowing down, and viewing the mind as one tool among many—not the only one.
0:00 – Intro: Mind as a Tool, Not the Only One
0:53 – Guest Intro: Who is Jacques Rusky?
1:58 – Jacques’ Background: From Psychotherapy to Meditation Teaching
3:19 – How Josh Discovered Jacques via Students
4:12 – Preference for Deep, Personal Teacher-Student Connections
7:44 – Jacques’ Early Dharma Path (Age 16, Pali Canon, No Teacher)
9:05 – First Retreat (1974 with Joseph Goldstein)
11:17 – Meeting Teacher Dhiravamsa: Hitchhiking, Cooking, 45-Year Bond
20:13 – Dhiravamsa’s Lineage: Thai Theravada, Forest vs. Scholarly Traditions
26:34 – Anapanasati: Why Breath? Always Available, No Need to Create
28:39 – Teaching Breath: Individualize Where You Feel It (Nose/Chest/Abdomen)
30:50 – Breath as Concentration + Insight Tool; Refuge from Chaos
33:29 – Modern Challenges: Screen Addiction, Stimulation Overload
35:01 – Practical Tips: Slow Down, Timers, Bells, Experiment with Devices
40:20 – Human Beings, Not Human Doings; Slowing Life for Mindfulness
46:17 – Breath Nuances: Pauses, Uniqueness of Each Breath
46:41 – Distractions & Thinking: Mind as Favorite Tool (Hammer/Screwdriver Metaphor)
51:36 – Working with Hindrances: 5 Hindrances + Antidotes
54:39 – Physical Breath Issues: Blocked Nostril, Switch Sides, No Forcing
57:23 – Wrap-Up: Contact Jacques, Final Breath Advice & Experimentation
1:00:27 – Closing Blessing: Sila, Samadhi, Paññā for All Beings
Text Number:440-714-1476 (prefers text over calls)
Email: jr.minka[AT]mac[DOT]com
Audio: Breath as an Anchor & Refuge for the Digital Age | Anapanasati Series With Jacques Rutzky
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
Intro: Mind as a Tool, Not the Only One
I see the mind as a tool but not the only tool in the toolbox
and very often we get used to and end up
with a favorite tool but that tool isn’t appropriate for every situation but
to continue with the metaphor the body gets used to holding that
particular tool in a certain way. So when we let go of it, um it feels like
something is missing and we yearn for it and we want it back
because we want to if it’s a hammer beat something. If it’s a screwdriver, we want to turn something. I don’t take
either position to be um the only possibility.
Guest Intro: Who is Jacques Rusky?
Thoughts are a hindrance and bad and we have to get rid of them.
Hold us. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence Inner Skilled 2 and today I have Jacques Rusky with me.
Jock, what’s going on? Not much. I tried to live as simple life as possible.
Uh but today is a good day. I had a good night’s sleep. Oh, lovely. All right. I will give you
the standard question here. Uh who is Jacques and what kind of work does he do?
Um it’s an interesting question. I’ll uh who who is Jacques from a Buddhist point
of view? If we accept or eventually see
have the experience of seeing the arising and passing away
of the self then the sense of identity dissolves.
And so Jacques is just a name. Um but to answer
Jacques’ Background: From Psychotherapy to Meditation Teaching
your question more commonly, I would say that uh um currently I live in Evston,
Illinois. I uh teach uh meditation.
Uh many of my students are from Oberlin College or were from Oberlin College. I
lived there for about 15 years teaching the students and uh prior to that lived
in Woodside, California and uh prior to having a uh dramatic uh
illness uh viral encphilitis. Um,
I uh was a psychotherapist for 20 years
in California in the San Francisco Bay area. I would consider most people would
consider me retired, but for me teaching is semif.
And I really enjoy the connection with uh people who are very interested in
meditation. anywhere from a beginner to someone who’s been sitting for 25 or 30
years. And I like being challenged. Well, great. So do I. And I like asking
How Josh Discovered Jacques via Students
a lot of questions. That’s why I have a podcast, too, right? But but I I really I can sense the depth of your practice,
you know. So it’s it’s u I’m so great. I I reached out to you and just tell the
listeners here how I found you. who I um practice with some of your maybe current
and ex- studentent and I won’t say the names but I’m really impressed um with
both of them of course um and so when they listed you as one of their teachers
and I hadn’t seen or heard your name before I thought well this is interesting I got to go find um Jacques
here and I I looked online and I didn’t see any audio interviews or you know
video and I thought well here’s a gold mine I’ve I’ve I’ve I’ve struck the gold, you know, in in a certain sense,
right? Uh or maybe I just didn’t do my web search well enough or something like that. But No, you did. You did.
Preference for Deep, Personal Teacher-Student Connections
I did. Okay. Well, great. Yes. So glad I reached out then. Um I I have no ambition to acquire a large
following and um don’t write books on meditation.
There are enough books written about meditation. I’d rather have personal contact with people. One of the
difficulties these days when you have a teacher is that that teacher has
hundreds of students. And even if you go on retreat, it’s
unlikely that you’ll actually have an interview with the teacher. You’ll have
interviews with their students. And I’d much rather have a deeper connection
with people. And uh so I see fewer students and it’s
it’s nice to watch the development of a deeper state of the practice over time.
It is a really good point here. I mean I see the pros and cons of each. You know
on one hand we can bring more people to the dharma that way but like you said
there’s something to be said about putting this mi bag in front of another mi bag. Well, hopefully it’s is a meat
suit instead of a mei bag. That’s kind of when we get into unhelpful selfing. That’s a a such uh ter term that I
really love it. Just kind of humorous too of how the selfing that you talked about beginning um can be. But yeah,
there’s something to be said about it. And these experiences I think are becoming more rare and all and at the
same time more cherished. So you know and hopefully we don’t romanticize it
too much because we do hear some spiritual stories where people you know go off in the Himalayas and try to seek
you know a guru that doesn’t have any kind. I think those are really heartwarming and uplifting stories you
know so there’s something to be said about that. So yeah that I I feel there’s pros and cons to both of these
approaches and I will just say teacher I’m working with now is kind of on the same vein. um you have to be a really
dedicated practitioner to to work with him and um yeah and we still haven’t got
to meet in real life just due to a lot of different I would say challenges um
but the the time seems like it could be coming. So I I love this model too of
having for many years I didn’t have a a core teacher in my practice you know it’s kind of wary and oh I can just do
it from books and dharma talks and my own but there is really something to be
said about onetoone access with a teacher that is especially if one
resonates right so finding that match of someone we really respect and admire but
not only that that we’re actually seeing benefits that’s in our own lives and then that’s kind of rubbing off with
others too, you know, and I maybe I’m being a little bit hypocritical, too, because I have a a podcast here. I
talked to a lot of people from all walks of life and it does get a little bit of bigger reach, but not like some of the
huge ones either. So, I want to say there there’s a there’s a time and a place and pros and cons for all these
approaches. But I just wanted to acknowledge that and give that validation because I I I find that really um very helpful in my own
experience when at one time I didn’t really see it or value it as much. So I just want to throw that out there too.
Jacques’ Early Dharma Path (Age 16, Pali Canon, No Teacher)
Yeah. Um of course and I started out the age of 16 observing my family and especially
my parents noticing how unhappy they were and I didn’t want to end up that
way. And so not having any teacher
available in outside of Detroit, Michigan, I found a spiritual bookstore
and sort of browsed every possible option
that was available until I came across um the polycanon
and started reading. first book um of meditation was uh um helpful. Um and I
think due to my own lethargy and lack of
understanding mostly I would fall asleep and then uh but I kept at it um with um
finding the Satipatana Suta as the main book that I would read from and gain
understanding from and uh kept meditating. ating. And when I went to
First Retreat (1974 with Joseph Goldstein)
Oberlin College, turns out that my roommate was also a meditator.
And a year later, um, I was making preparations to leave for Thailand to
become a monk. This was after doing my first retreat with Joseph Goldstein.
And what year was this? 1974. Wow. So you came to the dhamma early and
um yeah I would just brief background I wish I would have had kind of more wholesome skillful introduction but like
many of us we come through the ducador I think to practice um for me it was the
beat the beats you know and I found out later that yeah why it was exciting kind
of thrilling and they did have some you know knowledge of dharma that’s maybe
not the most wholesome skillful way that I would have liked to but it was better than nothing you know I looked around or
I I saw the four noble truths. I say, “Oh, you know, it hit me real hard suffering.” Oh, yeah. That’s what’s going on. I could see it every, you
know, I could see it. But then the second noble truth, okay, uh I don’t understand that. Third noble truth. Oh,
that’s great. But, you know, but fourth noble truth, oh, this is I don’t understand any of that. This is
completely over my head. So, I was completely overwhelmed by that first noble truth. I could say, yeah, there’s
no doubt. But for what, you know, no wisdom, no kind of um sila. whatsoever
unfortunately you know so then it kind of hit like a ton of bricks years later
but you know use that to the advantage of an opportunity for for coming to the
dharma so in that sense it’s not all that bad and it sounds like you’ve had some challenges in your life too so
you’re no stranger to the ducadore either uh but I think it’s quite amazing that you had the good fortune and
probably maybe past parame me um to to to to get in when you did. And so before
we get into Anapana where I want to focus more on, continue though with with with your journey uh too about maybe
real briefly if you want to say how you met Joseph Goldstein, maybe how you got involved in the the Cal uh and not you
Meeting Teacher Dhiravamsa: Hitchhiking, Cooking, 45-Year Bond
know what whatever we want to say about the the California Damasian. But I’m also interested in Thailand because um I
I’m I’m booked on to do winter retreat at Chithurst in uh Thai forest tradition of Ajan Chan England um in in in
February and and March. So yeah, I’m familiar with this tradition and very inspired by them too. Um and then of
course the the satiana it’s you know foundational. Right. So yeah, before we
get into Anapana, which I want to say say a little bit more about Yeah, just
because I’m I’m kind of a newer generation to this. I didn’t live it and I I’d like to to kind of know from, you
know, more not the huge Dhamma superstars, so to speak, for lack of better term, kind of how that time
period was and and and what it was like too. at at that time um my
roommate from Oberlin, I had uh gone out west
um to study at a martial arts academy in Colorado,
thinking, “Oh, that’s the thing that I’m going to dedicate my life to in Tai
Chi.” And I followed that teacher out to California. And then my roommate sent me
an a message. This was a letter because they didn’t have email back then. Um
talking about this retreat in California and just uh worked as much as I could to
save up money for the retreat. This was 30 days in the Sequoia National Forest
silent retreat, my first retreat. And uh we started out sitting an hour
for each sit. And uh it was it was so
clear after that retreat that this was how I wanted to continue.
But um I uh I was still looking for a teacher that I felt a deep connection
to. And so I was preparing to go to Thailand
and just wander and search for a teacher and got a flyer in the mail that said,
“Well, there’s this Thai monk who’s coming from England to give a retreat on
the east coast.” So, I wrote them a letter and said, “If if I do the if I
help with the cooking and run the kitchen because I cooked at Oberlit,
um, can I do the retreat for free?” And they said, “Of course.” And so I hitchhiked
across the country in the middle of winter. Literally, I started out on Jan,
no, no, December 31st. And when I hit the Rockies, there was an
enormous snowstorm. And um I remember arriving in New Haven,
Connecticut, and meeting the manager of the retreat, who was so kind and uh
welcoming. Then a few days later, we went to New York because uh my teacher
was giving a talk at uh Chugim Trump’s New York center.
And I remember we were sitting up in the balcony and I was I had never had
contact with him. I was still wondering what was going to happen. and the doors
open and he takes two steps forward and the room is filled with people from Ch
Trump’s group and they’re all talking and chatting away and um my teacher just
stands there still and then gradually people in the room start noticing that
the guest speaker has entered the room and so it was like the Red Sea partying
and He walked very slowly, very self-contained,
very mindfully and and I just had this feeling just in
my chest. Uh tears started coming down my eyes and phrase came in my mind of uh
I’m home. And so we had a little bit of contact uh
throughout the first retreat was 30 days on the east coast. And um
at at the end um he asked me if I would come to uh England to be the cook at his
retreat center in uh the south of England. Um he he liked my my cooking
and I would I would notice uh very um intently uh when he would go
back for a second and what he would take for a second and then I would know ah he
likes that. So I was cooking for him most of the time and uh he was my
teacher for 45 years until he died and I tried as much as possible to go to
let’s see for the first eight years I was his then um I became a therapist
and uh would try and go on retreat once or twice a year wherever he was and it
it was a rare and wonderful relationship.
Um, and there were these odd little things that uh made it
special. Um, for example, if I at the tail end of the retreat, the last day,
uh, he he would say to me, “Jacqu, I think this would be a good retreat for you to go to.” and he would hand me a
piece of paper with an address and a telephone number. Um, it could be in uh
Great Britain, it could be in Germany, it could be in France, it could be somewhere in the United States and uh we
would have zero contact between for a year and I would just show
up in Grenob, France at such and such a address and I would knock on the door
and he would open it and I’m sorry. Go ahead. No, this is great. So, I I
got me in a little bit of an interesting position here because if you’ve mentioned it, I missed it and I’m sure
you’re okay with sharing the name of the teacher, especially since that it’s passed now. Yeah, please do because I’m
in suspense here. when he was a monk his name was uh uh Praobana Damasudi
and um after he did the 7-year sort of PhD in Buddhism program at Mahachula
Longhorn University in Bangkok, he was interested in meditation
and as he told me uh no one uh in the
university encouraged him to go into meditation. And so he when he graduated he wandered
in the forest and found a teacher and stayed with that teacher for 2 years and
then um went back uh to the monastery where he was staying at. And eventually
his uh the abbott of that monastery invited him to England.
And because there there was a Thai temple in London.
And and uh then he realized that those who
were interested in meditation were not the Thai people who he was serving but
all the westerners. And so he he found that when he wore a
robe and sat on a golden throne at the temple, there was a great personal
distance between him and the student. And so he took off the robes
and um just kept on teaching meditation for the rest of his life. I see. Lovely.
Excuse me. Please, please, please go through. And so when he took off the robes he took another name which he is
Dhiravamsa’s Lineage: Thai Theravada, Forest vs. Scholarly Traditions
mostly known for. Uh Draamsa VR
deams viger. Okay. So um for me too and and the some
of the listeners that don’t know kind of this distinction of Thai Buddhism the do
you feel it might be helpful to give a little bit of a classification about that to kind of know where he fits
in with lineages too? Well or do you think that’s important or what
should be said about that? That’s a good question. Um, Buddhism in Thailand is terraada Buddhism
and it it basically means those who follow or or take the polycanon
as their um the writings that were the words of the Buddha.
That is sort of like an assumption. Although who knows what’s happened in 2500 years,
especially since the first 300 years after the Buddha died, everything was a
verbal um transmission. Now, one of the things
that I found very interesting about my teacher was that he was very open to
learning about his students and about the culture where he taught. And so when
we were on retreat for a month, he would give a talk every other day after lunch
after the sit after lunch and um he would include the basics of Terravada
Buddhism in a 30-day retreat, but mostly
it was his way of understanding the western mind that allowed him to use
language where they could understand um what was in the basics of terra
Buddhism and uh especially the satipana sutra at
that time in his life uh he was very adamant that mindfulness was everything
and forget about concentration that’s a waste of time and later on in life he
started experimenting with the genre I see I guess where I was going with that and there’s a few other things that
throw in here is in Thailand. I’ve heard there’s kind of um a more scholarly um
direction and and then the other one and one’s more common the other. Help me
with the names here. Uh and then let me throw in a few more really brief things. What year did you go across and then um
to to to this to the east coast and also uh the first one in the the the the
forest? Who was the teacher? was that uh and and just to help me clarify who who
the teacher uh in that retreat as well and then one really quick one um h why
Thailand how how did you first get your mindset that you wanted to go to Thailand even though it didn’t pan out
exactly like that so there’s a few things there because Joseph talked about Thailand
and how um Ajancha right his he he was yes
yes he had a very meaningful time with acha.
And there often times in any kind of religion there is a split between those
who follow the word and are very academically oriented and those who are
very oriented towards experiencing the practice itself.
Excuse me for a second. Sure. And help me remember this. Is it d um is it damaute or help me the the
classifications the terms? Do you know these in Thailand? Is it something ute?
Um um my memory is not as good as it used to be.
Okay. But I also tend to uh leave out things that are not so important
if that it’s a good point. Exactly. So those those in the and if familiar with Thai Buddhism will kind of
know what I’m alluding to here, but I’m forgetting to and and it’s really not that important to have such a classification.
Well, the Thai forest tradition um as far as I know honors and follows
the more aesthetic practices that the Buddha allowed. And my teacher was not of that
orientation. I think he was very good at picking up on who he was teaching to.
Um, and so the ones who were more interested in um a a more difficult path
um might end up in Thailand themselves. I see. Yes. We’re we’re from from what I’m remembering the Ajan Cha he started
off in a in a more scholarly lineage and then maybe around when he met Ajan Moon
and then um yeah got into more of the the forest tradition and I I can’t remember the the exact terminology but
the it it’s clear in in when we talk about Dharmama practice and study is
there’s seems to be these classifications of general rough classifications of scholarly types and
then more practiceoriented types and you get a rare combination where you have some who do or excel in both and I would
say I would add another one more faith-based you know and this is a common I think throughout different types of religion too and so yeah I I
tend to side more with the practice although you know I I I love going uh deep diving into polycanon 2 and it
reminded me of a thing from the canon too about I forget exactly what the reference is where the teaching is you
pay attention to the king, the king’s cook, right? And how you’re you’re paying. What does he like? What does he
not like? And yeah, you’ll do a lot more successful if you notice what they like and what they don’t like and then cater
to that. I don’t know if I’m phrasing that in the most helpful way, but I couldn’t help but uh be reminded of of
that teaching. Maybe you can elaborate or clarify that that a little bit if you’d like, but I do want to move us on
Anapanasati: Why Breath? Always Available, No Need to Create
here to Anapana. And um I guess maybe a jumping in point since you mentioned um
Anapana uh I mean since you mentioned satipana which is some people say four
foundations of mindfulness I like four frames of reference um kind of the four
establishments of mindfulness too. So you know there’s a little bit of playing with the words but basically on the
topics of the body and there’s like a six-fold way to pay attention to the body or be mindful of the body then into
va pleasant unpleasant neither and then chitta heart mind and then dharmas which
is a whole list of list and so uh it can be um yeah so there’s a lot to it in a
way but the reason I bring this up is because if I’m remembering ing somewhere else it says um those who excel at
anapanosati fulfill the four foundations of mindfulness and I don’t know if it’s
vice versa or not but what we the commonality we have through both of these and anapanosati for anybody that
doesn’t know is often translated as mindfulness of breathing so the very
first one deals with in-n-out breath according to a lot of different translations and dealing with with with
the bodily formations or the bodily formation And there’s a similarities in the sativana
about um you know where it starts off with the breath too. So that’s the
common jumping in point and I would say thread that runs throughout both of them
as they progress or things. Um, so, so anyway, I want to see how you just kind
of approach that in general as maybe a a starting end point and then want to get
into how you just as very practical how you teach students on a pana and um u
maybe what kind of flavors you add that you don’t see in other teachers or maybe
you know wherever you want to take it and how you want to jump into this. Well, um, one of the things that I
Teaching Breath: Individualize Where You Feel It (Nose/Chest/Abdomen)
really value about mindfulness of the breath, one of the many, is that it’s
always there. So, we don’t have to create an image or a thought or an idea. Uh,
the breath is um for for the most part obvious
because we breathe in and we breathe out. Then what comes to my mind when I’m
talking with a student is where do you notice the breath? And some people
notice it in the abdomen, some people notice it in the chest, some
people notice it in their sinuses, and some in the tip of the nose.
And when I began teaching, um,
I was a bit rigid in following what my teacher taught as well as what was in
the text. And um, when people had difficulty, I
would interpret that as well. They didn’t have enough concentration. um they were impatient. Their need for
stimulation was higher than one might get if you’re just sitting still and noticing the
breath. And over time I came to realized that the fault was not in the student
but in me. And um I began to
I began to ask my students, well where do you notice the breath? and they would
tell me. I said, ‘Well, if you notice it there the most and it’s obvious, stay
with that and let’s see what happens. So it all became like an experiment
uh between the two of us trying to find what worked and and so mindfulness of
the breath is is both a concentrative technique because we’re focusing the
Breath as Concentration + Insight Tool; Refuge from Chaos
mind away from extraneous circumstances, sounds, sensations, and we’re coming
just to the breath. And so that develops concentration. Mind begins to and then
it’s easier to see what arises whether it’s in the body, in feelings, in
consciousness, um or mental objects. And um for most
people um staying with the breath can be
the main challenge of the practice for years. And uh I’ve had a few students after a
period of time, five or 10 years, say um
why didn’t you tell me it was going to take this long for me to be able to stay with the breath for maybe half a
sitting? And uh I said, well, I I didn’t want to
discourage you, so I just respond to what they ask about. I find that the
breath as as you said is not just the beginning of the practice
and then as stated in the satipana suta um then there is I always forget these
words it’s mindfulness of the body moving clear comprehension
saga right sat sati sampa yes basically being aware of wherever
you are and whatever you’re doing and and then
uh the practice continues to pay more attention to what’s going on inside as
the mind becomes more settled and aware. Let’s see going back a little bit. Um so
I find that the breath can be both um an
anchor in the sense of concentration um
but also a refuge when things become overwhelming and there’s too much going
on especially inside the mind. going back to the breath can become a refuge
from all of that chaos until the mind calms down and then we
can notice what is going on because we’re not reacting so much. And in our
culture these days, um, most of the students who come to me have been
Modern Challenges: Screen Addiction, Stimulation Overload
trained on screens and are so used to so much stimulation.
I remember one student uh as um told me
about how much he was addicted to his telephone.
And I I was curious. I I asked him. I said, “How much time do you spend on
your telephone?” And he said, “Oh, I can find out.” And so he got the telephone and punched
a few buttons and he said, “Yesterday I spent six hours on my telephone and very
few little of that time was spent talking to someone. It was looking looking at images.”
Yeah. Now this is um so yes I would say
okay so I’m of the generation that’s kind of between the generation you’re talking about imagine and your
generation so I know a little bit of both of these ways of life you know I was the last generation to know a world
before internet you know and so it’s um I tell people when I was in the library
people were making fun of me oh this internet it will never take off now we see it inseparable basically from
everyday life. I mean, I think even certain religious communities like the Amish or something, they they’re not
totally removed. You know, they still interact with people that are, you know, still using it. So, I think this is one
of the modern-day challenges when it comes to meditation. And I want to ask
Practical Tips: Slow Down, Timers, Bells, Experiment with Devices
you some other like what else do you see when it comes to meditation? But I think this is the biggest one. I’m curious now
how do you work and and also for myself I’ve noticed in my own experience
when I am like talking like this I can have more opportunity and space to be mindful it’s not that big of distraction
uh but when I’m interacting constantly you know either typing or using a screen
scrolling or touchpad on my so anytime I’m interacting with this machine um a
lot of times oh there’s so much okay Uh, one of my teachers said, “It’s basically greed that I want to get things done and
keep pushing myself.” And I didn’t see that. I mean, it’s completely obvious now, but I didn’t even see that it’s just greed that I just wanted to keep
getting things done because I identify with doing and accomplishing yada yada.
But even to the point where I’ll I feel my body tensing up, you know, I feel the
mind state that’s not really helpful or wholesome and I’ll override that to push through to do something, you know. So do
you even gone through trying to develop some kind of mind uh having some kind of
mindful device interaction um other than a complete
abstinence and I’ve done that too for the first time probably since the ‘9s you know I did a whole month in Korea
Zen retreat where I handed in my electronics and I oh let me tell you I had no idea how much my sense of reality
is now tethered to devices and interacting with them. It was it was
quite an eye openening experience to to really see how um serious this can be
you know so yeah I guess practical things um inside and outside of meditation of this and uh any other
challenges you see with students and then if there’s any link to the breath too because I know the breath can be a
really good gauge of just how we are because it’s anapana lamp such talks
about how um you know the Sanskrit is prana so it’s like the a life force energy. So for me, it’s also a really
good gauge when I can be mindful to to notice it throughout daily life, I the
more constriction there is in the breath, you know, that it’s kind of a gauge of what else is going on, the more
ease and free flow and kind of more energizing on the inb breath and re
relaxing and releasing on the outreath. So in that sense, but yeah, what have you come to to learn and know about
this? Well, um, usually that depends on,
um, who I’m talking to. But if I just address the things that
you’ve brought up, I might suggest that, uh, depending on what is most obvious to
you. Um, for example, if you’re aware of tension in your shoulders, the more that
you’re clicking on the keys, um, take a moment to relax that just a
little bit. And secondly, uh, you might experiment
with slowing down how fast you type. One of the things that we do when we’re on
retreat is we slow everything down. And while I wouldn’t suggest that you do
um work on the computer the way we do walking meditation so slowly um even
just a little bit increases mindfulness and awareness of how what you’re doing
affects you and then you can begin to naturally it will
change over time. Um, some people uh set
timers every 10 minutes and they take a minute to take a break and just breathe.
Um, Dicknat Han, one of his practices every hour was to have a bell rung and
people just stopped whatever they were doing and just paid attention to their
breathing or just being. Uh, we become a culture of doing, not of
being. And so I would give you permission to
experiment. um try different things and see what works and what has a beneficial effect
uh and then go from there. And I I have a number of students who uh
um work on computers um some just inputting data, some are
more creative uh making websites. Um some are involved in AI, some are
involved in security um of the computer whole
system and process and each one finds something different that helps them
reconnect with being rather than it is and it I don’t think it’s cliche
Human Beings, Not Human Doings; Slowing Life for Mindfulness
to say yeah we are human beings not doing. That’s a it’s a really good point and just to echo the fact we think of
when you drive in a car how much we miss and then when we ride on a bicycle kind
of how we much we miss and even when we’re walking fast and then even slowing
down. I mean I was in the forest in Norway and I could just bend down and
look at this little section of the forest. It’s like this huge microclimate and world within itself and usually just
just walk right by it. You know, I could spend um you know the attention spans
lengthen with that’s another thing we’ve uh a lot of us I feel I could say that
uh our attention spans are so fragmented now due to different media and different
causes and conditions. But to just sit and find fascinating and enthralled all
the different tiny things that are going on. It’s one little patch of the forest, you know, and that can be brought to our
breathing and how yeah, every breath is there’s no breath, you know, there’s
similarities, but each breath is uniquely different. And it’s we’ve been
I think conditioned at least in the west as far as I know most of the time to have um at least with media that you
know you just think 20 years ago they used to show long shots like on movies and TV shows but now it’s just every
even a few times a second and just kind of dis disoriented and and fragmented in
our attention and really having a long attention span is is huge. You know, one
of the things I was try experimenting with too is is sitting in meditation, you know, and then then coming out and
then grabbing my device and then just paying attention to how long it takes before I lose mindfulness and just have
no awareness of, you know, just being completely absorbed into the screen, you know, and then realizing, okay, I sit
that down, come back to sitting, start over, and then maybe building a muscle
that way. So, that’s that’s one way I have experimented. Yeah. And and if you found success with it,
keep doing it. Uh it’s a really good point. You know, the Buddha talked about he was a pragmatist.
He it wasn’t all theory and philosophy, you know, skillful means that were in the
real world, not the theoretical things. So, yeah, I will definitely echo that. Yeah.
Right. You mentioned uh movies with uh that promote a short attention span. One
of my favorite movies is The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit. Uh what was his
I’m familiar with the title. I don’t know if I’ve seen it all, but please continue. Yeah. Um but one of the things that that I
found after watching it for like the fourth time was just how long the takes
were. a camera following someone for a long period of time. Um, even through
doorways and into other rooms and being
able to watch how people moved. um a contemporary person closer to our time
than the man in the gray flannel suit was John Cabbetti and he was known for his long long tape
that had an effect on who chose to watch his movies because some people didn’t have such long attentions.
That’s right. And um I I think of just why we’re on movies. I think of this Hitchcock um film um Rear Window where
it’s all just in one room, you know, and I I guess it had different angles, but
to be confined in that and what’s the old saying now I’m free associating here almost that um all of I forgot who said
it. Basically, the problems in the world come down to not being um able to sit
alone with yourself in a room, you know. Uh and so meditation makes that possible. And it it it’s it’s just
amazing how much uh kind of problems dissolve our solve themselves when we’re
when we’re able to do that. And of course uh then I think of a just ju just juosition on this last movie reference
here for a while for me uh is this movie called Cloverfield which I think it was
JJ Abrams and um now I’m going to have to edit this out because I hear I broke my own rule but anyway so here it is. um
um where I think the entire film was shot in one take. However, there’s a lot
of distracting things going on in it because it’s like an action movie and there’s there’s the kind of ridiculous
violence and stuff, but apparently I think it maybe it was an ode to the past where you do these really long takes.
But yeah, I I think I I look at some of these I put some of these older movies on sometimes and I even in myself I feel
that I’ve been conditioned where I I just get more disinterested. I mean I think the pace of life is faster now.
You know when I look back in my movie buff days in college and I was able to sit through a lot of old classics I
think a lot easier than I am today. So these are really interesting phenomenons
how we can you know do maybe due to a niche things change quite a bit but
there’s also these universal qualities that are still there I think that are timeless no matter what um area or arena
we’re in or what the culture we’re in and of course to bring it back to the
breath the breath I feel is one of those so no matter whether we like it or not as long as we’re this body is still
alive. There’s breath coming in, breath going out. It’s just a matter of how
tuned in we and how much we notice of it as well. Yeah.
Breath Nuances: Pauses, Uniqueness of Each Breath
And there’s a lot that happens in between the end of the inb breath and
the beginning of the outreath. Um but
well wait oh please. Yeah it’s easily said but it’s not an easy
practice. So let’s just e even just paying attention to the breath
Distractions & Thinking: Mind as Favorite Tool (Hammer/Screwdriver Metaphor)
is a challenge. Well I know for me it is too and it’s been my primary practice for the last couple years and still you know I’ve
touched into it in the prior years of practice too. So let’s let’s talk about kind of these more practical ones. Um
distractions, right? So concentration practice um if we’re using it for samata
practice of breath, the the effect of it is non-distraction. So we touched a little bit about real world
distractions. How do you deal with uh I think the the common one you talked about a little bit
earlier is kind of the wandering mind. Now I I talk to teachers who will say
you know well thinking isn’t the problem but it’s okay but and then they go into
kind of really vast detail of uh basically what it amounts to it is a
problem and then I’ve had teachers that just flat out say you know thinking is a hindrance.
So you know I I um but there is a place for thinking we we have to have it in our lives certain times right and it it
makes sense for critical thinking skills I think have a lot have gone away too.
So I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water. At the same time it’s not the tool for everything. I think at least in my experience I’ve got
kind of validation and praise for you know certain types of thinking and
mental activity. We look at some of the workplaces and how u people are expected
to be engaged with the mind all the time you know um and so like what is the
right relationship to this? How do you deal with this? Um maybe when in
meditation, outside of meditation, if there’s overthinking, but also just how we can uh befriend the mind, but also be
stern if we need to be with it or yeah, just in in general, anything you want to
think about uh say about this and especially in regards to to breath meditation, working with it with breath
meditation. Well, I I see the mind as a tool,
but not the only tool in the toolbox. And very often we get used to and end up
with a favorite tool. But that tool isn’t appropriate for
every situation. But to continue with the metaphor, the body
gets used to holding that particular tool in a certain way. So when we let go
of it, um it feels like something is missing
and we yearn for it and we want it back because we want to if it’s a hammer,
beat something. Um, if it’s a screwdriver, we want to turn something.
Um, and I don’t take either
position to be um, the only possibility.
Um, thoughts are a hindrance and bad and we
have to get rid of them. or uh one one student reminded me of something I said
the first session that he came to see me. Um he asked me about thoughts and I
said, “Well, just just think of them as like a cloud. Just let them pass
through.” Um and that that allowed him to develop
more concentration rather than uh clenching very strongly
to the object of the sensation of the breath. Um for him that would have been
antithetical to his his nature. Um and sometimes if
we pay attention to um thoughts that are racing along, it
only gives them more energy. And uh the Buddha even said that anytime
something becomes an obsession, um better to let go of it and turn the
mind to something wholesome or neutral. And then when the when the mind calms
down, uh then if a a thought arises, we can
look into it and see what it’s about. Be curious about it. Uh be investigative,
observe it. Uh then it ceases to be in control of us and we’re just observing
it. And everyone will have success with a different method or a different
attitude. So I think the most important thing is to find what works for you.
Working with Hindrances: 5 Hindrances + Antidotes
Really good points. Um so I guess some other things that will come up is hindrances. So we we’ve
kind of framed it maybe maybe not a hindrance, right? Um so I guess how do you work with the hindrances? Do you um
deal with those directly and or um yeah, how do you appro How do you approach the hindrances?
On occasion when a person is talking to me and it’s just so obvious that what is
coming up is they’re wanting something that doesn’t exist or isn’t in their
grasp. Uh I might briefly talk about the hindrance. Each hindrance has an
antidote. Uh uh the let’s see if I can remember all five. So there’s craving,
wanting, desiring something. There’s hatred, anger, judging, criticism.
Um there is uh restlessness.
um agitation, anxiety. Um
there is sloth and torper. Uh sloth is a slow mind, slow to be able
to notice what is being looked at. And torper
um torper is a dull mind uh not clear.
And uh the last one um what is the last one?
Doubt. Doubt. Yes, of course. Uh doubting uh
the Buddha’s teachings. Doubting one’s teacher. Uh doubting one’s own
experience. And doubt uh leads to a kind
of melees that can lead to um not being interested
in practicing. Because if we have what we call a really
good sit um quiet um and then the next sit is full of
thoughts. It’s easy to doubt that you know somebody is responsible for this or
the path itself uh is only for a few not
available to me. So um and and then my teacher used to
say we all have our pet hindrance for sure. Yeah. It reminds me of that old western dhamma saying that’s nothing
nothing like um nothing like a good sit to ruin the rest of the day. meaning
that you’re trying to get back to the one that it was a good set and oh I’d never live up to that again. Yeah. Yeah.
So that’s I always thought that was a good humorous way to look at it. Yeah.
Physical Breath Issues: Blocked Nostril, Switch Sides, No Forcing
Well um I guess one thing that comes up in um I might as well just ask about the
more as practical things as practice here. I’ve had um it’s an energetic
blockage I would say in in in my nose from time to time. So, sometimes it will flow and sometimes it will be blocked
up. And it’s usually the right side. And um I hear some people will say, well,
you know, normally uh if you’re paying attention, the one side of the nostrils will block up uh for a certain amount of
time, then will open up in the other one to kind of give the other one a rest. Right? Because I I hear yogis say that.
Um then other people don’t notice it or this doesn’t happen to them. But what I’ve noticed, it’s usually just the
right nostril for me. And I I’ve had my nose broken twice back in the day with baseballs. So, um yeah. How do you Is
there And then when I lay on my left side, it tends to open up a little bit, but how do you work with like physical
things other than just saying, “Well, choose a different meditation object.” Is there still a way to work with the breath? Um or just maybe a m anything
you have to to offer around working with that, I guess. Well, um just taking your difficulty
as a subject of conversation and connection between us. You know, if the
right nostril uh doesn’t allow air to flow,
uh there’s no point in frustrating yourself trying to make it flow through
that. So, if it does come through the left left nostril, pay attention to that.
It’s easier said than done, right? Um so so f the first step is catching that and
usually that’s really what it takes because then I can see in my own experience oh this is not helpful you know I’m being in in conflict and
there’s agitation and then there’s uh adversion and yeah and when we can’t see
that we can’t see that then there’s really no hope that’s why mindfulness is so important as soon as I can see that and then say wait a second what are you
doing here Josh or you know this is not helpful you know you’re going to be in conflict with that you you’re trying to
force something the way you want it and it’s just not working and you’re still like ramming your head against the wall.
I mean that’s kind of like the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So yeah, the first step is
obviously seeing that and then the the Brahma vahara qualities of you know bringing some compassion to that and
kindness to that too because yeah and then and then when I remember that sometimes the body will and the
whatever’s going on there will relax enough and then the the air starts flowing around again. So yeah, thank you
for that helpful reminder. I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, Jacqu, I think um we
Wrap-Up: Contact Jacques, Final Breath Advice & Experimentation
we’ve covered some good ground here today. I appreciate you coming on. I want to um see if there’s anything else
around the breath you’d like to talk about and meditation in general before we start wrapping up here. Um yeah, and
then and then while we do um while we wrap up here, maybe if you’re if tell
folks if you who is listening if they’re in your area, if they want to contact
you, if you’re still taking on students, if you want to um um take on any new
students, if you’re if you’re open to that and I don’t know if you want to give your contact information or you
just want if if people are if you’re interested in in um having people reach out to you. I’m totally okay with them
going through me first and filtering that if you if you don’t want to give out any kind of contact information or
anything like that. It’s entirely up to you. And then you can leave um with a message of what you’d like to to take uh
take folks out on today. I do have one or two spots that are
available. Um although I’ll be going on retreat in
2 weeks, just for two weeks. Um and then uh the middle of December through the
middle of January, I’ll be out of the country. Um but if someone wants to get
in touch with me, uh my text number is 4407141476.
Um I usually don’t answer my phone. email address is jr.
M as in Mary, I n as in Nancy, ka.com.
And something to go out with is uh I’m always amazed at uh
how practical so much of what the Buddha taught uh
applies 2500 years later. And I especially enjoy listening to his
conversations with just one other person, something to go out on. The breath is always there. If you’re not
breathing, you don’t have to worry about it. So the the breath is always there to
notice. But um if you’re driving, don’t focus on the breath. Focus on what’s in
front of you. If you’re walking doesn’t mean the breath is the best
object for that particular activity. Um I find the soles of my feet touching the
earth to be good for me. So uh and be
free to experiment. Find out what works for you. Well, lovely Jang, thank you so much for doing this and I’m so glad you
I got a chance to meet you and come on and and sharing your your practical insights and wisdom and just your your
state of being and and presence um and what a deep one it is and I really appreciate that. And so may all beings
Closing Blessing: Sila, Samadhi, Paññā for All Beings
everywhere out there come to cultivate uh optimal sila samati and pa for
yourself and for others and for all beings everywhere. May all beings everywhere realize awakening and be
free. Thank you, Josh. You’re welcome. Bye now.
Integrating Presence 