Before I toss this over to AI to summarize / describe our conversation I want to take back that I said Tina “completed the grueling Samatha phase” which of course is anything but grueling. In fact, it is actually beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful in the end. I was reaching for, and came up short for something to describe the high level of innercraft often required to complete such an extensive meditative training that includes attaining the four form jhanas and four formless jhanas under strict qualifying criteria for long durations and doing so for the 40 traditional meditation objects from the Visuddhimagga (to the extent of jhana they allow for) plus jhanic mastery which involves attainment at will, prolonging the state, emerging at will, reviewing the jhāna accurately, and being able to shift between jhānas fluidly
There’s also quite a surprisingly refreshing emphasis towards the end on teacher and community scandal, solutions, ethics, prevention, safeguards, and accountability
OK, Ai now takes the reins:
Tina Rasmussen is a meditation teacher and author with deep experience in both the Theravāda and Dzogchen traditions. Ordained as a Buddhist nun by Pa Auk Sayadaw, she emphasizes practical and accessible pathways to deep states of meditative absorption (jhana) and awakening.
🧘♀️ Topics Discussed:
- Background and Early Path:
Tina shares her transition from spiritual seeking to formal Buddhist practice, including her early influences and ordination in Burma. - The Jhana Journey:
A deep dive into Tina’s jhana training under Pa Auk Sayadaw, what distinguishes her approach, and how she supports modern practitioners engaging with these deep states. - Theravāda and Dzogchen:
Exploration of integrating two seemingly distinct traditions: the focused absorptions of Theravāda and the open awareness of Dzogchen. Tina speaks on how these methods can complement rather than contradict. - Dealing with Subtle Attachments:
Insight into how even refined meditative experiences can lead to subtle clinging—and how awareness practices help unwind them. - How to Choose Practices Wisely:
Practical advice on selecting practices based on one’s temperament and developmental stage on the path. - Meditation and Trauma Sensitivity:
Tina speaks on navigating deep meditation as a trauma survivor or working with students with trauma, and the role of embodiment. - Subtle Energies and the Body:
Observations about somatic intelligence, subtle energy movements, and their role in meditative development. - Non-Linear Awakening:
Tina describes the nuanced, non-hierarchical nature of awakening, and how deep states don’t necessarily equate to realization. - Common Misconceptions:
Tina challenges assumptions about jhana as escapism, or Dzogchen as bypassing, and clarifies their roles in deep insight and transformation. - Mentorship and Teaching Style:
How Tina works with students, what she emphasizes in transmission, and how she remains grounded and accessible.
🔗 Resources & Mentions:
- Tina Rasmussen’s website: https://www.luminousmindsangha.com and https://www.inner-craft.com/teachers/tina-rasmussen/
- Her book: Practicing the Jhanas
- Mention of Pa Auk Sayadaw and Dzogchen lineage connections
- Insight Timer profile: https://insighttimer.com/tinarasmussen
Audio: Depth, Integration, and Navigating Spiritual Terrain: In Conversation With Tina Rasmussen
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
wholeness Welcome This is Josh Tippold Integrating Presence and today it’s my
uh honor um privilege and pleasure to have Tina Rasmusen join me Tina how’s it
going today I’m doing well Josh Yeah good to be with you Well thanks so much
for joining Probably most everybody listening to this will already be familiar with Tina but just sticking to
my format here Who is Tina Rasmus and and what kind of work does she do
I love the way you phrase that question Well I could give you know the the ultimate answer Who is Tina Rasmosson
Which is the same answer for everybody which is I could say the ground of being or a
manifestation of the ground of being you know sort of at the most ultimate level
Um at the human level uh I’m a dharma teacher and I feel really grateful to to
have been a dharma teacher for almost 20 years now And um what kind of work do I
do Well I really my my ultimate um calling is to help people awaken to
their deeper nature to know what they are beyond the body and the personality
of wealth at the same time honoring the human part you know I really um big part
of my teaching has been in my own practice really it comes I teach really my own practice that’s you know so
there’s a lot of um comfort and integration in that you know and it just so happens that there are some other
people who resonate with that you know so it’s a win for all of us but um yeah
I I really feel that our our era is the time when with the tools of psychology
and trauma therapy and a lot of the embodiment methodologies that we have really just come into recently combined
with the ancient ones that were have been so effective to live as a regular
human from our deeper nature that is uh you know ultimately a mystery but that
we can know through direct experience So that’s my calling is to help people
um come to know that and and live from that more and more Well beautiful Uh
obviously that’s so needed and we’re anybody probably listening to this is is totally on board with that too I just to
be a little light-hearted here when people ask you like at the grocery store you know who are you How you doing You
probably usually don’t say um in manifestation of the ground of being though right Yeah
I don’t say that I don’t say that I remember one time long years ago when I was first um practicing meditation and
coming into the dharma I remember one time Jack Kornfield said that um he was on when he was on planes and people
would ask him what he would do He said “Oh I’m a sales.” [Laughter]
I don’t say that but you know I thought that was kind of a humorous answer I usually you know I would tell people
that I’m a spiritual teacher and um and I help people suffer less and be
happy in their lives and to you know for those who are curious about the mystery
beyond the human experience I can help them explore that you know so even
somebody who has zero interest they know there’s you know is there something beyond this is there not something
beyond this everybody you know there it’s a question most people ask and feel they have an answer
to so there are ways to make it in in common language you know and at at a
human level I’ve had a supernormal life you know um I for years I worked in the
business world as an executive coach and um organizational development consulting
working with humanistic business leaders so you know I had to function at a super high level working with executives who
had you know five or 10 thousand people reporting up to them So I had to be as normal as and high functioning you know
as you could possibly be And I was doing that while I was practicing the whole time you know And um at some point I I
mean I never set out to be a dharma teacher It just happened organically I was in a a line of work that I love that
I felt was a calling And um when I did the retrieve with Paka by the time I left the retreat people around the world
already knew about it you know So people just started coming and wanting help And
I already had a full-time job but I I wanted to give back to Buddhism and to the Dharma So that’s really how it all
started And you know it just hasn’t stopped for 20 years So now I’m full-time Dharma teacher You know it’s
been a gradual process But you know I I think part of what uh I feel is part of
my my dharma in this life is to help people who are householders who have
full-time jobs and mortgages and kids and relationships and it’s messy and you know we have to deal with living but
also can we have a deep practice while we’re living as a householder And I
think we can I work with people every single day who are doing that and it’s
it’s an exciting possibility to really integrate the two where we don’t have to
go behind the monastery walls in order to do that Not that that isn’t a valid option It is but you know there are a
lot more of us now who are out in the world who are feeling called to that So
that I mean that was what happened for me and then when the whole teaching just evolved on its own that really became
the calling is to help people who are trying to do the same thing So um you
know very and like who am I as a person you know I’ve had all the normal things I’ve been married twice um so you know
been through the ups and downs of all of that I was a steparent for a total of 21 years I worked you know up until last
year I still had one client left in the business world So you know I’ve yet to be normal and yet be doing these really
deep you know I also did a year-long solo retreat in the middle of that And I’m you know I’m not from a wealthy
family so I’ve had to manage the money around doing things something like a year-long solo retreat at the age of 40
And um and how do we integrate If somebody really starts understanding more about the deeper aspects of
practice it affects your perception of reality What do you do with that How do you live from that So that’s a lot of
what I help people with There’s so much here to to dive into Um
and thank you for that Uh well yeah for one thing I would say the the the dharma
is it’s a good sales job to be in you know because most people are interested
in ending stress you know and yeah the deeper nature of life like you said even
people that are so distracted by everyday life at some point you know either through even even a movie or a
casual conversation or some kind of moment in their life have pretty much all considered this you know it’s it’s
not easy being human you know it’s it’s one of the most uh uh challenging
difficult things that you know that we’re we’re told about Um I want to ask
and then we have the whole dynamic of you know everyday life and how deep and
profound in a spiritual practice it can be and at the same time how that can be
interwoven into all aspects of mundane existence in life too And we have the
reference that those of us who have a deeper practice interested in this we have these reference points of how
sometimes bizarre and uh foreign and far
away from mundane reality in the base program or you know um just the the
consensus reality And at the same time that we’re thrown into that and we still
have to be in that and we can just be as plain as dirt too You know even with
those of us that have this this practice we look at like um Ajan Cha’s teaching he was really down to earth and and
really in this way I I love the whole spectrum of what’s possible here and the
integration you mentioned I want to just ask about you got started with meditation great fortune to have started
really really early could for those not familiar with that could you I think that’s could be quite relevant here how
you got into my bio that I left out there but yeah I I just again is it was
it good karma was it good fortune was it an accident who knows but at the age of
13 at the Methodist church that my family went to outside of Chicago Illinois in the US Um we had a family
day My parents were off you know doing who knows what And I went into the
chapel I just wandered in there and there was somebody My story now is that it was a hippie You know this would have
been 1976 when this happened And I wandered in there and and he my story is that he
went to Asia somewhere and had come back and was sharing what he knew you know it was a Methodist church so fairly you
know liberal and open And I just listened to what he was doing and I started doing it It was basically a
mindful a body scanning kind of thing Um and uh and I just started doing it at
night you know it was helpful It was helpful It’s stressful being a teenager sometimes And I just started doing it
without really knowing a lot My parents were very open to these kinds of things and I just it was practical and so yeah
I started at the age of 13 So at the age of 40 I became a nun and
shaved my head and was in robes So you know that was another part that I left out But yeah it was it was really for me
just a practical thing And I think now we’re seeing with all the neuroscience research you know the thousands of
studies that it helps people whether they’re Buddhist not Buddhist doesn’t matter You don’t have to believe
anything If you just do it from a practical standpoint you will suffer
less Your life will get better Period I mean the the the studies are just it’s
unequivocally um true that you will feel better in
your life Yeah it it’s pretty much a consensus
there for sure too because I don’t encounter too many people that would argue with that on any level really
Studies there’s just you know I was studied by Yale and I mean there’s studies there’s hundreds of studies
every years not only for the psychological benefits but for the physical health benefits I worked for a
health care organization for 16 years and they were prescribing this to people with certain conditions not because they
believed in it because of evidence-based practice That’s all they cared about
People survived if they did it more than if they didn’t do it for certain things So um sure You know it’s it’s exciting
to see we have the science behind it now and the research that we didn’t have before So uh I want want to get into the
the PA stuff because that’s what’s um and I’ll explain that in a little bit but since you touched on this now I
really wanted to to to get into this notion of um the technology side Now
uh for me on one hand yes of course I’m totally in on it in the sense that there
is just some people in the world that there will even ignore their own experience um uh to the fact that they
have to have verified scientific evidence right And that it has to be in
like a institution or it has to be measured by machines and things and that’s all good and we we need this more
and more for those types of people who have to have that otherwise they won’t get involved So in that sense I’m
totally on board with it Um on the on the other hand um you know I if if if I
can a little bit we hear more and more about um oh I
don’t know like I don’t want to get like political or anything but like surveillance and things like this you
know like people being hooked up to machines and studied and then collecting
data basically Um now I I’m sure that most people that that do this type of
studying have all the best intentions in mind you know and a lot of this stuff is kind of rolled out as as benefit but
then uh some of it becomes normalized and then they use it for for other means I guess what I’m getting at here is um
do you see any downsides at at all to this and um through the research on
medicine Yeah Yeah But not necessarily that Yeah It
just goes into this notion that um there there’s some folks out there that want
to like um maybe quantify everything right That like want to um measure
everything with machines and um and then collect data amass data but you know
maybe not use it for beneficial means potentially Okay I’m just going into
maybe ethical things down the road and maybe I’m playing devil’s advocate here a little bit but basically being able to
ma uh oh I don’t know where should I go with this
Um yeah ba basically maybe using it to predict predict people’s behaviors in
order to potential control and serve up advertisements Um yeah
So I don’t know that that’s one of the potential you know Sure Yeah
There’s a couple places where I I mean I didn’t need that to be into the practice
I was doing it before they all came available But you know there have been I think a lot of really exciting
discoveries from the neuroscience research So I you know overall I would say I’m still in favor of it But the
couple of downsides I see one of them is like I’ve been asked to be inum a number of studies I’ve declined even by
organizations like Harvard because I felt that they weren’t actually studying what they said they were studying that
the whoever was designing it was using um inaccurate they they
weren’t using the spiritual technologies and and naming them correctly they were
using the wrong names for certain things and I didn’t want to be in a study that endorsed the inaccurate what I felt was
an inaccurate study I mean the intentions I think are good I I don’t have any question about the intentions
there but I felt that they weren’t actually studying what they said they were studying and I I didn’t want to
somehow endorse that And this is we’re talking Harvard you know So um so that
is one problem is that you know in an effort to kind of because some things
are hard to study because you can’t respond while it’s happening and so on
You know a lot of these things I mean these were done in caves by people who weren’t talking to anyone for weeks or
months at a time and now you’re in a lab you’re supposed to produce it in five minutes so that it can be studied and then press a button when it’s happening
you know So in an effort to make it more studyable they’re actually not studying the thing they say they’re studying in
my opinion Some of them not not all but so that’s one downside is that then if these studies happen they get published
and now all of a sudden this is a fact and it’s not even an accurate study in my opinion you know So that’s one
downside And people reading it if you haven’t had these experiences or don’t know the intricacies of it how would you
know You know you just read it and think it was accurate you know there would be no way to know that without actually
having experienced these things So that’s one downside is that now you’ve got scientific precedent for things that
aren’t accurate you know and and only a few people know enough to know that you
know So that’s that’s one thing It’s like say you’re study you can’t study something in women because whatever So
you study it in men and now you have all these conclusions that apply to women I mean some of the you know so that’s to
me kind of what’s happening with some of the studies and then the other thing is that it’s a reductionistic that
everything’s based on on material on the physical realm and I believe that some
we can measure but I believe there’s still things that we can’t we don’t have scientific instruments that are
sensitive enough to measure consciousness beyond the body and I believe that at some point hopefully we
will have that but I don’t I think consciousness is fundamental and the body is more like a radio It’s like
what’s first the radio or the radio signal you know and you could say that
without the signal why even have a radio That’s to me what conscious consciousness is more fundamental than
the physical So to to reduce it to say it’s all based only on physical matter I
think is is backwards Absolutely And I’m totally in agreement with that And and that’s one of the things you know this
um materialistic reductionist view of consciousness I just think is is way off
and it will never be uh kind of um solved that way I don’t feel right now
anyway from what I know I mean we look at the Abid Dhama we look at the Vudi Maga and some of these really deep uh
practitioners that have uh have so much mapped out and so much they see and know
for themselves like so long ago and it’s it’s continuing to this day and it just
seems like a lot of the consciousness research is barking up the right tree There’s a lot of good consciousness
research going on too and I applaud you for the uh the wisdom and in identifying
the structure of the study and turning it down due to um what seems to be a
flawed structure in the study to begin with So you’re right and uh that’s so
super responsible and needed for these things because we don’t want to be putting a lot of um heirs in the data in
science that’s misrepresentative too So I think the the best thing is not even to be involved in something that’s
fundamentally flawed from the get-go it seems like So yeah these are really important uh points that you make Um I
won’t go into the more far out things with this Um so it’s I want to get into
the the the PA stuff now if we may Um so when I first I I think probably
listening to Dharma Seed years and years ago and I would just listen to hours and hours of Dharma talks and I’m sure it
was one of yours or and when Gil Frondale started talking about um you
know Janna and so first thing I have is why has this been so long kind of not
taught in the west I know I hear some teachers explanation but I want to hear it from you like uh where in in the Pak
tradition you can’t even really get into the vaposa track until you either have
tried samata right for a while or they you’re deemed seemed to go the dry insight route Uh but they as as far as I
know they they try to get everybody to do um at least start off with the samata
route in that in that but like we have people jump into vapasa Yeah That so
really the the why question is why Well wait a second Everybody doing it the way
the Buddha did it Are you saying that Buddha started with Sam first Is that what you’re is that what you’re saying Yeah of course Yeah We before he left he
left his two teachers right because he had already accomplished all that when he taught he started people with samata
when he taught not only as his own that’s what he did so this is what the Buddha did for a long time so why not in
the west why why was it so kept so in the west part of it I mean there are a few reasons and I I do talk about this
in my talk sometimes um one is that you
know back in the day of the Buddha There were like you can see this in the in the sutas there were samata yogis there were
vaposa yogis only and then the Buddha felt it was best to be both So there
were people who just couldn’t couldn’t do samata They didn’t have the concentration level And and now that
I’ve been teaching it 18 years I I feel that there’s a truth there that maybe
we’ll find out why one day within neuroscience why some people have the capacity and others who may still have a
lot of spiritual capacity for momentary concentration um don’t have the concentration faculty
for you know the ne the higher level of absorption concentration I don’t know
why you know I mean but I have found the same thing to be true as what was true in the day of the Buddha you know and
fortunately we have multiple routes to the mountaintop so one doesn’t have to
have that to get to the mountaintop but if I do agree with Pak that if even if
one doesn’t like I’ve had 30 40 year vaposa practitioners come to my retreat whether they have access to the higher
levels of concentration or not they their practice improves when
they do samata period So you know I agree with the Buddha that
and with Pawak that everybody should do it because it it it refineses the mind stream It’s a purification of mind that
whether one can attain Janna or not it’s still super beneficial and it changes
your life So I mean to me I I I don’t know So why
didn’t they Well in the old days um that was one reason because some people couldn’t do it because there’s a few
sutas where you just go straight to vapos doing the dry insight They pulled that out of the vast sea of samatus
sutas They pulled this out you know we’re Americans take the shortcut you know So and also um there’s other
reasons that are more important than a in Asia than they are here But there’s what’s called the supernormal powers
which in the day of the Buddha they needed these things because they were out in jungles with wild animals and ma
you know murderers and thieves and stuff and they had to be able to protect themselves and the way that one
cultivates that is through the Janna So they felt that people should only be doing that after they’d attain the first
stage of awakening So they all had it They were just saving it for people after they’d attained the first stage of
awakening But in the Thai forest tradition they they used it but didn’t talk about it
until you’d gotten far enough along And even in the Mahasi sideel lineage where
they kind of do a lot of Janna bashing they still taught people it after they had re attained stream entry So they
were saving it They didn’t want people to abuse the supernormal powers So I I
you know I can respect that I think it’s still like aren’t we Buddhists Aren’t we
supposed to do what the Buddha taught So to me that’s really the big question is
what’s with that you know and and this is so Janna in itself is really
controversial and I put a moratorium on me talking about it solo but I love talking to practitioners and teachers
about it because then I can really dive in here You know we’ve got um so where
do we start And nimita even um I guess one of the maybe we ought to make a
distinction in Janna here A lot of people refer to like a a Suta Janna and a Vudi Maga Janna right You don’t seem
like our deeper nature cares what book we’ve read I mean do we really think that the
ultimate reality is basing it They have a little gate there and says people who’ve read sutas go here People who’ve
read the good point No what they’re what they none of those practices give the
three stages of concentration They’re talking about access concentration M if you look at how they describe it if you
look at what happen was happening that sutanas are access concentration okay
not absorption none of those teachers teach the three levels so why why aren’t
they teaching the three levels that are part of Buddhism you know because they have no justification for what they’re
saying is Janna but is actually access concentration yes and that’s what I want to touch on too what I what some
teachers would consider Janna if you go in the Pac tradition that’s not even not even access concentration yet you know
it’s just PT rising when PT I used to get PT and doing vaposa all the time
all the time so and so and so with with that it’s like
um yeah but then you have like some in the Typhorus tradition that that
completely and my my my intent here is not to divide it’s just kind of to lay things out on on the table and look at
them and they from what I understand the Ty force tradition doesn’t put a big emphasis on like uh the vassudi maga and
the commentaries it’s they kind of blow it off pretty much even though it’s included in some of the the writings and
stuff but we don’t as far as I know we don’t even have a full translation of the commentaries in English so to me
it’s a little premature at least for myself to blow off the commentaries when we don’t even have in English to read to
to blow off with with with these translation technologies and uh you know the chat bots and stuff being able to
translate I think it won’t be very long now and there’ll be full translations of these But what I get into here is um now
from what I understand Tina in your practice you were the first teacher uh approved by Pacidal to Westerner first
westerner you and Steven Snyder to to teach in the PAC lineage right and from my understanding you completed the the
grueling samata phase uh in mastery right and u there’s different masteries
of the Janna and I just wanted to to say that I learned about from another POG teacher that to to start the
preliminaries to the psychic powers you’re talking about You have to have that plus I think there’s like 13
different steps of going beyond the regular standard uh johnic mastery where
you have to even be more involved with with cycling through and going in different orders and things with the
Jonas than just the five masteries I maybe I can I can show you that document later or whatever but that’s just the
preliminary work There’s supernormal powers You have to be able to jump You
have to first have attained all eight Janna up to the level of mastery Yes And then the five masteries like you
have to be able to enter at will uh like switch rapidly set a time for emerging
right And then which ones am I missing here Yeah there’s the having the Janna
rise at will having being able to set a time of how long one will remain in
Janna and leave There’s um the uh that might be enter and leave there
There’s the um seeing what Janna you’re in at leaving reading being able to see
what’s called the banga the heart It’s like you’re you’re seeing your mind moments Uh and I can’t remember the
other one seeing what what what um Jonaf factors the factors after Yeah on the
factors and then I can’t remember and you I think you one of what this this list goes even into like jumping through
you know not an order and reverse order and forward order and emerging and going back Yeah It it’s just
so normal powers Yeah Yes Exactly Totally do It’s totally doable though if
one really I mean if if I if that had been my aspiration I could have done
that when I was doing uh the Pac you know retreat Let’s just talk about that
too for now because I mean a lot of Americans would think well that’s that’s that’s nonsense you know that’s
superheroes men in tights right and then I have right you know this kind of thing
you know they just laugh at you know we’re conditioned to laugh at these things and you know that’s for you know
comic books and stuff but then you have people in Asia it’s just like well no big deal you know um I don’t think it’s
real yeah well not not just think you know I I’ve even practice with the group even part of the the Pac once you get
past the samata stage and start discerning ultimate uh materiality ultimate mentality which is required
before the dependent origination thing is just so vast and so profound one of
the reasons I went into this because most of the other kind of um terravada stuff that I’ve been exposed to for
years I would say you know it’s it’s it’s fairly accessible I understand it I’ve practiced with it but when I get
into this I haven’t even had the nimmita come up yet you know So I’m so at the
beginning level of that and and these are these are yogis that are part of the discerning ultimate materiality
mentality are going into past lives and discerning you know through all the different so for people that not
familiar with this I won’t go into this now but this is it’s just it’s not even considered a big deal to be able I mean
it’s just another step along all this part of the vapa because potential
future lives yeah right it’s what the Buddha did I mean if we’re going to if we’re using the Buddha as our role model
that is what he did so Pauok is really looking at what did the Buddha do and let’s do that with the addition of the
um abidama with the um really analyze not only perceiving which I got to the very
end of the samata where I did have the rupacolapas experience which is
incredible but then you analyze that yes each one has like seven or eight
different characteristics in But then it it goes way into just you
know I materiality uh you know all these different nuances and that’s just the ultimate materiality Then you go into
ultimate mentality the past lives and the future lives Yeah It’s extensive It’s really
extensive But you know you are I mean it is the matrix You are
seeing like even just my experience of seeing ultimate materiality like in the
wisdom eye it changes your view of materiality that really is agrees with
science I mean you’re seeing subatomic particles That’s what’s happening And we all believe I mean most people believe
yes that’s a thing in science that there are subatomic particles But when you see
that everything is that and your your own body is that it starts to um change
your perception of reality in a way that’s different than just knowing about the science when you’re actually
perceiving it Exactly And actually all of my donhama practice is pretty much a
conception conceptuality you know on a conceptual level because I haven’t discerned ultimate materiality for
myself you know until I can see and know that for myself in a way you know yeah
it’s a consensus reality I’m experiencing but in a way it’s not completely truthful because I’m not
seeing the ultimate nature of the m materiality mentality yet So in a way my
understanding wisdom and study and practice I have is is basically on a conceptual level and so that is a
driving force for for looking into for me to to to practice this this path as
as of now And you know some people might say that’s excessive and you don’t really need to go that indepth and you
know the Buddha said you know to like basically to know and let go but at what level and what comprehension and
exhaustion and totality do we need to know uh you know duka ana nata before um in
order to let go and I I don’t have a simple answer to that you know so well I
mean this is part of Like when I give talks about the three characteristics that you just mentioned of reality that
you know when we see into the ultimate nature that’s when liberation happens most of the time people are talking
about it at a relative level They’re not really seeing what is the liberating
insight and the liberating insight is seeing ultimate materiality and
mentality Not just seeing yes I’m going to die and so everything’s impermanent I mean that’s helpful too but it’s not
liberative So so yeah that’s I mean that’s really what Pak was going for and I I do
believe that the other like the more the tie the what’s taught at like Spirit
Rock IMS I believe that the vaposa there can lead people to see ultimate
materiality um and mentality in maybe not at the level of analysis that PWA
does but at a level that’s liberating So you know that’s to me it’s sort of like
okay what’s what is actually needed for awakening that’s what I care about what is needed for awakening and um at least
first stage now when you start getting to the higher stages then maybe more
levels of of direct experience of these things really is needed to be able to let go So let’s define that too because
you know we we we throw these terms around and different teachers have different explanations you know we’ve
got we’ve got mindfulness we’ve got awareness we’ve got attention you know um these are really uh and we’ve got
consciousness Well that’s a huge one too So but then then we’ve got awakening you know a liberation and um uh
enlightenment So these let’s just I guess stick to these three terms Is there any difference in these or how
would you kind of define or describe them And then you’re talking about first stage Are you talking about stream entry here or Yeah Okay Yeah Well different
teachers you know I was my first interview I ever did was with Conscious TV and when I met the the interviewers
in England they um I had all these questions for them which is what have you learned interviewing 300 people on
the path to awakening And they said there’s no agreement about awakening So now I’m teaching my what is awakening
program It’s like the most popular thing where I’m giving the lay of the land I’m not saying like this is the answer but
I’m saying here’s how it’s seen in different traditions and so on I like the terraoden for stage model because I
think it’s the most it’s the easiest to understand and it’s like accurate enough to use at a practical level especially
stream entry for sure Everybody can kind of identify with what that could possibly be what that would be Yeah So
that’s where Oh shoot do I have a piece of paper Yeah So let me do my little demonstration here This is one of the
things I saw that I really got in with my own awakening process It was like oh
my gosh okay so this is how we normally see reality Like I’m here you’re here
the viewers here their computers here and they all are separate which from
this view is not false But if I take this paper away which is like the veils
of the ego self there’s something deeper here There’s a deeper reality that’s
more fundamental that doesn’t invalidate this But like down
here I can still feel the finger but is it separate from this finger No So
there’s where does it start and end too Exactly Right And if this goes away this is still here you know So that’s what
happens with awakening is our consciousness is here because it’s not bound by the body That’s the what the
Buddha was really pointing to And mo almost all traditions in one way or another are pointing to even the
theistic mer you know becoming one with God This it’s pointing to the non-separation either through unity or
emptiness So awakening is like what happens is we have tastes of this and
then it’s like I’m having an awakening So the identity is still with the body
and with the the personality the the ego self but at some point the actual
identity shifts to down here and there’s no longer a belief that
this is ultimate It doesn’t invalidate that it’s there but it’s not This is
more fundamental What we are that is beyond the body and the personality is more fundamental And it’s also
manifesting everything else that we see you know So awakening is that shift of
identity And there’s so much peace in that I mean even though it’s just the first stage and there’s still a lot of
personality material left So that to me is awakening is awakening to this deeper
mystery of the human experience that is the potential for for all of us you know
and that’s really where there’s some freedom and the reduction in suffering is really what the Buddha you know cared
a lot about and so liberation so awakening is realiz so
realization is realizing our deeper nature different a lot of different
things about our deeper nature and different traditions define that differently like terraoden Buddhism has
the three characteristics that you mentioned that’s one of the keys and what’s called sessation is important in
terraoden but in other traditions sessation isn’t as important and other things are more important so they all
kind of come at it differently and you can see why I mean they’re good reasons everyone’s pointing to a truth but those
are different parts of the elephant you know but they all what they all have in common is the non-separation and the
non-duality where that sense of the separation that we see here becomes
nonseeparation because we know a deeper truth here So that is what they all have
in common Um so so realization is realizing these things about our deeper
nature Liberation is being freed from our personality material and identification with the ego self and the
body as ultimate So that’s what liberation is And then
enlightenment So and then actualization is living from that where we’re actually
functioning from it off the cushion where it isn’t just like here is my half hour and then here’s all the rest of my
life That’s totally disconnected you know And then enlightenment is getting all the way to the fourth stage which is
very very rare in my opinion It’s not it’s extremely uncommon you know there
might be only a small number of people on the planet right now who are at that at that level um but the four stages in
the terrain you know by the time you get to second stage there’s really a lot less suffering
you know that’s really again that’s to me the potential is because we know
there’s some there’s a bigger mystery that we know in our own experience and
it’s the most real thing you’ve ever experienced If you’ve experienced that and there’s a peace in it So even at the
point of death you know it’s like there’s a trust there’s a trust
that there’s something more real and more fundamental that goes beyond the arising and passing
of of the body or of this life or of others lives or of the things we like
and dislike you know all that they’re all waves on the surface of the ocean And if you’re a scuba diver down below
you look up you you know you see it you see all the turbulence like what we’re having now in the world And it’s it’s
sad that that there is so much pain and suffering Um and there’s also a deeper
reality that is more fundamental than that That when we know that there’s a piece and there’s a sense of
um you know acceptance that we can’t change these things You know we can
change some things but we can’t change the nature of what’s going on Most of
what affects us we can’t do anything about you know that’s the yeah that’s a
characteristic of existence I mean there’s inherent dooka in every single uh conditioned phenomena you know um
what is yeah and the good news is though what what is subject to arise is subject to perish too so and one of the most
profound meditations is on death as well um so there is a kind of a paradox here
that uh that you know what you’re talking about is beyond the body not limited to the body and yet The Buddha
put great emphasis on mindfulness of the body So do you how do you resolve this paradox or what do you what do you say
about this And you know you’ve mentioned embodiment before too and uh yeah I
think that’s yeah yeah well everything is an emanation of the grounded being including the body So if we know
anything deeply at the ultimate level we will know ultimate reality including the
body So I mean the body is a great thing to be in touch with This is part of the
you know in open monitoring category practice with papasa we spend a lot of time on body awareness and when we can
know things arising and passing vaposa is really focused on ina on the impermanence of the arising and passing
of phenomena So when we see that it’s arising and passing constantly like when
our concentration it has to get up to a high level of access concentration in vaposa to really see that the minute
detail First of all we see that I’m not making this happen There’s no me making it happen because if I if I could then I
could make it stop So like right now I dare any of the listeners make all the phenomena stop right now You know you
can’t make it stop So if you’re not if you can’t make it stop you’re not causing it There’s a greater mystery
that is causing the everything And that’s when the me can let go The me can
let go And then um anata the no self the sense of no self that is the
psychological construct I mean I work a lot with the psychological because that helps us understand how the psyche the
nuts and bolts of how the psyche gets um how it develops You know that’s what we
have We have psychology So we’ve learned so much in the last hundred years the Buddha didn’t have You know he did a
great job with Buddha psychology but it’s pretty rudimentary compared to what we have now to understand the psyche So
when we see that it’s an internal um construction that’s needed for
self-reflective consciousness we can see that that’s what it is and it’s not really ultimately what we are There’s a
space from it So that’s in seeing the body and seeing the arising and passing of phenomena say in noticing the body
sensations and you know the the body door of the four foundations of mindfulness That’s one way of of
noticing um the arising and passing you know but I think really the four all
four foundations of mindfulness are really required for to me for liberation because we can say okay I’m not the body
but I’m still my consciousness so we have to work with that too you know yeah I asked a John
such one time and some some other teachers you know why is this experience
like tethered to a body why is our experience not like tethered to a rock on Mars you know it’s it’s part of the
human condition or human experience that it is Yes people can leave quote unquote
leave their body temporarily or lose awareness of it but ultimately uh is
until their last half breath there you know there’s an experience of a body um
you know from time to time So yeah Um but what I what I wanted scientific
answer to that Okay Okay This is the physical realm We’re in the space-time continuum We have to have a location
And the Buddha and Ananda weren’t having the same experience So there’s an individual consciousness It doesn’t have
to be separate It’s more like a current in the ocean not a wave Where a current
I mean the currents run our whole climate just like the air you know the jetream They’re not separate but they’re
distinct That’s what the individual consciousness is And it gets attached to a body because to be in the physical
realm we have to have a location in time and space Otherwise we can’t have a human experience So yeah that’s right
But you know plants I guess are are in time and space yet they don’t have the same type of consciousness at least is
in the terravada view is like they’re not consciously aware in the same way that are they don’t have self-reflective
consciousness they don’t have the ego self So that’s how the human we might find that whales and some other animals
have self-reflective consciousness at some point but that’s what we have that’s how we can know our deeper nature
A plant can’t know its deeper nature but we can But there has to be the ego self as a scaffolding to have the
self-reflection and then that scaffolding can come down with awakening Let’s um let’s jump into this too
because I know Steven Snyder um who you’re co-author in practicing with the Jas That’s kind of how I um came to to
know your work a little bit better um you know in a book form He’s really into
um the working with personality material in awakening cuz you know in the Zen tradition you hear of these kind of
enlightened masters but their their kind of behavior was appalling Some of it was not to pick on the Zen tradition because
I just did a um culte in in South Korea for a month It was a really profound
experience I’m completely grateful for and I really didn’t experience any of that um probably other than myself
actually But uh uh but anyway so these this this personality material that seems to get neglected in some spiritual
circles Um uh tell me about your work with this and how how important this is
You know maybe why this gets neglected and what to do about it Yeah Yeah That’s one of the big focuses of my teaching
This is really all about the embodiment the actualization Because you know if we realize things on the cushion and then
we don’t work with the personality material that’s uh where our
identifications are it becomes bypassing spiritual bypassing So that’s what has
led to so many scandals is that people in some traditions and in again 22600
years ago there was no understanding of psychology that they use renunciation and monasticism just like almost every
other tradition to deal with the instinctual drives So they just just
give it up But the problem is these instinctual drives are needed to keep this thing alive So those if those
aren’t worked actively if it’s just pretended like those things aren’t there that’s when it just gets stuffed into
the unconscious and then people act it out because they’re in denial They’re bypassing they’re doing spiritual
bypassing So I mean this is important for all of us because really if we want to realize and live from our deeper
nature we’ve got to work with the personality um identifications that are keeping us
identified as an ego self even after awakening because there’s still personality material all the way up to
the fourth stage you know So people sometimes people will have big experiences or they’ll have maybe the
first stage of awakening and they think it’s all gone because they realize this
but that doesn’t that doesn’t make the ego self get digested All of that has to
get digested through actually working with the personality material directly
So and unfortunately in Buddhism a lot of times and there’s teachers today who still do it Oh thoughts oh they’re just
empty just ignore them Uh yeah And then the person has you know we have 80 to
90,000 thoughts a day The average person think about the teacher who ends up sleeping with a student and abusing
their power in that way They probably had that thought what three or four million times before they acted out And
they never went to another teacher and said “You know what I’m really lusting after this student Can you help me work
through this?” They never did that They pretended like it wasn’t there And then they acted it out I mean they’re like
you know a dog this these are instinctual drives that every mammal has
and if we don’t work with them they don’t get digested So it’s it’s so wild
that uh you know like in the business world a lot of people get brought down by financial scandals or all these other
things but in spiritual communities it seems time and time and again to be like a sexual scandal you know Well there’s
financial scandals too Well yeah I guess so Sure Yeah Yeah And the third drive so
there’s three instinctual drives One is self-preservation That’s where the financial comes in Another is the sexual
instinct to reproduce and all that goes with that And to have a partner who has your back I mean out in the out in the
wilderness if you have a sword and the wolves come and you’re alone you’re dead If you have one other person who’s going
to put you above everyone else and you go back to back with swords you’re both going to live That’s what having your
back means So having a partner it’s it’s about all kinds of things that are very primitive And then the the social
instinct is about the tribe And where we see that being acted out in spiritual communities is competition
You know who’s who’s next in line for dharma transmission Who’s the favorite of the teacher Who’s this and that and
politics People act it out all the time And that’s just the it’s the tribal instinct If we get kicked out of the
tribe we’re a lot less likely to survive So use it out Sure Really good points Now let me
throw this maybe a monkey wrench in here Uh what about well this this just speaks so much to ethics and sila you know and
how glossed over that gets and how important that is especially in lay life and in in the west too Like it took me a
meditation practice to see how important this is And I it was I was like and a
lot of people are astonished like at how I was treating myself and how I was treating others and all a lot of
different things that I had forgotten about in the past were were bubbling up early in my practice Oops Uh and yeah
and and forgiveness practice goes into this and you know so there’s there’s so
many ways to work with this in therapy too I wanted to throw in though like somebody like the or not somebody I
won’t pick on any particular teacher or anything but things like the crazy wisdom tradition right know so some
people will say oh you know they’ve got a really high level of attainment and
they’re they’re maybe they’re just testing or they understand something that we don’t and of course that’s BS
and yeah we both agree that center and the the the suffering
and the pain that was inflicted on those people not from one scandal but from now a second scandal from I won’t say to not
name names but it’s it’s people who just they they are overestimating their own
level of actualization or I mean I think the realization is legitimate that’s why
sure you know we’ve all gotten sucked in I mean fortunately I haven’t I’ve never had a teacher who’s ever had an ethics
issue so I feel very grateful but I I’m like refugees come to me all the time
who’ve had teachers who’ve had scandals and even if it wasn’t with them even if
it was someone else who was harmed the the the betrayal in that is so deep that
it can push people off the path is so sad you know and these teachers are just
not working their personality material I mean they would have had to have the thought I’m going to sleep with a
student millions of times Why didn’t they just admit it and go get some help from a peer You know exactly So that’s
also I want to ask what do you um so the teacher how do we hold teachers accountable Uh how do teachers hold
teachers accountable and how do students hold teachers accountable Like what kind of advice do you do you have for things like that Because I mean I think people
were very naive I was kind of in the second wave of people you know not the first wave because there’s a whole wave
that’s older than me I’m kind of you know in the second generation of of Western teachers But I think there was
just so much idealization and that got fostered I think in the way the Buddhism
not Tyraodan as much as the other lineages but there was well yes Travodan When I was a nun one day I looked like
this the next day I had a shaved head and he had robes and people were falling to the ground bowing in front of me You
know I was put first in line with that What country were you in What country I was at the Pauet
Oh and was that in America or was it And I ordained at the POW retreat I did a temporary two-month ordination And the
way that you’re treated you are put on a pedestal It doesn’t matter whether you have any attainment or not It doesn’t
matter whether you are realized or not You’re put on a pedestal So we did that
And was this in Burma Myanmar though or was this in the States In California It was And And these were Western people
doing this to you Wow Wow Yeah I mean I I didn’t know what it was like to be a monastic but if you have any ego issues
boy they’re going to just super get inflated you know So I think there is something good about the non-monastic um
lineages where we’re regular people you know we don’t look different We don’t
expect that kind of thing you know I mean yes there’s a respect that you would give to a teacher but there’s that
kind of you know um idealization is really the issue that there was so much
idealization and it got cultivated by the tradition itself And I see why they
did that in the old days I’m not saying there weren’t benefits to it that were missing but I think it made students
just believe that if somebody was a teacher and was realized you know we don’t know if they’re realized because
monastics can’t say anything about it and that even the late teachers agreed not to say anything I mean I couldn’t
help it because Tok had already told people by the time I finished my retreat people knew So you know the horse was
out of the barn in my case But um yeah there’s a line between uh worship and
respect right I mean yeah Exactly Exactly So that’s I think it’s good I
think it’s good that that whole that the scandals have come out and that people are more like if they see something off
they’re more willing to not just go along and think “Oh the person knows
better than I do you know or whatever.” Although again it’s still happening you
know It is And it’s it’s nice that that the Buddha Buddhism at least is is a really culturally
established religion I don’t like to look at it as a religion but that’s what it’s become too So there’s so much more
accountability I mean it can go really dark into like cultish type um things with things outside of Buddhism I’m sure
there’s probably some in some sect somewhere But the nice thing about this is it is really culturally established
So it can’t get as I don’t feel it can get as deep and dark as some some other
spiritual circles potentially not to compare and whatever but at least there is such one person and maybe like in
Tibetan Buddhism there have been whole circles of elders who’ve also done coverups for the person but it’s usually
an isolated you know it’s not like a whole community that’s doing it in most
cases there’s even an expose called in the shadow of the Dali Lama like sex
politics and something else in Tibetan Buddhism and it’s been published online I haven’t read all the way through it
and whatnot but you know I I I’m not in a position to really say anything about
uh any of any of that because I I don’t know very little about the Tibetan tradition I mean I I’ve seen so many
good things from just being an outsider I’ve heard stories too But so you know
that’s a whole um complex topic probably for some other place in time Is the big
one Sure Of course Yeah So but yeah So I think as students if if a teacher’s asking you to do things that feel off
that would be a good time to talk to someone else talk to another teacher Sure And just get a get a perspective
rather than keeping it Even if they tell you like “Don’t tell anyone you’re doing this.” That’s a red flag you know That’s
a red flag there So whether it’s money whether it’s sexuality in some ways or
or you know um and there are like I think in in ter Buddhism there have been
the least scandals and things like teachers councils or having other teachers where everybody’s kind of
watching out for these things that helps where there’s a mutual accountability Um
and even like I’m part of both I have the Spirit Rock Teachers Council ethics as part of my ethical commitment but
there’s also another group called the um that I got interested in when I was interviewed by um Buddha the Gas Pump
Rick Archer and they have this association for spiritual integrity I think it’s called now where teachers can
sign up for that and be part of working with other teachers where ethics issues are talked about So there are vehicles
now for that for teachers But that’s where you know this is to me why even
after awakening as a teacher to be still working on your own personality material
is so important So that another thing I would say for students if you have teachers who aren’t talking about and
working with their own personality material that’s a question If you see
bypassing happening where they’re saying that they’re perfected in some way that
they don’t have like all their ego material is gone or something that to me
all of those are red flags because you’ve got somebody who’s in denial They’re bypassing and they’re
communicating that actively and it happens Sure And I would like to just throw in there too though there’s some
teachers that are going maybe to the other extreme where it’s almost like a
inferior ego in inferiority ego you know like they could never do anything right
they want to put themselves way down but this is just conceit you know we all work with conceit whether it be superior
inferior or comparison like I’ve already how many times have I done comparison conceit in this interview you know uh so
so yeah but yeah that’s it It’s all about the balance and I’m just so glad in the terravada tradition that you know
there’s such a huge emphasis on sila I’ve never experienced any of this stuff you know and I’ve seen monastics who u
all the monastic rules they have to follow It’s it’s almost artificial but it it works so well how how how much
they’ve become such a huge better human being Even though it’s almost an artificial imposition of so many
monastic rules but you kind of learned who they were before they came in And now that they’re under these monastic
rules it’s just like it’s just they would have I I don’t feel they would have ever become who they’ve become or
not become but but like uh the the the the level of ethics and conduct that I
can see because of those extensive training rules Of course they’re not for everybody but these are the it’s a
really especially in the Thai forest tradition there’s a huge emphasis on sila and conduct you know and so that’s
what’s so really uh helpful about the Terabana tradition you know and my own and I know for my own bad behavior in
the past how much um just the five precepts and and sticking to them has helped I mean just that’s foundational
you know and how if I just stray a little bit from that the repercussions that come now and as lay practitioners I
really feel that is the most important thing we can do foundationally is is just the five precepts you know um right
right yeah that’s one of the great things about terraoden the big emphasis and it shows
it shows in the the very small number of scandals that have happened so yeah yeah
yeah it’s really important Tina Ina this has been um fabulous You know uh who
knows maybe we can do it again sometime Uh we didn’t even really drill down into the the PA stuff as as much and more
practice but we covered such a a wide range of topics here Uh it’s it was
again an honor and a pleasure So why don’t you tell people how they can get in touch with you the Luminous Mind SA
events you have coming up you know anything else you want to plug and then take us take it away with a a message
too then Yeah the best place to learn more about me is luminousmindsaga.com That’s my website
or you could put my name and Buddhist teacher and it’ll take you there but a lot of other places So but that’s really
where all of my offerings are I do retreats four or five a year a lot of
shorter events on Zoom that are more accessible to people and um and I also
have a year-long mentoring program So my retreats in the mentoring program are really my most popular things and uh if
somebody wants to find out about the year-long mentoring program which is done on via Zoom So I have people all
over the world who are who are doing that right now And um I do occasionally
offer oneoff sessions So um if I have an open hour or two in a month that is an
option And my website has information about all of these things You got to mention inner craft too and retreat in a
box I think these are cool things to mention So thank you Yeah So the retreats in a box I do have things on
the website One that is kind of unusual is the retreats in a box And again at any one time I just had a man in Norway
who finished a three-week retreat that we were helping him with Um I have my retreats that are basically designed you
can just listen to them just as educational but they can all still be done as retreats where you can get help
from somebody on my team who can meet with you every other day or every three
days whatever And um it’s if you like doing solo retreats or have always
wondered about it Um for people who like it it’s really awesome because you can just either stay home or go to an Airbnb
or something and you can have your own timing and it’s uh I have I think four
or five retreats now I have my samurai retreat the luminous mind where I teach zogchan as well Um the heart practices
are going to be up soon I have a vaposa one a shorter sama one and a few other
things So those are great um options for people who want to be able to do a
retreat and have it lightly sort of guided And then I have Innercraft which
it’s been going for like five years now I think where I was invited to be one of the founding teachers And it’s a
platform where um really my latest they’re set up as workshops but
they’re on video where they’re in like five 10 15 minute little segments And I
now have all all my my core teachings are really about like if you picture a mountain we got what is awakening at the
top where I really go into awakening and also the four categories of practice at
the bottom is embodiment Oh and inner craft just released my embodiment workshop Oh congrats Somebody I know
watched it and thought it was great So that is new That is like hot off the press And then I have the four
categories of practice that are being studied in neuroscience which are really the foundation which is a really helpful
framing for meditation practice in general We didn’t get to go into that but that’s so helpful to frame
meditation in general in that art practices sama the um focused attention
which is sama to open monitoring of aa and then the self-trcending which is the zoken practice Um so I have uh workshops
on all of those around inner craft as well So it’s a I don’t really make much money off of it It’s a membership but
it’s a great way to get like my latest teachings and learn more about the
practice categories as well Cool Yeah Well well right on Thanks so much for um
taking the time to to speak to me today and uh thanks for the invitation Yeah
you’re you’re quite welcome And may all beings um practice well and may all beings realize awakening and be free
Integrating Presence 