Faith, Persistence, Nimitta, Waiting For Jhana And The Four Elements | Anapanasati Series With Brian Newman

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(Ai assist:) Executive coach and deep Dharma practitioner Brian Newman shares his journey into the Pa-Auk Sayadaw meditation lineage and the transformative power of strong samatha (concentration) practice.

Brian explains how the need for unwavering presence in his coaching work led him to meditation, quitting alcohol, and eventually discovering that the ancient maps of the mind described in the texts actually work in real life. He emphasizes the essential role of faith (saddhā) in overcoming skeptical doubt, the natural arising of thoughts during practice (and why suppression is never taught), and his preference for building extremely refined jhana-based concentration before intensive vipassanā.

Drawing from direct training with Sayalay Susīlā (Pa-Auk’s longtime attendant), Brian describes the two main tracks in the Pa-Auk system: the absorption-jhana path (requiring nimitta, mastery of kasinas, and rigorous three-hour resolution sits) and the Four Elements dry-insight path used both for health and as an alternative route to strong concentration. He reflects candidly on not completing the full Visuddhimagga-style training yet still experiencing profound results, and explores the broader “jhana spectrum” — from light access concentration to hardcore absorption states — and why clinging to any one definition as “the only real jhana” is unhelpful.

Along the way the discussion touches on:

  • The re-emergence of serious samatha teaching in the West
  • Nimitta and pliancy of mind
  • Subtle steering techniques (including controversial eye-posture instructions)
  • The 14 ways of mastery for psychic abilities (iddhis)
  • Keeping an open yet discerning attitude toward esoteric phenomena
  • A simple recipe for success in deep practice: correct instruction + patient persistence

A rich, honest, and inspiring dialogue for anyone interested in mindfulness of breathing (ānāpānasati), the gradual training, jhana, or the Pa-Auk approach to awakening. Ideal for intermediate and advanced meditators seeking both practical insight and encouragement to go deeper.\

Flavors of Jhana retreatDownload

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Brian Newman
00:33 Who is Brian Newman? (Background as executive coach)
01:50 How Brian brings Dharma concepts into corporate work
04:02 Brian’s meditation journey beginning (from coaching needs to retreats)
06:09 Discovering that ancient teachings “actually work” and building faith
07:09 The role of faith (shraddha) vs skeptical doubt in practice
08:19 Faith in the meditation object and overcoming hindrances
09:19 Past-life paramis and who succeeds in deep samatha
09:53 Thoughts in meditation: natural arising, not to be suppressed
12:19 Thought as a natural phenomenon (like sound)
13:15 Personal insights from coaching on papañca and confidence
14:46 Introduction to Anapana (mindfulness of breathing)
15:24 Brian’s entry into the Pa-Auk lineage via Sayalay Susila
17:05 Choosing strong samatha before vipassana
17:35 The two Pa-Auk paths: Jhana track vs Four Elements (dry insight)
18:06 Absorption jhanas, nimitta, and mastery requirements
20:19 Training the mind to be pliant and wieldy
22:00 My current practice and why a shift in interest toward deeper ultimate reality
23:27 Reconciling dry vipassana and later returning to strong samatha
24:48 Four Elements practice as health practice and its shamanic quality
26:16 Elemental perception and potential psychic abilities
28:10 Desire for direct seeing of ultimate materiality/mentality
29:09 Abhidhamma as a clear manual when the mind is sharp
30:23 The jhana spectrum and why some Western traditions de-emphasized deep jhana
31:27 Signs of the “end times” – abandonment of samatha
32:21 Stories of Western teachers with strong jhana/citta practice
34:12 Christina Feldman’s fierce instruction on the nimitta
35:26 The 14 ways of mastery – intense pliancy training
38:16 Openness (or lack thereof) to siddhis and the esoteric
39:02 The miracle of instruction and the role of intuition in teaching
40:27 Experiences in deep states (piti, divine ear, floating, etc.)
41:59 Leigh Brasington quote on the jhana wars
42:49 Teaching the whole spectrum without dogmatism
44:37 Recipe for success: correct instruction + patient persistence
45:29 Jhanic eye postures as a “steering wheel” for concentration
47:49 Preserving a little magic in practice
48:01 Closing thanks and well-wishes

Mentions and related resources:

Leigh Brasington

Christina Feldman

Daniel Ingram

Sayalay Susīlā (Brian’s main Pa-Auk teacher)

Tina Rasmussen

Shaila Catherine

Pa-Auk Sayadaw & Pa-Auk Forest Monastery

Beth Upton

Kenneth Folk (Brian mentions as a “root teacher” for steering techniques)

My Series Studying And Practicing With “The Iddhipāda-Vibhaṅga Sutta — An Analysis Of The Bases Of Power” (SN 51:20): Introduction; The Sutta’s Key Encapsulation Paragraph & A Translation Reading (1 of 7)

Studying And Practicing With “The Iddhipāda-Vibhaṅga Sutta — An Analysis Of The Bases Of Power” (SN 51:20): Introduction; The Sutta’s Key Encapsulation Paragraph & A Translation Reading (1 of 7)

Exploring the Jhānas as Resonance Tools — groundbreaking paper by Randi Green — https://randigreen.one — https://randigreen.one/onewebmedia/The%20Jhanas%20as%20Resonance%20Tools.pdf

Audio: Faith, Persistence, Nimitta, Waiting For Jhana And The Four Elements | Anapanasati Series With Brian Newman

Unedited transcript via YouTube:

Welcome. This is Josh integrating presence; inner skilled. Today I have Brian Newman with me. Brian,

what’s going on today? Great to see you, Josh. Like I was just saying, nothing I enjoy more than talking Dharma and Jonas with the

practitioner. Well, it’s it’s it’s it’s pretty cool, you know. Um, when I think of all the

things we can do in this this pretty much brief life, I really haven’t come across much better than what we’re doing

here. And this is a big part of the path, I would say. Um, and it can open up a lot of the other parts of the path

in a way of putting it. But so to get us started here with my classic question, who’s Brian Newman? What kind of work

does he do? It’s a funny way to ask it. Um, right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Who’s Brian Newman? He doesn’t seem to be in control of the show, so I hesitate to speak from his voice, but let’s go ahead and do that

anyway because it’s a conventional way to talk. Uh I’m in my early 50s and I’ve

been an executive coach for about uh going on about 15 years now. I do I do

exclusive pretty exclusively businessto business. So what that means is I work with large public companies throughout

the world and I do uh one-on-one coaching for senior leaders and I also do group leadership development

programs. So my sort of forte is long duration about a year um developmental

work in a corporate context which can be very very dry but Josh the truth is and

maybe hopefully those people won’t listen to this podcast they probably won’t find it. I’m teaching dharma in corporate context and I’m using

different words. I have taught the six yogas in corporate context using different words and people get it. They

understand what it feels like to be in a god realm. They know what it feels like to be in a hell realm. We’re in that like six times a day. And so what I what

I take as a great uh point of joy and pride in my work is I’m sort of Trojan horsing deep spiritual concepts into

modern language and it works. Uh which is evidenced by the fact that my clients keep having me back year after year to

run the same programs over and over. How did you get interested in this? And

then we’ll get into the dhamma. That’s what I really want to talk about. And then uh if if you don’t mind like maybe a common criticism might be okay these

are really high influential people. Are they just like maybe appropriating these

concepts and you know making them into more than they actually are and just

using it more for to boost ego to boost power you know like maybe criticisms

like that like are they really sincere? what’s their level of syntheticity, authenticity and and how might that

interfere or not with with you know uh with uh I guess

well I mean we can get into the whole ethics things which is huge but but anyway that I think that’s enough and I

I I don’t want to gloss over this but I I don’t want to spend a lot of time either on it because I want to we would

talk more dharma here. Yeah, I think the the appropriation um isn’t so much of a challenge I think

because I’m actually not using dharma concepts and I’m never saying dharma. I don’t say Buddha, I don’t say meditation. And so there’s nothing to appropriate from that sort of cultural

perspective, I guess, or the Buddhist cosmology perspective. It’s really about finding a way to talk to people that resonates that isn’t too spiritual so

that it turns them off. So if we speak to a CRO, which is a chief revenue

officer, which means he probably runs he or she probably runs a several hundred person team that is focused on generating revenue every day of the

week. They don’t have time for that. They don’t want to hear it. And so what’s the way? How can we get into

their ears? And so it’s a really it’s a it’s a difficult thing. And I think there’s probably few people who can sort

of have one foot in the in the spiritual camp and then one foot in the I can talk to a chief revenue officer camp and not

be offputting. So that’s kind of the the line I’m trying to tow area.

Well, right on. Yeah. and I I’ve come across your work on a a particular

podcast and I appreciate hearing this and one of the things I wanted to reach out to you and this is the on upon

series that I’m doing several sub episodes now so we’ll we’ll get I want to spin the crux on that and in

particular you um te tell us uh tell the audience about the background of your practice um one of the reasons I reached

out is because you’re familiar with the PA lineage which was what I’m you know in now studying and practicing thing for

the most part. And yeah, it’s it’s tied up with what I just said about becoming a coach. So, I was around

I was in my later 30s and I’d been a salesperson for a long time. Um, which which leads to certain good

behavioral qualities, good listening, good questions, stuff like that. But I became a coach and the demands of me were really different. I need to show up

with full presence with someone, you know, perfect, beautiful presence. That meant that um Joshua, that meant I

needed to stop I needed to stop drinking. it it it wasn’t going to be okay to ever show up to somebody hung

over. I realized really quickly when became a coach. Then I started to think, well, I thought I was a good listener, but there’s a lot of things happening in

my head when I’m trying to hear this person talk. And I had this idea that maybe if I sort of looked at the mind

and I had some I did martial arts for a long time, so you know, it was it wasn’t wasn’t totally foreign to me the idea of meditation. I had this idea that maybe I

could quiet the mind and that would be that would make me a better coach. And it wasn’t that I was aiming to be a

better coach. I was aiming to be a better service to the people that I was coaching and I went to a goko retreat. So I was like let’s go do this. It was

actually part of my coaching school. The coaching school that I went to said you need to start meditating 10 minutes a day. And I’m like it’s my personalities.

We’ll probably find out here in a few minutes. And I and I thought well if 10 minutes is good 30 is probably better. And so I did 30. And then I think if 30

was good I think I I quickly went to an hour. And then I was like well maybe I should go on a retreat. And this did

nothing to quiet the mind. It just made me see how loud it was. And that was the start of the whole thing. So once the

loudness can be seen maybe from sort of a witness perspective, it’s like whoa, that ain’t okay. Let’s do something

about that. And that started a 15 year long journey of um first, you know,

really practical. Can I quiet the mind? Can I be really present with my clients? Can I have a spacious presence that allows them to speak into freely? It’s

going to really be supportive for them so much so that they’re almost like they’re talking to themselves. Almost like they’re getting themselves

reflected back at them as if they were talking to a mirror. And that was that was something that can be accomplished

that can be done not maybe not such a long time but then I started to read the books and then things started to happen

and the things that started to happen Josh the book from 2500 years ago said

it was going to happen and I was like what that actually works

and then I realized that then the second thing worked and the third thing worked and if all those things worked the cities must work too it has to all be

true right what could what’s not true are we going to start cherrypicking the things that don’t work or maybe it just

all works. And so there was a moment of faith for me which was faith is a belief

that something’s going to happen even though it hasn’t happened yet. And the dharma calls for faith as do all spiritual traditions. Christianity calls

for deep faith, doesn’t it? We have to have the faith we’re going to be in heaven after we die. And so I really sort of I think I um I had wonderful

teachers that allowed me to have faith and I had faith in myself because my practice was going well. And I just wrote that faith to uh incredible

incredible practice. Incredible. I was tempted to say attainments, but it wasn’t about the attainments. It was about the experiences

and the uh the outcomes of those experiences that let me see myself, the world, and others in a really different

way. Well, that’s beautiful, you know, and and teacher reminds me of that now,

especially when doing samata practices, how important faith is, you know, and

this this word is kind of tainted, I think, in the west as well in some sense. So it’s um I like the word trust,

right? and and in this confidence confidence in uh our our ability to do

the practice, confidence in the the Buddha and that it’s to it’s legit and

you know other you know that whole thing and then then the um the the object

itself that that’s the one I hadn’t heard so much about but whatever the meditation object did itself having um

confidence that that will actually do what I mean through verified right and

this is not a blind faith either this is things that we’re have to that that will be verified for ourselves so yeah it’s

it’s utterly important I feel um uh especially in the west for these

practices um yeah we kind of like to just jump to the wisdom some of us right away and then you have to be balanced

out with faith for sure yeah I hadn’t heard that about the object but that’s a really beautiful thing to say yeah faith that the earth

casino will actually take me into John is a really powerful I’d also like to point out that faith is the opposite of

one of the primary hindrances. So, it’s probably a good idea to hold that in our hand instead of having skeptical doubt.

Maybe we could anchor on the faith instead and let that take us through and then we’ll never have to worry about that hindrance. Skeptical doubt, as you

said, is a lot about doubting ourselves, which is a confidence issue. My thing in the POW tradition, Josh, it

said that only one in the million could ever, it’s not in the power tradition. The visa maaga, only one in the million could ever attain John. You’ve seen the

quote one in this and one in that turns out to one in the million. The thing is if you showed up in my Janna class and

you’re one of the 20 people that’s a lot of the ones in one room. It’s one of the

million of the whole world but it’s not one of the million of the 20 people that showed up to learn Janna because they have past life past life parameters that

got them there. And I’m I’m I’m using past life parameters loosely. That could mean when they were eight or when they

were 14 or it could mean when they were four lifetimes ago. They’ve done the practice. they know how to do the

practice and they will be able to do the practice. Really good point and I mean there’s trillions of people. I mean not to get

into silly odds and stuff but the all the amount of people on the earth too now. So but that brings me to a good

point. Um we mentioned before the show that my primary object has changed

casino. So this I’ll be wrapping up this series um somewhat. But I want to of course get into anapana here. The other

thing um though that you mentioned here a couple um responses ago is the

relationship to the mind and thinking. I mean this is a classic one in uh meditation. So on a conventional sense

uh just just what is your view on this? I know it it’s really interesting. I see

some teachers say, “Oh, it’s not a problem. It’s not a” But then they go into this basically micromanaged um

neurotic uh yeah neurotic micromanaging of you know here to do. So like if that’s the

case then why are you like so intimately involved in all this micro levels of how

to have all these micro strategies of what to do, you know? So I I don’t know. I mean I think that can be helpful too.

It’s just it’s it’s just this kind of weird I don’t know paradox or I don’t know if you’d call denial or what but

whatever it is or isn’t how do you deal with with the the thinking mind? I know some of us are more u visual thinkers

and some of us are more language-based thinkers. Uh yeah what’s what’s the proper view in relationship to thinking and meditation

and how you teach it? No thought is a thing that can happen

and if we do shamata practice and you’ve done it for a long time so you know when we go to look for thoughts sometimes

they’re just not there and it’s actually happened quite a bit I think in shamata practice sort of momentarily even at the very beginning of the practice

that being said I’m not aware of any meditation tradition could be wrong I’m not aware

of any meditation tradition that teaches the suppression of thought maybe there’s some like weird something old school

Indian yogic tradition or something like that but I’m not aware of any tradition that teaches the suppression of thought. So this idea that most and almost all

non-meditators beginning meditators come into the practice with is I’m here to to make my thinking go away. So right away

we’re in failure mode because the thinking ain’t going away. And so in that first those first three or four days that person will definitively pin

down the fact that they’re a horrible meditator due to all their thoughts because this is a no thought thing, right? And so this you can see how that

just destroys the practice. So thoughts are a natural thing. Uh you know um

ticknut hun says Josh and we do samata practice sound can get really annoying at a certain stage of the practice.

Tikknahan says sound is a natural thing that should just resolve all that for us right so in the same way thought is a

natural thing it’s a natural thing you know thought is wonderful and non- knowing experiences are wonderful and it does something really deep and and pure

p purifying to the mind but I um I’m not aware of any I don’t know any meditation

teachers that say think less or suppress that thought yeah it’s a good it’s a good point I

think there’s um common mis I have heard some teachers say that they want to get

people more towards um you know not having any thoughts but it it’s really

rare you know it seems to quiet down naturally and like you said uh we need

to think throughout our lives you know and and in fact I would say um some people are afraid they don’t want to do

any critical thinking either they just kind of want to be handed their opinions and get in line and and I can understand

because there are some thoughts that are just repetitive have redundant looping that are harmful that you know are

potentially harmful in a way but then it it’s a brilliance machine too. the the thinking mind can, you know, be a genius

machine, but it’s not the only tool for the job, right? It depends what it is. And so, yeah, it’s um it’s it’s a

classic one. So, let’s get personal, if I can say real quick on that, that there’s personal connections around thought that I’ve learned through

the coaching practice, not through my meditation practice. I’ve coached for thousands, thousands of hours and, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people,

maybe thousands. And what I’ve learned is some people are prone to papancha and some are not. Papa

being the spinning of the mind. And and you know what um Josh I’ve come to see because I do a lot of psychometric assessments with people. So we get to

see sort of personality traits all built into that. It has a lot to do with confidence. It has a lot to do with

innate confidence. And people that do not have that innate confidence on certain personality assessments like Gallup strengthfinder that would rate

your self assurance level. They’re more prone to self-questing, discursive thinking, spinning out insomnia. So

there really sort of um I almost want to say a physiological maybe even a genetic component to how our thinking mind

works. Yeah, that that’s fascinating. And to to muddy the waters further, I mean, when I

was struggling with self-confidence, I the where I was at at the time, the

examples I had of people that had self-confidence were completely egotistical, almost eaglemaniacal, I

wonder, you know, so I was conflating the two and they’re completely different, but it’s understandable that

I was confusing them for a while. But yeah, when we when we get really healthy examples and can see and study people

with really uh beneficial self-confidence, there’s not any of that type of egotism around. So I just throw

that in there. Um yeah, thank you. Yeah. So So let’s get into anapana. This

is one of the ones that helps calm and subdue the mind too and um and be can be

very pleasant. I mean it’s not for every not for everyone but this is the I would say the what the most one of the most

common objects uh taught especially in samata and I I think in the pak they

they try to start most people there that can do it right in samata as from what I

understand. Yeah. So um so yeah just talk about anapana and how you teach it and how you’ve

practiced it. Um, and I I guess I’ll just leave it kind of more open to see where you want to go with this.

Yeah. And please chip in, you know, follow any threads are interesting to you. So maybe I’ll just talk a little bit about the Pok path as I understand it. My my primary teacher for this is Si

Susila, who was Pawok’s chief attendant for something like 15 years, I believe, servicing serving him in in Burma and

also in Sri Lanka when she would travel to him and she cooked his food. So she’s the the lady behind the curtain, so to

speak. She would see everything. um the direct line to his teaching. So she was my primary source for that. She

was in Paneang. I was living in Hong Kong at the time. I can’t remember how I found her. Perhaps through a search on Google. She doesn’t go out there

advertising herself. She doesn’t really want anybody to come by unless they’re extremely serious. The name of her

retreat center and Josh, it’s this beautiful I almost want to say like a villa on a

hill on the mountains in Paneang looking over the entire city. Takes like an hour to get there. It’s just unbelievable.

Unbelievable place. I’ve never been somewhere like this. there’s a Buddha in the hall as big as a house. It’s just

and I’d be the only one in the hall because there’s nobody there. It could hold 300 people and I’d be the only meditator for weeks on it. So, she was

the one that introduced me to the path. I showed up to her having a little bit of practice. I guess I’d worked with um

Tina Rasmmanson and Steven Snder. I’d been to a retreat with them. Back then, this is say 15 years ago, there wasn’t

many Janna teachers around. And so, I was looking for everybody. So, you had Lee Raisington. I read his book. We had

Tina and Steven did a retreat with them. And you had Shila Katherine who had come out of Burma and she’d written that book as well. So I spoken to Shila and I

found uh Sila Susil. I got to go to her. She’s close and she was with Pauok. So I’m going to go train with her. So I

showed up to her having some mahasi style vipasa noting and some Janna stuff but I was really keen on the Janna

practice. I had decided that I was going to get my Janna as good as it could get before I really got seriously into vipasan at the beginning of my

meditation journey. So for some reason the gradual training just like settled to me really well. It seemed like an obvious way to practice and I was

fortunate to have read about that or something and decided that would be a good way to practice. So I was going to at the very minimum I was going to get

first Janna and then I would begin my vipasa practice. So I showed up to her and I knew a little bit about vipasa and

not much about uh a little bit about Janna too. The first thing she says is you know she practiced at the mahasi

center for a very long time as well and she’s like oh we don’t do that kind of imposs. You’re going to be doing four

elements. So she had me on the four elements meditation right away. And I just want to clarify for your listeners

here. The path of pawalk is a path leading towards abidama style vipasa.

And you you know this Josh, I’m kind of preaching to the choir here. But ultimately we need the mind so concentrated that we’re going to be

analyzing subatomic particles, ultimate reality, ultimate mentality, past lives. and and

and that’s why they’re going for that incredibly concentrated visuda maga type

janna which is called an absorption and one is absorbed into the nimita which forms through a long period of practice

and it’s a sign of concentration and then once one is absorbed uh it’s essentially a you know it’s it’s said in

the tradition that any sound wouldn’t bring you out of this state it’s so so hard you could you could call it perhaps

and so in that tradition it is true that not Everybody will be able to practice

to the point of getting the nimmita and and and I encourage you to speak to teachers like Tina. I encourage everybody to speak to teachers like Tina

like that because when I was speaking to her the other day, she said, “I had a student who was unsuccessful getting Janna for three years, kept at it, did

two and a half months worth of silent retreat and got it on her final retreat. I just celebrate the persistence and

patience. This is a practitioning and letting the Janna find you. And not

many people in the modern world have the time to wait to let the Janna find them. So it teaches grit and stamina and

persistence and all these beautiful things. So you’re you’re offered these two paths and I believe everybody starts

with the Janna path and you you kind of grind at that is you know either successful if you’re not and if you’re not you’re very politely kind of ushered

over to the four elements path. The four elements path although it’s kind of a body scan vipasa thing it’s also said to

be a concentration practice. So it’s this beautiful blend and that’s enough.

So if you can get to the the the u attainment of the four elements which is the body either dissolves or turns into

this sort of white icy like material that you’re kind of observing as a witness that’s the attainment and then

you’re given the rubber stamp. Okay, you can go ahead and go and start your um vipasa practice. Now on the Janna side

you’re going to have to go through all the Janna’s all the all the casinas all the Janna this is a multimonth or

multi-year process simply because you have to sit in each one for three hours to get the stamp of approval. Although I

have heard that that that was changed to two hours. So it’s like the bar was going down. But when I was doing it, it

was a three-hour sit. And the three hours was one sits, one makes a

resolution to exit the Janna at a certain time later. There’s no timers involved here. And then you exit exactly

that time and that’s the attainment. This is how the practice is done. And that sounds very magical. And people in

this listening will think well the way that happens. It happens over and over when one trains the mind. When the mind

is plant, malleable, and wieldy, it happens over and over. It’s something that can be done. It’s something that can be taken into your own life, and you can just kind of set the mental alarm

and wake up at 5:30 a.m. whenever you want to. We start to learn how to work the mind that way. So, fortunately, I

have the ability to get the neato arose for me. It doesn’t for everybody, which was a sign that I would be able to get

absorbed. And I was a mid30s uh strong young man, and I was going for

it. And so, I was going to get the whole thing. And Josh, for me, this wasn’t really a tranquility practice. The way

that the way that it’s played out for me, so I’ve been doing this for, say, 15 years or something now. It’s much more a

tranquility practice for me now than it was back then. Back then it was I’m

going to wake up and I’m going to be with the breath all day long. And I’m going to sit as much as possible, three-hour sits, every single time on

every sit until I pass out and go to sleep. And if I have any energy left, I’m going to stare at a fire flame. I’m

gonna stay at the fire casino just to get a little bit more concentration when I’m totally exhausted at night. And to

be totally frank with a householder life right now and a wife and a job and everything and if I didn’t have that, I’m not sure I have the energy to go and

do the same thing again. And I and to be totally clear, although my teacher in Malaysia did validate my Janna, I didn’t

do the whole practice. I have not completed that practice. I didn’t do every single casina and all eight Janna

in every single casino. nor did I go and do the other 40, you know, 39 some oat meditation objects. So, in spite of me,

like I think if you look at the westerners, like in the in the west, very few people have probably gone on

the Shimata path as far as I have and I’m just there kind of the very beginning. It’s kind of hilarious.

Well, you know, I haven’t even got nimmita yet. U so I I you know, I’m getting lights and stuff like that and I

I’m I’m prepared for the long haul. The way I’ve I’ve been telling people is, you know, the the dharma has helped me

out so much in in other traditions, but at the end of the day, it’s conceptual, right? And there’s um you know, some

people are really good with concepts and then some people are really good applying concepts and that’s when it’s

really helpful. And I’m forever grateful for you know, these and how much they’ve

transformed my life, utterly turned it around 180. Now I’m at a point though that I um I’m not seeing ultimate

materiality, ultimate mentality. And the question becomes how much depth is in

comprehension and completeness is needed to see Duka Nicha Nata in order for it

to be effective. I mean we because I think of back in my life sometimes about oh yeah I had these concepts and I

thought that was the case but that’s it’s it’s like a relative level. Yeah, it was for but then there’s something else comes along and it’s even kind of

more true or however you want to say that more and more. So like this from

what I understand ultimate mentality ultimate material that’s as far as you can take con there’s no more concept left you know you’ve deconstructed it it

down to as far as it can be deconstructed and like you’re saying so I’m a little bit confused on this

path though too. So you had you had one teach uh the teacher they they they started you on the dry insight right

away but then you later went back and started doing samata again. And is from what I understand there’s five Jonic

masteries too in each one and and there’s certain samata objects that will only take you to access and some that

will go up to a certain level of Janna and some that will go all through all eight Jas and stuff like that and so I

guess how do you reconcile this and what do your teachers say about that? I I’m just I’m curious or and then how do you

you feel about that because yeah I’m curious because I haven’t heard of um this uh I don’t think yet. though

the you haven’t heard of that dual path approach to getting into No, I I have but usually I thought uh once they someone starts on dry insight

then you’re you’re not supposed to go back and not supposed to but you know what I mean like um go back and then go

do the samata approach you’re supposed to go got it so yeah yeah in Burma I’m not sure what they do

I have not been to Burma so what my teacher told me at the time so what she knew I was there to do John it was very very clear my goals were explicit she

was absolutely in sync with me uh in a very beautiful beautiful way that as you

know the teacher student relationship runs deep and is profound and she was very much in sync with me and the way that the way that the reason that she

taught me four elements was she wanted me to have the ability to do

something other than Janna when I needed to during the day actually so in her in her this is a really interesting thing

man we don’t hear about this in the US it’s a thing amongst the monastic communities that doing the four elements

practice keeps one very very healthy like I’ve heard things like you will never get prostate cancer if you’re

scanning the genitals persistently with the four elements. And I I believe this

actually I think that leaving things out of our awareness can cause real problems. And so she gave that to me as

a health practice and she wanted she just wanted me to kind of build the practice out. She knew that I had strong concentration and didn’t need that. She

knew I was going to be able to take the Jonapath. But I was very very grateful. So what my practice would look like was

I would probably do sort of two shorter sits during the day when I was training very hard with her of four elements. The

the other interesting well four elements is sort of an unknown practice in the west and I’m kind of at the point now where I think I want to start teaching it because I think it’s beautiful and

important. You can note elements that are not in your own body. So you can

note birds flying by as earth wind and you can you can infer you can infer

things. You can infer the heat of the bird’s blood. What this does Josh is it brings a it’s like shamanistic terrain

because you’re walking through the world and it’s like you move the arm and it’s like when

on a 14-day retreat this becomes very pronounced so there’s something mystical

magical I have some I have a deep um love for the Peruvian shamatist traditions as well and it sort of

crossed that sort of like that middle road and made me feel like maybe this is like real early Buddhism almost like emerging from shamanism.

Well, it’s incredible and I’ve practiced four elements a little bit, not much. But this from what I understand, some people say that’s some of the psychic

powers is is basically mastery over the elements. You’re perceiving something as a entire element, right? I think

somebody said like the the the walking on water is basically h having such powers of perception and not

interference. Let’s just say to perceive it as not water, perceive it all as earth. And so

you literally turn the water cina into an earth casino because you’re so used to doing that in your practice. And then you walk on it.

And we know how powerful. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I’m not saying yes or no, but that’s what Exactly. Same. Exactly. And we we just

think on a conventional level the how important perception is and how people will orient their whole lives around

like a narrative of how they perceive the world and that’s how their the story of reality is basically their reality.

You know, it’s so much so much of us live in a story about reality instead of reality and and that

as you could probably know that there’s so much when you get into the vapasa about all these micro minute moment by

mind moment and perception is just one little thing amongst so many but yeah the elements and and sometimes I will

you know even just scanning through the body with our inner sight if there’s some kind of issue and then going into

that uh with the four elements I’ve noticed uh quite quite interesting experiences just doing certain problem

areas in the body with with four elements in that and I won’t go into that now but yeah so for my it just

seems to me like on a conceptual level that’s is as much as we can kind of strip down perception in the physical

world uh without any extra ideas or concepts or per you know and even you

know it’s said uh in ultimate materiality able to discern the four elements within a kalapa amongst other

things you So, it’s just so I know and I’m practicing. Are you drawn to that? Like, would you like to have a a mind so plant that that

would be accessible? Well, I’m practicing now in a group where there’s several people that are at this level

already and it just it just blows my mind to to see how um kind of pedestrian

I mean that’s not the right way to put it that when they go into like five past lives as part of discernment process to

discern other things and they’re discerning materiality of u various

davas and stuff like that you know and and you know so seeing subtle materiality it’s just the the

to me I I I I get so enthusiastic about that. So that’s pro, you know, but that’s just it’s just another part of

the the process. You know, some people might think, oh, this is but it’s just so deep and profound and it and and it

just it it hurts me in a way to to think that a lot of people just blow off the sudi man abidama without actually being

able to see and know it for themselves. I mean, at the very least, I have to be able to see and know this for myself in

order to say, “Oh, this isn’t relevant. It’s too much. It’s not needed.” You know what I mean? So, I think the the Abidama feels to me a lot like a um the

manual to my car, which is something that I I never open it up unless something’s kind of like broken or like

I’m on a retreat and then I then when I open up on the retreat, I’m like, “Oh, this is so clear.” And then I take it back into my lay life, you know, three

three months out of retreat, I’m like, “What?” But the mind moments are clear when the mind is sharp. So that that was

my that was the reason I never got further is I I I couldn’t see myself having the time uh with the attention

that I wanted to give to it to be able to get to that level. And it to be totally frank, Josh, it actually wasn’t

attractive to me. I was ready to go uh I how could I frame that in a way that’s generous to the system. I didn’t feel

like I needed that level of vipas to be able to um achieve the awakening that I

hope for. Maybe that’s Yeah. And that’s a great way to put it. And the jury is still out for me, you

know. So, you’re right. It it seems like where where I’m at now, it would take lifetimes. And then again,

you know, to to to possibly, you know, do that and but that’s okay because I really can’t think of much else worthy

of my time and attention as this path and, you know, still exploring all these different areas as well. But but anyway,

you know, uh let’s talk about this the the this Jonas Jonic spectrum, let’s just call it, you know, the neatas that

some people get triggered out by this, you know, and then um yeah, if whether

it’s you’re referring to soft or hard uh Janna and then some people might say

suta janna, vudi maga and this whole spectrum that seems to be a hot topic

and yeah like um I think well Yeah, let’s just get into that. But but also

set the stage. What do you think about in in America where in some of the traditions maybe I’m thinking maybe

insight tradition and some of these others where they just shy away from really getting deep deep deep into the

Jas uh first and kind of what the attitudes around what informed that

kind of millu I guess and yeah but now we see it actually being taught more and

more I think in more mainstream United States Dharma circles if there’s any such thing like

It’s definitely having a resurgence I would say. You know, there’s a I think this is true that the Buddha said

somewhere in the sutas that the you know sort of the end of times will be known when people stop practicing shamata.

You’re aware of that. And so the this idea that there’s sort of Janna wars and everybody’s sort of saying their Janna

is the best which is a really typical thing to do. You know every meditation teacher should think their thing is the best in some way perhaps. Maybe that’s

going to make for good teaching. But I I I appreciate that because the the the Janna war means that we’re doing Janna

and we’re talking about Janna and that’s the whole point. That means we’re not at the end of times. How how reassuring why

the IMS or maybe others didn’t emphasize that sort of the practice. I’m not sure. It’s it’s curious, isn’t it? Because

they certainly knew about the gradual training and they certainly emphasize CILA and Deosa. So I don’t know, you

know, were they were they shying away from magical stuff? Deep Mab was said to have magical powers. Did they not want to bring that into the into the US? I’m

not quite sure. But you also have wonderful stories like um Christine Feldman known to be a cities practitioner. She’s this lovely sweet

lady. You can go look her up in the guy how she looks like the like somebody’s grandmother. Known to be a super hardcore cities practitioner. David uh

Daniel Ingram, the author of uh a fairly famous book goes to see her to learn how to do the

cities. And he got this on advice. I think believe Joseph Goldstein told him at IMS, “You should go talk to Christina

Feldman because I have no idea what you’re talking about. She’s the one that did all that stuff.” So he goes to see her. Do you know this story? Have you

heard about this? It’s in a No, I I’ve actually practiced at Gaia House. I’ve reapplied. I saw that she’s

might be teaching a I can’t remember. I haven’t looked at the the schedule in depth, but I’m going to be doing a service retreat and no, I know of her,

but I didn’t know this about the cities. I of course Deepipama I knew and Mendery

who was her teacher and stuff like that. Yeah. So Ingram hears she’s the Christine Feldman is apparently the city’s master. This is maybe this is

like secret info, you know, be careful. Who knows? People are going to hear this. Start bothering her. Please don’t bother Christine Felman. So he goes to

her and he’s apparently he’s being a total brat in the interview cuz he flies across the pond to go to like a

monthlong and he gets I think he had like 15 minutes with her all in. So he has to get what he needs in the 15

minutes. So he goes in as as a total brat on his own description and he’s like I need to learn the cities. How do

I get the cities? And she goes, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What’s your connection with your breath right now? You should kind of like trying to bring

it back to reality. He’s like, “No, you don’t understand. I’m an Araot. I flew across the ocean. I need to know how to

do this.” Maybe he said, “I’m an origami or something.” And she’s just not having it. And they’re like fighting back and

forth until there’s like two minutes left in the interview. And she gets pissed. He says she goes full dharma

wrath. And he said it was super impressive. Like this was an impressive thing to see a dharma teacher go full dharma wrath. And she goes, “You really

want to know? You really want to know?” And she shoves her hand out in his face and she goes, “It’s the nimita. Put all

your attention on the nimmita.”

Wow. That’s that’s incredible. You know, um here I’ve heard here I’ve heard that

uh there’s like a list of 14 things of you know, johnic mastery is supposedly

just five different but there’s there’s way more different steps as the preliminary to psychic powers. But yeah,

it’s commonly known that Janna that that has something to do. But that’s uh that’s real interesting. And yeah, it’s

it’s funny. My um teacher in Denmark um just recently did a retreat with Daniel

in Florida, you know, doing Fire Casino and being hooked up to all this whatever machines and stuff. Um so I I haven’t

heard how it went or he started a new podcast, just a just a plug there, but I haven’t mentioned a name. So you’ll have

to you’ll have to find that yourself. uh listeners but yeah this and and we know that he’s a magical practitioner too

Daniel and quite a controversial figure but also has contributed I would say

quite a bit to practice and and the the dharma and many other fields too yeah

very interesting figure and I love that story it’s a very it’s a real cool yeah thank you for sharing that yeah it just

kind of gives me goosebumps like oh if if you dig hard enough it’s there and so you mentioned the 14 ways I think that’s I’ll talk about this Janna Spectrum, but

this 14 ways is so fascinating to me. So, if you want to know how to do the magical powers, the cities, we’re kind of talking about that today. It’s kind

of on my mind. I’m actually teaching the fourth John cities this week. I’m not teaching cities, I’m talking about cities.

The there’s a recipe for it. It’s in the bassudam. It’s called the 14 ways. And so, I think somebody that went on a Beth Upton retreat told me that Beth actually

teaches the 14 ways. It’s very clear. Essentially, you just move the mind all around. Like, you go to the first and

then you jump to the eighth and you go to the eighth and you blend them together and you do this and you do that. So Josh, the 14 ways is [ __ ]

[ __ ] There’s no 14 ways. There’s incredibly intense practice that must be

done to make the mind plant malleable and wieldy and impertable. And that doesn’t have to be 14 ways or six ways

or 40 ways, but you got to figure out yourself how to move the mind back and forth. Do all the genres, switch the earth casino to the water casino. And

that’s really important. So I’m taking the 14 ways as almost a simile. Go do the hard work. get super super

concentrated to be able to move the mind in all these different ways. You’re nodding there. Does that resonate with you? Well, yeah, it does. And I mean, it’s

just if people are really methodical and want something, you know, that on paper basically, but yeah, I get the sentiment

of course. My uh limited guessing here is that, you know, you you talk about really advanced practitioners. You have

to and we talk about getting into the realm of the occult or esoteric and and if just think about different attacks on

the mind. You have to be able to um anything coming at you have to be able to go beyond it or not

in 23 years. Yeah. Yeah. So, and and I was listening to a talk on this too about some of the

the the uh specifics on this where where if something like if um is it an object

that’s manifest by another uh practitioner, you can’t pass through it?

Um or something like this. So, I’ll have to maybe give you the uh see if I can uh give you this talk that my teacher gave

about the the specifics of these different types of all the different stuff into it. And it really we’re we’re

speaking about Lee and we talked about we said really good things about Lee uh at the beginning. It’s just I I just

wonder though he’s not open to these things at all, right? He writes it off as oh this is just you know the standard

scientific thing. So anything out I think outside the established scientific framework, it’s not on the table for him

really. He’s he’s he’s you know, you have to prove it for him. Um so that’s okay. You know, I respect that because

he’s done so many good things. But for those of us who just um either have had

experiences or just kind of intuit that maybe there’s a little bit um going on besides the just the

standard scientific paradigm that could be measured with instruments, you know?

I mean it’s just maybe a little. Yeah. My thing is even if you still have to be open to it, right? Because he you can’t

really of course nobody’s coming up to him to prove it anyway. I don’t think any you know any master would might be a

little bit turned off to do that but at least be open to being a possibility too. So I mean the reason I’m a little

bit on the other side of where because of the over scientific materialism I

think and the scientism which is also a religion now. So it a lot of this stuff has been vilified de demonized uh made

fun of uh and so just to balance out the scales a little bit I think it it’s really something to to look at and we

look at the idiipas um I spent some time with and you know the Buddha praised these things actually of course it is um

also said that it’s it’s to get to the miracle of instruction that’s the whole point of these right

and even that though is is so mind-blowing because how commonplace has instruction become now you know like we

if we had the instruction of the Buddha then all we really need is right the the proper instruction and persistent effort

and enough time and anything is really achievable but like the the notion of instruction has been so commonplace and

so watered down that people don’t see it as miraculous anymore you know how many courses can I buy online how many videos

are are instructing me how to do things but I don’t think that’s exactly what this means but you know it it said that

some of these psychic powers or exercise in order to bring them to the dharma and to get them on the right path. So yes,

we don’t want to use this as a distraction, but as far as a teacher, I mean the one that can be really

relatable now I feel is mind readading because we’re such a mindbased society.

So if someone can intuit it someone’s uh mind it’s really helpful I think in a teaching you know in a teaching capacity

if if these type of thing let’s just say we want to be a little more safer here that the powers of or the the practice

of intuition can be really helpful when trying to see and ac assess what one

should be more focused on or you know pointing out instructions or you know on and on. Uh yeah,

and we we can I think we can hold the definitions a little bit loosely too. I don’t know about you, but if one goes really deep into samati samata practice

where you’re getting nimitas and things are happening, the divine ear is going to happen. You’re going to start hearing voices talk. Whether that’s true or not,

you know, everybody needs to decide that for themselves. You’re going to get here’s my my teacher

in um Malaysia would say things like, “Yeah, in the first Johnny the pity the first Janna, your pity will get so

strong you’ll start to float away.” Was she speaking to me metaphorically or not? I didn’t check. I didn’t want to

check. I would like to preserve the magic of that. I have had pity so dramatic. I felt like I was floating. I

did not open my eyes to check. I don’t want to know. I would like to kind of hold the idea that maybe I was. It makes me feel cool. It’s like a fun thing. Um,

you know, and I was with Lee this week. I was with him for the last few weeks and I I lovely. He’s a just such a profoundly wonderful dharma teacher in

person. And it’s really interesting how he accepts all the training except for that part of the cities. But but Lee also says things like, “Sometimes when

I’m really concentrated and I’m hanging out in the sixth genre of infinite consciousness, I notice some other

infinite consciousness is in there.” What is that, Josh? It’s like so he’s

really like uh not liking some of the cities, but he’s open to some, you know, some some great stuff. So I think that,

you know, we we all kind of like pick and choose what we’re acceptable, but you know, that kind of leads to a Lee quote. So these often some people will

see sort of the lighter end of the spectrum um with his his teachings his Aayakamir teachings which I actually

don’t think that’s the case. I think he’s at least sort of middle higher and he says the same thing but he had this

quote I wanted to share with you that I thought would kind of put a pin in the spectrum wars which is this. Let me read

this to you. Okay. Most teachers of Janna tend to regard all Janna methods with concentration levels weaker than their

own as not authentic, not real Janna. And they tend to regard all methods with

concentration levels stronger than their own as indulging and not useful.

I think that’s the heart of the matter. I think it nails it. That’s really good. I mean, that that

puts things into perspective, doesn’t it really? and we look at maybe our our own attitudes and views toward this, maybe

some of the teachers that we’ve done, uh some of the practitioners we’ve been around, and we can see immediately how

this this quote resonates, right? So, what do we do about it, though? Well, so so I love I think I’m just

talking to you for an hour. I feel you and I are somewhat aligned. I believe that perhaps the most wholesome way we

could approach this is we know the whole spectrum and we teach according to the needs. And so the way to do that Josh

for people like you and I is we need to learn POW because that’s the highest end that’s the highest bar. And so if you

get the highest bar then everything else should be available to you. Lee taught for four weeks in our Janna community recently. It is not difficult at all if

you have POW Janna to go completely bliss out in his instructions for first second and third. Fantastic precise

works right away out of the box for everybody almost. And so even though I promote myself as someone who is

advertising the sort of most absorbed genres, I’m coming to really appreciate that I actually would like to be the

person who has the only thing that has zero dogmatism except about the fact

that I’m the only dogmatism I would like to have is about being non-dogmatic. So just holding the whole spectrum and

really light for this person and give them a little bit of ayamir Lee Brazington here and oh you’re one of

those people which I get about one one in 50 is like we’re going for it and we’re going to get the nimmita and they

want instructions about the retreat two months before it starts and my instructions will be the exact same

instructions that Tina Rasmmanson gave me two months before my first Donna retreat which which was you will stop watching TV you will stop watching all

movies you will not read any news or magazines and the only books you will read are dharma books. I follow that to

a letter. It worked out well for me. Not many people want to do that.

I I I can’t second that enough. You know, I got rid of my TV years ago and

Yeah. No. And then you you know if if you just do that and then Yeah. for longer and longer periods you go back

and so reensitized to that stuff. It’s it’s Tell me tell me your recipe again. You said those three things and that that

was like I think this podcast should be called that. You said um right instruct like correct instruction.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s right. So like um with with the proper instruction proper instruction

patient persistence anything is achievable you know and given enough time of course. Yeah. So

that’s why it’s kind of built in patient persistence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the that’s the message for every

hardcore genre practitioner is really going for. Absolutely. So, we need a discernment to know um what is the right instruction

and that’s a whole part of it too. And then the patient persistence because we don’t want to do so gung-ho. Well, some

people need to be more of that and you know, so it’s a balanced effort. Patient persistence and and keeping at you know

the with Janna keeping the object long periods of time like you mentioned is is is is another good way, right?

Supposedly. So, let me ask you one specific question before we wrap up here. Um, I heard you say about these

eye postures and how you mentioned them to your teacher and then I I’m just wondering, you seem to infer her

response without actually asking her if that was what she meant. So, I challenge you to actually ask her and make sure

that’s the case. So, I just wanted to say I like I like to infer because I don’t want to know the answer a lot of the time. Okay. So, fair enough.

It’s kind of like not getting your heart checked at the doctor because you think you might have heart disease. The Let me just say one thing on eye posture. So the dilemma of the Pawak

tradition and why it is such a difficult path for many people is because it’s a path of waiting and allowing the Janna to come to you. And so just sitting in

the first until you get to the second is not really what people want to hear. And what that means is it it has a strong

engine which is the anopanosati but it lacks a steering wheel. We don’t really get to steer. And we we have to be able

to steer at at a certain place on the spectrum when we’re not on a deep retreat for three months and we’re going

hard for these powok things. You have to be able to steer a little bit. And Lee is just an expert at giving steering

instructions, as is my root teacher, Kenneth Folk, at giving steering instructions. And the primary steering

instructions that seem to work for most people are the way that we hold the eyes in certain genres. And so I realize it’s

a really provocative thing to say, but please come learn this from me because if I teach you this, I guarantee it’s

going to super I’m not saying that to you, just anybody. I guarantee it will have some supercharged effect on your practice. Whether you think you’re doing

Janna or something else, I’ll leave that up to you. But I have really strong conviction that what my teacher taught

me about the Jonak eye postures that I do and then vetted with various people along the years and and coded stuff as

well. If you go look at like Zosian text, there’s all this coded stuff about the eyes. Llama, the Tibetan teacher, talks about a lot of these things. Why

would why would you put a rock in front of you in Shen in Tibetan Buddhism and stare at it unless it had to do with the way you’re holding the eyes? There’s

there’s something to that, I think. What? How do we hold our eyes when we stand on one foot and we’re trying to be concentrated? We would we would hold

them steady and look at a point on the wall or we’re going to fall down. The trick here is you need to do the

same thing with the eyes closed when you’re practicing ja. There’s a way to hold that brings stability. And so this

is probably the most like out there iconoclastic thing for me to say coming from the POW tradition. This is actually the most important

thing I can teach anybody about. Wow. Yeah, this is fascinating. I I just immediately um I need a lot more

contemplation and practice with this. So if we if we if we do another one, maybe we’ll get into this. Maybe I’ll have a

little bit of practice behind me on this or whatever. But tell people how they can get in touch with you. Tell them about the retreat you have coming up.

Anything else you want to draw attention to? And then a final message. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I’m not out there advertising myself as a drama

teacher. I am shoulder tapped and I respond to that because I love this practice and I love to share with people

and I wish um happiness and well-being for all beings. So I’m not I don’t have like a website about my teaching. If you

want to find my corporate work, it’s terma.asia. Terma is a again a coded word that I’m

using in my corporate work. You know what that means, Josh? Everybody else does it. What does it mean? It means a

secret teaching exactly what I told you I’m doing. So I’m advertising what I’m doing right out in front. It’s all clear. You can find me there. You can

come um visit us atthe.janna. community which is where we have a group

of very serious meditators and myself Vincent Horn Emily Horn are teaching Janna from all different perspectives.

Cassina Janna meta Janna Karuna Janna Brahma Vihara is the ninth Janna Vipasa

Janna. Come and learn all about the Janna with us. We’re leading a retreat January 2nd to 12th. It’s a 10-day

retreat is called the flavors of Janna. Our intention is to give you breadcrumbs for every single Janna. You’ll be able

to find your way back and deepen the practice as you wish when you’re not on retreat. Well, beautiful Brian. Thanks so much

for doing this and may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free.

Bye now. This be of some support

Published by josh dippold

IntegratingPresence.com

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