(Ai helps sum up nicely thus:) Zen and yoga teacher Frank Jude Boccio and I chat about the intersections of mindfulness, yoga, and Buddhist practice. Frank shares his journey from the punk scene in New York to decades of teaching meditation and yoga, influenced by Thích Nhất Hạnh and Zen traditions. We explore mindfulness of the body, contemplations on death, the breath as practice, challenges with meditation, and integrating awareness into daily life through micro-practices. Frank also reflects on sound meditation, student–teacher relationships, and the liberating power of aligning with impermanence and truth. [There’s also kind of a punk rock moment when my camera falls over]
0:00 – Introduction & weather chat
2:48 – Who is Frank Jude Boccio?
3:27 – Early life, punk scene, sister’s death, discovering Buddhist practice
4:24 – Influence of Thích Nhất Hạnh and Satipatthana
6:01 – Vietnamese Buddhist traditions (Mahayana & Theravada blend)
7:23 – Teaching mindfulness with a Mahayana heart
8:31 – Yoga background and integrating mindfulness
10:01 – Mindfulness Yoga explained
12:07 – Mindfulness of the body, inner smile practice, body image
14:14 – Elements practice & contemplation of death
16:12 – Reflections on mortality, impermanence, and non-fear
20:06 – The Five Remembrances & cancer diagnosis
23:01 – Breath and death awareness
24:07 – Zen story: breath and urgency
27:03 – Teacher-student relationships in Buddhist traditions
29:41 – Frank’s approach to teaching Anapanasati
31:16 – Shamatha practice distinctions
33:27 – Jhana controversies & Abhidhamma insights
36:14 – Challenges with basic breath practice
37:05 – Informal practice & micro-practices (tooth brushing, bells of mindfulness)
40:33 – Common challenges: controlling the breath
43:42 – Breath focus at nostrils, belly, and hara traditions
47:01 – Eyes open vs. closed meditation styles
48:26 – Sound meditation & equanimity
52:42 – Concentration vs. mindfulness: funnel vs. hourglass metaphor
55:17 – Earworms & pop music in meditation
56:12 – Humor and ease in Zen teaching
57:26 – Frank’s offerings
1:01:27 – Closing blessing & dedication of merit
Frank Jude Boccio’s Website: mindfulnessyoga.net
Book: Mindfulness Yoga: The Awakened Union of Breath, Body, and Mind (Wisdom Publications)
Publisher link | Amazon link
Articles/Essays: Boccio has contributed to Yoga Journal, Tricycle, Shambhala Sun, and anthologies like 21st Century Yoga and Freeing the Body, Freeing the Mind.
Audio: Death, Breath, and Awakening: From Punk To Zen And Mindfulness Yoga | Anapanasati Series With Frank Jude Boccio
Unedited transcript via YouTube:
welcome. This is Josh Depold of Integrating Presence and today I have Frank Jude Boshio with me. Frank, what’s
going on today? Uh it’s a pretty warm day here. I’m in Tucson and uh it’s between rains like in
in the summer we get like this heat that builds up with humidity and then there’s
a big storm and then for a few days it’s like really cool and nice and then it builds up again. And uh one of my one of
my friends was like saying this time it feels like it’s taking too long, you know, like as well as she put it for
play is going on too long. She just wants the rain, you know, and that’s how I think we’re all feeling.
Well, maybe there’s more tension building then. Um, but yeah, it’s it’s been hot here in Prague, too. Um, I
think we’re supposed to, Speaking of that, we’re supposed to get rain. Uh, they’re calling for a chance tomorrow and things will cool down a little bit,
but I don’t think anything like the Tucson heat. I I can’t imagine. And coming from Denmark, too, um, where it’s
really nice and cool. So I honestly in Missouri weather I’m not missing it at all honestly. But
Missouri was pretty humid right? Ah yes it’s really humid during the during the summers for the most part.
Really cold too in the winter but yeah everybody talks about like well he where you are it’s hot but it’s dry heat. And
I was like dry heat at 110 degrees is still hot. It’s like you’re in an oven
you know. Yeah. It’s like opening the oven up. Yeah. But what they don’t understand is that in the summer when it’s the hottest
is also when it’s the most humid. So yeah, and um a little bit of
technology here. We have swamp coolers. I mean obviously wealthier people have ACs, but like and so swamp coolers work
really well when it is hot and dry because what they do is they suck the hot dry in air in. They pass it through
this like organic material and then it blows into the house cool
moisture air, right? So, you have to keep your windows open, which I like because AC it’s so claustrophobic. But
when it’s humid, they’re not as effective. So, the time when you want it the most, they don’t really work as
well. It It’s called a swamp cooler. Yeah. Yeah. Evaporative cooler, but
Okay. Evaporative cooler. I have to check these out because in in Missouri, you know, it’s it’s Yeah. We want less
swamp. And people say it’s because of all the artificial uh corn or some I’ve just heard that recently. So much corn
gives off so much transpiration and that’s why a lot of um weird humidity in Missouri. I don’t know if there’s
anything to that, but either way, yeah, hot. So, so here here we are in in
wherever the weather is where you’re at listening to this, I hope it’s okay enough. And I’ll ask you the standard
question that I often do. And who is Frank and what kind of work does he do?
Well, Frank is uh it’s taken me a longer time because I
grew up at a time where we wanted to be assimilated, but um I’m second
generation Italian uh American and uh born in New York, raised in New York. Uh
went through uh the whole punk scene. I was a DJ, right? But what got me into
Buddhist practice was that I did have a half sister who was about 15 years older than me who died of uh cancer when I was
16. And uh it’s a very familiar story. I mean like I can’t believe how you more
and more whenever I read about things it’s like what leads people to practice often is some kind of loss. you know,
Dogen was because he was an orphan and the Buddha himself when he recognized that we’re all going to die, you know.
Um, so that engagement with like, all right, well, how do I want to live? what
is life for really um became very clear for me at 16 and it’s been a guiding
force and that probably kept me alive even during the punk scene because we things got pretty wild back in the 70s
and 80s but um there was always this foundation of zazen meditation you know
and um and then uh I had already practiced yoga but meeting Tiknad Han
and his presentation on the satipana which is a suta or a discourse where the
Buddha really gave his most deep mindfulness instructions and it has this
whole point about working with the body and I was like well up until that point I always thought of
my asa practice as a complement to meditation something to prepare for meditation but it was very clear that
the Buddha was saying this can be meditation And you know this is like in 19
uh when was it I guess 19 91 or two and that’s when I started to
really integrate and it was great because like up until that point I felt like there were these two different things and now it’s completely
integrated and I’ve been doing that since then. Um I became a teacher in
1995. Um, I was ordained as a Zen teacher uh
in 2007 and um, yeah, that’s what I’ve been doing.
Well, cool. I had no idea that Technahan I just not very familiar with his stuff
at all, but I had no idea he taught Sati Batana, which is usually a terra main stay. So, I
think in Vietnam, Vietnam used to be, you know, before it was a unified country, two separate kingdoms. And what
was interesting is the northern kingdom was in the Chinese cultural orbit but the southern kingdom was in the Indian
cultural orbit. So unique to all the countries in Asia, Vietnam got both transmissions. The Mahayana from China
and the Terravada from ultimately Sri Lanka. And so although Tiknad Han was in
the Lynchi lineage of Chan and Zen um
they also you know have this understanding like he’s he’s done retreats on the anopanis batana so I had
been practicing for a long time and like you said yeah of course this was all new
to me because I had been in a j up at that time more Japanese zen tradition
and they don’t look at anything you Terrain or from the poly cannon and um
so it was eye opening and it was it was great. Well, cool. And I have to give a shout
out to the Shifue Shifue Jiru at uh the Mid America Buddhist Association where I
where I’ve practiced back in Missouri, which I’m sure not a lot of Westerners know about him. He’s got a kung fu
background. He um well, not talking too much about his his background, but just
needless to say, he’s a Chan lineage holder in the Lingi a ling lineage
holder, too. And a lot of his teaching is for foundations of mindfulness. I think a lot of it has to do with him
first ordaining as a Thai monk and then switching to Cha. And so, it’s it’s a
really unique blend he’s got. Yeah. Yeah. It’s wonderful. I I often describe, you know, the way Thai taught
Tikknatan and therefore the way I teach is um when I’m teaching any of these
poly Buddhist practices, I’m teaching with a Mahayana heart.
Bodhicitta. Yes. Oh. So, well, um a few other things you said there. the the
mindfulness of the body, you know, that’s uh there’s like the six different layers in the satikutana suta and we
well we don’t hear much about uh the elements practice as much and we don’t
mindfulness of of death. I guess we hear it uh I would should say this um ground
contemplations to be more accurate uh which can be very graphic for some people. I I was listening to a monastic
um talking on a podcast recently and and just saying going to visit a corpse and he would get squeamish and start to to
pass out, you know. So So I I guess it can be really intense for a lot of people, but like you mentioned, you
know, coming through the Ducador, a lot of people are confronted with their own mortality in a very visceral, vivid way
really early on. Um so I I don’t know before we start getting into anapana I think with your
yoga background too um I’d like to hear a little bit more about um how the like
the those six levels or layers in the sativana kind of map to yoga and what kind of yoga you do and I was in the
same position too where I was using it to support my sitting practice. I had a like a weekly practice for years and I
quit during the lockdowns and switched to more chiong. But it really is a huge support. And of course we know the
historical Buddha and I’ll shut up here in just a second. Um he he was really into yoga um after you know when he met
his first teachers that taught him Janna um to master the Janna. It was predates
predates the Buddha too. So he was in complete mastery of we we’re assuming we don’t have many details from the canon
but we can only assume with his mastery of Janna or Diana that he was very well-versed with yoga.
Yeah. Yeah. I’m I you know the Buddha was a yogi you know and and my approach
is that there’s the following gayorg furstein actually that you know this
ocean of knowledge that we refer to as yoga maybe with a capital Y kind of a right then developed into three yogic
cultures right so Buddhism Hinduism and Ginism are yogic based right they’re all yogic
paths And each one has developed their own culture, you know, even architecture,
music, everything. And so um uh I have
you know the Buddha as a yogi as a as a an archetype for a yoga even in a lot of Indian you know like in Hindu temples
you see the statue of the Buddha meditating because that is the archetype. So uh I have no problem with
saying that the the noble eight-fold path is a yogic path you know and um
when we talk about satipana you know well first of all you asked this um my
approach I refer to as mindfulness yoga and I’m really adamant about that not
mindful yoga all yoga should be done mindfully right but like mindful yoga
the word mindful there is an adjective mindfulness is noun and so my the
difference here is that hopefully everybody is practicing trigonosa
triangle pose mindfully but I am practicing mindfulness
now in trigonosa right so it’s the prior you know practice it’s the root of the
practice is mindfulness as it says in the satipana the Buddha should practice while standing sitting lying down
walking and then he goes on to say while bending over while turning to the side while reaching up while putting your clothes on while defecating. So
everything right and um so that’s really my approach and I actually you know work
with all four what are traditionally known as the four foundations or establishments of mindfulness. Um I
often refer to them as the domains of mindfulness. The reason for that being like the term
foundation or establishment sounds like okay the body’s the first establishment and now
we’re going to build mindfulness on it. But it’s more accurate to say we’re bringing mindfulness to the domain or
area of experience called the body and then as you pointed
out the six things right so you you begin with the breath you know then you go to uh recognizing different postures
of the body different activities. So in a mindful in a mindfulness yoga class you can then right with just that begin
to notice oh when I’m in a spinal twist I feel the movement of breathing in this
part of my body but when I’m facing forward I feel it this way. Uh when I’m in a back bend I feel that my breath
does this to my body. When I’m in my forward bend it does this other thing. You’re beginning to see impermanence not
self- nature right? Because there’s no inherent nature to the breath. In fact, you begin to realize there’s no such
thing as a breath. There’s just breathing. So, the core teaching of the Buddha is right there, right from the
beginning, right? And then, as you pointed out, there’s the anatomical parts. And um here’s where I think
Tiknadhan is really offered us a very great gift. Uh
and I use both approaches. I actually uh have guided meditations on the the the
parts of the body as taught by the Buddha. It was to really get kind of equinimity and a more realistic view of
the body, right? Just go through the body observing it trying to contain or yoke any reactivity, right? because it’s
like as you know it’s like you know yeah observe the eyes but then also the mucus
you know and stuff like that but Tiknadhan noticing that there were such
a lot of issues around body image body dysmorphia in the west he took the
concept of the inner smile from the chiong tradition and had smiling to the
parts of the body and sometimes I’ll do I’ll do that as a guided meditation in
chioasana And one time in a public I’ll never forget this because it was
feedback from me at how transforming this practice could be I was uh offering
a lecture in Raleigh, North Carolina and it was a public discourse and I included
a smiling to the body parts and at the end the first person to speak up was
this woman all the way in the back tears in her eyes. She said like several months before that she had been
diagnosed with cancer and doing that meditation was the first time she felt safe in her body you know so it’s like
powerful then there’s the elements and again in the Buddhist tradition it was
the elements as understood by the yogic philosophical tradition you know earth
water fire and space and I do that but I think if the Buddha were alive now he would also work with the 32 major
elements that make of the body according to our system, right? We’re carbon based organisms, you know, we’re got all this
water which is made up of hydrogen and all that. Where did these elements come from? The big bang and supernovas. So,
like again, we’re seeing the notself nature, right? As you pointed out, uh eventually we get
to the decomposition of the body. And I will say I do not do this in a drop in yoga class,
but with my senior students and um on retreats, if it feels right, I might do
the nine contemplations. I might not get very graphic if they’re, you know, but like if we’ve been together for 10 days
and we’ve been practicing, I feel I can do that with my senior students,
two of which are now very close to ordination to become dominant teachers themselves. when we get when after a few years when
we went through the Satipatana for the second or third time when it came to that part I had them watch videos of the
um the corpse farms that the forensic scientists used and they’re really graphic but it you know as you said the
monks back then would go to the grounds and look at these bodies you know so yeah I do that but I also then work with
the other domains as well I sensation mind and perceptions
dharmas. Yeah, it’s uh yeah, I’ve even heard that
they used to sit on the uh uh decomposing corpse bodies. I’ve even met a monk who’s um who made one of these um
austerity robes for you know one of the datangas where they take cloth from a
dead body and then they make a robe traditional. Yeah. They would make their robes out of the the wraps from the corpses. We we you get people that are
really clinging to you know how they present themselves and how they have to have certain things and so that would be
a really interesting austerity. I know for in my own personal practice um whenever I do contemplate death I just
come right into my body. I mean it has this immediacy about it that okay yeah
all these things that we that I think is so important they just a lot of times they just fall off you know
if if we know we I mean what kind of guarantee is there at the end um
ultimately that we won’t that we will make it through the next half breath we can’t I mean unless someone has psychic
powers and can determine kind of with more certainty and I don’t know how that works when they’re going to die most of
us we don’t have that guarantee of when we’re going to be how and where. A Korean Zen master Kbong I think it was
Kbongsim. I could be wrong with the name though. And you know he said something like a life a lifetime of a hundred
years depends on this one inb breath right because and as I point out it’s
like you know we’re all born our first breath is an inb breath. We’re all going to die with an exhalation. So, in
response to people who think watching your breath is boring, I go like when you really consider that there’s no guarantee you’re going to have another
inb breath after the next ex exhale, you’re you’re going to pay more attention, you know, and and I want to
say I mean like we’re talking about all this stuff. It’s like if there are people who are not familiar listening in on this, it’s not morbidity or morbid
kind of fascination with death that we have. If you look I mean like look at the Daly Lama look at most Buddhist
teachers there’s a lot of joy and it comes from as it says in the heart sutra
the the ultimate gift of the dharma is the gift of non-fear and so focusing and
and putting attention on the fact that we are mortal beings we are going to die
when you come to reconcile with that all the energy that goes into trying to deny
that consciously or unconsciously is now liberated And it’s very nourishing. It’s
it’s it brings us to joy. You know, it’s a it’s a really important distinction to make because it it’s it’s
um I look at it a lot of times as not taking any moment for granted. How much of the time am I on autopilot just going
through the day not realizing that every single moment is precious and not to be
taken for granted when this is contemplated? That’s another huge benefit it gives you know um to not take
anything for granted that every moment is precious and it really has an immediiacy um to our thing and then like
you said that truth you know when we’re in alignment with that truth that inevitability uh being in alignment with
with truth makes uh can bring great joy to the heart too just like the changing
nature what is um subject to arise is subject to cease when we’re in alignment
with that truth, it can it brings happiness almost on its own sometimes. This being I love that you use the word alignment
because I know there’s there’s scholars who question this etmology, but like the
word dooka, right? I hate that it was translated as suffering by the first translators because when you hear the
Buddha say life is suffering, it feels so overwhelming and and not true. My life
isn’t suffering. I am not so you know but do ca wrong space bad space right
the image of an axle not directly in the center of a wheel leads you to understand that what he’s basically
saying is life is stressful you know if you think about Iron Age India it’s probably a wooden wheel on a cart drawn
on dirt roads by an ox if you’re not aligned with reality if you’re not aligned in the center you it’s going to
be a bumpy ride right So, we want to align ourselves with reality. And the
reality is, as the five remembrances remind us, you know, we’re aging. We can’t avoid all illness. We’re going to
die. Everything we love and uh and think we own, we’re going to be separated
from. But that fifth one, that it’s our actions that we are, you know, and that
that there’s no way to avoid the consequences of our actions really puts the the emphasis on that. And many times
I say that the five remembrances are probably the most single
practice that has really made a big influence on me because when I was diagnosed like
with with cancer in 2019 uh
other men it was prostate cancer other men that was going through treat with me with me saw something different asked me
about it and I ended up teaching the meditation doing all this stuff because quite frankly I wasn’t afraid,
you know, I didn’t like the my doctor gave me these brochures, you know, for the newly diagnosed and all of them
begins with the assumption that you’re fearful or angry or depressed. And it’s like I’m of the nature to die. There’s
no way to avoid it. You know, I’m of I’m of the nature to have illness. There’s no way to avoid illness. So, with that
accepted, just do the next thing. You know, these have been a huge um help in my
practice, too. One of the things is it prepares us for that. So it’s not like it comes out of the blue and hits us as
a shock. I can remember being so devastated by some losses in my life. But contemplating that it’s inevitable
that all relationships too end in estrangement or death. So when that time comes, it’s not like uh getting hit
broadside. It’s like okay, the heart and mind have been prepared for this. We we’re we’re comfortable with this well
getting more comfortable with this inevitability. So it’s just like training with anything else that the
heart and mind gets trained. And that self- responsibility of realizing or I I
mean at least having faith in intentionality and and action has consequences be it skillful or
unskillful. You know this self- responsibility can be so empowering as well. It doesn’t have to be this this
huge burden that I can just you know get out of my actions but no taking self-
responsibility is a really an empowering movement. And um so with that I going
back to the um again this mortality. I think one of the ways we can get into the breath here uh for anapana and how
you teach it and what anything you want to say about it is there is this mindfulness of death practice that’s
really accessible with the breath if I’m remembering right Bikuanalio and if I oversimplify he’s I think he points out
the fact that the four foundations of mindfulness is attending you know attend um uh so you’re you’re you’re attending
to these things too and I forget exactly that Yeah, the establishment foundation. I always thought that was some there’s a
problematic aspect of, you know, layer by layer, level by layer level. But
remind me again what the the word you used. And then but with the breath, um you um each breath in, we don’t know if
we’re going to make it, you know, to the next one or even the the finishing of that. And nor the the the out breath as
well. And even if we do, we’re one breath closer to our mortality, right?
So that’s uh one way to just use the breath with that. But so yeah. Yeah. I think it’s funny when even as a
child way before I knew like had heard of the Buddha, I I was like why do why does everybody
get so excited at the you know New Year’s celebration or birthday celebrations? It just means they’re
close to dying. Um but yeah um the the breath thing is
really makes me think about this this very silly story but it it’s in the Zen
tradition of of a student telling his teacher but I think this is relevant
because what I see in contemporary yoga and some of the Buddhist contemporary
cult you know communities is this uh desire to be special right and have
special experiences and everything else. So this is an old story where the student goes to the Zen master and goes,
“Come on, you know, you’re having us watch our breath, but there’s something really esoteric, right? There’s
something else, you know, and the teacher goes, no, really, this is it.” He goes, “But it’s so boring.” So they
they happen for the purpose of the story to be by a fountain or something. So the master takes the kid and puts his head
under the water and holds him there for a while and then pulls him out and the guy goes like, and he goes, “Did you
find that boring? That’s a great one. Yeah, I love that.
And that that’s actually the one of the huge challenges I have with it is, you know, that it is not that interesting.
Um, yes, you can get into some subtleties when the breath gets more subtle and I’m practicing more in the
Pak tradition in the samuta thing now where I’m working towards a nimit and I still haven’t got nimmita after all
these years. Well, I mean I haven’t been practicing this version too much and there’s a whole thing of um you know
basudi maga janna and suta janna and I’m open to exploring
all these and different various aspects of it but yeah it’s um by its very
nature the breath is a neutral thing and it’s great if I’m all amped up on
emotions that aren’t helpful or you know have a lot of restlessness then it helps
you know can calm and of course we can bring the energy up on like with an inb breath
lower the energy down with more emphasis on the outreath right but you know that’s right uh and and I don’t know how
much I want to go seek out a zen master but of course we hear in other spiritual traditions this um is a expedient way is
to really become more and more intimate with death are very dangerous situations
and I’m not I’m not really promoting ing this obviously or things like crazy wisdom tradition which I was just
talking to someone here the other day how I feel that has to be done really carefully and to the right people at the
right time. It’s just not a one-sizefits-all uh teaching. Yeah, I’m I’m
uh seeing so much the damage that that has been, you know, justified by that
kind of tradition that and even some of the way the the guru relationship. I’m
not so sure it’s a good fit for Westerners uh in general, but like yeah,
I’ve always been a little skeptical of that. It’s interesting, you know, um
there’s really three different student teacher relationships found within the Buddhist cultures, right? And um you
know the terrain, it’s the kalyan mittita, the the spiritual friend, it’s like the sherpa guiding you, right? You
don’t ask him who to marry or anything like that, right? And then in the Zen tradition, it’s almost more like the um
uh in the feudal system where there’d be like an apprentice to the master and you just spend a lot of time and you absorb
stuff. But only in Tibetan Buddhism is the llama, which means guru, a guru
relationship, you know, and um you know, maybe it’s because I was a punk rocker and all that, but I was that that is
something I’m almost allergic to. And the way I my my relationship with my students is a kind of mixture of this
kalana mita and the you know zen kind of approach because
I I following my Korean teacher Samuinim who figured all right you know he came
from Korea to the west and he’s like westerners need more data or information
than we might get in an Asian Zen tradition But he also was not gonna
like, as he said, completely spoon feed. You had to kind of just pay attention and observe. No one taught me how to,
you know, invite the gong at the temple. I was just told to do it. And the only
feedback I got is that if someone else was told to do it after that, I probably didn’t do it right. So pay attention, you know, and eventually learned by
internalizing it. So I I try to blend those two approaches.
Yeah. Very cool. I got to do Colche in South Korea uh at Musangsa and that was
one of the most profound experiences I’ve ever had and I really enjoyed the the the Kan Kongan practice there with a
a couple different masters actually and really something quite uh profound and
special. I don’t want to use that word special, but compared to what we’re used to in the west,
immersing in that deep practice and me who’s often verbose and wanting to to
speak a lot and give impart information through the voice, having to answer
non-verbally was just um an eye openener, I guess. So, yeah, there’s not
much I can really say so much about it other than you have to just go do it, you know.
Okay. So do you teach um students the anopana uh with either from the anopana
sati suta these 16 layers of or h how do
you teach it and um yeah um I uh
I I include it in in my teaching in general but when I have like um people
who are in a deeper dharma study um for for one calendar year
we work through the 16 like the 16 broken into the four tetra rods um and
we just go through it you know and practice and then they uh keep practice
journal um we look at different approaches too like you know we look at
ticknot han’s commentary and we look at uh I think it was bub’s
um and read sutas that you from the polycanon where the Buddha is talking
about it and commenting on it and all. Um we do an a year on the satipana.
Um so you know we we go as deep as possible over the course of a year in these in these uh teachings. I I want to
point out something that you mentioned before because in in my dharma training program uh I don’t call it five years I
call it five segments. you know, if you really devoted yourself, you could get it through in five years, but I’ve never
had a student do it in five years. Um because the later ones take more time.
The first two can easily be done in actually the first three, but it’s the last two that take longer sometimes. Um
the first year we actually just emphasize shamata practice.
And I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the book by Richard Shankman, but when you talked about like the facid maga and
and all that like I think it’s one of the reasons why I spend time for that
year looking at Shamatha practice and we use Richard’s book is that much of the
contemporary confusion arises because a lot of people don’t understand that there is a distinction
between the suta tradition as Shankman calls it and the commentarial tradition
and you know the way I feel is like if you resonate with one more than the
other great but know it you know make it a conscious thing and if you’re going to integrate do it consciously what happens
is because there’s not a conscious understanding these two a lot of what appears to be contradictory things might
be you know and that that’s where people get confused it it really is an important point I
there is kind of a Janna a controversy too, you know, whether um what
constitutes Jon and what doesn’t. Even Nimitita can be kind of a trigger word
for some people depending this context. I mean, Nimita does just mean sign, but in this context with kind of the
commentarial or visi. It’s um yeah, and I I see kind
of pros and cons to to each of these sides. One thing I would love to see and I I don’t think it’s going to be too
long now is the commentaries and subcommentaries in in the polycanon. We
don’t have full English translations of these yet. You know, um one thing I will say in my own practice is why I switched
to this kind of uh pac tradition for now is most everything that I’ve been taught
especially in the Thai force tradition bajan cha which I’m forever grateful for has helped me so much. It aligns more
kind of with my personality I guess and and practice style and just the way in the world and kind of more earthiness
practicality stuff u but it’s all concept you know in in this pak
tradition it’s based kind of on abidama and um which is another huge kind of controversy or not controversy but
people have a lot of ideas about it and then vudi maga this huge massive
meditation manual uh really in depth is that there that approach is going into
ultimate uh discern once once you go through of the samata phase which they
usually want you to have as much as possible of the 40 objects in achieving
Janna and that version of Janna in all of them you know pretty much I’m sorry
take that back there’s certain ones that you can some only result in access concentration but some of them will go
into certain levels of Janna and some of them will go all eight or whatever and um unless you’re a dry insight
practitioner then they starts you off the four elements. But anyway, so after you’ve and then not only that, but the
mastery, so there’s five different ways to master um each is it each Janna?
Yeah, I think each Janna has to do they have five levels of mastery, not just achieving it, but so anyway, and then
once you’re done with all that, then you get into discerning ultimate materiality, which uh I mean, if you
just talk to this somebody on the street, they might think you’re mad because you’re getting into discerning directly with the mind these kalapas,
these indivisible units of materiality that are supposed that said that are there regardless of whether or not
there’s an observer. So, it’s just mind-blowing. And not only that, but each one discerning all these different characteristics of or features
of each one, right? Okay. So that’s that’s just the materiality. Then you get into discerning ultimate mentality
and basically it’s slicing and dicing all the I guess flavors of consciousness in
their constituents. You know, this is seen directly moment by moment with the mind, mind, moment by mind moment. And
it’s just so profound. And so all the other dharma that I know is compared to
that is is is a concept. They’re helpful concepts, but until I can um see and
know this directly for myself, I can’t really blow it off. That’s how that’s how I feel. And that’s why I’ve taken it on just as a background. I know people
probably getting sick of me saying that now because I’ve said it so much, but yeah, I think you know when you’re like
the the the analysis of experience even in how many
stages in one perception they talk about, it’s just pretty profound. And I always joke it’s like and they some they
did this without MRIs, you know, like seeing how and I say people that are into um
neuroscience, they they should probably, you know, be familiar with some of this. But this is not again I have took a
class with Abidama, but that’s all scholarly theoretical stuff. I’m I’m practicing with people who are who are
seeing this and knowing this in their own direct practice. So gets really profound. But anyway, setting that
aside. Um, so the the the this the Sati pasan Sati Patana I’m sorry not the
anapana I’m going to go into um um any other aspects of this like what I guess
maybe what challenges do you do you find with students who um just I mean we’re
talking about basic breath meditation here too right you know just starting off what are some of the the challenges
you see and how you deal with this in general and then one of the other things I like to know um because um taught that
the more continuity we can have of the breath even throughout the day the more mindfulness of breathing
keeping it going you know um if you have any tips for that as well throughout the
day let me start with that be because I probably would forget to add this on and I get this again comes from ticknadhan
um and I and I share this with all my students along with your formal practice which
you know is the meditation um you you want to try in what’s called
informal practice strategies. And so Tiknadhan offered one in particular that
uh bells of mindfulness, right? So I’m doing something around the house and
I hear my phone. I stop what I’m doing and I take three conscious breaths
before answering the phone. Right? Um I usually tell students, we all have phones, so start with that. And once
you’ve internalized that, look in your own environment for other things that can be used as bells of mindfulness. I
live close to a railroad crossing. So the train whistle is another one of my bells of mindfulness, right? So things
like that just bring you to presence, you know, and using the breath because
again, you know, it’s like there’s nothing more intimate and present than that. You can’t have the last breath
again, you know, this is it. And then the other one uh is
I don’t I forget if Tai calls them this, but I’m I’ve gotten to calling them micro practices. All right. So, one
micro practice that I usually recommend to my students start with because they’re already doing it is we’re
supposed to be brushing our teeth for two minutes when we do it, right? For two minutes, let go of everything other
than brushing your teeth, right? And it brings this intimate practice. Just last
week, in fact, one of my students, a new student, um, got back to me the next
day. She was so excited. She said, “Last night, I brushed my teeth as a microp practice and I realized I’d never felt
the bristles of my toothbrush before.” Right? Because, as she put it, I was
always somewhere else in my mind, right? and and and I shared with her. I says, “Well, don’t be surprised if your dental
hygienist even notices an improvement because, you know, if you’re paying attention to something, you’re probably
doing a better job.” I like the fact that you use the word attending. I I think Analyio uses that. Attending is
paying attention. So sometimes when people hear pay attention, it sounds
strict or like a discipline. So it’s just like attend to this.
Are you there? Sorry. this um yes I am. It’s just
my laptop here and this has happened before um has uh I spilled coffee on it
at one point and so now I’m have to use my my cell phone um as a as a camera. So um apparently
something wasn’t being attended to too well there. No, this this this this
right this micro practice is is really um great because I find myself looking
at um trying to look out a window a lot of times when I’m brushing my teeth or
trying to wow the in the society we have how much we try to um multitask which we
know is not really possible at all. Yeah. Neurologically really possible.
Yeah. Well, I’m having technical difficulties with the camera here. Um, it should it should come back on
here in in a second. Um Um, well, I think actually in instead of me
trying to to troubleshoot the tech right now, why don’t we start wrapping up? Um,
so the audio will still be okay here. Okay. Um, yeah, let me let me answer the question. No, because I the first
uh obstacle you you asked like when people come to Anapanosi is
um and I hear this a lot. I mean it’s like as soon as people start attending to the breath they find themselves
trying to manipulate it and that can become an obstacle. When
Bikuubi teaches long breath, short breath in a way he almost teaches it as
a kind of Buddhist praiyama. He says play with it first. See what does a long
breath feel like? What does a short breath? So I think you know like when I first read his commentary I was like
whoa. I was always taught not to manipulate the breath, you know, but I find I think it’s a really smart move
because it’s like you’re going to most beginners find that they lean in that
direction anyway. So, let them really at it, explore and experiment and then it’s
a little bit easier to let go because you’ve explored it, you know. But I think that that is definitely like the
number one issue that comes up people are asked to attend to their breath. I I changed my mind here. So yeah,
there’s there’s there’s some few things here to to get into and that is the huge one too. Um when we first start and
Theosiku, you know, Ajan Jeff, he uses this a lot in his his short talks online
and he’s you you can you use the natural breath, but there’s no need to if it
doesn’t feel comfortable. So he recommends changing it. You know, if if if longer breaths feel more comfortable,
do longer breaths. If shorter breaths feel comfortable, do shorter breaths. So, yeah, like you’re saying, play with
it to to be the whole thing is supposed to be pleasurable. Um, I mean, eventually, right? I mean, there’s
things where we can’t um there’s all kinds of things that will that that can come up, but I I do that.
And but the thing is though, this is a real issue a lot of times about what
controlling the breath. Okay. Uh I I find myself controlling the breath. How do I not do that? Um, sometimes it’s
just say, “Oh, skip it. I’m just going to control the breath for now. It’s all right.” This is the one thing though I
like about this on upon a spot. You know, it’s uh there’s some there’s some
advantages to it. And one of them is that you can’t really control it here, right? It doesn’t feel like I’m in
charge of it right here that I’m going to now move or, you know, um there I’d
say take it back. There’s there’s less options for control. Also, there’s a subtlety. Um, you know,
as amazing as feeling the breath throughout the entire body is and how helpful it is for me at certain points,
it it um when the mind and body gets really calm, that can be actually fairly
gross. I mean, a lot of times the breath just is hardly accessible at all. Other times, when really tuned in, settled,
then I mean, okay, now I’m paying attention to it in my nostrils. I’m paying attention to my throat. Okay.
Then, oh, something in my gut and then my chest and then the expansion. So, there’s so many different potential
perceptions and how much change happens. But if I’m doing a samata practice, I
don’t want to be doing um a lot of investigation in the body and a lot of changes, right? So, that’s one of the
advantages I feel of that. Um, I think towards the back of the body too, uh, if
I’m paying attention in the back of the body, there’s less room for me to feel like I’m in control and, uh, you know,
manipulating the breath and things like this too. Yeah. When I’m when I’m emphasizing shamata, it’s like I I definitely do
that, but but being in the Nen tradition, most of the time it’s it’s the belly. Yes. Dantienne is that what some some
call it. Yeah. And what remind me the reason for that again? And I mean that’s a huge energy source right and a huge
portion of stability too tradition it’s called the har and um like in if any you know people who learn
any martial arts or even actually um things like shiatsu
they’re encouraged to really move from the har and it is a really powerful
thing. I remember one time being massaged by this woman who was like she looked like she might have been 90 lbs
dripping wet or something. But when she leaned into me, it felt like a a bulldozer, you know, really got deep
work and all that. And if she was trying to use her arms and muscles, it would be very fatiguing. But
she moves from Nahara. And so yeah, that’s um I remember Daido Lori once
saying that he would actually if you know like had heard that like if people really were
horror centered if they did something that created embarrassment their belly got warm
instead of their face flushing that they’re so centered there you know but I think you know I I joke about how like
there’s the school that’s the eyes closed eyes open right at the nostrils at the belly
And you know, I I kind of joke about it because my experience is um the reason
why the the the school that says eyes closed is because you don’t want to be
distracted. And the Zen tradition eyes open because they don’t want to fall asleep. And my experience is eyes open
or closed, I can get distracted. Eyes, you know, and I can also fall asleep. It doesn’t matter ultimately. Um but for
certain you know since depends on where you read but like up to 90% or so of our
our sensory information is through our eyes. When I’m doing shamata I close my eyes and I focus on my nose. I’m
bringing that narrow thing. But when I’m doing shikantaza you know just sitting
it’s in the belly because it’s more spacious and expansive you know and my eyes are partially open right. Um and
the reason for that is we we’re Zen is much more uh a thisworldly orientation.
It’s not the world renouncing of the terraodin. Right? And so what we’re really doing is trying to
change our relationship. Right? So eyes open. All the sense doors are open but
they’re guarded as opposed to closed and and that’s it. Yeah.
Yeah. The the eyes open thing. I don’t do it as much. Yes, I feel I can go deeper and more subtle with eyes closed
like you’re saying in some but the eyes open that’s how we face most of our life you know so if we’re there’s a huge
there can be a certain time of practice I I find in my experience a huge contrast there between going really deep
within with eyes closed and then meeting the world and seeing all the shenanigans in the world and such vivid um I don’t
detail you know sometimes I’m I’m grateful that I’m I’m nearsighted and I’m too stubborn to wear my glasses
because I know how stressful the world is. And then to just see all that really sharp and clear, it’s just even more
stressful sometimes. Um yeah, when I when I sit obviously I don’t have my glasses on and uh it’s
pretty blurry which is actually you know it’s like we’re encouraged in Zen to keep a soft unfocused gaze because you
don’t want to be trapped. Let’s say there’s a particular pattern on the floor. So the instruction is you know
your eyes are gazing down which actually calms the body apparently 45 degree angle but also imagine you’re looking to
the horizon so it’s like a soft unfocused gaze but all the senses are open and speaking of the senses I wonder
have you done much with sound meditation at all? You know, I’ve done sound baths
and things like that, but are you talking about um there’s a thing called the nata sound or this this really I
mean I I I always wonder how if this is different from tonitis because if you
really quiet a lot of times there’s this really kind of silver hum in the background that some people have called
the nata sound. Now, do you mean internally or do you mean externally like with um singing bowls and
Well, well, sing I mean I know sound baths and singing bowls have become very popular and and they’re lovely. I’m
talking about like when the Buddha the Buddha’s most succinct instruction and it was an advanced instruction in the
hearing. Let there just be the hearing, right? So I’d be sitting here
playing right now, you know, um, cultivating the capacity
to hear bird song and jackhammers, the same level of equinimity, not grasping
after one, not pushing away the other. Also, can I just hear and when it’s gone, no
more earworm kind of like hearing it over and over again. Um it’s a it’s a
really powerful practice and it’s said that it could be one of the most powerful um because it’s related to the
element space. Like each of our sensory organs is related to one of the five elements. So you’re talking about space
sound. Um so that’s what I mean like I go up to the Mount Lemon, you know, and
there’s a brook up there and just listening. I mean, water sounds constantly changing and then occasionally cracking in the woods,
maybe some deer or something and just immersing myself in the sound.
Oh, yeah. It is. Um, there’s a lot to say about this, too. Um, I know during a
part of my early practice, this was a really challenging thing because I wanted my quiet, you know, my my my
meditation space and how oh my gosh, I can’t believe they’re making so much noise. I just want some peace and quiet,
right? uh and to today it’s uh when when they do register it’s the the emotional
charge I think has been has been leveled so much compared to years and years ago
I would find but yes this this notion of um of equinimity of of hearing these
contrasting things we can hear like a bird song and think oh that’s so lovely right and be attached to it and want to
hear really pleasant sounds think about you know someone that we um that we f that we really love hearing their voice
or some beautiful piece of music and how um we can be attached to that. Not that that’s necessarily a a wrong thing, but
then a really harsh grading sound and maybe it’s a sound that’s linked to a
memory that’s really not pleasant and actually can be almost retraumatizing
sometimes for some people. So, we have this huge emotional spectrum uh with
sounds too. And then but we also have the capacity like you said to say okay like in the bajia suta I think that’s
the one you’re you’re referencing you know in this in the herd is just the
herd in the scene is just the scene it is really profound we notice that we have an organ ear organ obviously and
then there’s a sound and when these meet there’s a sound consciousness so there’s also a difference between hearing and
listening right so listening is an active thing and hearing is is can be an
an inactive thing. It’s a little bit easier with looking and seeing to to notice this. But yes, because usually
we’re focused on the object of awareness, the object of attention. Little at least in my experience,
there’s it takes more prompting to say, “Oh, there’s awareness of the object.
There’s this capacity to have knowing what the that okay, we have this um
hearing capability. We’re just usually focused on what we’re hearing. And of course, this common thing amongst
meditators, okay, getting the perception how faulty it can be and thinking we’re hearing one thing when it’s actually
something completely different. I’m sure we have all these kinds of stories of that during meditation.
Well, the beauty though is also that you know like if you’re doing concentration practice, sound is definitely an
obstacle. But here mindfulness, it doesn’t become an obstacle
train very much so. Yes. Um especially if we do open awareness things because it’s
it’s just moment by moment whatever we’re noticing then becomes the object of of meditation. Really helpful when
driving too because we’re we can h potentially deal with so many different stimuli on real rapidly changing basis.
I love that you just mentioned that because the image that I use when I’m lecturing um on a draw on a whiteboard
um concentration I draw what looks like the letter V but I say imagine this is a
funnel that’s been sealed off right at the top is the drunken monkey stung by
the scorpion as the mind is described in the upanachads and you focus on one thing right mindfulness catches the mind
wandering and keep coming back if you’re lucky if you’ve got the conditions appropriate you get to the bottom of the
funnel that’s onepointedness. If it lasts, it’s samadei and you’re not aware of other things, right? But with
mindfulness, I draw like what looks like an hourglass. The top part you still have to concentrate, but to that what uh
the commentary tradition calls stabilization and then the bottom is opening like you said, right? And it’s
like at the at the beginning of the the the bottom part, it’s maybe the first
domain of mindfulness and then you go through the second and third. by the bottom it is the choiceless awareness
open you know I call it the big sky mind and then it’s just one thing after the other you know but to you know the the
thing with the sound that’s really difficult is and I do this every time when I’m introducing it I’ll go like
dun and every time somebody has to go dun dun but even the people that don’t
hear that in their head and I go but I didn’t say that part right that’s why it’s like it’s way more advanced than
people expected It’s like what could be easier than listening? Well, it it’s it’s it’s huge, too. And
I’m going to use that hourglass metaphor if I may. That’s great. I love that. Um
earworms, you know. Oh, wow. Did I not realize when I until I started meditating how how you can have a song
play over and over and over again, you know, and then once I cut off a lot of music in my life, um especially ones
that are lyric- based, one you go into a store in America and you hear this pop
song I haven’t heard in 10 years and then next thing I know it’s in my head for a week, you know. So this is how
powerful and how emotionally loaded these songs are, too. how much emotionally invested I was in a lot of
these songs, too. So, yeah. And they’re designed with that earworm in effect.
They want people to keep they call it a hook, right? A hook. That’s exactly what it is, you know? So,
I was the assistant to a Zen priest once on a retreat in uh in Italy in a Cisi,
right? And uh in one particular sit, my mind was all over the place, but just
like just thinking about, you know, did I do that right? Blah blah blah. And then the priest that I was assisting and
I went for a walk and we’re walking in the forest, you know, and he wanted to like process how the retreat’s been
going. But the first thing he said was that he had the bridge of some Led Zeppelin song in his head the whole
time. I was like, and it made me feel a lot better. I think, all right, here’s this. It was hysterical.
I I do love a lot of these Zen teachers how they just can put people almost instantly to ease. remember the first
time I did a um a formal tea ceremony there and then I later I saying you know I I really enjoyed that thank you I just
I just didn’t know how to act you know and he goes oh me either
I was like ah that’s kind of really those are the best teachings when they come exactly
well this has been uh quite a joy and an honor and a pleasure too um talking shop
a lot here as well and I’m glad we got into some of these particulars of Anapana and um yeah, this I’m I’m I’m
glad I’m having a chance to do this series and I appreciate you coming on to talking about these things. Yeah,
I’ve enjoyed it a lot too. And uh I I want you to be aware given what we’re talking about. My t-shirt says all
tattoos are temporary tattoos. ah very
even even my like often I I’ve got a collection of t-shirts and many of them are domic like subtle some more than
others you know uh one says death is only the end if you think the story is about you
but yeah Anicha I like this one a lot very cool so with that um tell people do
you have these t-shirts on your on your site and What what else do I know you’re
you’re an author you have you have Dharma books right you have Dharma books you’re of course you’re a teacher u so
tell people about how they can get in touch with you if you’re taking on new students u what kind of courses you have
coming up anything at all you want to let people know what you have going on maybe even in the works and then a after
that take take the audience out um on a final message
okay yeah um I do have one book that is the core where of bringing the the sati
batana and the anopanosati towards um asa practice and it’s called
mindfulness yoga and it’s published by wisdom uh it’s available anywhere you
know like amazon if you use that but independent stores you can get it directly from wisdom and I have writings
in other books um one that I’m really happy with is uh it’s in this book
called 21st century yoga that looks at culture and history and all that and
another one that Michael Stone put together um that was uh freeing the body
freeing the mind and that’s a a fairly long essay that goes through the four foundations or domains of mindfulness.
Um I am currently I don’t have anything like I I’m always open to travel. I
don’t like to travel as much as I used to pre- pandemic. Um sadly a lot of the studios that were bringing me in um
closed during the pandemic. So if there’s anybody out there who would like to have a workshop or a weekend kind of
thing. I’m always available but you know uh my website is mindfulness yoga.net
And at that website uh there’s access to
uh blogs that have some of them are simply posts to the blog others are um
articles that I’ve written for yoga journal tricycle shambala sun things like that
and I also am doing a online yoga class. What happened out of the pandemic was
our the studio that I was with that ended up end closing like everybody else went online and because I had students
around the world when the studio opened and then it ended up closing because
people didn’t come back uh I stayed online and decided I would go to the old
school when I started practicing yoga class was an hour and 45 minutes you got
a nice long shavasana and there was pranayyama and meditation. So in an hour
and 45 minutes class maybe 45 minutes to
an hour is asa body practice and the rest is meditation prraiyama and
relaxation and that’s just um once a week on Sundays in the morning um and
people could always email me for resources or anything else through my website and mindfulness yoga.net.
Well, very cool. Um, thank yeah the the pandemic it’s it it changed a lot of
things, didn’t it? Yeah, it’s for good for good ill and otherwise, you know,
but it is what it is, right? Yeah. I was scheduled to um do a tour of four yoga studios in Ontario
in um April 2020. Things shut down in March.
I know I had a couple meditation events booked around St. Louis around that time too and even after everything reopened
it just it just yeah that didn’t happen. So it’s wild how this how how life
unfolds sometimes. Yeah. Well Frank thanks thanks again so much and may may everyone listening to this
may your yoga practice and mindfulness practice and anapana practice be for your liberation welfare and benefit and
for that of all beings. May all beings everywhere realize awakening, be free.
Bye.
Integrating Presence 