Conveying Contemplativeness And Practical Mysticism With Keith Kristich

On August 23, 2023, Keith Kristich and I talked about slowing down, practical mysticism, practices, opening to what is, truth, the divine, emptiness, nothingness, somethingness, form and formlessness, space between thought and sound, buzzing in ears from too much caffeine before meditation, silence, listening to inner sound of silence, sky as metaphor for our true nature, awareness practices, Rupert Spira, essentialness, ego, conceit, integration, contemplative prayer, letting go, objectless awareness, monasticism, words/language, famous Christian mystics like Father Thomas Keating, Thomas Murton, Anthony de Mello, Meister Eckhart, Jakob Böhme

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The September 23, 2023 Summit mentioned: https://contemplativeprayersummit.com

Find Keith at: https://closerthanbreath.com

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It was not mentioned but I was reminded of the following prayer I including parts I wonder about as well as all the beautiful bits:

May all beings everywhere
Plagued by sufferings of body and mind
Obtain an ocean of happiness and joy
By virtue of my merits.

May no living creature suffer,
Commit evil, or ever fall ill.
May no one be afraid or belittled,
With a mind weighed down by depression.

May the blind see forms
And the deaf hear sounds,
May those whose bodies are worn with toil
Be restored on finding repose.

May the naked find clothing,
The hungry find food;
May the thirsty find water
And delicious drinks.

May the poor find wealth,
Those weak with sorrow find joy;
May the forlorn find hope,
Constant happiness, and prosperity.

May there be timely rains
And bountiful harvests;
May all medicines be effective
And wholesome prayers bear fruit.

May all who are sick and ill
Quickly be freed from their ailments.
Whatever diseases there are in the world,
May they never occur again.

May the frightened cease to be afraid
And those bound be freed;
May the powerless find power,
And may people think of benefiting each other.

For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world.

By Shantideva

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Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)

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The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:

easiest way

[Music]

homeless and welcome this is Josh Dipple

of integrating presence and today I have

Keith christish christach well how’s it

going today kid and you might be doing

well happy to be with you Josh cool what

I usually do is I throw it back to the

guest and say who’s Keith and what does

he do

yeah that’s a good question an evolving

answer isn’t it for us all yeah I mean I

think the I’m a buffalonian so I’m in

the states and live and work as a way of

serving the world to help people slow

down

um the world is too fast and the world

is an off-centered place and so my whole

approach to spirituality to meditation

is to help people slow down and really

reconnect with the true self and to that

Divine spark that peace of God that is

alive and well within us that we far too

often Overlook so

well cool and

from what I understand you’re into

mysticism and especially practical

mysticism this intrigues me especially

in today’s world of technology and like

you’re saying the fast-pacedness and I

guess tell me a little bit about it in

general and then how it applies to

helping people slow down and take things

in more

yeah sure well I I

grew up in the church so I was a

religious Evangelical upbringing and so

I had this very religious conventional

understanding of God the guy in the sky

and so I’ve had to go through quite the

deconstruction journey of unlearning

that but with unlearning the the Divine

being the superpower outside of myself

you know I fell in love with the

Christian mystical tradition and not

only the Christian mystical tradition

but the mystical Traditions that’s at

the heart of all the religious

Traditions I believe each religion has

its esoteric and its exoteric

Expressions it has the external dogmas

the beliefs the the buildings the temple

the the church whatever it is the holy

book that’s all the external stuff and

then the religions also have this inner

way this inner way of contemplative

prayer if you’re in Christianity or

meditation within the more Eastern

religions and so this esoteric this

inner practice is what I believe all the

contemplatives share in common and that

when we get beyond the words get beyond

the dogmas get beyond the books that say

different things we are all speaking the

same language and so I want to get to

that universal truth that is at the core

of each of the religions and when we

find that universal truth I believe it’s

the most practical thing we can do

because it’s touching reality and most

of the time most of us do not

we do not live in reality we live in our

mind we live in the past we live in our

opinions we live in our political

beliefs we’re not living in reality and

so I don’t think there’s anything more

practical than waking up to God the

infinite the absolute that which is

ultimately true because it’s it’s what’s

here and right now

well it’s beautifully puts and

I guess why don’t we talk a little bit

about practices and leading to this and

I mean you laid out some of the benefits

there of what it is but let’s talk about

some of the the practices and

oh I don’t know other ways to arrive at

this I mean what makes a Mystic a Mystic

and you know what distinguishes it from

other things if it can be talked about

some of the commonalities maybe what

what are some of the differences I guess

yeah

well I I mean those are all good

questions and what makes a Mystic a

Mystic is I think just to be a human

open to what is you know I think part of

the Practical piece of mysticism is a

reality that our spirituality is

sometimes too spiritual so I want a

mystical listness mysticism because it

can get too flowery I know and mysticism

can be poetic which I love poetry in

that and I love the flowery language but

it can feel otherworldly it can be

um and then it can go even more new agey

or to woo-woo or that and that has its

own different flavor and so I’m after

what is real and what is concrete and

what is universally shared and what is

universally shared I believe is the

human journey is The Human Condition is

our suffering is the fact that we

experience great joy great highs and we

experience great lows and when we can

Embrace that the highs and the lows the

good with the bad then I think we can

share touch what’s ultimately true about

the human and inside of that what is

ultimately true about the human is the

sacred is the Divine and so you know I

come from the you know judeo-christian

tradition we’re made in the image and

likeness of God and so we have that

Divine element Within in us and that we

just simply Overlook and our

contemplative practices meditation I

teach on a you know certified meditation

teacher but primarily I teach the

practice of centering prayer which is

um a Christian based practice but just

like mindfulness comes out of Buddhism

you don’t have to be Buddhist to

practice and yoga is born out of

Hinduism you don’t have to be a Hindu to

practice yoga centering prayer is this

beautifully Christian practice that you

don’t need to be Christian to practice

and so that’s that’s the method of

meditation I work with it’s very much

about silence

um father Thomas Keating is is a

Trappist monk who popularized the method

and he would say

the universal language of God is silence

all others are just poor translations

and so contemplatives we’ve got to learn

the language of silence and it’s not

just emptiness it is emptiness but it’s

more than emptiness and less than

emptiness why not

we’ll write on silence is an interesting

thing to discuss on a uh on a spoken

word uh podcast here uh but

you know this notion of Silence it is

really interesting I know there’s some

people in my life and that I meet would

love me to be a little more silent

um but it really is profound and

especially on meditation Retreats where

there’s something called a noble silence

um it’s a way to really go deeper and

practice and our experience of the world

perception that most people don’t get a

chance to experience you know this

always-on

media culture we live in and things that

are demanding our attention and

responsibility that require

communication what I um noticed during

the noble silence Retreats is

communication doesn’t really stop if

we’re kind of in contact with someone

there’s still like an unspoken

communication either through body

language

thoughts feelings emotions

even trying to restore train one’s

conveyance of communication and I would

highly encourage everyone to try this

and it can take other forms besides just

not speaking right it can be like

turning off the internet for a couple

hours a day powering off your phone if

you’re in a position where you can do

that safely

um yeah so I mean what have you learned

from uh practices of silence and you

know or what can be said about silence

ironically of how beneficial it is

yeah great question and to point out

that irony is too good you know we can

talk about it in a couple different

angles I mean we have external silence

which we certainly seek in our

meditation practices you know we go to

quiet places quiet places in your home

quiet places in nature quiet places like

a monastery but then there’s also

interior silence this word that we use

in in the contemplative tradition

internal silence interior and it’s not

just it’s not just inner quiet of the

mind and so I think we could play with

these because you know we use external

silence and I I you know one practice I

do is my sacred hour in the morning I

start my day without the internet you

know without my phone without noise

without reading email and reading the

news it’s like protecting that sacred

time of day just like I protected at the

end of the day to start the day with

silence even though I have a little baby

boy it’s silenced with his Joy

um but it’s not it’s not filled with

with with news and tasks and other

people’s agendas and same thing with the

end of the day but when it comes to our

practices you know we go to quiet places

we could go to a monastery and spend a

month there but have internal noise so

much noise and that’s often what happens

we think we’re going to go on Retreat

and it’s going to be this beautiful time

of like peace and quiet and then what

comes up it’s our old history old trauma

old memories

um old thinking patterns and old ways of

of believing and behaving and so we’re

externally quiet sure I’m sitting on top

of a mountain but internally it’s just

the ego is Raging the monkey mind right

and so how do we get underneath that is

I think the real work of the practice of

of creating the space for the messiness

to be there while not rejecting it but

getting underneath it because the

reality is the silence is here the

silence is holding my words the silence

is holding your words the silence never

disappears it’s just is veiled

temporarily

it is and you know sound seems to emerge

from it and vanish back into silence

that’s always here the The Sound of

Silence I mean even some practitioners

talk about this I think it’s been called

the NADA sound

um listening real carefully there’s this

oh this I don’t know how to it’s this

sound that’s going on if you get really

still and quiet some people talk about

hearing this this um Sound of Silence

that’s not a sound and I wonder if some

people mistake it for tinnitus I think

the breads call it tinnitus I have to

ask some teachers more about it but if

you have anything to say about it that

would be uh wonderful as well and also

you know this the space between thoughts

and emotions informal practice too this

is something that can be paid attention

to deliberately to amplify it and like

you’re saying leave the other phenomena

rising to just unfold how it is and just

give the energy and attention to the

gaps and the spaces between thoughts

between emotions yeah beautiful

beautiful yeah you know I think I mean I

might be mistaken but I even think the

word om is is said to be the like from

the Hindu tradition like the sound of

the universe like when the silence boils

down it’s this hum it’s so much as the

hum of the like Creation in a sense and

yeah I I would say you know

the other thing with Tim that I will

just be really brief in the past I’ve

had too much coffee before meditating

and I would have the eardrum tetanus and

I had Googled that and they said if you

drink too much coffee or caffeine you

will get buzzing of of the ears and mind

and so that was something I I’d cut back

on and so that is a reality if you’re a

caffeine Drinker

um but I more importantly I think is is

pointing at that place that space

between the thoughts just like there’s a

pause between your in-breath and your

out breath you don’t pay attention to it

most of the time there is a pause

between every thought that comes by and

so how do we get that spaciousness that

object-less awareness as we call it in

in centering prayers like we’re always

aware of objects external objects the

things you see the things you can hold

on to the like smell of the air it’s

very external and so meditators we close

our eyes we turn away from the external

objects but then we find internal

objects we hear of our noise of our mind

we have our thoughts and opinions we

have a what’s for lunch after this

thoughts you know and so we have

internal objects of attention but if we

give proper space and time to our

practice that sort of spaciousness

expands and it might just be micro

seconds just one or two seconds or less

but if we can rest into that that is

what we essentially are that I believe

is as what we are by Nature not the

thoughts that are always changing

yes beautiful I would I would have to

agree

um it’s it’s something that seems more

um permanent reliable it’s almost like

this awareness that knows and observes

and experiences it can’t really be

defiled and it really can’t be purified

its only function is really to just

observe and know and realize so there’s

usually the object in what’s knowing the

object and so these awareness practices

where we can

um try it out and

it’s like in a movie theater where we’re

engrossed in the screen but we could

stand up in the movie theater at any

time turn around and look where the

projections coming from and the light

and the projector where it’s coming from

so it can almost make what’s knowing the

object the object itself try to observe

the observing and be aware of awareness

and know what is knowing notice what is

noticing and these awareness practices

can be really deep and profound and

um yeah it’s a whole class of meditating

meditative practice

yeah yeah I’m not sure if you’d be

familiar with Rupert Spira

the name yes the the he’s known for

non-dual uh yeah he’s right yes yeah

invite to vedanta and non-duality he’s a

very uh primary teacher to me

um and he is somebody that speaks the

most with the most articulateness about

the this experience of awareness just

using the most clean and objective

language I have found so he’s somebody

that speaks is close to my heart but

what you’re speaking to I the analogy I

often uses the sky I mean this is a

classic spiritual metaphor that you

talked about the inability to be defiled

like the sky is inclusive it’s open it’s

available it’s saying here I am and that

is saying here I am to the beautiful

fluffy white clouds that we like to lay

down and look at and imagine they’re

beautiful bunnies or something and then

the sky is available to the storms into

the Thunder into the lightning into the

rain and so the sky is this beautiful

analogy for what this awareness is it’s

not pushing the white fluffy clouds away

it’s letting them be letting them come

letting them go it’s not pushing the

storms away the sky is never injured by

the storms of life it’s never made more

beautiful by the clouds of life so this

inclusiveness if we can be willing and

open and respect receptive and spacious

like the sky well it is what we are it’s

that which we are trying to find it’s

that which we already are but we’ve

overlooked and so that’s that’s these

these awareness style meditations I

believe is is about opening to the sky

letting go of the clouds be them

positive or negative painful or

pleasurable

riffing on this let’s talk a little bit

about maybe how emptiness and the

formless play into this we’ve got this

openness metaphor of the sky this

vastness this inclusiveness what’s your

take on how emptiness and the formless

play into this

well I I feel

very much and there will be many people

that may disagree but that that is the

background of experience

you know that the darkness almost comes

before light emptiness comes before

somethingness

um nothingness comes before everything

else other Traditions might might say

otherwise but it’s this understanding

like we spoke of Silence before like

silence is the emptiness that holds all

sound

The Emptiness of the cup that is sitting

on my uh desk here is full of air and

only if I fill it with water or with

coffee or something else is it

temporarily changed and then when we

empty that it returns to its more

permanent State and so I think that’s

what that’s one of the elements that I

think a true mysticism is after what is

fundamental what is essential and

whatever is essential is that which

cannot be removed from it so if I take

my glass which is glass this is a mason

jar and if I throw it against the wall

it is no longer a mason jar its form is

destroyed but it will remain the glass

the glassness you know we could crush it

up into billions of pieces and the Mason

jar the cup its form would be no more

but the glass would still exist and so

when I think of formlessness I think of

what is ultimately essential when I

think of the nothingness when I think of

emptiness that’s the background that’s

the essential nature of things

but I think more exciting is

somethingness is everythingness is I

don’t want to have a thousand shards of

glass I would much rather have a mason

jar to drink out of so I love the ego in

a sense you know we could talk about our

true self our essential self and then

our ego but the world’s fun because we

have egos the world is fun because

silence becomes music and so I think

it’s this beautiful dance between the

two worlds and as a society we affirm

the ego and we forget our true nature so

as spiritual traditions we return to our

true nature but we can also play with

the ego

really good point because I I know I’ve

gotten rid of um seemingly a lot of

gross inferior conceit uh Superior

conceit and there’s even the subtle form

of conceit thinking oh I’m just as good

as this guy right you know even that’s a

kind of a subtle form of conceit because

we all have our own uniqueness to offer

that can really be unmatched by anyone

but there’s this kind of spiritual ego I

still have and still working on you know

and uh I think the the way there’s a dog

running up to me now

yeah one of the things is just uh you

know ego is not the enemy it’s it’s

something that needs to be integrated

too you know so uh yeah it’s it’s there

to get us from point A to point B and

you know um yeah like you say Enjoy Life

and but it’s when it starts running the

show is when it gets to be

it can get out of hand sometimes right

yeah yeah absolutely and I just totally

affirm that because we have get a lot of

mixed messages about the ego that like

ego is the enemy or

um

yeah you have to kill the ego but I’m of

the persuasion you don’t have to kill

anything to be spiritual the ego isn’t

even a thing that you can kill it’s just

an activity a plague of the mind so yeah

how to integrate it how to befriend it

because

um it’s there it’s a part of reality

someone uh a fellow centering prayer

practitioner said to treat it like a

puppy like an untrained puppy like I was

like I could do that I can treat my mind

as an untrained puppy hopefully tune it

up it’s a really good metaphor uh for

meditation training too I think Jack

cornfield uses this metaphor of a you

know a new puppy you you tell it to stay

stay and then it will go wander off and

you don’t need to beat the puppy you

know or anything like that you just just

come back again and again train it stay

stay and it’s interesting a dog came up

right to me and then yeah maybe when you

thought about that metaphor you know but

my synchronicity perhaps but uh yeah and

so well why don’t you talk a little bit

about the centering prayer I had

um it’s a fella You Know Rich on before

talking a little bit about it but why

don’t you talk a little bit about it in

general and then maybe how you work with

people with this and then any other

practices and work you do with other

people

um and uh maybe groups you have this

type of thing sure sure yeah well the

speaks to centering prayer it’s really

an updated form of of the contemplative

prayer tradition within the Christian

church and again you don’t have to be

Christian to practice it because it’s

ultimately a practice about consenting

is the word we use consent means to say

yes to celebrate the divine presence in

action within us to say that the sacred

the absolute the all in all the spirit

Yahweh whatever framework you have the

Divine is present and Alive within us

and acting in our favor that God’s

beingness that we are borrowing our

being from God and we are unfolding as

God’s being on this planet and so

centering prayer is a simple way of

saying yes to that and a simple

20-minute practice I mean it’s you know

traditional 20 minutes so many

meditation practices you do it for 20

minutes

um you could do it for five minutes if

you need but it’s very much it’s a

letting go practice it’s a way of using

either your breath or more commonly what

we call a sacred word to release

thoughts and thoughts in our tradition

mean emotions it means thinking patterns

it means Visions for the future it means

if God shows up and starts Whispering

into your mind that’s a thought you let

that go and if it’s actually from the

sacred then you can trust that God will

leave a voicemail is something we would

say but we’re actually letting go of

everything to move into that objectless

awareness recognizing that God speaks in

silence as silence

we don’t go to silence to have a word

delivered to us God’s voice is silence

that’s really beautiful in a way to put

it I I think what’s coming to mind now

is because the heavy emphasis of the

word in Christianity right uh that seems

to be the primary focus for most

Christians as far as I know maybe I’m

getting that wrong when it’s turned to

contemplative practice that I kind of

only hear about with Christian monastics

for the most part other than the kind of

movement you you’re involved in now I

mean well of course monasticism and the

Christian tradition has been around a

really long time this contemporary

contemplative practice is is somewhat

newer however like you’re saying what I

understand it is built on older

practices and and once you go into some

of the Christian Mystics that inspire

you you mentioned father Thomas Keating

are there any others you would like to

mention as well yeah yeah and I’ll just

share briefly because you said it so

well but just to like reframe it like

centering prayer is born out of

Christian monastic tradition and that’s

why it’s what we call an updated

practice because the like there’s this

beautiful meditation tradition in the

church that nobody knows about because

it was just monks and nuns and so this

practice is about

giving it to ordinary people like myself

and like you and likely like our

listeners

um but for Christian Mystics who the

list is long some people will very much

like Thomas Keating Thomas Merton is one

of the more contemporary teachers who

died in the 60s very much into the

Interfaith dialogue in conversation with

tick not Han

um a very favorite is Anthony Demello

he’s from India and he beautifully

weaves Western and Eastern Consciousness

because he’s he’s from India and he was

also a psychotherapist and and a

Christian priest and so he is a

psychology the spirituality has the East

and the West Anthony Demello his book

his book is titled awareness Pearls of

reality

awareness that’s the name of the book

that is just beautiful and then there’s

other old school folks like the German

Mystic Meister Eckhart who is said to be

the most eastern uh Buddhist like

Christian Mystic to exist is Meister

Eckhart which by the way is is uh

akartoli’s uh name who totally kind of

borrowed that Eckhart phrase from so

do you know of uh Jacob Bohm yes yes uh

I don’t know if he’s more controversial

or not but I was I I’ve heard of him

years ago and I’ve only read like a a

work or so but it seems really profound

stuff yes and it’s somebody I know very

little about but the folks that love

Jacob love Jacob

can’t say much more than that

well right on your work with folks do

you do things online do you have things

in the real world you mentioned an event

before the show would you like to share

that with people any other work you have

going on anything else you want to draw

people’s attention to with what you do

how people can get in touch with you

thanks Josh yeah the the easiest place

to go to is our website closer than

breath.com which is a phrase borrowed

from father Thomas Keating that God

is closer than breath that the true

source of peace the true source of Joy

the true source of Love is closer than

breath we think it’s out there in the

world we think it’s in making money or

getting a new job or getting in a new

relationship but when we can relax that

desire

and go to our essential nature that

formlessness we find that God is closer

than breath and so that’s where that

name came out of and you know we’re an

online community we have weekly

meditation groups that bring in guests

contemplative teachers every month we

have a contemplation day which is a

Saturday 90-minute teach-in in community

space for practice and teaching and then

host a number of online kind of

large-scale either courses or Summits

the big one coming up this September is

the contemplative prayer Summit and this

is really fun because it’s an inner

spiritual event so we have teachers from

the Christian contemple of tradition

which is really Our Roots and then we

have students of tiknat Han we have

Rupert Spire who I mentioned before is

actually our keynote speaker which I’m

like was elated that I even got him

which is amazing so Rupert Spira and and

uh Sufi teacher as well so it is really

this like wide approach to prayer

contemplative prayer prayer without Word

words because we think of prayer like

you said as wordiness and so how do we

get beyond the words and tap into the

sacred and so that contemplative prayer

Summit and that’s the.com as well people

can visit that if they’re interested

um that’s that’s a really exciting event

that’s just around the bend

oh beautiful Keith I really appreciate

you taking the time today to speak with

me and my audience

I wish everyone out there the the best

in their contemplative practices

and may all beings realize Awakening and

be free thanks for listening check out

integrating