For this month’s open-audience, open-discussion “Ask Us Anything” — continuing discussions about meditation and related topics — Denny and I expand from last month’s chat on “Hīnayāna” as a superlative and more on Theravada and Mahayana in general. We also get into:
- (Pre-show mention of the Rohitassa Sutta):
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapindika‘s monastery. Then Rohitassa, the son of a deva, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta’s Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he stood to one side. As he was standing there he said to the Blessed One: “Is it possible, lord, by traveling, to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away or reappear?”
“I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear.”
“It is amazing, lord, and awesome, how well that has been said by the Blessed One: ‘I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear.’ Once I was a seer named Rohitassa, a student of Bhoja, a powerful sky-walker. My speed was as fast as that of a strong archer — well-trained, a practiced hand, a practiced sharp-shooter — shooting a light arrow across the shadow of a palm tree. My stride stretched as far as the east sea is from the west. To me, endowed with such speed, such a stride, there came the desire: ‘I will go traveling to the end of the cosmos.’ I — with a one-hundred year life, a one-hundred year span — spent one hundred years traveling — apart from the time spent on eating, drinking, chewing & tasting, urinating & defecating, and sleeping to fight off weariness — but without reaching the end of the cosmos I died along the way. So it is amazing, lord, and awesome, how well that has been said by the Blessed One: ‘I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear.'”
[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] “I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos.” It’s not to be reached by traveling, the end of the cosmos — regardless. And it’s not without reaching the end of the cosmos that there is release from suffering & stress. So, truly, the wise one, an expert with regard to the cosmos, a knower of the end of the cosmos, having fulfilled the holy life, calmed, knowing the cosmos’ end, doesn’t long for this cosmos or for any other.
- Buddhism in America in reference to Buddhism in Asia
- Distinctions between belief/disbelief, information, reference points, data, facts, histories, etc.
- The “Pizza Effect“
- Ehipassiko – Investigate & See for Yourself
- Confusion and bullheadedness surrounding “Vipassana” as technique; a way of learning; as a concept; etc
- Bodhisattva vow of “save all beings” better translated as “guiding others”
- Identity politics and xenophobia
- Parable of the Burning House in the Lotus Sutra where (the three) “yana” (or vehicles) is said to derive from
- The first and second Buddhist councils
- Upali and Ānanda at first council
- Various Buddhist positions on female monastics
- Anagarikas in the Thai forest tradition
- 10 points of controversy
- Storing salt in a horn.
- Eating after midday.
- Eating once and then going again to a village for alms.
- Holding the Uposatha Ceremony with monks dwelling in the same locality.
- Carrying out official acts when the assembly was incomplete.
- Following a certain practice because it was done by one’s tutor or teacher.
- Eating sour milk after one had his midday meal.
- Consuming strong drink before it had been fermented.
- Using a rug which was not the proper size.
- Using gold and silver.
- Denny’s continuing and upcoming On.Zoom.us endeavor of Mindful Exercise + Mindful Meditation at dennykmiu.com/fellowship Saturday mornings
Or listen via Insight Timer (app or website)
The raw unedited YouTube transcription of this podcast:
good morning good afternoon good evening everyone uh welcome to the uh josh and denny show
the what we call the dumb and dumber of uh buddhi dharma
buddha buddha anyway just a joke um so so uh every month we get together and
we seem to get better and better at it huh josh well that’s the plan right yes
so anyway um uh we have a we have a division of labor um here in
the sense that uh josh you know writes down um uh questions um viewpoints that are controversial and
and then we try to discuss them so so um so for this show anyway or this
this this one anyway right yes yes yes yes yes that’s true so so um what is that one thing that you
think of all the things that you you showed me um that you thought would be a possible
possibility for discussion what is that one thing that you think would be kind of most controversial
well i probably don’t want to start with that one don’t want to set fire immediately um but the the
stuff that we kind of um um some of the stuff we talked about well we can also continue
from the last time about uh hinayana and for me being a westerner
you know we can do a quick recap what we said last time and then go further into that if you’d like um
for me it just didn’t um you know well a small vehicle didn’t necessarily mean that was a like
a derogatory term but then when you say it’s like a um a lesser or inferior and maybe you know then
but you know i mean if we’re going to be inclusive and diversified even that um it is okay
too because you know every way i don’t need yeah it’s weird because
it’s like i know uh danny wants uh defend defend and stuff
it’s just um i don’t know what this to say but i’m gonna let denny take the reigns
here because he’s more well spoken and knowledgeable about this than i um yeah yeah well let me you know this
is like a plate of spaghetti you got to get that get to the you know the one end of the spaghetti and just pull it and then the
rest will just like become one strand so so i think first of all i think there are a lot that we can talk about some of
which we kind of continue from last time but but as we talked about i think that that one
strand of spaghetti is is what i would call localization
that is that is why are there so many different strands of buddhism and why is there so much discussions
some of them constructed from some of them not so constructive among them and and then ultimately you
know what is the future of buddhism in the western world in particular in america and so i think that one thing
that kind of connects everything is is localization in other words there’s there’s there’s buddhism and
then there’s sort of localized buddhism and always you know buddha we all know who buddha is and we hope that what when we say
buddhism is the teaching of buddha but then when that teaching goes to a particular you know get get immersed
into a particular culture it becomes something else or and then and then when the
and then and then the people who are of that community when they look out they think that that
is buddhism and when they see some other strands and you know it causes discomfort and so
so ultimately probably not in this show because this we just don’t have enough time but ultimately we’re going to talk
about the future of buddhism in america in other words
um what should it be how would it become and so the question is that well it would only be
something that is uh of a it has to have its own life it
has to be something that belongs to our culture as opposed to something that belongs to
someone of someone else’s culture and then we sort of inherent their sort of historical development right
and so so ultimately we’re going to be talking about the future of buddhism in america and talk about
why is it that it’s important to to for buddhism to localize because once we
kind of get hold of that then the whole discussions about tarabada versus mahayana the tibetan versus the chinese
the japanese versus the thai these are all localized issue great point
yeah and um you know that’s that’s that and that’s one benefit of america for sure is like the melting pot
there’s not a lot of um ancient entrenched culture here that’s uh has to defend itself so much
so it’s a really interesting um i guess like laboratory almost you know
absolutely absolutely for me i have the challenging part is bringing bringing it to uh these
teachings to kind of like social settings and and groups and culture and stuff where you know being more of an
individual which that kind of thing fits into the west too for good and bad um that you know
just focusing on the i guess that’s why i was drawn originally to the original buddhist teachings because
just the example of to exemplify the behavior and conduct and just
profound truth and wisdom and just uh i mean every um you know the
the perfectly developed human being um uh in all the teachings
but then again that’s just the and then exactly he wasn’t even um was beyond human or something other
than human as well but you know um and then all the stuff he went through just individually
so it’s kind of like rectifying that um kind of individual or maybe personal
path within how bringing that to a larger scale of people who aren’t
that dedicated uh in the practice but still see value and want to be involved um so that’s that’s definitely something
to explore and that’s to be a great topic for the future yeah yeah i think kind of putting the punchline
you know first which is which is that one of the most profound um aspect of buddhist teaching and one
of the most disturbing is that there is no one path
there is only one goal but there is no one path so everybody is entitled to them to
their own path and so what’s what’s central to buddhist teaching i believe that it’s something like this
i forgot what is this or this where it stands for a word a poly or
or a sanskrit word called uh i believe it’s called epis episcopal
and and growing up in in asia growing up in in small town macau and later on in hong
kong we have a lot of street vendors so you know back then we don’t we don’t really have like big supermarket you know you
go you go to the the market and you have all these uh what we call hawkers and they’re just
like they’re selling fruits and underwears or whatnot and and one of the one of the the
the the thing that they would say is that yeah they yell at the top of the throat and basically come look come come choose and you know
come pick what you like and and that’s that’s you know that’s hey pasico that’s what you know one time
i believed there was a suture and i think you mentioned it where people were asking buddha the historical
buddha these you know these really deep questions about his teaching versus
other people’s teaching and all that and and he just kind of you know put up his hand and he says you
know hey pascal which means you know come and see come and see and the other i think the other
qualities of the dharma that just reminds me is uh i don’t think i’m getting all of them but the one is it’s it’s immediate here
and now right yeah it doesn’t have to wait you don’t have to wait to get the benefits from an afterlife from it and it’s
verifiable here and it’s um it’s verifiable by the wise uh you know the wise can back it up
there’s a few other things that i’m blanking on now but there’s a a list of you know um
what makes it yeah so so in in that sense that i think eh passage is
really in a different way is that it really reflects the discipline of modern science
in that when you study science whether you you know study biology or chemistry or even
engineering you have to start with some assumption right you have to you have there’s something you have to accept
and so you can’t just like start from a clean sheet that cleans your paper and hoping that you get somewhere so as
a as a buddhist student buddhism student you have to have some assumption and you have to accept
that that there’s certain truth to the assumption but at the same time you have to accept that it’s not the whole truth right well and
you there’s no belief required either you’re not asked to believe something you have to check well you have to you
have to believe you don’t have to believe their entirety you have but you have to start somewhere you cannot just come in
and says i don’t believe in nothing and then and then hoping that you get somewhere right now see that this is a really good point to bring up because
uh when i heard about this one teaching that um to instead of getting enmeshed in belief
or disbelief because a lot of times that will turn people off because it takes so much energy to um hold on to
a belief or defend a belief in the same way with a disbelief so the alternative to this that i find is wiser
is treating everything is just information okay it’s it’s like light as a feather so if some
other information comes along to discredit that then you can let go of the information we already have yes
and then if something comes along to add to that we can just take another feather and add that yes yes yes yes yes no no i think i think
that’s an excellent point and and and and this comes back to the distinction between data versus fact
yes they’re a little bit different you know one might think that they’re the same but but before we get there and so
the idea of buddhist teaching is that you have to start somewhere and you have to accept some data some
historical data right you have to accept that and then and then it because it’s just like science science has to accept you if you
want to you know einstein has to accept newton first before he gets a point as a starting
point yeah as a reference point if i don’t accept you know basic particle dynamics i’m never going to go
you know to the next step of studying something else right you have to accept that even if you’re trying to disprove it too
you have to have a reference point yeah yeah absolutely so you have to have an anchor and so that’s in buddhist teaching just
saying but but then you don’t stop there you know this organized religion
to me has the problem that you believe and then you stop that’s it all right and so if if we accept that
kind of uh practice we wouldn’t be having this conversation well because we don’t accept that we
you know we we accept the idea that you got to start somewhere that’s what we call assumption then the question is that okay now now i
gotta i gotta explore okay i now give me a chance to explore and then and then now give me a chance
once i explore and understand then i have to come up with my own enhancement right i got to say you know
this is work it works at 98 of the time but there’s some inconsistency in there and rather than arguing about it let me
explore right and and buddhism has this great capacity to allow you to explore
and then ultimately you have to verify you have to come back and say hey i got there this is what i got it’s not to say that what i started was
wrong it’s just that it was incomplete right yes so yeah yeah and that’s about admitting our faults too
most people don’t want to do that and most people don’t like questions either if you start questioning different religions
well the problem is is if you don’t make the fights yeah yes no i absolutely absolutely you cannot you
cannot equate questions with questioning yes that’s a very good distinction thank
you yes right and so um anyway um so so we want to talk about uh
buddhism in america we want to talk about how the the what we what we what we believe
would be happening would be that um buddhism has had you know over half a
century of history in america but for the most part what we have seen even today most of
what we see is what i would call immigrant buddhism they were brought here by the immigrants
just like any other religion what is christianity of islam is that they were brought here by
immigrant this is their belief system before they came to the country they brought it here
right and and and it has you know in the initial part it has
tremendous vitality because it’s serving a well-defined
population of consumers but the question is that we still have
to go beyond that it’s like hamburger coming from germany i think i don’t know you know then it became something else
you know fish and chip came from another country and it became something else right well there’s the pizza effect the interjection real quick a pizza effect
where it came supposedly came from italy it got modified here and then it goes back to italy with the
american changes so it even changes the origination point of it french french cuisine yeah well french
cuisine yeah yeah french cuisine is completely what we would call california christine
you know has completely changed the french um uh yeah you know it yeah you can go on and on so
so so i want to make the distinction i want to understand i what i want to do is is all our
discussion has to be based on data right we have to be able to say hey
you know is historical data okay and that’s another example yeah well that’s that it’s actually more
challenging than it seems because a lot of times they say um history was written by the victors
so a lot of times we don’t get to hear the historical viewpoint especially in such a warring uh world um
you know we don’t really get to hear the viewpoint so much of the people who were defeated in war
in battles and whatnot so you know their version of history isn’t
really wasn’t really allowed i mean it was destroyed a lot of times um so that that’s well you don’t have to look that
far right you don’t have to look that far you really don’t have to look that far you
know there’s so much to be learned about the the the culture and the history of the
native americans and so much to be learned you know from from the slaves you know with that you
don’t have to look that far right so i think i think hopefully
we can agree on some set of historical data and then and then understanding that we
accept each other’s fact well even if we don’t accept it we have to
reference it to be able to study it and to uh you know analyze it dissect it
add to it uh draw wisdom from it that’s a big thing because if we don’t if we don’t learn
from the past and we don’t incorporate the knowledge into living breathing action
uh actionable wisdom then it’s just book knowledge for not much reason so yeah so if you were
someone like like josh and i you know who who lives in in america and we’re interested in
buddhist teaching and and we see this i mean as a consumer we’re completely sensory overload right
and what it is is because um we have different traits of buddhism
coming in this country because we have so many different immigrants so so the most obvious one the most popular one perhaps
right now from my my perspective would be something like uh vipassana with pashna which comes from
countries like sri lanka and miramar and thailand right and so we understood
that that’s this is which is probably the most most common uh
practice in in especially in the coast you know the two coasts and so so we understand tarabada
so we call that the talavada buddhism and of course we i would think in terms of of visibility
the second most popular would be the zen buddhism yes but beyond beyond that real quick and
positive um is mindfulness it’s become like um a phenomenon
it’s not really associated with the the time the thing that’s in popular culture that’s called mindfulness
really isn’t uh has much association with buddhism some of it does but you know you’ve got this
stereotypical very attractive blonde woman in the lotus posture you know with a
mudras on her hands and looking just serene and peaceful and blissed out and you
know um that that can definitely uh be the case but that’s not the entire you know picture and then some people
even call it mick mindfulness you know like uh mcdonald’s and it’s become a you know million dollar billion dollar
industry oh yeah yeah you have all these apps you have all these apps that that are really yeah yeah so let’s let’s
say that let’s save that for another day which is which is you know can you really can you really study
um buddhism by focusing mainly what i would call
materialistic perspective you know what you know we’ll save it for another day we say about
nowadays which is which is the difficulty it i i remember writing an article when i i
talk about message zero you know as like the the membrane you know you know osmosis system you know and
it’s right in the middle you have the kind of western as western uh
approach of studying buddhism and you have the eastern approaches of the buddhism neither one of them is is is ideal and he’s like sitting in the
middle and he’s trying to bring them together we save it for another day so let’s continue and say um the reason why it’s important to talk
about history is because when you when you think about all these different ways that people
have stepped in studying buddhism in the united states starting with with poshna and then and
then mindfulness which in some way they’re closer to each other both of which more or less come from um
uh the southeast asia right because with partisan the mindfulness is is really uh what we call satya patanya
which is the mindfulness of the form the four foundations of microphone we’ll come back and talk about that so so at least we kind of put a hand around
something that we call tarawata practice which are mainly and you can tell from the uniform that you know it’s
easy to tell that that that they have a particular kind of uniform which are the people who which are the
uh the monastics who practice in sri lanka and miramar and thailand
and all that interestingly uh they they don’t in in vietnam vietnam is
that one country that doesn’t actually practice uh the theravada
however um so so that’s one and the other one of course in and then and then we talk about the
japanese zen buddhism and then you know how did that get involved how did that get developed yeah that would be in laos and cambodia
too right uh yes oh absolutely yeah allows and can okay so so don’t care much about them
though that’s that’s i don’t hear much about laos and kimberley they also um they’re less developed they’re not as
as uh tourist friendly so you know less people go there and they they’re a much smaller country
actually in terms of percentage that the highest percentage of buddhist
uh you know per per capita is is actually laos it’s almost 98 percent whereas in thais
it’s not as high as you think yeah even bhutan
uh bhutan return though yeah but anyway yeah wait britain is not so then we we
we talk about the um the zen buddhism in japan now then we have kind of a a
very close uh cousin to that which is the sun meditation in korea okay okay so so we got that and
then and then probably in terms of visibility to a typical american buddhist
uh student would be the tibetan buddhism and then finally uh
just just our you know um population wise then the most common one
would be which would be called the mahayana buddhism okay the problem is is that
they’re not they’re not they’re not polar opposite the name is confusing because they’re not polar opposite to each other so for
example mahayana maha means um the great or the large the
big jana means the vehicle and so so people say oh mahayanan that’s a big vehicle
but when we say mahayana what we really meant is chinese that’s what we meant it’s the chinese
buddhism right whereas we say to tibetan buddhism it’s very obvious that we’re
we’re focusing on a a geo geography but in reality the tibetan
buddhism is is part of mahayana okay the problem is that when we then go to
the the south and we say that’s taravara that’s not the opposite of bahaniana
tarawa just means elders those who are who are who are very well
developed in in their into in the learning then when we talk about
wipashina which is different translations and the one i like is just contemplation is
is to look inward to to get insightful into into your mind right and so then people get confused
with the name with poshna as it represents a way of learning
versus with pashna as a concept so then the question is that oh we’re
passionate that’s only a partial meditation because outside of that you can’t talk about with pashna
right which is wrong because everything is very passionate in fact one would argue that the only unique contribution
from the historical buddha was with pashna so all the other sects or the other
approach is just another ways of achieving reproduction which is that which is the other side of the coin
of samada well now we’re getting you know okay that’s okay yeah we can get that yeah okay so that then so i’m just
saying i’m i’m just pleading with our audience you know the complexity what we’re talking about so that’s why
yeah that’s great so then then when you get to mindfulness you say oh okay we we study mindfulness so so
that’s that’s the thing to do is then put them no no no no mindfulness is is is as basic to
buddhism as anything else okay so so further muddy the waters with consciousness the
word consciousness and awareness you know consciousness awareness you know it’s relation to mind yeah now then
again when you go to zen buddhism you know where does the word zen zen is comes from the word chang
in chinese which comes which actually was the abbreviation of chana you know back in the old days
it’s called china and then that comes from the sanskrit word called janna and
and the the the meaning of jhanam just means sentimentation now
yeah that’s well that’s the thing because i’ve heard definitions of like samata you know is
is leads to cultivation of samadhi which is another thing because it’s really hard to talk about samadhi
but then you talk yeah the settling i’ve also heard it like um well for sama to practice like a
one-pointedness uh a unification of mind a gathering of
mind um you know um coming together yeah this
like eight jhanas are absorption states according to some so it means there’s no
meditator no meditative object it’s just total absorption into the object
and they lead to these different um uh absorption states right um but anyway there’s so
much here so i want to yeah yeah but the the point i’m trying to make is that go back real quick yeah the point i’m
trying to make is that is that these none of them are unique to the practice none of them are unique
to the practice you know so so so you know you you you can’t just take
a madonna hamburger and says double patty as if they own that concept other people
could have double patty okay you know so you have to brand it differently the unfortunate thing is
that we we most the way that buddhism are brand now is that their brand according to a
concept that is actually uniform and universal and so then
typically we we we think that oh vapor that has to do with a partial that’s that the way is you practice with
partial number here is the only way that you practice repulsion the way that you practice mindfulness
well if you go somewhere else then you know anyway so there’s a problem with that there’s
another problem is that then we go to the level when we start to talk about talabada mahayana tibetan
and japanese and buddhism we have to understand that what makes them unique what makes each
and one of them unique and distinct has to do with the culture yes right and
has nothing to do with the superiority of the technique it’s
just a cultural thing so so i wanna i wanna uh so so one within that little
circle what we call the the the what do you say that the storm in the teapot
or the eye of the hurricane the storm no no i’m talking about the storm of the teapot you know the with the little teapot where you people
it is the argument is is between tarabata and mahayana
and and this is sort of a one-way argument because those people who practice tarawatta they they don’t
understand what the argument is all about because that’s you know they just practice okay this is what they do and it’s it’s
the people who who who practice mahayana when they look at tarabada they actually give it a
different name historically they give a different name go hana yana
hana yana right again you know going back to the hamburger it’s like you know you and i eat meat if we do and also these people
are trying to make vegetarian burger and they’re having all these discussions and then we say what
look just leave me alone okay i don’t need to know all this but the problem is that those guys who
who want to push vegetarian burgers they start to make all these distinctions and in the same way the people who
practice the quote unquote tarawata buddhism they’re in the you know they they’re completely happy with what they’re doing
they don’t name they don’t name names they don’t they don’t use you know for them is not necessary
whereas the problem we see now is that a lot of people who practice a mahayana
actually what i would call the chinese buddhism they look at everybody else and they say
oh that’s we call those hana yana small vehicle right now what do you mean
by names all these names can you give them some examples well um in chinese if you if you meet
actually master doesn’t do that i notice that he does it a little bit but just just because that’s what people
understand so when he when he talks about because he himself practiced both
yes he himself tackled practice both he practiced the the the tarot water technique which
in the evening and night right he practiced the technique because because that’s um you can associate that
with arahan which is which is really the idea is that um you’re you’re seeking uh liberation
or emancipation of your own you’re trying to change yourself release yourself off
your own suffering relieve yourself of the hindrances okay so so that’s what taravata teaching is
all about okay so we call that the arahant path whereas the mahayana
the chinese buddhism they focus on what we call the the bodhisattva
approach and where you’re supposed to uh focus on helping others helping
others to to uh uh be liberated and being emancipated right
and i love shifu’s approach because you know the importance of that is
how can we best help other people if we’re not have the highest degree of
liberation possible that we can have you know what i mean well that exactly exactly trying to help people from a
lower standpoint which can still be effective but not as effective as if we’re
you know completely as liberated as we can be you know but that explains that explains why the argument is is a one-way argument
because those who practice the televata buddhism they understand what they’re doing
they understand that that they see themselves as the the lifeguard in a big swimming pool
and it’s very important for them to perfect their own um you know skills you know if they
don’t know how to swim chances are they’re not going to be a good lifesaver yes and so they’re very much focused on that
but in their scripture they talk about you know going from an arahant to a buddhist
so so the teaching of the ko unko mahayana is actually embedded in the televider
teaching but they see that as a logical and beneficial progression let’s
take let’s learn how to swim then we go and teach someone else whereas
a lot of people have this misconceptions over the mahayana
side that says well no actually what you want to do is to be a buddhist offer
and they ignore the part that you know actually if you don’t know how to swim
you’re not going to be a good lifesaver they know that part right which is very sad which is very sad and that’s that’s that’s a big
part of what master is trying to do is trying to break down this wall and say
you know like anything else you got you got it you gotta you gotta you gotta you gotta start here and then
in fact one of the one of the discussions yes yeah one of the discussion i have um
when the last time i was with the the prison dharma group was that they
were talking about the the full vow one of which was you know safe well-being
remember that the translation safe all-being and and i i said you know actually um
most of the japanese teaching are translations of chinese okay so they think the
chinese word thing they they translate in japanese and then when it comes to america it’s translated from japanese but half
more than half of which are chinese anyway so in fact we are translating it from directly from chinese okay
and so the chinese language is a very difficult language to translate
especially if you’re trying to translate word by word because the chinese
single characters have no unique meaning it’s how you’re conjugating in relation
and context yeah it’s how you conjugate with another word that you give it a little bit more position
and so i said you know the word save doesn’t mean save it means to guide
i love that so much better than save i mean don’t have to be a messiah figure you know yeah we’re
we’re here to guide others in fact we can’t guy unless we ask
and how can we you know how can we even save anybody that would just step on their journey and not you know and not give them the
chance to learn what they need to learn from there correct whatever’s happening in their experience correct that’s a very so
coming back so so you know if you if again you know we’re we’re we’re getting away from from the details of discussions
yeah but but i think i think the the reason so so so coming back to your question is
that how how how how how is that argument well it it’s not it’s to me it’s not
so much an argument as it is in ignorance okay as in ignorance so so i’ve been
called orientals you know i don’t reject that
some people you know long time ago when i first came to the united stand that
word and so in order to really understand the word oriental
i have to kind of put it in context of occidental yes i was just getting ready to say that yep
and i don’t call you accidental why should you call me a rental because by calling me at oriental you’re being
ignorant you’re ignorant of my culture but see that’s the thing you know it’s it’s
weird how that stuff gets going um that’s why i always don’t i don’t really i mean people could call me honky or
cracker or whatever they want i really don’t care what they call me i just i just like to respect
just have to know what people would like to be referred to as called so i can yes because it opens up doors people will
say something and they don’t mean it derogatorily right it’s just it’s somehow it just got
installed in the culture and it’s their way of shutting it just like for them to shut
you know like just shut down them their their mind they’re just like so so what i’m saying is that the people
who the chinese buddhists who practice what they call mahayana practice who then
call everybody else especially those in in southeast china who practice
what we now call the talavata they’re no different than a white person calling me
oriental and that is really their choice of shutting themselves off
of really understanding what other people do so what they do is that this is it mahayana is the great vehicle how
great is that you know so it’s it’s it’s complete and this is all we need to know
and everybody else is we call them hana yana hanayan a small vehicle now now
before i explain now by the way um we don’t use that anymore because in
1950 there was actually a world congress of of all the other buddhists now remember in 1950 the
chinese um were well they are still today but they were they were under the control of
the communists and so there were there were basically no participation from
the chinese buddhists in fact chinese buddha didn’t even exist anymore they were completely destroyed for a long
time real quick um that it’s fear the unknown it’s the fear of the unknown yeah so it
protects them from fearfully unknown it’s it’s identity it’s it’s you know we call this identity politics
yes you know it’s identity it’s it’s really not about you it’s about them you know it’s really they for them to point a finger
you fall them appointing three of them appointing themselves yeah that’s right they’re they’re afraid of what they don’t know
so so in 1950 there was a world congress where all the buddhists from all the sacks got together and they said no from
today on we’re not going to use the word hanayana because it’s it’s a insult
it’s an insult and from now on we’re going to say talabada because that’s the word that’s a that’s a that’s a poly word
that means elders okay and there’s a great context because just the word in itself a definition to
a westerner doesn’t really mean much but when it’s embedded into a culture and the intent of
how they say it and view it then it makes sense that it would be kind of derogatory so yeah so so again you know so so for me
when i see a a a a chinese buddhist monk or none that referred to the taliban teaching as
as hanayana the small vehicle that says something about that person not about
that that says that person that is really he doesn’t have the world view he probably doesn’t have the not the
modern understanding of buddhism chances are you know that he’s he’s not he’s not a good teacher for me
that’s that’s my point okay so so before i get into televada and how how is that distinct from the no now now
let me just use the two words which is chinese buddhism and started to soften
the the southeast asia buddhism the terravada versus the mahayana so when i see when i use those words just say
those are the two distinctions but you know the the yana
and then we gotta throw in or we don’t have to but there’s vajrayana which is um you know it’s not quite as
popular and that’s what now is there a distinction for them
they consider themselves tantric buddhism too yeah yeah yeah but that that’s another
let’s simplify yeah no don’t but they they don’t have any problem the tibetans don’t have any
problem with you calling them mahayana they they believe it’s kind of under that umbrella
yeah in fact in fact they in you know um yeah that’s not a problem it’s just that within that
they want to distinguish themselves from the chinese buddhism then you know they they get a little more detail so the
reason for the word yana actually came from the lotus sutra
and so there was a there was a section in there that talks about and all it’s a story it’s a just a analogy
and the story is that there is this old man uh who’s the head of the clan and he has
these huge complex and in there you know lives his uh his descendants
okay and they’re having so much fun inside and but the house is on fire
so he’s like jumping up and down jumping up and down and trying to get them to come out he says oh look the house is on
fire let’s get out let’s get out and and you know all his his clan climb people are saying no what fool we’re having fun
here this is great we don’t want to get out and so the story was that he then
brought three vehicles he brought three vehicles there’s a
small vehicle pulled by deer there is a middle vehicle pulled by
horse and then there’s a large vehicle pulled by oxen and then he put in there
you know all kinds of treasures and then he trying to entice them to come out and eventually
you know they come out and then they then you know you ship them off out of danger and and the reason for that analogy is is
that in the in the lotus sutra the burning house is our universe and
and and we’re suffering in the universe and it’s time to get out and so you have to have different
vehicle and what we call the small vehicle
is the is the in some way is the tarawata teaching where you’re focusing on your own
salvation your own liberation your own emancipation then you get to another vehicle another
vehicle with the booty sapphire and so forth and so on and so that that’s where it came from that’s where it came
from the problem again is that the what we call the small vehicle which should really be called theravada
they encompasses all three vehicles but they do it in a more logical you
know progressive way it’s like going to college it’s like you know starting from the elementary school graduate then go somewhere you know it’s
like that whereas the the the other teaching says no we can pick and choose and then you know
now from now on we’re going to call ourselves the the large vehicle the the great vehicle
now there is a historical context to all that there’s actually a historical context of
that so what we what we call tharavada buddhism is is is is almost unchanged
the teaching is almost unchanged from the day of the buddha and so everybody knows that that buddha
was born above 2500 2600 years ago and he had many many many many disciples
and and the suture will tell you that out of that he has like 2 500
disciples that he considered you know his his his his um his uh elite
okay it’s it’s actually 2505. huh because it’s interesting 2500 years
ago too or you know yeah anyway the five is because after he got enlightened under the booty tree he
went and looked for his five bodyguards and so there was five then then he eventually met someone so
also actually what’s interesting is all of his students came from somewhere else so he you know he would be like this
wanderer you know with the with the answer and then he meet someone he convinced someone else that that that
you know his path is the right path and then that person they convinced turned out to be a guru
and so he is so convinced of his teaching that buddha’s teaching that not only did he came over he brought all his
students to come over and so you can actually dissect that and so so like after the five he get another
you know another uh another 100 then he got another hit he met three brothers and together it
was like two thousand you know like there was a history of how that working so finally he got like and so we just shortened the 2500
students these are their their their unique you know elites okay it’s interesting you call
them bodyguards i’ve always heard them as uh his the people he practice asceticism with
and well both are true both are true so what happened is that um he he one night he decided that
uh after after his son was born actually his son later became his disciple yes
right okay yeah so after after his son was born he decided it was time for him to
to renunciate okay the name itself is interesting the meaning but we don’t have we won’t go into that yeah
that’s a write that down okay so he he decided that he would he would renunciate so he left his
his household and when he left his household his king was trying to find him and you know
finally he convinced his father that he’s not coming back and so his father sent five
bodyguards huh to follow him to protect him and so those five then he eventually
practiced the cynicism with him oh i didn’t i don’t know how i missed that before
and then and then later on he decided to know that he needs and ultimately he needs to the
middle path you know is it that the living the the life of the prince this one side and then living the life
of aesthetic is another and then he decides don’t forget the um he trained under two teachers that
taught him the kind of johnny states too yeah he wanted to teach them first but they were
already uh dead after his enlightenment right yeah there’s that one person on the road that
he kind of met and freaked out um after his enlightenment too so yeah yeah yeah so there’s a whole history so
so the five students like i call them bodyguards you know because that’s that’s that’s that’s the story but anyway he he
had all these students and and they ultimately are the elders okay they’re they’re the elders and um so when he
passed away he uh he became when he when he achieved uh nirvana um so then all the students
throw up their hands oh you know paranabana yeah yeah yeah and so so then then he’s his older
student oh yeah decided that yeah his older student says no wait a minute
you know this is not right we got it we got to sit down and and you know have a powwow and so this is this is the word is is um
the word is uh uh uh the gathering okay and so we call that the council
and so to understand the history the understanding history of buddhism you you have to start with
quote council so the the first council was held either
30 or 90 days after the death of buddha because they have to to for two reasons one is
that it’s still a rainy season and they have to call everybody back because what happened is that those once
they once they once the student become learned then buddha would send them away
okay so they when the news of buddha’s death got to their ears you know they all come
back so they have to wait for everyone to come back okay and then they they also have to wait for the end of the rain season
okay and so anyway um so this first council was essentially 30 or 90 days
after buddha’s death and and 500 of the elders got together and there was
actually you know they got together and they they uh they uh and they decided that they what they do
is they’re simple they said and they only do two three things two things
uh one is what was buddha’s teaching okay
and then the other one is that what are the rules yes yeah what are the rules and so they
actually the primary purpose was for the rules the primary purpose wasn’t even for the teaching
that’s right there’s got to controversy of what the rule should be then right yeah so they they formulate the rules
and so there’s like 200 uh precepts for a a male monastics and
there’s you know whatever number for the female monastics yeah and so so they actually spent the
most time to say you know these are the rules these are the these are the the the the the
the preceptor we have to follow yeah the ritual for official rules then they then they got around says okay
now now we’re gonna have to focus on on master’s teaching and so now keep in
mind that everything was oral this is 2600 years old there were no written language
the first written wasn’t until until like 800 years after maybe 600
years after after buddha’s death okay so this is all all now somebody would say well if it’s oral
how could it be accurate and actually um some some historians some some people who actually believe that oral is
more accurate than written yes and the whole teachings were designed lyrically and with rep repetitions just for that
very purpose of memorizing and then you’ve got you know this famous story of uh ananda that
who just got in had to be enlightened before he joined the first council correct correct and he was the one he was he was
the he was the attendant so so he was and he when he and he was interestingly you know he was born on
the day that buddha achieved enlightenment oh wow he was he was
buddha’s uh he was buddha’s cousin and attendant yep yeah and and um and
then he became his attendant because he’s he he has his photographic memory yes
and him and he actually the story was that he made a pact with with buddha and says you know uh i have
to be present in every lecture you give and if i’m not then you have to come back and tell me
that again so i could record it okay so that’s why our our youtube our
youtube channel because i record okay does not record except that yeah the the thing with this
struck me with the story with ananda though that’s so meaningful and uh this type of uh material is something
like he you know he once said the buddha you know i i bet you know friendship spiritual friendship is you know maybe
half of the path and and the in the buddha sets up well don’t say that spiritual friendship is the entirety of
the path it’s something it’s a little paraphrase there yeah yeah there’s a lot of really
great stories and that really that really struck me how important that that that he that the importance they
put on uh you know spiritual friendship you know yeah it’s just as important as a having a good teacher
so yeah so so this is called the first council and we’re probably can we get to the second council before
time runs out for on us today but but it’s important understand that that that that that the purpose of the council was
number one to to formulate and institutionalize
the rules the conduct okay and now this is this can these count early councils can
tie into the early schools of buddhism too and most of them aren’t around anymore
but i mean that could be yes absolutely absolutely so so this is the first this is the first council and and so let
me continue with the first council so so it was about the rules it was about the precepts
and then secondary to that is that it was about buddha’s teaching and and and uh and and and
and the way it was done was that ananda would would recite buddha’s teaching
yeah he would recite his teaching and and that’s the difference by the way
that’s the difference between dhamma and suta so dhamma has different meanings and one of that
is what buddha says is dharma and what’s written down and agreed on is the suta okay so you
can argue that one is the other but the other doesn’t have to be very yes yeah so so it’s very important
so suta is a uh what what not only what ananda recite but what everybody agree on
so so the rules are specific is that you know ananda would recite and then other
people would say i didn’t hear that and then they would say oh then that doesn’t belong there
okay it would have it had to be in uh anonymous it cannot be it’s like nine you know five 499 of them says they
heard it but then one guy said no i didn’t hear very strange and it’s it’s there’s a lot
of credibility because they are all fully enlightened being they’re not fully enlightened but they’re all they’re all they are present and then
also but who is the who nana didn’t do the vinaya who i forget the guy that uh
yeah we can look that up there’s a name there’s a yeah another very important you know yeah yeah so so out of the 500 there’s
there’s you know you can list the names of the 10 most important disciples and it’s actually one of them yeah he’s
actually very very he’s the one so so then that’s how it’s written down i mean not being done that’s how it’s
agreed on and then it and then it just became a oral uh uh tradition you know it became an oral
tradition right well i mean it continued it solidified and continued the world and for the most part one would have
they were reciting some of his teachings before this you know yeah so one would argue that the the the
the the practice of the television practice of today um is not that different from what was
agreed on 2600 years ago yes there’s a there’s an unbroken line
yeah there’s an unbroken line there’s unbroken and that in fact can determine yes yeah
in fact in fact uh there’s an interesting side note um you know um
in thai um you don’t they don’t have female
monastics okay now in in mahayana in general you
know of course we have female monastics but in thailand they don’t and the argument that they make is that
the male monastics is has unbroken chain all the way back to buddha whereas the
female one was broken because out of the 500 elders
there were no female that’s right yes and so they made the argument that it was it was broken so therefore we cannot have
female monastics this is another speaking of controversial stuff this is another one uh i think beaku and naglio
you know there’s there’s monastics on both sides of this um issue i guess you could call it um yeah
yeah yeah so but you do see uh female monastics in thailand and they’re called the right the white cloth
they actually um they they were actually uh they actually nazi in
they actually relax okay and so but in in but once they get back into in fact
there was a controversy when the last king of tai um passed away they refused attendance
from the quote female monastics because they said that they’re not real huh yeah that was a huge controversy the
the white gown thing i used in thai forest tradition that i’ve heard out of a by geary podcast is i think they have like an
anagarika which i’m not exactly sure i think that means that’s the first step before you
become a no a novice i’m not sure exactly i have to look that up but i remember the name anagarika i have to
look that up but anyway yeah that’s another um this is there’s so much to what you just brought up about the female
monastic yeah i think so i’ll quickly so so that’s the first council that’s the beginning
of the terraria teaching one will argue that it’s more or less unchanged and it was
unbroken okay and and then um so you mentioned a little bit about
all the council subsequent to that which is then the the start of the
breaking off of the different sex so today we’re just going to talk about this the second one
the second one actually um was only about um uh
300 years something like that um after the death of buddha so this is
still 300 years before the before christ okay so so this is called the second council
so so you imagine 300 years how much you know like this country is is a little bit over 300 years and
how much has you know has been different right from the day that it was found so you can you can imagine you can
imagine um you know what 300 years mean and what buddhism
uh how buddhism has changed and so they so history the history was that there
was a huge argument there was a huge argument between two separate sects
two separate sex so which is the beginning now of the mahayana
versus the large vehicle versus a small vehicle okay was there a core to that argument yes
okay yeah yeah so so there was a huge argument and the argument was that there was a group there was a group of
practitioners from one part of the country and there was another group of precision in another country and then finally they they had a
discrim disagreement and uh you can look this up but it’s called the ten points of dissension
okay okay ten points is that things like um you’re not supposed to have meal
after noon that’s right and one was on salt i remember some of these now
i want i i’m i’m impressed that you know that i am so impressed that you know the gold and
silver thing too wasn’t it yeah so i i’ll talk about the one that that is more obvious
but actually less important at the moment because things like you know when when is how does it work you know like
what does noon mean you know oh can you can you have you know like if if i come to
if i come to um uh st louis and i have a meal before noon and then i hop on to
a flight and then you know somewhere else can i have it again right things like that and so they come up with like either the
two or the three finger rule okay which is that you get a stick if
the sun is on top it casts a shadow and it cannot be longer than two fingers huh
okay so there’s another rule we’ll use that to determine east too the the shadow with sticks yeah so there’s another rule which is
which is um you know uh you when you when you sit someplace you know how big is that space
that you’re supposed to so that comes with that now the tradition of whenever whenever a
monastic sits down he has to have a piece of cloth and he sits on that you know so they
have to have a certain amount of space or not yeah they yeah they have to have a certain amount of space and that’s to
to for what for what they’re like energy field or no i have no idea i have no idea i’m just telling you the
data okay i have no idea um things like can you now actually the most important one um that
prompted everything was about money and so so in in the traditional
teaching of buddha is that they have to renunciate which means that there’s a very very you
know like rule that says you cannot touch money in fact before you become a a monk
you know there’s you have to be like that that novice monk and the novice monk um has 10 precepts i
actually took that precept because there’s a way that you could do that for for a week and so i actually was among a novice
monk for a week and hour that the very last one is that you can’t touch money
well that and then you can’t also be in debt either right some of the uh nothing nothing before you even join you
can’t because some people were doing that to get out of debt you know what i mean yeah but the reason for there’s a reason for that
the reason for that is that is that all back in back in uh back in those days all the people who
have the resources to pursue to spiritual path are very rich people and so
99.9 percent of buddhist students come from very rich
family remember the story about how someone wants to borrow or buy a piece of land and he went to
the prince and then you know eventually the prince says well i don’t need money you know and then he said but you know if you can
cover it with gold you can as much as you can that’s yours right i mean look at how much money these guys have but so so but it’s it’s the
opposite kind of in more modern times where people would get so much in debt
and people would be coming after them for that debt and then they would they would escape under the protection of a monastery
correct yeah but they come later they’ll come later later so so the initial idea of renunciation
is that they’re you know if they’re dealing buddha is dealing with students who
are of huge you know amazing wealth and so he has to kind of say well you
have to give up your wealth and so they they actually get so the word bitchu
be true yeah be cool means beggar
yeah a mindicant yes yes yeah it means bigger now what’s interesting is that if you
were a beggar if you were a beggar and you you go to you know buddha and you want to be his
disciple he will not accept you interesting dichotomy because you know
if you’re a beggar and you just say i want to study buddhism i want to be a householder and muda would say no you can’t be a householder without
taking responsibility you know for yourself you can’t be you know
no sorry whereas if you are a rich person he turned you into a beggar wow it’s equal to playing field
there that’s yeah that’s crazy over my radar yep yeah so so the point is the point is that that
rule was put in um so you know all his students have to renounce
okay now what happened is that now because you know there’s a way to get around that because
they have they have attendance and so the attendance would be the one to actually collect
money so so for example when i travel with master one time we were put in this place really beautiful
essentially a villa you know we live in this place and um where one part is the court
living quarter and the other part is is the is the dharma hall and so after we finished the practice it was
like seven days something like that the student living someplace else and so we went back and mastered you know he
they put him in his suite you know there’s this hallway and i made a mistake of standing by the hallway just
having a conversation and all of a sudden i see in front of me all the students were lining up
and i said what’s going on and so what they think they thought that i was their attendant and my job was to
accept the money wow and i said no no no no that’s that’s not
master style you want to give him money give him money so so anyway back to the second council
the whole point of the second council was that there was a disagreement because one group were very very true
to the rigid teaching which is that they don’t touch money okay the second group says no no no
that’s not right you know there’s the money is money money has no you know it’s not so what they do is
that they they set up this this bowl this is this pot this pan
with water and some turtle or something for people to throw money in there
and then they said you know i do we didn’t accept money you know to turtles yeah the total was there
right and then they took the money at the end so so this was a huge huge uh problem so
they had this second council just to kind of having this powwow but all of that they they come up with
the ten point the rule for the ten point and essentially it says that look the televota
would agree to this ten points you don’t agree you’re not one of us okay okay but top of the list had to
do with salt yeah in the wild yeah it’s it’s it’s how much times have changed and stuff
but do you know why no tell me yes please so so so the the point is that uh
monastics are not supposed to carry salt because well you’re not supposed to store food overnight too
ah see it wasn’t because it wasn’t because salt was precious it was because because what happened is
that is that the rule because they are beggars okay so they they they essentially
eat two meals a day breakfast which is you know whatever fruits and whatever and then they the main meal is that
and none so so they would actually go out and they do the the the omron right you know they would
they would get the offering and the rule was that first of all they have to pick a random
direction they can’t go back to the same place every time yeah yes has to be random get dependent
on that yeah second rule is that they can only knock on five houses
and they knock but they cannot go in and then it’s up to the inhabitants to
give them food or not well sometimes they’re on the line the road though right well nowadays yeah nowadays okay but
this is also real two quick points this overall though this is between like the spirit
of uh buddhist teaching and then the um letter of it right because there’s stories in the sutas
where you know such and such did this so then a new uh rule was established because of what
happened right so you know it’s it’s all about do we want to stick i mean how do we stick to the letter i mean
what are the advantages of doing that and when is what is really in the true spirit you know correct and then also
one of the you know but having that conversation means that you’re not a talmada
that’s right yeah because they’re strict that you know that there’s the thing about preserving lineages uh
well again just go back to also picking and choosing what’s working no but that’s that’s the difference between that’s the
difference between data and fact yeah because just compare side by side the televata the way it was practiced in
southeast asia they’re very strict on money but they’re not strict and vegetarian
yeah yeah it’s very it’s very fascinating that buddha never never taught us to be vegetarian because how
can you be vegetarian when you rely on someone else’s for food well you would you would insult somebody
right if you didn’t accept that unless there is one exception though if you knew that the animal was
uh slaughtered just for you killed just for you right so so they come up with five rules that
um they can’t they can’t slaughter just for you that’s why the random direction becomes important
they cannot be waiting for you oh i see that’s a good point yeah all right and then they cannot swallow
for you you cannot be present when the meat was slaughtered even if they don’t do it for you you cannot be
within earshot okay and then there’s two more which is that
if you if the roadkill you can eat it okay or if two
the animals were fighting they would die and they’re done you can go get the scrap that’s okay
well then because that’s nature right yeah that’s nature it’s basically like that but but my point is that i mean this is
a difference in data in fact because once i host it as fact it says no we we can’t touch money
but we’re quite flexible when it comes to eating meat the other side the chinese food is like no no you
cannot eat meat there’s no way to get around that okay but we can touch money that’s the
with with the money what about crypto coming up you know are you going to touch a computer that’s been involved in a crypto
transaction or is holding crypto on the car a hard drive you know yeah but you know like you were saying none
of that none of that none of that lends itself to anything exactly so yeah so the salt the salt has to do
with this the salt has to do with this so so five houses and it doesn’t matter if you get
offering or not it’s only five houses so so worst case scenario
if you went through five houses you had not nothing to eat well too bad okay you can’t go to
another five and if you if you then the opposite is is what if you go to
one house and you get all the food that you need no you still have to visit for more uh so you they want to interact with the
community so yeah yeah it’s a two-way street it’s a two-way street it’s it’s for your own because it’s actually the two uh parame
actually if you think about it one was one was the renunciation perimeter and the other one was
generosity pyramiding yes right it’s the two now then the problem comes well
you know i got lucky today got lots of food i didn’t violate the rule i stayed within five houses but i do have a lot
of food i can’t eat it all and you know tomorrow i might not get any in fact yesterday i didn’t get any
couldn’t i just preserve it and the rule says no and to make sure that you cannot
preserve you cannot carry salt yep crazy crazy crazy well yeah i mean
what are you going to do you got to eat five bowls of food [Laughter]
oh man my refrigerator is broken so i’m gonna have to eat five bowls of fruit i
need some time for that good thing you have some salt i guess yeah okay why don’t we call it uh
we continue then yeah it was great that’s great all right denny yeah thank you for the
questions thank you well yeah it was a pleasure and i don’t think so next next time uh uh at the end of november uh we’ll pick a
time um we’ll continue with um the historical development of the different sects
starting again with tarabada we finish that then we come back to the chinese
buddhism the mahayana then maybe that we branch off into
the japanese zen buddhism how that cut branch off you know from that and we didn’t even
touch uh we didn’t even touch the tibetan stuff really and then we’ve got to come back to the tibet yeah yeah we’ve got to come back to the
tibetan and and then and then finally when we’re done you know we’ll go on to
the next thing plus all yeah all the other potential topics we raised today so yeah yeah there’s lots more there’s a
lot more there’s a lot more okay one public announcement um if everything goes well
our saturday class our english saturday class which is eight o’clock on saturday morning i know in
the past josh has talked about that i i i hesitant to give you more
information because i knew we were in transition but in any case um we are using zoom
everybody knows zoom by now um zoom just started with a platform called on zoom which allows us to
really open up our saturday morning class to to public and ultimately allowing us to receive
donation for maba and you know massager or whatever other purpose that we want to
do so it’s a great way of really reaching out so i’m hoping to get it all done so we
can launch this saturday if not it will be launched the week after um and the
url for that is danny kmu
d-e-n-n-n-y-k-m-i-u dot com backslash fellowship
okay that is not active today that only points to our youtube playlist but hopefully once
you get going it will point to the on zoom page where you can buy tickets it’s
free and it will give you all the information to log in and all the good stuff okay so danny we’re
gonna you’re gonna transition uh the current url you’re using now to that one no the current url uh would work um
the rest of the time it won’t work on saturday the one that we call dannykd.new dannykmu.com
backslash zoom that won’t work okay because they they will send you a unique url
okay so use the slash fellowship on saturday yeah backslash fellowship that would be
the saturday okay all right okay thank you josh
thank you
Integrating Presence 
2 thoughts on “American Buddhism | (10/27/2020 — “Ask Us Anything” With Denny K Miu)”